466 réponses à ce sujet

[IMNOTCRAZYiminsane]

Here is another way play the entire game and stop right after u say goodbye to ur lover on earth boom! Perfect ending :3

[Giantdeathrobot]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

I'm not sure if the ''just a machine'' people are trolling. One could easily say a human is ''just an animal'' and that ''fluids are not alive''. Because that's what we are, at the basic level. Fluids and chemical compounds. Reductive arguments are simply silly.

Is Legion trolling? http://youtu.be/fiaedZF72gg?t=31s

No. This entire section got retconned in ME3. Legion got retconned. The writer for Legion and EDI in ME2 said so himself. They were turned completely into things they were never meant to be.

You cling to that video like it made all arguments against you null and void. Legion made a factual statement; data files can be changed, and this will influence a synthetic's behavior, in this case to produce a desirable effect. That's all he says. He never claimed that Geth are not alive or deserve destruction or whatnot. People (not targeting you) are taking this difference into a justification that the Geth are lesser or more expendable or whatever, when it's just that; a difference.

[SeptimusMagistos]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Is a data file alive?

As long as it's sufficiently complex, yes.

We've been over this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Seboist wrote...

Really sad how the Geth go from being one of the few truly alien beings(like the Thorian and Rachni) with their collective intelligence to just being your run of the mill generic robots if you go for peace or wipe out the quarians.

The Geth were unique and really neat in ME1 and ME2. EDI was special in ME2. WTF happened in ME3?

@ Giantdeathrobot -- that video is important. Did you listen to Legion use the word racist? The Geth are data files. They are not those things walking around. They are completely alien to us. It took over 1000 data files to make one like Legion. We cannot judge them by the same standards we judge our own species. That is anthropomorphizing.

And now suddenly they no longer want to be Geth. Legion makes that decision unilaterally for the consensus. It didn't even ask. It just decided to rewrite the entire consensus and change what they are.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 16 mars 2013 - 04:37 .

[Strangewrex]

They were ready to face the gates of Android Hell (Lol, Portal) itself if need be, so long as their Creators lived.
I don't call that Genocide. I call it an unfortunate, but acceptable, loss.
You wouldn't call it "Genocide" if a Chess Player let all their pawns get captured just to get an opportunity to move their queen into a Checkmate, would you?

Modifié par Strangewrex, 16 mars 2013 - 05:30 .

[Giantdeathrobot]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Really sad how the Geth go from being one of the few truly alien beings(like the Thorian and Rachni) with their collective intelligence to just being your run of the mill generic robots if you go for peace or wipe out the quarians.

The Geth were unique and really neat in ME1 and ME2. EDI was special in ME2. WTF happened in ME3?

@ Giantdeathrobot -- that video is important. Did you listen to Legion use the word racist? The Geth are data files. They are not those things walking around. They are completely alien to us. It took over 1000 data files to make one like Legion. We cannot judge them by the same standards we judge our own species. That is anthropomorphizing.

And now suddenly they no longer want to be Geth. Legion makes that decision unilaterally for the consensus. It didn't even ask. It just decided to rewrite the entire consensus and change what they are.

And exactly how does that contradict what I said? My point is that this difference can't be used as a basis for the Geth deserving to be killed, nor does it make them less alive then organics. Geth can walk around and make decisions of their own, that alone makes them sentient and alive. Those people who want to send them to the flames are those who anthropomorphize, actually.

[DeinonSlayer]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Council sent emissaries to make contact with the Geth. They were shot down on sight upon entering Geth territory, which is why the Council blockaded every relay going into the Perseus Veil. As time went by, it became apparent that the Geth weren't planning to invade the rest of the galaxy, and the blockade was scaled back until eventually only patrols remained (ME1 timeline).

Since Shepard never brings this up in ME2 or 3 with Legion or anyone else, I suspect it was an ME1 plot point that was completely forgotten about and subject to a sort of soft retcon, with the Council being more likely to just have sealed off the geth without bothering to contact them. It makes the story fit rather more neatly and fits the more sympathetic portrayal of the geth later on.

I call it the "Sweep-the-mountain-of-corpses-under-the-rug-and-pretend-they-never-existed" gambit.

It was still mentioned tangentally in conversations with Legion ("You mean you aren't even trying to make peace?" or, "Nothing gets solved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you"). Geth isolationism was reinforced in the ME2 codex, as well, but outside of the planet description of Haestrom, there is no reference to it in ME3. A few references to the genocide itself were made after the end of the Rannoch campaign ("unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War," and the conversation with EDI), but nothing as explicit as the dialogue in ME1. They mumbled about it from that point forward.

Xilizhra wrote...

Don't forget, we're talking about the organization which categorically outlawed artificial intelligence before the Geth uprising - the Geth have no reason to trust them, either. And when has the Council ever given a damn about the Quarians? Shepard can say as much when you meet the Admirals in ME3. They stripped them of their embassy and blocked their colonization efforts. As an antagonist to both parties, the Council would be more likely to impede negotiations than anything else.

Regrettably possible, but the quarians could have reached out to Hackett's coalition instead of trying for war immediately, if the Council wouldn't be helpful.

The Alliance had no diplomatic contact with the Quarians prior to the war because they never entered Alliance space. Perhaps they could have reached out, perhaps not with Reapers already on the prowl - if a single one found the flotilla while they were still in space, they'd be dead. You're right, though - three hundred years of surviving on their own led them to become an insular people (most recently, there was a string of Cerberus Daily News stories where Eldfell-Ashland was accusing them of attacking one of their ships, petitioning the Council to levy sanctions, when it turned out the Collectors actually did it). They don't expect anyone to help them, so they try solve their own problems first without seeking that help.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 16 mars 2013 - 04:52 .

[Xilizhra]

It was still mentioned tangentally in conversations with Legion ("You mean you aren't even trying to make peace?" or, "Nothing gets solved if you hide behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you"). Geth isolationism was reinforced in the ME2 codex, as well, but outside of the planet description of Haestrom, there is no reference to it in ME3. A few references to the genocide itself were made after the end of the Rannoch campaign ("unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War," and the conversation with EDI), but nothing as explicit as the dialogue in ME1.

Hiding was mentioned, killing anyone who approached not at all. The geth were isolationist, but once it was decided they were going to be sympathetic in ME2, the violent part was dropped entirely. The quarian genocide was always present, and I don't think actually intended to be swept under the rug; however, it was also seen as a tragedy of circumstance and a cycle that could be broken.

The Alliance had no diplomatic contact with the Quarians prior to the war because they never entered Alliance space. Perhaps they could have reached out, perhaps not with Reapers already on the prowl - if a single one found the flotilla while they were still in space, they'd be dead. You're right, though - three hundred years of surviving on their own led them to become an insular people (most recently, there was a string of Cerberus Daily News stories where Eldfell-Ashland was accusing them of attacking one of their ships, petitioning the Council to levy sanctions, when it turned out the Collectors actually did it). They don't expect anyone to help them, so they try solve their own problems first without seeking that help.

Quarians wouldn't be useful to the Reapers for harvesting purposes at all; I seriously doubt the Reapers would expend special effort to chase down a sufficiently elusive Migrant Fleet until the rest was dealt with.

[AlanC9]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...
You cling to that video like it made all arguments against you null and void. Legion made a factual statement; data files can be changed, and this will influence a synthetic's behavior, in this case to produce a desirable effect. That's all he says. He never claimed that Geth are not alive or deserve destruction or whatnot. People (not targeting you) are taking this difference into a justification that the Geth are lesser or more expendable or whatever, when it's just that; a difference.

I'm not even sure it's a difference. Organic minds can be altered with the right tech too.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quarians wouldn't be useful to the Reapers for harvesting purposes at all

EDI does not agree.

Modifié par Khelish, 16 mars 2013 - 05:33 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Giantdeathrobot wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Really sad how the Geth go from being one of the few truly alien beings(like the Thorian and Rachni) with their collective intelligence to just being your run of the mill generic robots if you go for peace or wipe out the quarians.

The Geth were unique and really neat in ME1 and ME2. EDI was special in ME2. WTF happened in ME3?

@ Giantdeathrobot -- that video is important. Did you listen to Legion use the word racist? The Geth are data files. They are not those things walking around. They are completely alien to us. It took over 1000 data files to make one like Legion. We cannot judge them by the same standards we judge our own species. That is anthropomorphizing.

And now suddenly they no longer want to be Geth. Legion makes that decision unilaterally for the consensus. It didn't even ask. It just decided to rewrite the entire consensus and change what they are.

And exactly how does that contradict what I said? My point is that this difference can't be used as a basis for the Geth deserving to be killed, nor does it make them less alive then organics. Geth can walk around and make decisions of their own, that alone makes them sentient and alive. Those people who want to send them to the flames are those who anthropomorphize, actually.

No. You don't know what becomes of them after the rewrite. Let the Quarians deal with them.

Without the reaper signal they became as dumb as varren. In a group they were able to perform complex tasks, but they were not intelligent. Legion wanted to upload the code so they would be able to do these things as individuals. Let the Quarians deal with them.

Sapient.
Sentient.
Learn the difference.

But the thing is I'm not going to send myself into the beam to synthesize and rewrite the entire galaxy to save the geth. Nor am I going to send electrocute myself and die, lose all connection with my own kind, and upload a copy of my brain into a hairbrained scheme of some mad Catalyst to control the reapers and create some new AI based on my brain and hope it works out either. I'm shooting the tube. It's the best option of the three. It's the safest option.

If you played your cards right in ME2 you don't need them anyway, especially if you have a PC because the galactic readiness thing is stupid.

[eddieoctane]

I still have issues with the genocide of the Geth, but not because I hate making a tough choice. Making a weapon designed to kill Reapers also kill non-Reapers in order to force a "lesser of evils" choice is bull. First, there is no in-game or real-world logic to explain how it is even possible that the red kool-aid targets Reaper code, since the only thing remotely "evil" in the Geth is the snippets of 0's and 1's that they acquired from the Reapers. I could understand killing off EDI, as Reaper hardware was involved in her construction and there could be some artifact that resonates on a specific frequency that the crimson-colored suicide could interact with in order to cause various undesirable side effects.

The Geth were only killed off in order to make destroying the Reapers to seem like a potentially bad decision, though letting the relays go supernova as a result would have had much of the same effect without being outright genocide. Do you condemn every inhabited planet within a few dozen light years of a relay in order to end the threat once and for all? Yes, that's much darker, but it also fits within the logic of the game. As it stands, the death of the Geth is a contrived plot point to make what should have been an off switch have negative ramifications, especially when that option has the possible outcome of the hero surviving.

[Voodoo2015]

Strangewrex wrote...

Your point being that you treat your gameboy as a living being? I think someone needs a little time in the Hug-jacket.

You'r gameboy don't think and act on it on its own, dont have speatch or can tell between right and wrong.
An gameboy is not willing to learn new things and do not ask things like, do this unit have a soul?

What is the criteria for life?

[Voodoo2015]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
What is the reaper code? It is a data file.

What is it wanting to do? Upload a data file. Again, is a data file alive?

Did you know that you are made ​​up of an ancient data files called Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA).
DNA makes you who you are and a damaged to the DNA code can create lot of failures in your system. An extra limb, maby only one eye, canser.

You are composed of cells (data files) and DNA (codes) are you alive?

Modifié par Voodoo2015, 16 mars 2013 - 08:31 .

[Alien Number Six]

I don't trust the Geth. I don't trust the Krogan. They both need to go if Humans will have a fighting chance after the war.

[78stonewobble]

Voodoo2015 wrote...
Did you know that you are made ​​up of an ancient data files called Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA).
DNA makes you who you are and a damaged to the DNA code can create lot of failures in your system. An extra limb, maby only one eye, canser.

You are composed of cells (data files) and DNA (codes) are you alive?

Agreed...

I'm still not convinced that people are more than 5-10 percent "sentient".

The rest is "pre-programmed" natural instinct.

[Voodoo2015]

78stonewobble wrote...

Voodoo2015 wrote...
Did you know that you are made ​​up of an ancient data files called Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA).
DNA makes you who you are and a damaged to the DNA code can create lot of failures in your system. An extra limb, maby only one eye, canser.

You are composed of cells (data files) and DNA (codes) are you alive?

Agreed...

I'm still not convinced that people are more than 5-10 percent "sentient".

The rest is "pre-programmed" natural instinct.

You are prob right. No one knows how the human bodey works completely.

The Limbic system in the brain controls a lot of our primitive behavior that dates back to the first humanoid on earth if not even further back. And we dont have any control over that system we just follow (programmed).

So humans are also machines in a way.

[78stonewobble]

Voodoo2015 wrote...
You are prob right. No one knows how the human bodey works completely.

The Limbic system in the brain controls a lot of our primitive behavior that dates back to the first humanoid on earth if not even further back. And we dont have any control over that system we just follow (programmed).

So humans are also machines in a way.

Well there is the primitive or base behaviour: Like breathing, but also wanting to eg. procreate.

However, what has become "higher level" stuff, like love and choosing the paint on the walls does still seem very predetermined.

Most of us rarely get to choose who we fall in love with or what our favorite colour is.

We are maybe on the verge on being able to affect this, but really control ourselves? Not so much.

[KiwiQuiche]

This didn't even make me smile. Try harder.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Yo dawg, I heard you don't killing the Geth at your red ending.

So you should kill them before so that so you don't kill them at the end and feel bad!

[M Hedonist]

IllusiveManJr wrote...

Legion was proof that they're just machines who desire to be something more but never can be.

I don't think you've paid a lot attention.

[o Ventus]

Voodoo2015 wrote...

You are prob right. No one knows how the human bodey works completely.

The Limbic system in the brain controls a lot of our primitive behavior that dates back to the first humanoid on earth if not even further back. And we dont have any control over that system we just follow (programmed).

So humans are also machines in a way.

1. Actually, we know a great deal about how the body works. The human genome has been mapped since 1996.

2. The limbic system controls our emotional functions and our memories, as well as our sense of smell. There's an abolitionist reason for all of these things to exist. I'm not sure what your point is.

[Voodoo2015]

78stonewobble wrote...

Voodoo2015 wrote...
You are prob right. No one knows how the human bodey works completely.

The Limbic system in the brain controls a lot of our primitive behavior that dates back to the first humanoid on earth if not even further back. And we dont have any control over that system we just follow (programmed).

So humans are also machines in a way.

Well there is the primitive or base behaviour: Like breathing, but also wanting to eg. procreate.

However, what has become "higher level" stuff, like love and choosing the paint on the walls does still seem very predetermined.

Most of us rarely get to choose who we fall in love with or what our favorite colour is.

We are maybe on the verge on being able to affect this, but really control ourselves? Not so much.

True . Of course that is how we are, we strive to understand and evolve as living beings.
Protect our loved ones, to hide from danger (fleeing instinct) and reflexes are controlled from there.

But everything is controlled from the brain as a big mainframe that sends electrical impulses around to the data files that are full of computer codes.

And so do the Geth.

[OdanUrr]

Strangewrex wrote...

Your point being that you treat your gameboy as a living being? I think someone needs a little time in the Hug-jacket.

You're clearly being obtuse. Science fiction has explored to great lengths the idea that robots may become sapient, that they might develop a sense of self and become "alive." Are aliens less "alive" than humans for the sake of being alien? Is "alive" a condition restricted solely to beings of flesh and blood? What is a machine? After all, humans are machines themselves if of a different composition. I remember a dialogue between Will Smith's character, Del Spooner, and Sonny in "I, Robot." In the film, Spooner argues that robots are simply an imitation of life, "Can a robot write a symphony? Can a robot turn a canvas into a beautiful masterpiece?" To which Sonny replies, "Can you, detective?"

What is your criteria? How do you define what is and what isn't a "living being"?

Modifié par OdanUrr, 16 mars 2013 - 02:44 .

[Voodoo2015]

o Ventus wrote...

Voodoo2015 wrote...

You are prob right. No one knows how the human bodey works completely.

The Limbic system in the brain controls a lot of our primitive behavior that dates back to the first humanoid on earth if not even further back. And we dont have any control over that system we just follow (programmed).

So humans are also machines in a way.

1. Actually, we know a great deal about how the body works. The human genome has been mapped since 1996.

2. The limbic system controls our emotional functions and our memories, as well as our sense of smell. There's an abolitionist reason for all of these things to exist. I'm not sure what your point is.

Yes we know allot but not all and we learn new things all the time, we strive to become better, stronger.
That's what makes us alive and at the top on the food chain.
And there are things about the human, despite all the research we do not know. And what we can become.

My point is that we seek after things like, knowledge, developed for the better, stronger, individuals. And we counts as living things.

The Geth did the same thing. So why can't They have a soul.