551 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanilka]

It was actually really hard for me to save Ashley with my male Shepard, even though he was romancing Ashley. I don't think it makes much sense in-game either because Kaidan's the senior officer. Not that I didn't respect what Ashley did in ME1, but I also can't really see a good RP reason for it. And I agree that it makes a better death for Ashley than for Kaidan. I really just wanted to see how the game was different with Ashley instead of Kaidan, and I wanted to see the fallout after my male Shep fell hard for Miranda. I was totally going to be like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ when talking to Ashley.

 

And her design change is just mind-boggling and a little insulting. I mean, she's not even in uniform. The first time you meet Kaidan in ME3 he's in BDUs. Ashley's in a latex jacket with a plunging v-neck and long, silky hair. I'm just like, wut? Who is this person? I need to try the Ashley Legacy mod to at least get her appearance back to something a little closer to Chief Williams, but I don't think that will change much with regard to that playthrough.

 

I know this is all JMHO, but Shepard and Ashley's relationship felt far more forced than Shepard and Kaidan's. During just about all of ME1 I wondered why my Shepard would be attracted to her. She's quoting poetry right before you bang and all I thought was, "This is not sexy." And then along came Miranda and boom. There went my poor Sheploo's heart.

 

Well, I think whether one or the other is worth saving could depend on how you justify the situation. I do think that both returning to the bomb site and going to the AA tower has its justifications, though. If you left Kaidan with the bomb and felt like it's more realistic to leave him there and going to the AA tower, that's a valid reason. (Though I sincerely wouldn't want it to go off with me dealing with stuff at the tower.) It's also valid to think that a race of super-advanced AIs may easily disable the bomb and AA tower guys got all the help they could anyway, so going back can be easily justified, as well. Since they're both putting their ass on the line, I'm not sure their rank matters, however, I admit I do find Kaidan more valuable an asset in various ways and his rank does play a role in it if we're speaking cold blooded logic. On the other hand, as you say, It's always cool to RP and see how it plays out with different setup.

 

The change pisses me off because it seems so out of character for her and, as you said, Kaidan wears a regular uniform. (Thank gods for that.) It's quite clear what happened there... You know, if it were Miranda, I think it would be perfectly acceptable, but Ashley? When I saw her for the first time, it was a big WTF for me, too. Judging from the reactions of her fans, it really wasn't a good way to go. Funny thing is that she didn't need all that crap because she was already gorgeous back in ME1. The Legacy mod just proves that she could've stayed herself and still looked beautiful.

 

Hey, this is a thread about opinions after all. I must say that I thought there was some really great chemistry and tension between Shepard and romanced Kaidan, but that might be just me. I'd assume it would be similar for Ash, but who knows, I'd have to try that. I like she's into poetry, though. I must say I dislike poetry, but I thought it was an interesting feature for her. Maybe you could take it that she's somewhat awkward in a relationship. Maybe an infatuated manShep might fall for it... or manShep that likes poetry... or manShep that thinks it's a bit awkward but kind of cute and rather focuses on what's ahead, lol.

[Vanilka]

I like Jack's emo poetry more. lol. And if I was Femshep, it'd be Thane. Everything out of his mouth is poetry.

 

Lol, oh no, that was truly emo in the purest sense of the word. I liked discovering that side of her, though. I felt like it gave a unique dimension to her personality and perhaps that's how she vented. And, ahh, yes, Thane, taking you on a... special kind of trip... As far as I and poetry are concerned, if it must be, I prefer Kasumi's style. She can appreciate the good stuff.

[Monica21]

Hey, this is a thread about opinions after all. I must say that I thought there was some really great chemistry and tension between Shepard and romanced Kaidan, but that might be just me. I'd assume it would be similar for Ash, but who knows, I'd have to try that. I like she's into poetry, though. I must say I dislike poetry, but I thought it was an interesting feature for her. Maybe you could take it that she's somewhat awkward in a relationship. Maybe an infatuated manShep might fall for it... or manShep that likes poetry... or manShep that thinks it's a bit awkward but kind of cute and rather focuses on what's ahead, lol.

 

Maybe it's just because I'm female and am also super awkward, but I never got a sense that there was anything beyond attraction between Shepard and Ashley. There's one line from her about Williams girls not doing anything until they're ready but it's just kinda sexually suggestive. To me, Kaidan's "Do you always take this much interest in your crew?" line was more indicative of not just attraction but in hey, this is a thing that's not just physical. And there are other lines about "seeing this through" that lead me to see the Kaidan/FemShep relationship as a growing attraction where they both really do want to see if it's relationship-worthy and not just some shipboard attraction. I never got that from any of Ashley's dialogue.

 

But maybe my male Shepard is just a big dumb guy. Also though, kind of threw him when Ashley told him she loved him on Horizon and even as a woman I was like, really?! Why? But maybe my male Shepard is also a douchebag. I have no idea.

[Vanilka]

Maybe it's just because I'm female and am also super awkward, but I never got a sense that there was anything beyond attraction between Shepard and Ashley. There's one line from her about Williams girls not doing anything until they're ready but it's just kinda sexually suggestive. To me, Kaidan's "Do you always take this much interest in your crew?" line was more indicative of not just attraction but in hey, this is a thing that's not just physical. And there are other lines about "seeing this through" that lead me to see the Kaidan/FemShep relationship as a growing attraction where they both really do want to see if it's relationship-worthy and not just some shipboard attraction. I never got that from any of Ashley's dialogue.

 

But maybe my male Shepard is just a big dumb guy. Also though, kind of threw him when Ashley told him she loved him on Horizon and even as a woman I was like, really?! Why? But maybe my male Shepard is also a douchebag. I have no idea.

 

I think it might also come down to having a type. It's the reason why some people love Miranda and some Tali. I haven't played manShep yet, but kind of trust you with this because, well, if it were more serious, there would probably at least be some mention of it in the dialogue, I believe. As you say, with Kaidan, there are plenty of implications it's not just a fling and he generally seems very serious about it all the way to his accidental confession before Ilos and beyond. I enjoy his romance especially because it's all gradual and serious and fluffy, it makes you feel like they genuinely do have something going but have to hold back. It might be that Ashley is just not very good with expressing herself on the matter. I know I'm a brick, as well. Or maybe they did indeed fail to convey emotion in that romance. Or it was originally a fling that developed further... Then again, does a fling include poetry...? I'll need to check that out when I have more time.

[Monica21]

I never felt anything either, but I can't speak for all guys. I romanced her at first, but I can't say I was the biggest fan. I got into the game more with ME2 characters.

 

I haven't played manShep yet, but kind of trust you with this because, well, if it were more serious, there would probably at least be some mention of it in the dialogue, I believe. As you say, with Kaidan, there are plenty of implications it's not just a fling and he generally seems very serious about it all the way to his accidental confession before Ilos and beyond. I enjoy his romance especially because it's all gradual and serious and fluffy, it makes you feel like they genuinely do have something going but have to hold back. It might be that Ashley is just not very good with expressing herself on the matter. I know I'm a brick, as well. Or maybe they did indeed fail to convey emotion in that romance. Or it was originally a fling that developed further... Then again, does a fling include poetry...? I'll need to check that out when I have more time.

 

 

Well, I think I actually did unintentionally create a douchebag male Shepard.

 

 

I knew going into the playthrough that he was going to wind up with Miranda so it's probable that I didn't pay enough attention to Ashley's dialogue. I even forgot that she has a flirt with Shepard when you first get to the Citadel, it's just in the place of Kaidan's flirt. (Obv, because ME1 Kaidan was shy about his romantic feelings for male Shepard.) So, to be fair, I was just playing the romance to play it, and see what happened in ME3 when Ashley came back into my life and Miranda only made a few guest appearances. So basically, I have a cold, heartless Shepard who's pretty meh about Ashley and her poetry.

 

Anyway, I'm going to go full stereotype here, even though everyone says never to go full stereotype. I don't really know what the intentions were with Ashley's character, but they do seem much more appealing to the stereotypical man. Not a single mention of "the future" that I can remember. There's even a line of hers that goes something like, "I'm not just a hellcat on the battlefield." Because she totally can't be tamed in bed, geddit?! Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. But when I heard that, I was just like

 

 

Basically everything Ashley says I want to write in a book called, "Never Say This to A Real Person." (Unless they work and if they work then let me know and I will retract everything.)

 

But then you get to Kaidan and he's all, "I can't wait for shore leave so I can talk about my deep and abiding love for you that I can't talk about here on the ship" and as women we're all, this is the guy I found!

 

 

Because it's adorable.

 

So yes. Ashley talks a lot about sex (from what I remember) and Kaidan talks about his feelings. Boom. Men vs. Women.

[Vanilka]

-epic snip-

I'm freaking dying reading this, lol. I think I need regular updates on this. This actually made me go and find a video of a bit of Ashley's romance because I can't see myself playing that any time soon, and it is true that Ashley is very different. It may be her personality, though. She seems interested and flirty but at the same time very indecisive and the whole thing doesn't have the amount of... comfort (?) like with Kaidan. Interesting. (The pull-up moment before hijacking the Normandy looked a bit... odd. I guess I'm used to seeing it with femShep.) It does seem like she does like Shepard quite a lot, but she seems to be better at making flirty remarks and at being a tease rather than actually expressing how she feels. (Shepard is still a brick responding.) My impression is that she really is bad with words, I guess, she even admits it. I have mixed feelings now.

 

Kaidan does have a shameless line or two... or three. Like when Shepard tells him he'll distract her from saving the galaxy and he responds something along the lines of, "I think it can take care of itself one of these days. Or nights." And I'm like, "Ohohoho..." But, yeah, he mostly tends to be all fluff and feels first and the other stuff later and, well, yeah, works for me. Although... I never did think that talking about undying love was what he meant by that shore leave, lol.

 

It's interesting how the romances feel so different. I mean, the atmosphere is completely different. That's a good thing, though. And I guess that you're right, it may have something to do with the target audience... Now I feel predictable, hrm.

[Monica21]

I'm freaking dying reading this, lol. I think I need regular updates on this. This actually made me go and find a video of a bit of Ashley's romance because I can't see myself playing that any time soon, and it is true that Ashley is very different. It may be her personality, though. She seems interested and flirty but at the same time very indecisive and the whole thing doesn't have the amount of... comfort (?) like with Kaidan. Interesting. (The pull-up moment before hijacking the Normandy looked a bit... odd. I guess I'm used to seeing it with femShep.) It does seem like she does like Shepard quite a lot, but she seems to be better at making flirty remarks and at being a tease rather than actually expressing how she feels. (Shepard is still a brick responding.) My impression is that she really is bad with words, I guess, she even admits it. I have mixed feelings now.

 

Kaidan does have a shameless line or two... or three. Like when Shepard tells him he'll distract her from saving the galaxy and he responds something along the lines of, "I think it can take care of itself one of these days. Or nights." And I'm like, "Ohohoho..." But, yeah, he mostly tends to be all fluff and feels first and the other stuff later and, well, yeah, works for me. Although... I never did think that talking about undying love was what he meant by that shore leave, lol.

 

It's interesting how the romances feel so different. I mean, the atmosphere is completely different. That's a good thing, though. And I guess that you're right, it may have something to do with the target audience... Now I feel predictable, hrm.

 

I think Ashley comes across as more intimidated by Shepard than Kaidan does. If he's intimidated at all he gets over it pretty quick, but Ashley's just kind of star-struck the whole game. Maybe that's where the comfort level comes in. And yeah, the scene by the lockers looks downright odd with Ashley and a male Shepard. I dunno. I guess I just find it hard to believe she'd pull so hard it would throw him off-balance and into her arms.

 

Yes, Kaidan does have some shameless lines, which I definitely appreciate, and I agree about the shore leave line. But still! I'm quite sure that it would be a thing that would be discussed once they had some time to breathe or were just too exhausted. He just strikes me as that kind of guy. Well, and I guess he actually says that he's that kind of guy, even though I can't remember the line. Maybe when he's talking about Rhana or the "staying up late" thing?

 

And hah! Glad you enjoyed!

[aoibhealfae]

my gosh, there's another Kaidan and Ashley thread that I didn't know about. Compulsory wall of text.

 

The thing about Mass Effect in general, there was a lot of content that was gender-gated and romance-gated and the game itself react differently to different situations that made highly variable experiences among each players. When dealing with characters themselves, normally I would factor if I am playing as FemShep or BroShep, my general dialogue preferences, romance or unromanced, who get Virmire-d etc.

 

One of the things I like about Ashley, her friendship path was heartwarming. I was surprised when I saw how warm Shepard get with Ash but cold toward unromanced Kaidan. And it was odd to hear an unromanced FemShep referring Kaidan as Alenko. It was like, Kaidan and Shepard never move beyond their professional relationship as colleagues while Shepard always treat Ashley as a subordinate who became a close friend. 

 

Even so, Ashley will always stay dead in my usual narrative. While I'd love if I could save both her and Kaidan but I felt like the whole narrative felt wrong with her being alive. Even if you can choose not to save her or shoot her, she's an even bigger plot-armored character than Liara and Garrus. I like that in ME1, I save her only to sacrifice her at the bomb site. Her story ended there, tragic and yet, admirable. Dead Ashley received several turian and salarian medals to boot.

 

But with her being alive until the end of the game... her whole characterization fell apart. I can't reasonably explain how she go from Operations Chief to Lieutenant Commander in six month. And in that six months, she AVOIDED Shepard and then immediately after Udina gave her the Spectre status, she choose to stay with Udina and that after the standoff, you have a discussion with her about why she's working for Udina and then she went all existential crisis baloney with more alcohol. Plus, she got a lot worst if romanced. As in, she go from being this snippy badass into... "Shepard I'm this vulnerable woman in need of love.. you're my knight in shining armor.. please sweep me off and recite poetry to me"... (I'm more a Epic Poetry person, and I never quote directly unless I'm writing a thesis.) 

 

With Kaidan, unlike the conversation with Ash, it was never implied that he never visited Shepard at all... although it felt they had a major argument about Cerberus before the saw each other again in the beginning of the game. It made sense since James was reminding him about Shepard being under constant surveillance rather than treating it like its a new information. Then after he received his Spectre status, the first thing he do was finding his biotic squads and trying to find news about his family.... and then you remember the wreckage at the beginning of the game was Vancouver. Bam... we saw his home and entire city being destroyed by the reapers and then all communications were down and his family were missing.... and we knew this without the need of long verbal expositions.

 

I like that Kaidan gave a lot of nuances like this... there's a lot of stories he was telling without him being actively showing off about it. Stuff like he killed an experienced turian mercenary veteran only a year after he received his implants. The fact that he had briefly considered not enlisting (which is why he said his father was proud when he eventually enlisted) and why he's older but Shepard was his senior. The fact that he was reserved because as an L2 biotic, he gave off static which was painful for anyone to touch him. Which is why I love how significant it was in ME1 when Shepard pulled him away from the beacon, when he pulled her toward him for the near kiss and then touching his face before he ravishes her.. there's this build up trust between a mutual acquaintance to lovers which I love. Either way Kaidan and all his hidden subtext made the whole game interesting without the need of headcanons. 

[Monica21]

One of the things I like about Ashley, her friendship path was heartwarming.

 

Great post, but I just wanted to respond to this for right now. I actually really do like Ashley as FemShep's friend. She's the overprotective older sister with the crap family history and I think it's much easier to click with her as FemShep. I kind of play it as taking her under my wing, and I always save Virmire as the last mission before Ilos so that I can keep her around most of the game.

[Broganisity]

I don't trust that Ashley has the skill to defend that bomb, and that bomb needs to go off.

On the other hand, I always forget to talk to both of them so they really mean nothing to me. . .that's the only reason I save Ashley over Kaiden, at least in my 'canon' playthrough (though I have no intention of replaying Mass Effect One.)

[aoibhealfae]

It took me a couple of playthroughs to really warm up to her but playing with her being alive does give me a fresh perspective to why ME3's Shepard is still mourning for the one left at Virmire and the line "we went through Ash's death together" with Kaidan. Even during Genesis 2, it was implied that Kaidan came to her room to comfort Shepard who was still hurting about the decision to leave Ash behind.

 

Somehow neither BroShep/Ashley or Liara fit right with this narrative scheme. Ashley only see Kaidan as her other senior officer and with him dead, it simply adds to her immense sole survivor guilt (and her romance lines including her poetry was too much for me... and I never would have thought BroShep have that in him..) while Liara just self-insert herself whenever she wants. So by the end of the game, it made sense why there's still a lot of folks who didn't feel like VS matter much to their gameplay narrative. I really don't mind that much since I have my own views on a lot of characters who didn't even matter much to my Shepard's narrative but was included only because they're 'fan favorites'... what is Bioware without some fanservicing.

[Vanilka]

I think Ashley comes across as more intimidated by Shepard than Kaidan does. If he's intimidated at all he gets over it pretty quick, but Ashley's just kind of star-struck the whole game. Maybe that's where the comfort level comes in. And yeah, the scene by the lockers looks downright odd with Ashley and a male Shepard. I dunno. I guess I just find it hard to believe she'd pull so hard it would throw him off-balance and into her arms.
 
Yes, Kaidan does have some shameless lines, which I definitely appreciate, and I agree about the shore leave line. But still! I'm quite sure that it would be a thing that would be discussed once they had some time to breathe or were just too exhausted. He just strikes me as that kind of guy. Well, and I guess he actually says that he's that kind of guy, even though I can't remember the line. Maybe when he's talking about Rhana or the "staying up late" thing?
 
And hah! Glad you enjoyed!

 
Yes, I guess that's what I feel from it. She seems quite flustered and a little hyper a lot of time, perhaps. I've never felt that way with Kaidan, except that one moment when he slips on the Citadel and upon the realisation, he so looks like "What have I dooone?", lol. Otherwise he's always seemed quite relaxed to me. Maybe even a little too much for a subordinate, but hey, not complaining.
 
The locker scene is odd, yeah. I do believe that Ashley could probably lift a horse if she wanted to (Technically, she should be able to carry a fully armed and armoured adult man off the battlefield if she needed to.), so to speak, but Shepard's animation does come across as a bit feminine, perhaps. (And that's not necessarily wrong, mind you. But perhaps it's a little inconsistent with the rest of what we've seen of him.) I think my problem is also their positioning because manShep suddenly looks shorter than Ashley and is looking up at her while they're about to kiss. (Don't try to imagine his body in that stance.) I do feel like they originally made the scene with femShep and Kaidan and then switched the models. Not that there's anything wrong with doing that, of course, but I do think it just works so much better with femShep. I remember thinking, back when I saw it for the first time, that Shepard looked very feminine during that moment. I love that the animations are mostly unisex in the game and I wouldn't have it any other way, but that particular moment really stood out for me because I felt like it was a side of her that had always been somewhat there but that she didn't get to show often. It felt natural.
 
Yeah, I don't doubt he's the more romantic type and he wants it to mean something. I like to experiment with dialogue sometimes to see what the NPCs are like so I have tried the "Time to get 'physical' then," line when he talks about BAaT (I don't normally pick it because it's a bit silly to me.) and he responds, quite bothered by Shepard thinking like that, something along the lines of "I'm not that kind of guy. There was a girl I was friends with, but we kept our clothes on." I also watched a vid of what happens when you lead both Liara and him on and he's the one to walk out of a threesome with two pretty ladies and looks genuinely hurt if Shepard doesn't clearly pick him, but still treats both her and Liara with respect. That gave me a good idea of what kind of character he is. So, yeah, I agree with you that there's more to it than that, without a doubt.
 

I like that Kaidan gave a lot of nuances like this... there's a lot of stories he was telling without him being actively showing off about it. Stuff like he killed an experienced turian mercenary veteran only a year after he received his implants. The fact that he had spend briefly considered not enlisting (which is why he said his father was proud when he eventually enlisted) and why he's older but Shepard was his senior. The fact that he was reserved because as an L2 biotic, he gave off static which was painful for anyone to touch him. Which is why I love how significant it was in ME1 when Shepard pulled him away from the beacon, when he pulled her toward him for the near kiss and then touching his face before he ravishes her.. there's this build up trust between a mutual acquaintance to lovers which I love. Either way Kaidan and all his hidden subtext made the whole game interesting without the need of headcanons.

 
Great post! You state a lot of things that make me really enjoy this romance and character, as well. I know Kaidan is generally not crazy popular, but with time I came to the realisation he's probably my favourite character in the franchise (Yeah, I'm boring like that.) because if you bother paying attention to him, there's quite lot to him and he grows a great deal as a character and so does his relationship with Shepard. To me, he's a big, inseparable part of my canon Shepard's story and I feel that, as with the other romances, he helps give her character depth.

 

I think one part that always gets me about his ME1's dialogue is this, "You make me feel human," thing. I always end up thinking about it again when in ME3 he tells you that everybody sees human biotics as freaks. Can't stop thinking about whether there's a connection there.

 

And I think the fangirls have effectively hijacked the thread.

 

I regret nothing.
 

I think it could have been even more interesting if the Salarians died if you abandoned whoever you sent with them.

 

Yeah, I think that totally should've been addressed. I sent Ash with them and then returned to the bomb site and afterwards the Salarians were on the ship....... WHERE'S ASHLEY, YOU BASTARDS? WHY DIDN'T YOU TAKE HER WITH YOU?    I suppose their positions might be different or something so the Normandy could pick them up but not Ashley's team... uh... Yeah, I've got nothing.

[Goodmongo]

Well for a really cool renegade sequence you keep talking till Ashley shoots Wrex.  Then you go bonkers on her for shooting Wrex.  Have Kaiden die then in ME3 when Ashley pulls a gun on you during the Citadel attack you know you have to shoot her because she shot Wrex.  It all fits.

 

Kaiden was in lot's of pain from the L2 implants.  You stopped that suffering and he went out a hero.

[aoibhealfae]

I always assume Ashley died while you're fighting the geth at the bomb site since that was the last time we hear her voice and then the Salarians just ran off without her body. Since you didn't get any additional scene with her at the AA tower, I just put her with the bomb just to watch her pout as Normandy fly right pass her..... and I always laugh when FemShep lifted Kaidan one-handed on her shoulder so I always go to AA tower for now. 

[aka.700]

I like both in ME1.
I prefer Kaidan in ME3. Both for usefulness and for personality.
Also Ashley isn't an exceptional soldier to become a spectre.

[Goodmongo]

Also Ashley isn't an exceptional soldier to become a spectre.

 

I think she made spectre because Udina thought he can easily control her.  He was already plotting the Citadel attack with TIM and they needed a controllable spectre around to help pull it off.  It really fits the plot nicely because she IMO still thinks you are controlled by Cerberus.  Cerberus is attacking so if you show up Udina doesn't have far to go to convince her that you are part of the problem.

 

And it fits nicely with you basically forcing her to submit or you shooting her (or a teammate).

 

For enjoyment purposes I like to keep Ashley as it involves a sharper tone when you're not romancing either of them.  I only keep Kaiden if I romanced him in ME1.  Without romance Kaiden is kind of boring and shooting him at the Citedel isn't as much fun.  And letting them live isn't as much fun.

[aka.700]

I think she made spectre because Udina thought he can easily control her.  He was already plotting the Citadel attack with TIM and they needed a controllable spectre around to help pull it off.  It really fits the plot nicely because she IMO still thinks you are controlled by Cerberus.  Cerberus is attacking so if you show up Udina doesn't have far to go to convince her that you are part of the problem.
 
And it fits nicely with you basically forcing her to submit or you shooting her (or a teammate).
 
For enjoyment purposes I like to keep Ashley as it involves a sharper tone when you're not romancing either of them.  I only keep Kaiden if I romanced him in ME1.  Without romance Kaiden is kind of boring and shooting him at the Citedel isn't as much fun.  And letting them live isn't as much fun.

Except the last part I agree with you.
Yes, Kaidan can be boring sometimes but Ash for me is a lot boring than him.

[Vanilka]

I don't know about the Spectre thing. I mean, I've always wondered about it, but one councillor can't name a Spectre him/herself. It takes the whole Council to agree upon that. I've always thought that it was a sneaky move on Udina's side at first, but also that the rest of the Council honestly thought that Ash/Kaidan is good enough to become a Spectre. Well, that's what I think, at least.

[aoibhealfae]

I've always assume VS was already a Spectre candidate when you meet them on Horizon. Remember back in ME1 when they said if a Spectre gone rogue, the council will send another Spectre after them... and remember that Shepard have to prove Saren was a rogue Spectre before s/he became one. That's exactly what Kaidan and Ash did except they simply prove that Shepard was telling the truth about the Collectors.

 

And only Ash had a moment of doubt about accepting it but she doesn't act like she was surprised about the offer unlike Shepard in ME1.