550 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashtalia]

when Kaidan approched me, after he fully recovered at the hospital and asked if he should take Hackit's offer to join his squad....i simply straight out give him the good to go on Hacket's squad

Yes

[Megaton_Hope]

I've never particularly liked either of them. If I had to choose based solely on which one annoys me less to talk to, I'd keep Kaidan alive, because Ashley alternately bores me with a poor understanding of poetry and angers me with hoo-rah jingoism and petty bigotry.

[Little Princess Peach]

I will always pick Kaidan, mostly because he fits my canon shepard the most

[Made Nightwing]

Adoramei wrote...

Personally, I hated Ashley from the start. I've grown up being made fun of for not being white in an upper-middle class primarily white town. The xenophobia thing really irked me from the start. I mean, she starts right off with the, "It's not racism.. not really!" line! Next thing she's probably ready to say is that her best friend is a Turian. I don't care how paragon my character is- I tell her to shut the eff up right then and there. In fact, the more paragon they are, the more they want her to stop chatting casually about her mistrust based on what someone is born as.

She compares other races to animals. Admits that she would throw a family dog at a bear to get mauled and not bat an eye. (Seriously. Not only do I KNOW what it is to be treated/regarded as less-than-human based on the colour of my skin, but I love animals. And you can believe that I would take that family dog and get the eff away from that bear no matter what it took because I'd be fighting for my family.) She even tells Liara in the conflict, "You're not even our species!" Yeah. She can GTFO.

And the points for completely missing the point of the metaphor, bigotry and being a hypocrite goes to Adoramei.

Now, first point. You say you support religious freedom, then call her stupid for being religious. That, my friend, is called bigotry. It likewise makes you guilty of the same thing you (mistakenly) accuse a character of, saying you're not prejudiced, then demonstrating prejudice in your next words.

Second, did you even listen to what she was saying? She was saying that the COUNCIL was the owner, and HUMANITY was the dog, and that when it comes down to it, the COUNCIL would sic their dog on the threat to buy themselves more time. And come ME3, what does the Asari Councillor say? "The sad truth is, that while the Reapers are busy with Earth, we have more time to prepare ourselves." So, not only was Ashley not saying that she hated aliens, she was actually correctly predicting the future. She was not describing herself and her dog, she was describing HERSELF as the dog. And her line 'it's not racism, not really', was referring to the Council's attitude, not to her own. She was saying that THEY would look out for their own interests first, that EVERY species would look out for their own interests first. Picture this, say the French get attacked by the Spanish. They ask the US for help. But, just by chance, the US has just been attacked by the Chinese, and are fighting for their lives. This is the situation Ashley is referring to, not a matter of race, but of NATIONALITY, a concept that people like you just can't seem to get through their thick skulls. For heaven's sake, she's not even judging them, just calling it how it is.

And just by chance, it turns out that her best friend is a quarian. Her dialogue toward Tali throughout ME1 is consistently friendly, with lines such as 'I hope this mission helps change people's minds about your people'. And look at that, come ME3, she refers to Tali as being 'like a little sister'. Should the quarians die, she's the most upset about it. Sort of puts the nail in the coffin of the 'racism' thing, huh? Ironically, it's bigotry on your part that prevented you from ever seeing that.

I hate to say this, but I think you are way too over-sensitive. If that's the kind of anger you display toward a video game character, it just might be your perspective in real life. A good shrink can help you with that.

I should go.

[JosieFrances]

Kaidan every time! Ashley really rubbed me the wrong way in ME1 and Kaidan well he was my LI from the beginning xD so I had to save him!

I do think Ashley was a lot better in ME3 than she was in ME1 myself but I still love Kaidan as a character so much more!

[Modius Prime]

I loved both of them. Kaidan seemed like the paragon for me, and Ash was the renegade... at least that is how they rubbed off on me in the beginning. Ashley had a great personality and she really had a long history about what she was fighting for: the reputation of her family. Kaidan was the reserved, sensitive man that wanted to help the galaxy becoming more united after his experience in BAaT. I always save Kaidan on Virmire because Ashley *drum roll* was very racist and disrespectful. You could convince her to be more open-minded, but the fact that you have to convince her (see IMDB quotes) is terrible, while Kaidan seems to have already matured enough to realize that humans aren't the boss. If I look at it objectively, my Shepard is a soldier and having another soldier (I already have Garrus who has overload and AP rounds, along with James) is just stupid, considering how great biotics are (Kaidan has overload and reave). Most people say they rescue Ashley simply because they think she's attractive, but if you can get past that I think Kaidan is the better option. He's a more experienced soldier and is a real bro (or hoe ;D). He seems a lot more sympathetic than Ashley and has strong values, and I would rescue him even if I wasn't romancing him on my male Shepard. Kaidan has never failed me in terms of strategy in the game and is my primary love interest.

Modifié par Modius Prime, 17 mars 2013 - 11:01 .

[Saiyan1126]

garrusfan1 wrote...

I liked ash better in ME1 but in ME3 kaiden is much better

This. Metagaming makes Virmire even harder. I hate Liara as a maleshep ME1 romance (naive and creepy), but I hate Ashley in ME3 period. Empty ME1 bed and a tolerable ME3 Kaidan? Or sexytime ME1 and an intolerable ME3 Ashley?

[Xilizhra]

Now, first point. You say you support religious freedom, then call her stupid for being religious. That, my friend, is called bigotry. It likewise makes you guilty of the same thing you (mistakenly) accuse a character of, saying you're not prejudiced, then demonstrating prejudice in your next words.

Well, her one statement about religion is a heinous logical fallacy, basically saying that one should infer the existence of some variety of creator being simply by looking at the existence of the universe. It's not a good indicator of her putting much critical thought into her own religion.

Second, did you even listen to what she was saying? She was saying that the COUNCIL was the owner, and HUMANITY was the dog, and that when it comes down to it, the COUNCIL would sic their dog on the threat to buy themselves more time. And come ME3, what does the Asari Councillor say? "The sad truth is, that while the Reapers are busy with Earth, we have more time to prepare ourselves." So, not only was Ashley not saying that she hated aliens, she was actually correctly predicting the future. She was not describing herself and her dog, she was describing HERSELF as the dog. And her line 'it's not racism, not really', was referring to the Council's attitude, not to her own. She was saying that THEY would look out for their own interests first, that EVERY species would look out for their own interests first. Picture this, say the French get attacked by the Spanish. They ask the US for help. But, just by chance, the US has just been attacked by the Chinese, and are fighting for their lives. This is the situation Ashley is referring to, not a matter of race, but of NATIONALITY, a concept that people like you just can't seem to get through their thick skulls. For heaven's sake, she's not even judging them, just calling it how it is.

Which makes the statement a complete waste of time because it's what every single nation ever has done, at best, and Shepard would already know this. At best, Ashley's just trying to make herself sound clever; at worst, she's babbling to find some way of saying something negative about other races obliquely. Also, recall her "I'm no fan of aliens" line in ME2, where at least she's less obtuse about it.

And just by chance, it turns out that her best friend is a quarian. Her dialogue toward Tali throughout ME1 is consistently friendly, with lines such as 'I hope this mission helps change people's minds about your people'. And look at that, come ME3, she refers to Tali as being 'like a little sister'. Should the quarians die, she's the most upset about it. Sort of puts the nail in the coffin of the 'racism' thing, huh? Ironically, it's bigotry on your part that prevented you from ever seeing that.

No it doesn't. Bigotry isn't an insurmountable obstacle to befriending certain people of the prejudiced-against group, it just means that you're not thinking sufficiently critically about the relationship and your own wider misconceptions.

[Legion of 1337]

Ashley may be a **** in some people's eyes, but she is a far more developed and interesting character. Kaidan is just.....boring.

We're looking for quality narrative, people - might as well choose the better of two characters.

Modifié par Legion of 1337, 17 mars 2013 - 11:43 .

[AVPen]

^ Out of sheer curiosity, what  exactly about Ashley's story in ME3 do you find to be of a more "quality narrative" than Kaidan's?  Cause I honestly seeing nothing quality in how Ash was written in ME3. 

If anything, Kaidan got a ton of character and story development in ME3 - from the discussions on his work with his students and the biotic spec-op squads that he personally trained, to his conflicted views on Cerberus that you get after the Ex-Cerberus Scientists mission, to his initial worries at the beginning and later rectifying his relationship with Shepard (which easily works as a romance or even just a good friend, while Ashley only really works as a love interest), to the way he interacts with the rest of the Normandy crew (unlike Ash, who just sits in that f***ing room for the entire war...).... I'm sorry, but Kaidan's ME3 content is just so much more satisfying to go through than Ashley's.

Modifié par AVPen, 18 mars 2013 - 04:32 .

[Megaton_Hope]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Now, first point. You say you support religious freedom, then call her stupid for being religious. That, my friend, is called bigotry. It likewise makes you guilty of the same thing you (mistakenly) accuse a character of, saying you're not prejudiced, then demonstrating prejudice in your next words.

She's not stupid for being religious. She's just stupid, and also religious.

Her whole "It's in my blood to be a Marine, therefore I am also suspicious of foreigners" deal is really trite.

For another example of stupidity, she quotes "Captain, My Captain" to a Shepard who has romanced her, referring to Shepard. While maybe I'm supposed to applaud that she's read some poems, it might be a little nicer for her to understand the ones she's read. (The "captain" is, one, explicitly deceased in the poem, and, two, refers to Abraham Lincoln. Neither of those things offers romantic overtones. Whitman also refers to him as "father" a couple times, so it's a little extra creepy.)

So, not only was Ashley not saying that she hated aliens, she was actually correctly predicting the future. She was not describing herself and her dog, she was describing HERSELF as the dog. And her line 'it's not racism, not really', was referring to the Council's attitude, not to her own. She was saying that THEY would look out for their own interests first, that EVERY species would look out for their own interests first.

And therefore, that humans should as well, anticipating that response from the other species in question. She's also pretty explicit in making use of pejoratives like bug-eyed monsters:



Around 40: "At least she looks like a woman," Around 56, "Under orders to make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."

She's also "concerned" about Garrus and Wrex:



Around 27: "Should they have full access to the ship?" followed by accusations of possible espionage or sabotage, although Garrus, at least, left his career in Citadel Security specifically to pursue Saren with Shepard.

Her xenophobic attitude is no fundamentally different from the explicitly racist Charles Saracino's, or the more veiled Elias Keeler's. Ashley is, of course, one of two crew members (the other being Navigator Pressly, who early on expresses concerns about Nihlus) for whom the writers carefully included disavowals of their earlier suspicions toward aliens in the second game. (For Ashley, a quip about how "We're all just animals.") Which means that the writers, of course, considered their earlier attitudes to be too extreme to be sympathetic.

Picture this, say the French get attacked by the Spanish. They ask the US for help. But, just by chance, the US has just been attacked by the Chinese, and are fighting for their lives. This is the situation Ashley is referring to, not a matter of race, but of NATIONALITY, a concept that people like you just can't seem to get through their thick skulls.

The nationalities in question are biologically distinct, and originated on different planets. The "races" in question are indissoluble from the concept of being a "race" separate from our own, the human "race." Which is quite a lot different in nature from prejudice against different breeds of hominid, although not more justifiable.

And just by chance, it turns out that her best friend is a quarian.

Racists love this argument. Some of their best friends are black! Somebody with black friends can't have beliefs which unfairly characterize black people as inferior.

Or like that time John McCain said he'd "hate those gooks till the day I die," and he tried to clarify that he meant particular gooks, not all gooks.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Kaidan.

If you enjoyed Ash's character the way she was in ME1, ME3 will only disappoint.

Kaidan in ME3 is nothing spectacular and I definitely feel some wasted potential with his character, but he's still largely consistent with his old self, and then he's vastly more useful in gameplay (IMO, second best squadmate).

[KiwiQuiche]

Ashley, then it became Kaidan after ME3 turned her into a tart.

[nos_astra]

Megaton_Hope wrote...
And therefore, that humans should as well, anticipating that response from the other species in question. She's also pretty explicit in making use of pejoratives like bug-eyed monsters:



Around 40: "At least she looks like a woman," Around 56, "Under orders to make nice with the bug-eyed monsters."

That's most definitely rude. 
It's also one of the few instances a major character represents accurately the mindset that is prevalent in humans of that time. 

Without Ashley the codex entries about how humans are newcomers in the galactic community and aliens are regarded with suspicion would ring completely hollow.

Ashley is also essentially a foil for Paragon!Shepard (as opposed to Kaidan who's a foil for Renegade!Shepard). They are supposed to challenge the PCs to reflect on the humanity's standing in the galaxy.

She's also "concerned" about Garrus and Wrex:



Around 27: "Should they have full access to the ship?" followed by accusations of possible espionage or sabotage, although Garrus, at least, left his career in Citadel Security specifically to pursue Saren with Shepard.

That's a reasonable question. They shouldn't have unrestricted access to the ship, of course.

Wrex is a random mercenary, spewing death threats against C-Sec officers who dare question him on the Citadel.
Garrus is a quitter who wants play hero.

None of them are needed on the Normandy. Read, unlike Liara and Tali whose presence is somewhat justified by their unique fields of expertise (Protheans, geth) Wrex and Garrus are just invited to go shoot at enemies, on a human prototype spaceship with a handpicked marine detail. 

Her xenophobic attitude is no fundamentally different from the explicitly racist Charles Saracino's, or the more veiled Elias Keeler's. Ashley is, of course, one of two crew members (the other being Navigator Pressly, who early on expresses concerns about Nihlus) for whom the writers carefully included disavowals of their earlier suspicions toward aliens in the second game. (For Ashley, a quip about how "We're all just animals.") Which means that the writers, of course, considered their earlier attitudes to be too extreme to be sympathetic.

They also removed the speciesism from Shepard's dialogue wheel. 
They even removed it from Cerberus.

Despite this being a big part of the background.

It's actually quite sad that they made the universe more generic because players can't deal with more realistic characters.

[Examurai]

It depends on my character class. If Shepard is a biotic in anyway, then I always save Ashley. If not than, Kaiden. Thats how I base my choice on lol
Oh...and I probably prefer...Ashley.

[Knight of Dane]

Ash had more character in 1, but she annoyed me too much in ME3, from now on I always go with Kaidan.

[DecCylonus]

AVPen wrote...

DecCylonus wrote...

That said, I do enjoy Ashley's romance in ME3. I just have to grit my teeth and smile when she starts into the "You worked with Cerberus to stop the Collectors, how can I trust you?" garbage.

Personally, man, I'm tired of gritting my teeth with Ashley in ME3.... for my 2nd MaleShep Joseph, I should've gone with my instincts and had the character romance Jack in ME2 instead of staying loyal to Ashley. <_<

Don't get me wrong: Ashley's blow-up on Horizon in ME2 ruined the romance for me. I had intended for my main Shepard to be faithful to her in all three games, but that scene and the lame email from her afterwards changed my mind. I wanted Shepard's LI to have faith in him, and clearly that wasn't Ash. I chose Miranda after talking with all the possible LI options, and I'm very happy with that choice today.

When I say I still enjoy Ashley's romance in ME3, I mean I enjoy the scenes and the way her story plays out. I still don't like her trust issues, and she will never replace Miranda as my preferred LI.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Btw: so with everything said and done, how come people still misspell Kaidan's name (even those that actually support him in answers above).

Just out of curiosity...

[Helios969]

It's not Ash's fault she was written as a shallow b*tch with a boob job and botox injections, nor is it Kaiden's fault he was written as the mindless good soldier with a personality to make Elcor Shakespear sound interesting.

Amazing two videogame characters can illicit such visceral responses.

[iTrisk]

Kaidan doesn't look like a tranny.

[Lucifer0]

 Played the trilogy with both... And definitely Kaiden! Ash was not bad in ME1, but she turned out to be more ****y then I can take in ME3.

[Iakus]

Oh, look, another Ash-hate thread. This is original...

[Zazzerka]

iakus wrote...

Oh, look, another Ash-hate thread. This is original...

I know that feel, bro.

Liara fan.

[Xilizhra]

iakus wrote...

Oh, look, another Ash-hate thread. This is original...

Not all criticisms of her character are hatred. There are legitimate flaws there that certain of her fanbase seem to overlook by lumping all critics in with haters.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Kaidan.

Ashley is just annoying and boring in ME3.

on a side note. I also feel that Ashley makes more sense to be the one left behind on Virmire, because doing so atleast provides her with a small but fitting character arc by redeeming her family name. While if Kaidan dies ... he just dies.