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[Pasquale1234]

Ugh.
 
I hope most of that is head canon that somehow found it's way into the wiki, and not stuff that was revealed in one of those comics. If that's the official canon it is very badly written. It's obvious it was written by someone who never served in the military. There is so much wrong with that I don't know even know where to start. Rising to Staff NCO while still in recruit training?! 
 
That isn't to say that writers with civilian backgrounds can't write believable military characters or scenarios...Tom Clancy had a very good career doing exactly that, and Stephen Crane's Red Badge of Courage was so realistic that people often mistook him for a Civil War veteran. (he was born 6 years after the conflict) But at least do some research to make it sound legit.
 
Although to be fair the Mass Effect series in general tends to fail when it delves into military fiction.

Ashley's ultra-fast promotion to LCdr is also pretty bizarre.

I personally don't object to the Alliance having different rules than our current military organizations, but I do wish they'd make it a little more reasonable and believable than it is.

[Valmar]

Do you happen to have a video of that conversation?

 

Found it. Ah, youtube, you glorious bastard.

 

 

 

This scene always gets me.

[Vazgen]

Found it. Ah, youtube, you glorious bastard.

 

This scene always gets me.

Thanks!

Edit: Damn, that's awesome! Now I'm starting to get conflicted about letting Kaidan back on the ship! 

[God]

Ugh.

 

I hope most of that is head canon that somehow found it's way into the wiki, and not stuff that was revealed in one of those comics. If that's the official canon it is very badly written. It's obvious it was written by someone who never served in the military. There is so much wrong with that I don't know even know where to start. Rising to Staff NCO while still in recruit training?! 

 

That isn't to say that writers with civilian backgrounds can't write believable military characters or fiction...Tom Clancy had a very good career doing exactly that, and Stephen Crane's Red Badge of Courage was so realistic that people often mistook him for a Civil War veteran. (he was born 6 years after the conflict) But at least do some research to make it sound legit.

 

Although to be fair the Mass Effect series in general tends to fail when it delves into military fiction. 

 

Ugh...

 

It's real. Sadly enough. I think it's in a codex entry somewhere.

 

But yeah, it's reeeally bad.

 

When I went to Basic training, I was an E-2, and after completing OSUT (Basic + AIT for certain MOS'; mine was 16 weeks, 10 for Basic and 6 for AIT), I was promoted to E-3 upon arrival to my first unit. Almost immediately, I was reclassed into MI branch, and sent to Ft. Huachuca for another 16 weeks. Upon completion of that, I was promoted to E-4 Specialist (the highest junior enlisted rank), and that's the rank I held for the next 3 years. Then I made E-5, and held that for the next 2 years before I commissioned. And I'm still no where near Ashley in terms of rank or rate of promotion.

[God]

I'm really tempted to save Ashley just to kill her on the Citadel. I especially like her dying speech if you didn't try to kiss up to her the entire time. I like watching her die, I'm a bad person. As it stands though that would mean I'd have to kill Kaidan and I'd never feel right about doing that. I always save the one with the salarian squad which is always Kaidan because why would I send a xenophobe that thinks of aliens like animals to go protect and order around a bunch of aliens? They deserve someone who actually cares about their lives, like Kiadan who has always proven to me to be far more open-minded and reasonable about things. Ashley was always hotheaded and driven too strongly by her personal bias and emotions.

 

That being said its always a bit a struggle for me to let Kaidan back on the Normandy. I really like the scene you get with Joker if you refuse Kaidan. That scene alone makes me hesitate on my choice.

 

That's how I feel about Ashley. In-universe, the only reason that is semi-rational is so that you can screw her. Out-of-universe, I do it to troll her.

[God]

Found it. Ah, youtube, you glorious bastard.

 

 

 

This scene always gets me.

 

Yeah, I do actually like this scene, as it implies that the VS wasn't so easily let off the hook. I wish you could be a little bit more scathing and dismissive of them, but oh well. 

[themikefest]

I'm really tempted to save Ashley just to kill her on the Citadel. I especially like her dying speech if you didn't try to kiss up to her the entire time. I like watching her die, I'm a bad person. As it stands though that would mean I'd have to kill Kaidan and I'd never feel right about doing that. I always save the one with the salarian squad which is always Kaidan because why would I send a xenophobe that thinks of aliens like animals to go protect and order around a bunch of aliens? They deserve someone who actually cares about their lives, like Kiadan who has always proven to me to be far more open-minded and reasonable about things. Ashley was always hotheaded and driven too strongly by her personal bias and emotions.

 

That being said its always a bit a struggle for me to let Kaidan back on the Normandy. I really like the scene you get with Joker if you refuse Kaidan. That scene alone makes me hesitate on my choice.

If you choose to kill her on the Citadel, don't talk to her at all after Mars and make sure to wear Cerbeus armor. She will have this to say to Shepard

http://youtu.be/ljXiscn5hjE?t=2m10s

[Valmar]

If you choose to kill her on the Citadel, don't talk to her at all after Mars and make sure to wear Cerbeus armor. She will have this to say to Shepard

http://youtu.be/ljXiscn5hjE?t=2m10s

 

Yes, I know. That's the scene I was talking about. Though I don't see what Cerberus armor has to do with it. She doesn't have any line specifically about what armor you're wearing, does she?

[themikefest]

Yes, I know. That's the scene I was talking about. Though I don't see what Cerberus armor has to do with it. She doesn't have any line specifically about what armor you're wearing, does she?

She says nothing about wearing the armor. It just makes the scene more interesting. 

[Vazgen]

She says nothing about wearing the armor. It just makes the scene more interesting. 

Spoiler

[Han Shot First]

Ugh...

 

It's real. Sadly enough. I think it's in a codex entry somewhere.

 

But yeah, it's reeeally bad.

 

When I went to Basic training, I was an E-2, and after completing OSUT (Basic + AIT for certain MOS'; mine was 16 weeks, 10 for Basic and 6 for AIT), I was promoted to E-3 upon arrival to my first unit. Almost immediately, I was reclassed into MI branch, and sent to Ft. Huachuca for another 16 weeks. Upon completion of that, I was promoted to E-4 Specialist (the highest junior enlisted rank), and that's the rank I held for the next 3 years. Then I made E-5, and held that for the next 2 years before I commissioned. And I'm still no where near Ashley in terms of rank or rate of promotion.

 

I'm not sure why that is such a common thing in Sci Fi. I get that most people probably aren't too familiar with how real world militaries function, but it wouldn't take more than a quick google search to show that ending up in a NCO/Staff NCO billet while still in recruit training, is bit like going from an inexperienced new hire in a corporate mail room to a mid-level manager in that same company within the span of a few weeks. The leap from Gunnery Chief to LCDR is similarly far-fetched.

 

I'll just head canon the wiki/codex info as referring to positions she held only within her recruit training platoon, and not that she emerged from recruit training as an actual combat unit's platoon guide. Given that Ashley was also platoon guide with the 212 on Eden Prime however, I think the writers meant the latter.

[themikefest]

I knew a few people that went from E-1 to E-4 within 14-15 months. This was back in the 80"s, so it might be different today.

[God]

I'm not sure why that is such a common thing in Sci Fi. I get that most people probably aren't too familiar with how real world militaries function, but it wouldn't take more than a quick google search to show that ending up in a NCO/Staff NCO billet while still in recruit training, is bit like going from an inexperienced new hire in a corporate mail room to a mid-level manager in that same company within the span of a few weeks. The leap from Gunnery Chief to LCDR is similarly far-fetched.

 

I'll just head canon the wiki/codex info as referring to positions she held only within her recruit training platoon, and not that she emerged from recruit training as an actual combat unit's platoon guide. Given that Ashley was also platoon guide with the 212 on Eden Prime however, I think the writers meant the latter.

 

Indeed. My own promotion was very rapid (I still have one of the fastest promotion rate records for junior enlisted at Huachuca, has my name up on a board somewhere on a wall at the Sierra Vista PX), but still constrained to junior enlisted. There were plenty of College grads who enlisted at my rank, so it wasn't really anything spectacular. It took me 3 years to move up from Specialist to Sergeant, whereas, as you say, she's going from a basic trainee (a drone) to a mid-level NCO (platoon sergeant by the sound of it).

[Jorji Costava]

I'm not sure why that is such a common thing in Sci Fi. I get that most people probably aren't too familiar with how real world militaries function, but it wouldn't take more than a quick google search to show that ending up in a NCO/Staff NCO billet while still in recruit training, is bit like going from an inexperienced new hire in a corporate mail room to a mid-level manager in that same company within the span of a few weeks. The leap from Gunnery Chief to LCDR is similarly far-fetched.

 

When it comes to ME3, I've already said almost everything I'd want to say about it, but this is relevant, so: I think the writers had the perfect opportunity to use the two-year time gap between ME1 and ME2 to fill in these blanks. Maybe Ashley (or Kaidan) was able to work her way through the ranks quickly because during that two year period, she won some key victories in a couple of engagements with Cerberus. This would not only explain her jump through the ranks, but also establish her credibility as a capable soldier apart from Shepard and give her a reason to be resentful and distrustful of Cerberus that even your alien squadmates would have: More than them, she would have seen up close and personal what they're capable of. Anyways, that seems like it would have been the best way to fill in multiple story gaps IMO.

[God]

When it comes to ME3, I've already said almost everything I'd want to say about it, but this is relevant, so: I think the writers had the perfect opportunity to use the two-year time gap between ME1 and ME2 to fill in these blanks. Maybe Ashley (or Kaidan) was able to work her way through the ranks quickly because during that two year period, she won some key victories in a couple of engagements with Cerberus. This would not only explain her jump through the ranks, but also establish her credibility as a capable soldier apart from Shepard and give her a reason to be resentful and distrustful of Cerberus that even your alien squadmates would have: More than them, she would have seen up close and personal what they're capable of. Anyways, that seems like it would have been the best way to fill in multiple story gaps IMO.

 

That would only go so far.

 

Killing enemies does not translate to officer material. Especially such a massive rank up over such a short time period (1 year from mid-level staff NCO to a field-grade officer. That just does not happen, unless you are a very senior civilian specialist working in a very specialized military project, as nearly happened with the Manhattan Project, where Dr. Oppenheimer was almost given a temporary direct commission to Lieutenant Colonel.) 

 

And as a Soldier, I question from the get go her credibility as one. As well, once again, credibility as a soldier does not equal credibility as an officer.

 

Honestly, the only thing I can think of that got Ashley that far that fast is nepotism/cronyism; she used her association with Shepard to ride his coat-tails to get where she is.

 

And when Ashley implies that you're accusing her as such in one of the convo's in the hospital, I wish there was an option to confirm that you feel that way about her promotion to Spectre.

 

My view is that after Shepard died, Anderson/Udina gave her a pity promotion and a chance to revive her career and/or gain a useful contact within the alliance command chain. She used her association with Shepard to get herself moved forward, and, sans a few missions here and there, never really did anything to earn her rank. Same with her Spectrehood, though that's somewhat offset by Udina wanting a pawn as well as being a political consolation bone being thrown to humanity over the loss of Earth.

 

It's something that's happening all over science fiction too. In Halo, a universe that is traditionally very militarily accurate (they use United States military procedure and rank structure for the most part) is starting to fall into this. You have the character of Sarah Palmer (IMO, Ashley Williams' analogue character in that universe, whom I also utterly disdain) going from a junior enlisted Marine (albeit a qualified and experienced ODST) to a Spartan Commander, with notional rank over even the legendary Spartan II's and III's. Granted, this has been mollified slightly with the revelation that she isn't an actual Naval Commander, and her rank isn't actually one either, but more of a title. On the other hand, the Master Chief was offered a direct commission to a flag officer, though this is much more justified given who and what the Chief is, with more than 40 years of military experience and leadership under his belt, and having reached a point where even 5 star flag officers are deferring to his judgement and word prior to his offer of commissioning.

 

Point is, you don't go from a nobody with a black-listed name and no experience to a field-grade officer who is made into a spectre in 3 years unless you have somebody seriously pulling strings for you.

[Valmar]

While I tend to agree that Ashley used her connection with The Shepard to promote her status, its also perhaps worth remembering that Ashley apparently did have a lot of decent credentials prior to the Normandy. Its possible that she deserved a higher promotion than what she had but the stigma of her last name kept her from ever achieving higher ranks. According to her word and what we see in the comics there is a ridiculous amount of hate and stigma towards her because of her family's history... for whatever strange reason.

[CosmicGnosis]

Wow, some of you really hate Ashley. Damn. Well, I've always liked both Kaidan and Ashley. It's kind of hard to choose which one I like to keep in my canon, but I think it's probably Ashley. Yeah. I think she's an interesting character with a very realistic perspective that I think a lot of humans would have if we discovered other sapient species. I also like her character arc. She starts off as a black-listed soldier who is suspicious of alien species, to a Spectre who is far more aware of the galactic community. I also like learning about her family. 

 

Does Kaidan have a character arc? I'm actually not sure right now.... I can't think of what it might be. That's a little disturbing.

[Valmar]

Wow, some of you really hate Ashley. Damn. Well, I've always liked both Kaidan and Ashley. It's kind of hard to choose which one I like to keep in my canon, but I think it's probably Ashley. Yeah. I think she's an interesting character with a very realistic perspective that I think a lot of humans would have if we discovered other sapient species. I also like her character arc. She starts off as a black-listed soldier who is suspicious of alien species, to a Spectre who is far more aware of the galactic community. I also like learning about her family. 

 

Does Kaidan have a character arc? I'm actually not sure right now.... I can't think of what it might be. That's a little disturbing.

 

Personally I felt both of their personalities were realistic. Though if anything Ashley was slightly less realistic due to her religious views. Though that's just my optimistic bias speaking, I'm sure.

 

While it is true that Ashley has an arc where she goes from suspicious to being more aware of the galactic community the reason Kaidan didn't have such an arc is because he frankly didn't need it. He didn't start out as being a suspicious xenophobe and was already pretty level-headed in regards to the galactic community. Ashley had some "growing up" to do, Kaidan didn't. Though if Ashley didn't have such views in the first game people would had probably called her bland and non-interesting.

 

On a slightly related note I find it strange, given Ashley's views on aliens and humanity in general, that she was so judgmental towards Shepard in ME2. It wouldn't be a stretch, imo, to picture her joining Cerberus. They're very pro-human and while they're not inherently anti-alien they don't exactly trust them either. Though why either of them ave such loyal adoration for the Alliance, which has done them both horribly, is beyond me.

[JasonShepard]

On a slightly related note I find it strange, given Ashley's views on aliens and humanity in general, that she was so judgmental towards Shepard in ME2. It wouldn't be a stretch, imo, to picture her joining Cerberus. They're very pro-human and while they're not inherently anti-alien they don't exactly trust them either. Though why either of them ave such loyal adoration for the Alliance, which has done them both horribly, is beyond me.

 

Cerberus *is* a terrorist organisation. Political assassinations, bombings, engineered eezo 'accidents', crazy experiments that get entire colonies wiped out...

 

Whereas Ash is a very by-the-book soldier - partly because she had to be perfect to get past the family stigma. I feel that joining up with Cerberus would be out of character on that front.

 

Also, Cerberus being willing to work with aliens felt like something of a Godzilla Threshold in ME2 - they only did it because of the threat posed by the Collectors (and probably because the Illusive Man hoped that he could get many of the most dangerous aliens in the galaxy killed on a suicide mission). The only other occasion I can think of would be working with Liara and Feron to get get Shepard's body back - which, again, was extreme circumstances and felt rather like mutual goals rather than properly working together.

 

The rest of the time, Cerberus felt rather anti-alien to me. Then again, maybe that's just Council and Alliance propaganda talking

[God]

Cerberus *is* a terrorist organisation. Political assassinations, bombings, engineered eezo 'accidents', crazy experiments that get entire colonies wiped out...

 

Whereas Ash is a very by-the-book soldier - partly because she had to be perfect to get past the family stigma. I feel that joining up with Cerberus would be out of character on that front.

 

Also, Cerberus being willing to work with aliens felt like something of a Godzilla Threshold in ME2 - they only did it because of the threat posed by the Collectors (and probably because the Illusive Man hoped that he could get many of the most dangerous aliens in the galaxy killed on a suicide mission). The only other occasion I can think of would be working with Liara and Feron to get get Shepard's body back - which, again, was extreme circumstances and felt rather like mutual goals rather than properly working together.

 

The rest of the time, Cerberus felt rather anti-alien to me. Then again, maybe that's just Council and Alliance propaganda talking

 

Cerberus is *not* a terrorist organization. By your definition, most sovereign states today would be a terrorist organization. On the other side, the context of most of these actions do not fit a terrorist M.O. Yes, terrorists might try assassination of high profile targets, or bombing buildings. In the case of Cerberus however, they're not very public about it. In fact, not public at all. That runs counter to a terrorist agenda. They want to be seen, to be noticed, and to have their goals out in the open. They do this to monger fear (which is probably the largest single definition of terrorism I can give: fear mongering through violence). Cerberus does not. They don't want to generate fear and uncertainty like terrorists do. They want to operate in the dark, perform experiments in the dark, conduct actions in the dark. The only reason the alliance knows they exist is because they caught a guy once who mentioned that he was hired by a group called Cerberus. After a quick visit to the SB, the alliance would probably learn everything that shows that Cerberus is a 'threat', despite carrying out a lot of actions that work in their favor. Engineered accidents and experimentation are not a part of terrorism either. By nature, these require secrecy, and terrorism wants to be loud about their actions and goals.

 

I can agree on this one, though I can also ask where that 'by-the-book' attitude was when we were stealing the Normandy, or telling Admiral Mikhailovich where to **** himself, or any other time Shepard was doing something that went against established regulations.

 

And I completely feel that your assessment of Cerberus is incorrect. They aren't anti-alien. Yeah, I do think that's the drivel from the council and alliance talking. And yeah, when it comes to Cerberus, there's a lot of political realism involved with their philosophy. Which, no matter how idealistic (in the political philosophical sense), you have to realize is more or less the norm of states. It's no different in Mass Effect. People help each other because it's the best way to look out for themselves. It doesn't mean hating the other guy or disliking or distrusting him (though that element is usually necessary for practical concerns). It's a philosophy of 'hey, you watch my back, and I'll watch yours' while also keeping an open for any knives that guy has that might end up in said back. As for how this relates to Cerberus, look at how they are more of a counter to alien groups that might humanity at a disadvantage. A lot of aliens want to hold humanity down and force us to wait patiently. I'm sorry, but I don't feel like we should have to be held back from achieving our destiny. And that sentiment certainly didn't seem to apply to the Asari. Or the Salarians. Or the Turians. So it really feels more like they're trying to keep us from getting on their level. Also, on the history of Cerberus and working with aliens, TIM himself told Saren to prepare the Turians for what's coming (I'll give you a hint, he wasn't talking about humanities rising). Keep in mind that this was well before Saren was indoctrinated. 

[God]

I knew a few people that went from E-1 to E-4 within 14-15 months. This was back in the 80"s, so it might be different today.

 

As I was saying, that's believable because it's junior enlisted ranks. I went from E-2 to E-4 in less than a year, and while being only 18 years old (I was an E-2 when I enlisted). 

 

It seems impressive, but then again, you can enlist as an E-4 if you have a degree. In most cases, those people tend to go on to be officers through OCS. They can theoretically receive their commission in less than 6 months in the military (E-4 to O-1). However, they still have to play by the standard rules of commissioning and promotions afterwards. You still have to wait a good year and a fifteen months to two years before you get promoted to O-2 (it's longer in the Navy), and around the same amount of time to get promoted to (O-3). I commissioned in December of 2011, and I was promoted to O-3 back in August. Then again, I'm in a more... fast tracked branch, being military intelligence. We tend to promote very quickly through the junior ranks. Unfortunately, we tend to stall out after hitting the point where we no longer can get promoted by time-in-grade with competence to boost you. We aren't as promotable as the combat arms branches. We actually have to get a lot of experience, proof of capability, and just plain luck when it comes to open slots. In all likelihood, Captain is where I'm going to end my career. At my current station, I'd need at least 6-8 years of experience as a Captain to promote. I'm out in a year (I'll still be deployed when I hit 6 month terminal leave), and I want to talk advantage of my remaining youth. I only just turned 25 back in December. And I will likely spend what time I have left just bullshitting. I'm done with the Army. Might look into the Navy, but I want to get some travel and backpacking done first.

 

And back on topic, Ashley went through a prodigious rank up. So prodigious, that it had to have been externally engineered.

[God]

While I tend to agree that Ashley used her connection with The Shepard to promote her status, its also perhaps worth remembering that Ashley apparently did have a lot of decent credentials prior to the Normandy. Its possible that she deserved a higher promotion than what she had but the stigma of her last name kept her from ever achieving higher ranks. According to her word and what we see in the comics there is a ridiculous amount of hate and stigma towards her because of her family's history... for whatever strange reason.

 

I understand the idea behind this, but refer to some of my old posts where I examine why she isn't actually as qualified as you might think.

 

As well, deserving a promotion does not mean deserving a commission after promotions, and then having more promotions tacked on afterwards. At absolute best, she'd get a commission and hold that rank for the remainder of the series.

 

And she is not spectre material, though that one is easier explained in that she wasn't actually given the job based on her skills and ideology (She also lacks the 'get the job done' mentality) so much as pity for the humans from the council and Udina needing a pawn that he could manipulate. I really wish the game could let you question Ashley's ability to do the job better. It starts to go down that route, then backtracks.

[KaiserShep]

Cerberus *is* a terrorist organisation. Political assassinations, bombings, engineered eezo 'accidents', crazy experiments that get entire colonies wiped out...

 

Whereas Ash is a very by-the-book soldier - partly because she had to be perfect to get past the family stigma. I feel that joining up with Cerberus would be out of character on that front.

 

Also, Cerberus being willing to work with aliens felt like something of a Godzilla Threshold in ME2 - they only did it because of the threat posed by the Collectors (and probably because the Illusive Man hoped that he could get many of the most dangerous aliens in the galaxy killed on a suicide mission). The only other occasion I can think of would be working with Liara and Feron to get get Shepard's body back - which, again, was extreme circumstances and felt rather like mutual goals rather than properly working together.

 

The rest of the time, Cerberus felt rather anti-alien to me. Then again, maybe that's just Council and Alliance propaganda talking

 

While I think that Cerberus can die in a black hole, a lot of their scheming and experimentation could just as easily have been conducted by the Alliance for sake of progress. I mean, let's face it. The prospect of being able to create an army of thorian creepers or rachni shock troops to drop on enemy strongholds seems far more promising than sending some poor suckers in heavy gear to get slaughtered. However crazy their track record is, it seems fairly atypical of a terrorist cell.

 

Cerberus' limited capacity to working with aliens is fairly understandable. They did, of course, help develop the Normandy in conjunction with the turians, but no doubt Cerberus would like to keep a lot of things out of sight from the aliens, just like salarian STG wouldn't want the turians and asari to know everything they do.

 

Considering their track record, I imagine many would be upset if they found out that the salarians were looking to uplift the yagh.

[themikefest]

I do agree that Ashley going from an NCO to a field grade Officer is very, very unlikely in that short amount of time

[CosmicGnosis]

I'm going to save Kaidan on my next playthrough of the trilogy. It's been a while since I've seen him in ME3, so maybe I'll have a better appreciation for his role in that game.