124 réponses à ce sujet

[Devoidparanoia]

CosmicBuffalo wrote...

"Someone else may have gotten it wrong."

Modifié par Devoidparanoia, 15 mars 2013 - 07:12 .

[Fang92]

Dokteur Kill wrote...

CosmicBuffalo wrote...
In Psychology, this is called Variable Ratio Positive Reinforcement, and is scientifically proven to generate the highest number of 'responses' (packs being opened) in the shortest amount of time.

This is only partially true. The ratio needs to be high enough (basically, the reinforcement needs to be somewhat predictable), or you get "ratio strain", which can actually turn the reinforcement mechanism into a negative one.
 
Here's where it's problematic. Now, keeping these players hanging around for a while more really helps maintain an ecosystem for the less experienced players to flourish in, so there's some value in motivating them to stay. But I strongly doubt that many of these players spend real cash, since the probability of getting any percieved value for your cash is so low. And the store can very quickly turn into a negative reinforcement for this group, which means that players who might still find the main part of the game fun can get demotivated by the very progression system which was supposed to keep them hooked. And the easiest way to keep them motivated is to extend the progression model that works so well for the first group. Give them a semi-predictable way of continuing their progression. Yes, I'm talking about a UR pack. It's no different from how the Vet pack works for UCs or SP/PSP works for Rares, it's the same progression model, only slower. And hey, it might wring some more cash out of a group that currently isn't spending any.

My manifest is a blatant example of role strain. Take a look at the weekend challenges and you can see exactly where i got fed up and just quit. You know what brought me back? New content, such as the Geth Trooper and Geth Juggernaut. When they introduce the new content i felt like i was moving forward again. I do play this game for fun, but when i  feel like the system is denying me new content i want to enjoy i get frustrated and leave. Especially when I actually dont have a single rank of it, just getting one level of whatever is new is sufficient for me. But opening multiple packs to get multiple lv 4 consumables really pisses me off, especially when i still have some other things that are still unavailable to me.

Modifié par Fang92, 15 mars 2013 - 10:33 .

[ThatOddGuy]

I have no beef with Bioware. They've done a great job.

EA can shove it.

[Grunt_Platform]

ABjerre wrote...

There are several ways already on the market, utilized in other franchises. The most common are:

Monthly Subscription:
[snip]
Paid DLC:
[snip
In-game advertizing:
[snip]

These are far from the only alternative systems on the market.

The traditional free to play system (the one ignored by most AAA publishers), for example, involves giving free access to 100% of gameplay content, often locked behind slow or moderately paced grinds. The only content locked behind paygates are cosmetic rewards. Otherwise, players can pay for accelerated (IE more convenient) access to gameplay content. 

Extra-Credits has done an episode on microtransactions

There are tons of options in the world of monetization, and we likely haven't found all of them yet. But the big companies have not been the real leaders on this front.



That all said, I feel the current store system is basically a low maintenance, quick and dirty version of what an ideal store system would look like. Yes, it has a serious skinner box problem, and actually zeroes in on gambling addictions... But I think the basic premise of using in-game credits and a real money system for purchases is a valid system. The rewards for spending real money need to be improved, though, and there should probably be some packs in the store that give better drop rates for weapon mods and gear. But I think a well considered approach, knowing the failings of the current system, could fix just about everything. And I think that's possible now that BioWare has proven the Mass Effect brand can support a strong multiplayer community with even fairly minimal effort.

Modifié par EvanKester, 15 mars 2013 - 11:00 .

[Bleachrude]

rlucht wrote...

CmnDwnWrkn wrote...
Totally agree with this The way this game has been managed since Retaliation has really lowered my opinion of EA/BioWare's business practices.  In the short-term it may be increasing their earnings, but they may be shooting themselves in the foot in the long run.  A company isn't voted "the worst company in America" for no reason.  I see EA having more and more influence on how BioWare operates, and it's sad.

Agreed, I have seen games that I know for a fact generate less "post original sale revenue" get far more bug fixing patches than ME3 has gotten, it is sad indeed.

On consoles though?

I doubt it....

There have been 5 patches released for ME3....to put a patch up on a console costs 40k (and that's just the fee paid to MS and Sony...not the cost of developing said patch).

Which means that EA spent at LEAST 400k just on patching the game....

EDIT: I forgot...The first patch is free so EA only paid for 8 patches....320k not 400k.

Modifié par Bleachrude, 15 mars 2013 - 11:22 .

[AndanteInBlue]

CosmicBuffalo wrote...

AndanteInBlue wrote...

CosmicBuffalo wrote...
In Psychology, this is called Variable Ratio Positive Reinforcement, and is scientifically proven to generate the highest number of 'responses' (packs being opened) in the shortest amount of time.

Alright, if you want to bring up randomized reinforcement, you'll also want to know that the ideal ratio (measure as hormone spikes in mice brain, I believe) is about 1 in 2.  For an animal trainer, a reinforcement ratio of 1 in 10 is typically reserved for "extinction level behaviors", behaviors that you are planning to remove from the animal in the near future, or trying to reduce the level of display in the animal.

One might also say there are ethical issues on employing randomized reinforcement in video games for the purpose to earning microtransaction revenue.  It is akin to online gambling (in fact, exactly the same in mechanism), but targetting a younger demographic.

If a parent doesn't leave a credit card linked to the Xbox (the system I use), then there is no money involved, no actual gambling.  It would be akin to playing poker with bottle caps.  When you win, you get the satisfaction of winning, if you lose, no harm done.

So exactly like online gambling then?  Sure, you can just fool around with it if you don't give them your credit card to it.  But hey, if you happen to have access to a credit card, all the more sweeter.

But there are subtler points you're ignoring.  By making a microtransaction system tied into randomized rewards, they are able to milk more potential users of real money, just like casinos capitalizing on people's gambling problems.  It is the exact same neurological mechanism at work.  Morally dubious at best.

Modifié par AndanteInBlue, 15 mars 2013 - 11:30 .

[han shot shepard]

^Business is morally dubious, don't be naive

To the OP, great post, as an adult I understand that making games isn't free, and being a large man child I want all the things to play with. This is why I have bought packs in the past, the desire for better gear and the understanding that it's not free. To all the people crying, think of how much each map pack, or a season pass to COD costs to access new maps, guns and playmodes.

If you spent the equivalent on ME3 each time there was a new DLC drop, your manifest would be alot healthier. Now I'm not saying that you have to spend real money, but if you're not willing to put in the time or pay to play don't whine about what you're getting for free.

[nicethugbert]

CosmicBuffalo wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

What does psycology have to say about people who hate Variable Ratio Positive Reinforcement so much that under no circumstance will they buy a game that has it?

It would say those individuals are an extreme minority.

No mention of my Big Hairy Man Quad-Satchel eh?  They must be intimdated, or perturbed.

CosmicBuffalo wrote...
The funny thing is, everyone here is still playing the game, complaints and suggestions aside.  That just
goes to show that what you are doing IS working.  But then again, you already know that.

I doubt anybody here bought the game knowing how much they would hate the troll store a year later.  It
would be a mistake to assume that just because people are playing a game that is already paid for that they will be willing to pay for it again.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 16 mars 2013 - 02:41 .

[nicethugbert]

han shot shepard wrote...

^Business is morally dubious, don't be naive

To the OP, great post, as an adult I understand that making games isn't free, and being a large man child I want all the things to play with. This is why I have bought packs in the past, the desire for better gear and the understanding that it's not free. To all the people crying, think of how much each map pack, or a season pass to COD costs to access new maps, guns and playmodes.

If you spent the equivalent on ME3 each time there was a new DLC drop, your manifest would be alot healthier. Now I'm not saying that you have to spend real money, but if you're not willing to put in the time or pay to play don't whine about what you're getting for free.

How can you say that with certainty about random items?

Look at the price of the SP content.  People spend multiples of that in game credits and they get next to nothing if anything.

That is one of the main issues people have with the troll store.  Even if you wanted to give EA money, they refuse to take it if they have to guarantee you get something that you want.  How bat**** crazy is that?  I've never seen this before except in a lottery.

[RobertM525]

Excellent analysis, and it kind of goes to the idea that we don't necessarily want what we think we want.

Case in point: often times in game, it seems like it'd be totally awesome to have a bunch of money, or all the weapons, or unlimited ammo, etc. Then you cheat, and the experience becomes totally hollow.

Similarly, we think we want a maxed out manifest. In reality, if we had it, it would kill our desire to keep playing the game.

That said, there are two things to bear in mind. First, there are undoubtedly plenty of people who felt getting a good manifest, much less a maxed out one, was so difficult/time consuming, that they gave up rather than spending money. (OTOH, these people might never have spent real money on it in the first place.) So the reinforcement schedule was too harsh for these people.

Second, and this is kind of a separate issue, there's the extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivator argument. By having an extrinsic motivator like our manifests (or the Challenges), does it make ME3 MP less fun? I know EA execs/bean counters couldn't care less about that, but certainly the Bioware devs do.

As you point out, though, even the best games (the most intrinsically motivating, so to speak) lose their appeal eventually. So there's a balance there, and perhaps Bioware found a good one here...?

It's hard to say without seeing player numbers over time, both here and in other games.

[Blind2Society]

All discussion of 'big companies going out of business if they don't nickle and dime you at every turn' is rubbish when I think about things like this.

It would seem that a big company going under is more due to those at the top being far too greedy.

Free market does not mean fair market.

[Grunt_Platform]

Blind2Society wrote...

All discussion of 'big companies going out of business if they don't nickle and dime you at every turn' is rubbish when I think about things like this.

It would seem that a big company going under is more due to those at the top being far too greedy.

Free market does not mean fair market.

But...

Canada

[ofarrell]

Thanks for doing this. It is a good analysis.

[Blind2Society]

EvanKester wrote...

Blind2Society wrote...

All discussion of 'big companies going out of business if they don't nickle and dime you at every turn' is rubbish when I think about things like this.

It would seem that a big company going under is more due to those at the top being far too greedy.

Free market does not mean fair market.

But...

Canada

I was thinking about putting a bit in there about that, but I justnever did.

I would think it's probably pretty similar up there.

[CosmicBuffalo]

RobertM525 wrote...

Excellent analysis, and it kind of goes to the idea that we don't necessarily want what we think we want.

Case in point: often times in game, it seems like it'd be totally awesome to have a bunch of money, or all the weapons, or unlimited ammo, etc. Then you cheat, and the experience becomes totally hollow.

Similarly, we think we want a maxed out manifest. In reality, if we had it, it would kill our desire to keep playing the game.

That said, there are two things to bear in mind. First, there are undoubtedly plenty of people who felt getting a good manifest, much less a maxed out one, was so difficult/time consuming, that they gave up rather than spending money. (OTOH, these people might never have spent real money on it in the first place.) So the reinforcement schedule was too harsh for these people.

Second, and this is kind of a separate issue, there's the extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivator argument. By having an extrinsic motivator like our manifests (or the Challenges), does it make ME3 MP less fun? I know EA execs/bean counters couldn't care less about that, but certainly the Bioware devs do.

As you point out, though, even the best games (the most intrinsically motivating, so to speak) lose their appeal eventually. So there's a balance there, and perhaps Bioware found a good one here...?

It's hard to say without seeing player numbers over time, both here and in other games.

Precisely.  I'd say that a game has a limited lifetime anyways (Granted, there will still be SOME people playing this game 20 years from now).  A good balance would be for a moderate or slightly above moderate player to max out, or come very close to maxing out, their manifests by the end of that lifespan.

Those of you that equate the Unlocking System to gambling are missing two big things:

First:
The drop rate of the Ultra-Rares makes PURCHASING packs to get them largely unfeasable.  This in turn has two effects.  It makes individuals more likely to invest money early to unlock the rares and UC's (as they are quite easy to come by), but less likely anyone will attempt to buy their way to a full manifest.  It also maintains the sanctity, if you will, of player manifests.  I've played Facebook games where you 'rank up' by fighting battles and doing other things, but the players on top are always the ones putting money into the game.  

Here in Mass Effect 3, money can get you started, and really get you into the game, but unless you have a LOT of money and patience, it isn't going to buy you a full manifest.  When I see someone with a full manifest (and they are out there), I KNOW that they've worked their little stubby Krogan tails off to get there.  The fact that it is very difficult (impossible) to buy your way to the top of this game says a lot for the individuals that created it.

Second:
There is no potential loss when using credits to open packs.  Many people, on this thread included, have equated the unlock system to gambling, but it is really nothing of the sort.  It uses well-known psychological studies to maximize revenue. This, ladies and gentlemen, is called MARKETING.  It's the same thing as placing the milk at the back of the grocery store so you have to walk past all of those other goodies to get to it because studies have shown you're more likely to buy something that way.

I understand how this system works, and I still give a big "Woohoo!" when I unlock an Ultra-Rare weapon.  I enjoy it when I press that button and get that response.  I expect satisfaction, and with dedication I get it, that's the only reason any of us play video games in the first place.

[o Ventus]

So where's the analysis of game mechanics?

[CosmicBuffalo]

o Ventus wrote...

So where's the analysis of game mechanics?

"Game Mechanics", as in of the business side of video games.

[ryanshowseason3]

CosmicBuffalo wrote...

ryanshowseason3 wrote...

A fair assessment. I'm not convinced there is so much research as your conclusion suggests, but thought is there. All in all though I agree. There had to be something to strive for just out of reach that wasn't difficulty limited. The rng was that.

I can think of better ways to present the rng that would leave the player feeling less cheated and more like they got lucky though.

Im at work so I can't easily link any of these threads, but there are several members who have brought forward data amassed through tracking purchases.  

I would like to hear some of your ideas though.  A way to put a more positive spin on the weapon unlock system while preserving the longevity and profitability of the game.

I'm thinking of the store being represented more like a store. Then having three possible options, one of them being the current random grab bag we have now and a then a listing of weapons.

This listing of weapons would be a "supply" the store has. BW would release some amount of weapons into the store and have a first come first serve mentality, then let the stocks run out and re supply them at random intervals.

This would create actual 'demand' for weapons, and when seeing something noteworthy a player may splurge to get that coveted weapon even when they don't have credits so they might use real currency, because someone else is surely going to buy it and then it will have run out later. This way when a player actually buys an ultra rare they feel like they got lucky and when its not there, it is known or assumed that it isn't there for anyone. The individual player doesn't open a box and find nothing of value.

The last possible option would be a trading house where players could list their weapons for sale. However each sale would incur a nominal real currency fee for 'shipping' costs.

Not perfect ideas. But they fend off frustration while still putting something in BW's pockets. Although the store may be vulnerable to hoarders.

[CosmicBuffalo]

Bump for the newbies!

[Ziegrif]

Tis a relevant read.
A bump of worth.
I applaud thee.

[CosmicBuffalo]

Thank you, sir!

Sorry, I've been busy pugging

[Evil]

That must have been one long game.

[Moby]

Evil Mastered wrote...

That must have been one long game.

Hiding outside the map on Hydra will do that, man.

[CosmicBuffalo]

I've got an Xbox One with several games, and yet I've spent 100 times the hours on Mass Effect since I bought it... Can't put this game down XD

[ArenthianSniper]

CosmicBuffalo wrote...

I've got an Xbox One with several games, and yet I've spent 100 times the hours on Mass Effect since I bought it... Can't put this game down XD

Only for skyrim will I put ME down. I do expect to be on ME3 tonight.

Missed this 11 months ago this was a good read.

Modifié par ArenthianSniper, 31 janvier 2014 - 12:38 .