157 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

TJPags wrote...
You didn't.

But clearly, the tone of this thread is that people want that.  And the whole "tone wheel" is starting to sound to me like an "emotion wheel".  And since we know BW hates a toggle, and has been limiting options in games lately (IMO) I want to make it clear that not everyone is interested in an emotional PC.

Then pick stoic for your tone.

Yep. It's really stupid to kill off characters that don't matter to the
player and try to make it all dramatic. The player just shrugs and moves
on.

I think it's more just a matter of how one approaches their roleplaying.  For some it will be a struggle, while for others it will still work (I had zero issue feeling emotion for Hawke's sibling, but Jenkins was mostly just a comic relief tongue in cheek kill based on pop culture meme).

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Plaintiff wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Those scenes could have been powerful if Hawke was actually shown in Lothering with his or her family. The player never gets to know the Hawke family much at all, and when they start dying off I couldn't care less.

The thread is not about whether the player cares about the deaths of Hawke's family, it's about Hawke's ability to express emotion.

If the player is not emotionally invested in the characters who die, Hawke's emotions don't matter one way or the other. It's like when Carver or Bethany is killed. Even though Hawke looks distressed, it's a wasted effort because there is no connection between the characters and the player. We literally knew them for like five minutes before they were killed.

If you're going to kill off a character in a game, it has to be a character that the player actually has spent time with and has become fond of. Showing the PC in mourning would actually be effective in that case.

Jenkins, Wilson, Mhairi, Daveth, Jory, Duncan, Cailan.

Yep. It's really stupid to kill off characters that don't matter to the player and try to make it all dramatic. The player just shrugs and moves on.

The player doesn't have to care about any death, why are you assuming that this must be the case? Why do you think Bioware even wants you to care when Bethany or Carver die early on?

Character death occurs to serve a narrative purpose, not to tug on your heartstrings for no reason.

I assumed that because of how dramatic the whole thing was. In the end, it just felt forced and unnecessary. Too many mages in the party? Kill off Bethany. Same goes for Carver if you're a warrior or a rogue.

Like I said, if you actually got to know those characters before that happened, it might have been a better scene. The same can be said when people ask Hawke if he or she misses Ferelden. Well, I never got to experience it as Hawke so I honeslty can't even tell you.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 mars 2013 - 04:00 .

[dragondreamer]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never buy into the idea that the characters are "homicidal sociopath" since one could argue that the attacks are typically in self-defense. When wandering Kirkwall, it was aggressive mobs attacking me, not me looking to stir up trouble.

Even if you kill in self defense (in which not all battles are- a few murders can be player provoked, emphasis on "can", such as the prisoner in Ostagar), the fact that your character shrugs that off and is not at all psychologically effected is a pretty heavy hint towards some serious mental-emotional issues.

"Can" is the key word there.  A player can also choose not to kill the prisoner.  My Warden didn't kill him, and he also spared most of the characters he was allowed to spare.  A sociopath is someone who cannot feel empathy for others.  You don't have to be a sociopath to kill someone, or raising an army would be difficult.

When it came to my Warden for example, his reasons for killing someone or something fell into three categories that could sometimes overlap:

1.  Self-defense.
This is just common-sense in most situations where you have to kill or be killed.  This can also be pre-emptive in situations where it's clear that it's impossible to get through an area without a confrontation. 

2.  Duty.
Grey Wardens learn early that sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to do what has to be done, even if it's ugly.  My Warden tried to avoid these situations, but it isn't always possible.  A lot of the Orzammar part of the game fell under this.  Attacks on Loghain's people also fell under this.  

3.  Justice.
This is where his decisions are very debatable because my Warden's idea of "right" and "wrong" are his own, and reflect both his history and his personal feelings.  This only happened once, that I can recall, even though there was at least another close call.  As far as my Warden was concerned, Loghain had gone far beyond the pale, and he felt he had to die for justice to be done.  He'd probably argue that duty was also a big deal here, but it was mostly personal for him by this point.  Given some of his past decisions, executing Loghain was kinda hypocritical, but I'm arguing that my Warden isn't a sociopath, not that he's a saint or a sparkling model of mental health.

It's also not really the game's place to determine your character's mental issues or lack of them.  My Warden actually *does* have PTSD, but it mostly arises from a trauma in his childhood that also resulted in some repressed memories.  That isn't reflected in-game aside from the way I had him react in certain situations, and I was fine with that.  And yes, he is a sensitive and caring sort,  psychological disorders and all.  And I imagine other people have Wardens that are much more resilient in nature.  

[deuce985]

I think it's realistic to expect more tones for the context of the situations in DA3. DA2 only featured two tones for each tone type. That obviously led to some awkward responses when your only response is a 'diplomatic' tone when someone is dying. You wanted to show a lot of compassion in that situation but couldn't. Pretty sure Bioware realized this. Or at least I hope.

Modifié par deuce985, 16 mars 2013 - 04:07 .

[MisanthropePrime]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never buy into the idea that the characters are "homicidal sociopath" since one could argue that the attacks are typically in self-defense. When wandering Kirkwall, it was aggressive mobs attacking me, not me looking to stir up trouble.

Even if you kill in self defense (in which not all battles are- a few murders can be player provoked, emphasis on "can", such as the prisoner in Ostagar), the fact that your character shrugs that off and is not at all psychologically effected is a pretty heavy hint towards some serious mental-emotional issues.

That's why I said typically.  Your player definitely can be a sociopath.  But fighting waves of enemies doesn't mean that one must be.

There's an aspect of scale that is perhaps implausible and definitely fantasy, but it's pretty much a trope.  Aragorn brutally kills copious amounts of hostiles but appears to still be reasonably well adjusted and compassionate, for example.

I actually always found Aragorn as pretty creepy, probably because he's a guy who can kill hundreds and yet remain excruciatingly dull.

[brushyourteeth]

deuce985 wrote...

I think it makes to expect more tones for the context of the situations in DA3. DA2 only featured two tones for each tone type. That obviously led to some awkward responses when your only response is a 'diplomatic' tone when someone is dying. Pretty sure Bioware realized this. Or at least hope. More emotional tones only make sense to implement.

... or sarcastic. 

Modifié par brushyourteeth, 16 mars 2013 - 04:07 .

[deuce985]

brushyourteeth wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

I think it makes to expect more tones for the context of the situations in DA3. DA2 only featured two tones for each tone type. That obviously led to some awkward responses when your only response is a 'diplomatic' tone when someone is dying. Pretty sure Bioware realized this. Or at least hope. More emotional tones only make sense to implement.

... or sarcastic. 

Even in the aggressive tone sometimes I wanted to at least show some compassion. I mean c'mon. I wasn't some sociopath. Bioware should've just let me flip my siblings off using that tone in DA2 as they died. Or any tone really because they all lacked compassion for the death scenes. I could understand leaving the aggressive tone open to not showing any compassion at all but the diplomatic one should've been the one to show the most...and it doesn't.

Modifié par deuce985, 16 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's more just a matter of how one approaches their roleplaying.  For some it will be a struggle, while for others it will still work (I had zero issue feeling emotion for Hawke's sibling, but Jenkins was mostly just a comic relief tongue in cheek kill based on pop culture meme).

I wasn't upset when Duncan died. I barely knew him. However, I ended up feeling bad later on when talking about him with Alistair. You got to know a little bit about Duncan's character through this other character who was still alive and in mourning.

With Hawke's mother, I never got that. She talks about Bethany or Carver a little bit, but then just goes on like nothing happened. Alistair brought up Duncan a lot in conversations and it seemed like it was something he was dealing with throughout the entire game.

Mama Hawke dying is another example of forced and unnecessary deaths. Beyond the fact that the whole scene was incredibly stupid (zombie mom!), the player has no reason to give a crap about his mother because you never get to know her.

You talk to her a few times about the estate and the family wealth, but that's about it. Then Bioware throws in the "Hawke is sad" moment and his friends or love interest pays him a visit to tell him that everything's okay, and apparently that's enough because he seems to get over it rather quickly. Player shrugs and moves on.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 16 mars 2013 - 04:18 .

[Absafraginlootly]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's more just a matter of how one approaches their roleplaying.  For some it will be a struggle, while for others it will still work (I had zero issue feeling emotion for Hawke's sibling, but Jenkins was mostly just a comic relief tongue in cheek kill based on pop culture meme).

I wasn't upset when Duncan died. I barely knew him. However, I ended up feeling bad later on when talking about him with Alistair. You got to know a little bit about Duncan's character through this other character who was still alive and in mourning.

With Hawke's mother, I never got that. She talks about Bethany or Carver a little bit, but then just goes on like nothing happened. Alistair brought up Duncan a lot in conversations and it seemed like it was something he was dealing with throughout the entire game.

Mama Hawke dying is another example of forced and unnecessary deaths. Beyond the fact that the whole scene was incredibly stupid (zombie mom!), the player has no reason to give a crap about his mother because you never get to know her.

You talk to her a few times about the estate and the family wealth, but that's about it. Then Bioware throws in the "Hawke is sad" moment and his friends or love interest pays him a visit to tell him that everything's okay, and apparently that's enough because he seems to get over it rather quickly. Player shrugs and moves on.

I cried when Leandra died. No video game has made me do that before or since, made me sad/angry yes, but no actual tears. 

Not saying your point is invalid or anything, I actually agree about the whole Duncan thing, just that this reaction (the player not giving a crap) isn't the only one. 

[Sharn01]

I hated Leandra, I don't believe I have ever seen a more selfish parent portrayed in a game that was not a villain.

[Fredward]

Not something I'd be all that interested in but I don't object to its existence.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

The player doesn't have to care about any death, why are you assuming that this must be the case? Why do you think Bioware even wants you to care when Bethany or Carver die early on?

Character death occurs to serve a narrative purpose, not to tug on your heartstrings for no reason.

Time to bring up Frankenmom, the narrative purpose of that event was to give Hawke and the Player a reason to hate mages and feel loss at the hands of a mage (So sayeth Mary Kirby), how can that death serve it's narrative purpose if the Player doesnt care about Leandra and what happens to her?

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The player doesn't have to care about any death, why are you assuming that this must be the case? Why do you think Bioware even wants you to care when Bethany or Carver die early on?

Character death occurs to serve a narrative purpose, not to tug on your heartstrings for no reason.

Time to bring up Frankenmom, the narrative purpose of that event was to give Hawke and the Player a reason to hate mages and feel loss at the hands of a mage (So sayeth Mary Kirby), how can that death serve it's narrative purpose if the Player doesnt care about Leandra and what happens to her?

It's called roleplaying.

I know what grief feels like. I don't need to feel any particular sorrow for Leandra in order to understand how Hawke is feeling.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

sandalisthemaker wrote...
The same way we could choose a tone of voice, how about letting us choose a reaction to certain situations? We could choose to have our Inquisitor be stoic and emotionless, or profoundly moved in a positive or negative way.

I'm skeptic about this. The tone voice itself is already severely limiting my roleplaying option - It's ended up as A, B and C sound choice for a goody-goody friendly Hawke character.  I doubt the choice of reaction could greatly help. 

But it's still better than allowing BioWare rule out everything about the protagonist without input from players.

[BeatoSama]

You aren't going to be forced to react in some way. It'll probably be somewhat similar to paragon/renegade interrupts but based on emotions instead of morality.

Modifié par BeatoSama, 16 mars 2013 - 09:37 .

[Direwolf0294]

I wouldn't have a problem with them putting some emotion and set characterisation into the PC, similar to what they did with Shepard in ME3. The problem I had with ME3 was that the new Shepard didn't match the Shepard I'd played as for the past two games, but since we'll be playing as an entirely new character in DA3 (so not the Warden or Hawke) that's not going to be an issue.

I mean, it would probably stop me from replaying the game, in the same way I don't replay the Mass Effect games other than to do a playthrough that's exactly the same as my previous playthroughts but on a harder difficulty and with the DLC, but for the first time around it could be cool.

[mlgumm]

Does this mean that emotion is replacing morality as the way that we make choices? Or will it be emotion in some, and morality in others?

Like, will happiness be yellow, and sadness purple, and anger green, the way good is blue and ruthless is red? If so, I say we call this the rainbow wheel henceforth.

[BeatoSama]

No there's going to be a new wheel in addition to the already existing tone wheel and action wheel.

[mlgumm]

Too bad. I was actually growing rather fond of the rainbow wheel idea.

[The Elder King]

As Allan suggested, it's highly possible that in the emotion wheel there'll be a "stoic" option, so you choose to not show emotions.
I think this is a good concept. With this wheel the player will have control on the PC's emotions.
My only concern on this wheel is on the number of options we'll get. I hope we'll not get limited to three options: since the dialogue wheel has at least six slots. we could have more than three option.

[BeatoSama]

I hope there will be different emotions for different situations.

[Nightdragon8]

I agree with the sibling death the first time, honestly didn't really faze me at all. It was more like Well.. he died. However Bethany's death in the deeproads did effect me abit was kind of a shock really. I even debated on wither or not I should reload and do it all over again... (I didn't and deicided to live with the consequences)

The mothers death.... ehh.... I was cought between horror and laughter to be honest... Cause while it was a sad scene.. it was like omg really?? The bigger shock was with the First Enchanter helping him with his "research"

[The Elder King]

BeatoSama wrote...

I hope there will be different emotions for different situations.

Yeah, I agree.

[Absafraginlootly]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's called roleplaying.

I know what grief feels like. I don't need to feel any particular sorrow for Leandra in order to understand how Hawke is feeling.

This ^

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The player doesn't have to care about any death, why are you assuming that this must be the case? Why do you think Bioware even wants you to care when Bethany or Carver die early on?

Character death occurs to serve a narrative purpose, not to tug on your heartstrings for no reason.

Time to bring up Frankenmom, the narrative purpose of that event was to give Hawke and the Player a reason to hate mages and feel loss at the hands of a mage (So sayeth Mary Kirby), how can that death serve it's narrative purpose if the Player doesnt care about Leandra and what happens to her?

It's called roleplaying.

I know what grief feels like. I don't need to feel any particular sorrow for Leandra in order to understand how Hawke is feeling.

And that is why Dragon Age 2 was a huge failure, you are right and the player doesnt have to care about a characters death but considering that the game puts you in the role of a character who supposedly cares about his family then the devs should try their hardest to make the player care about those characters as well and at least feel something when something happens to them.

Personally I feel that in a video game that strives to have a strong narrative focus the writers should strive to give the player a stronger emotional bond with the character they are playing, this is not just about making the player feel like a powerful mage or badass space marine but also making them feel fear, anger, sorrow and confusion in relation to what the PC would be feeling as well, it is why I know movie critics are full of **** when they say "video games will never be an art form" as the truth is the video games have the potential to be a far more powerful artform than movies can ever hope to be, it all depends on how the developer utilises that potential.

Take the Walking Dead for example, the game simply wouldnt have worked if the player felt nothing for Clementine and if you watch some of the ending reaction videos you will see that the ending was a lot stronger because of it.

Modifié par Gandalf-the-Fabulous, 16 mars 2013 - 01:29 .