157 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

Since the PC isn't me, it's easy to roleplay said character's sadness if a relatively unknown character dies who was of great import to the PC.

That said, i would prefer to feel something for the characters. It makes the game that much more impactful.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Since the PC isn't me, it's easy to roleplay said character's sadness if a relatively unknown character dies who was of great import to the PC.

That said, i would prefer to feel something for the characters. It makes the game that much more impactful.

What is the point of pretending to feel something if you dont though? The game is supposed to invoke emotion not rely on the player to pretend that the game is invoking emotion, that would be like pretending to enjoy the game instead of actually enjoying it.

[Volus Warlord]

Eww no.

Option to be more badass preferable.

[gonzalez.melissa53]

Absafraginlootly wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it's more just a matter of how one approaches their roleplaying.  For some it will be a struggle, while for others it will still work (I had zero issue feeling emotion for Hawke's sibling, but Jenkins was mostly just a comic relief tongue in cheek kill based on pop culture meme).

I wasn't upset when Duncan died. I barely knew him. However, I ended up feeling bad later on when talking about him with Alistair. You got to know a little bit about Duncan's character through this other character who was still alive and in mourning.

With Hawke's mother, I never got that. She talks about Bethany or Carver a little bit, but then just goes on like nothing happened. Alistair brought up Duncan a lot in conversations and it seemed like it was something he was dealing with throughout the entire game.

Mama Hawke dying is another example of forced and unnecessary deaths. Beyond the fact that the whole scene was incredibly stupid (zombie mom!), the player has no reason to give a crap about his mother because you never get to know her.

You talk to her a few times about the estate and the family wealth, but that's about it. Then Bioware throws in the "Hawke is sad" moment and his friends or love interest pays him a visit to tell him that everything's okay, and apparently that's enough because he seems to get over it rather quickly. Player shrugs and moves on.

I cried when Leandra died. No video game has made me do that before or since, made me sad/angry yes, but no actual tears. 

Not saying your point is invalid or anything, I actually agree about the whole Duncan thing, just that this reaction (the player not giving a crap) isn't the only one. 

I cried at her death too! I think many players couldn't didn't form an attachment to her because of her very human response to the lose of Carver/Bethany. It's hard to see a Mother fall so short of what you would want for them. Her blame and resentment of Hawke after the attack is a hard pill to swallow. I'm sure our own real life experiences color at least to some degree how we view her. My own mother is very human XD not a bad mom mind you but she has her flaws, I know of them and forgive/over look them. This made it easy for me to look at Leandra as a person and not just the insensitive Mother who couldn't feel the pain of her eldest. I came to see the love she had for her kids although selfish was genuine.

[SgtElias]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

What is the point of pretending to feel something if you dont though?

I don't think that was the intended message, exactly.

If my next-door-neighbor's mother dies in a car accident, I can logically understand that they'll probably be very upset about it. I'm not upset, necessarily, but I can understand that someone who'd just lost their mother would be distraught.

In the same way, even if I the player haven't developed an emotional tie to my siblings, I know that my character would probably still mourn them. And if my character wouldn't mourn their sibling for whatever reason, and really does feel nothing, that's roleplaying, too.

If it's important to you to feel everything as your character feels it, then fair enough. But it's not important to everyone. I know that I've played characters who were, well, jerks, and I'd cringe as I chose their dialogue options; I certainly wasn't feeling what they were feeling. But that was in character for them, so those were the options I picked.

As to the topic, however, I'm down with more "sensetive" options. I usually play my first couple characters as "sensetive" or "diplomatic," anyway, so I'm always up for more options to express that.

Modifié par SgtElias, 16 mars 2013 - 02:03 .

[TJPags]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Since the PC isn't me, it's easy to roleplay said character's sadness if a relatively unknown character dies who was of great import to the PC.

That said, i would prefer to feel something for the characters. It makes the game that much more impactful.

What is the point of pretending to feel something if you dont though? The game is supposed to invoke emotion not rely on the player to pretend that the game is invoking emotion, that would be like pretending to enjoy the game instead of actually enjoying it.

This.

Sorry, I can't get into 'grief' for my PC if I don't understand WHY they should feel grief.

Duncan died?  For most of my wardens, he ripped me away from my family against my wishes.  He told me nothing about what was coming, sent me out to hunt Darkspawn without even preparing me for what they were, callously killed another recruit for being afraid.  Why should I care that he died?

Carver/Bethany died in the first five minutes?  Sorry, you can't just label someone "sibling" and expect me to dredge up feeling.  What kind of relationship did Hawke and the dead sibling have?  Who knows?  That's only there from your head cannon - and in my head, I can't create that relationship in 5 minutes, so I can't feel some emotion.

Second sibling dies/gets taken away?  I felt anger, not grief.

Mom dies?  Yes, I felt something there (even though I really couldn't stand the shrewish, selfish witch) even though it was mainly anger and shock at the entire zombie thing.  But considering I found her annoying - and the reason for what happened to my second sibling - I certainly wasn't breaking into tears.

Hell, I felt more emotion when Tamlen showed up as a Shriek.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

TJPags wrote...
You didn't.

But clearly, the tone of this thread is that people want that. And the whole "tone wheel" is starting to sound to me like an "emotion wheel". And since we know BW hates a toggle, and has been limiting options in games lately (IMO) I want to make it clear that not everyone is interested in an emotional PC.

Then pick stoic for your tone.

See, this is why I actually prefer a silent PC.  Because then I can have the tone I want to have.

That said (no, I don't intend to spark debate on silent v voiced PC) is tone going to work like DA2, where the game locks into your 'dominant' tone and assumes it from then on?  Because I'd much rather choose my own tone for each interaction.

Of course, I can also see it very quickly getting annoying as I sit there to choose my tone,then my response, every time I open my mouth.

Modifié par TJPags, 16 mars 2013 - 02:09 .

[The Hierophant]

People seriously cried at Leandra's death? I thought the scene was unintentionally comical as it looked like something from a Tim Burton flick.

More importantly, along with an option to be more sensitive, there should be an option to be apathetic.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 16 mars 2013 - 02:17 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I'd much prefer more humorous reactions then sensitive, there was humorous remarks in DA2 but they made Hawke sound like a dick, you can be funny without being a ass.

The Hierophant wrote...

People seriously cried at Leandra's death? I thought the scene was unintentionally comical as it looked like something from a Tim Burton flick.

I felt it was over done, it was like when a bad actor or actress tries too put too much emotion into a part they are playing.

Modifié par DinoSteve, 16 mars 2013 - 02:21 .

[Solmanian]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I never buy into the idea that the characters are "homicidal sociopath" since one could argue that the attacks are typically in self-defense. When wandering Kirkwall, it was aggressive mobs attacking me, not me looking to stir up trouble.

I'm a veteran who saw substantial combat duty, as do many of my friends. It changes you. Some found religion, others became etheists, and some just got realy quiet. Though it was in different ways, they all changed. You can't kill people, especialy on a regular basis, without emotional repercussions. We may not have become "homicidal socipath" but we defintely didn't come out of unscathed.

[Jarl Johnnie Walker]

Maybe there is no room for sensitive Hawk in the world. Hawk sees how deplorable the land is and the things that dwell within it.
Hawk witnesses that the roads are filled with decay. The accumulated filth of human deceit and murder will eventually engulf the planet and then self realization will sink in. Hawk sees people look up, begging for a higher power to save them.

But a high power doesn't make the world this way.
Humans do.

Modifié par Johnnie Walker, 16 mars 2013 - 02:52 .

[The Hierophant]

DinoSteve wrote...

I'd much prefer more humorous reactions then sensitive, there was humorous remarks in DA2 but they made Hawke sound like a dick, you can be funny without being a ass.

The Hierophant wrote...

People seriously cried at Leandra's death? I thought the scene was unintentionally comical as it looked like something from a Tim Burton flick.

I felt it was over done, it was like when a bad actor or actress tries too put too much emotion into a part they are playing.

Lol you just reminded me of Ben Stiller's character in Tropic Thunder.

But yup, it had the cliched final words element to it which hammed up the moment. The scene could of probably been more impactful if Leandra had died before Hawke, and her could say goodbye.

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
And that is why Dragon Age 2 was a huge failure, you are right and the player doesnt have to care about a characters death but considering that the game puts you in the role of a character who supposedly cares about his family then the devs should try their hardest to make the player care about those characters as well and at least feel something when something happens to them.

I don't see why. Making me cry over Leandra's death isn't going to make me roleplay it better.

I don't know what sort of bar you're setting for narrative quality, but no story (at least none that I can recall) has made me genuinely upset when a character died. I don't feel that the emotional disconnect prevents me from understanding Hawke, or from enjoying stories generally. I enjoy stories of all kinds immensely.

Personally I feel that in a video game that strives to have a strong narrative focus the writers should strive to give the player a stronger emotional bond with the character they are playing, this is not just about making the player feel like a powerful mage or badass space marine but also making them feel fear, anger, sorrow and confusion in relation to what the PC would be feeling as well, it is why I know movie critics are full of **** when they say "video games will never be an art form" as the truth is the video games have the potential to be a far more powerful artform than movies can ever hope to be, it all depends on how the developer utilises that potential.

Your premise here is that the goal of all art must be to evoke an emotional response, and I don't agree with that either.

Take the Walking Dead for example, the game simply wouldnt have worked if the player felt nothing for Clementine and if you watch some of the ending reaction videos you will see that the ending was a lot stronger because of it.

The Walking Dead isn't out in Australia, so I'll just have to take your word for it. But I don't anticipate that I will feel much for Clementine, whoever she is.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 mars 2013 - 03:11 .

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

SgtElias wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...

What is the point of pretending to feel something if you dont though?

I don't think that was the intended message, exactly.

If my next-door-neighbor's mother dies in a car accident, I can logically understand that they'll probably be very upset about it. I'm not upset, necessarily, but I can understand that someone who'd just lost their mother would be distraught.

In the same way, even if I the player haven't developed an emotional tie to my siblings, I know that my character would probably still mourn them. And if my character wouldn't mourn their sibling for whatever reason, and really does feel nothing, that's roleplaying, too.

If it's important to you to feel everything as your character feels it, then fair enough. But it's not important to everyone. I know that I've played characters who were, well, jerks, and I'd cringe as I chose their dialogue options; I certainly wasn't feeling what they were feeling. But that was in character for them, so those were the options I picked.

It would seem I am unclear on your definition of roleplaying then, I always viewed roleplaying as putting the player in the protagonist's shoes and having them experience the world through their eyes which in writing a video game this would be the goal I strive to achieve, however you seem to view roleplaying as a colaboration of storytelling between the player and writer where the writer gives the options and the player pieces them together while determining what the character should be feeling even if it may or may not be shown in game or being felt by the player deciding these emotions. Is that correct?

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
And that is why Dragon Age 2 was a huge failure, you are right and the player doesnt have to care about a characters death but considering that the game puts you in the role of a character who supposedly cares about his family then the devs should try their hardest to make the player care about those characters as well and at least feel something when something happens to them.

I don't see why. Making me cry over Leandra's death isn't going to make me roleplay it better.

I don't know what sort of bar you're setting for narrative quality, but no story (at least none that I can recall) has made me genuinely upset when a character died. I don't feel that the emotional disconnect prevents me from understanding Hawke, or from enjoying stories generally. I enjoy stories of all kinds immensely.

But if you feel nothing then what do you get out of the game?

Plaintiff wrote...

Personally I feel that in a video game that strives to have a strong narrative focus the writers should strive to give the player a stronger emotional bond with the character they are playing, this is not just about making the player feel like a powerful mage or badass space marine but also making them feel fear, anger, sorrow and confusion in relation to what the PC would be feeling as well, it is why I know movie critics are full of **** when they say "video games will never be an art form" as the truth is the video games have the potential to be a far more powerful artform than movies can ever hope to be, it all depends on how the developer utilises that potential.

Your premise here is that the goal of all art must be to evoke an emotional response, and I don't agree with that either.

Then what is the point of art if not to evoke emotion?

Plaintiff wrote...

Take the Walking Dead for example, the game simply wouldnt have worked if the player felt nothing for Clementine and if you watch some of the ending reaction videos you will see that the ending was a lot stronger because of it.

The Walking Dead isn't out in Australia, so I'll just have to take your word for it. But I don't anticipate that I will feel much for Clementine, whoever she is.

Isnt it? Cant you get it on steam?

[Plaintiff]

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
But if you feel nothing then what do you get out of the game?

I didn't say I felt nothing. I said I don't cry when characters die. Any emotions I do feel are pale shadows, however, because I am constantly aware that the events I am watching are fictional.

As for what I get out of stories: Enjoyment. I can't get any more specific than that. I love stories purely for their own sake, especially fantasy stories. I love reading about new worlds and learning about new characters.

I love the mechanics of stories. I like pulling them apart and examining them in detail.

I love stories so much that being an author is all I've wanted since I was five years old. I'm twenty-three now, with a bachelor's degree in Creative Writing, and I'm currently doing a year-long research project under the supervision of a critically acclaimed author of Young Adult fiction.

Plaintiff wrote...
Then what is the point of art if not to evoke emotion?

I can't tell you. Centuries of academics and scholars have argued about the "point" of art for ages. It's like asking "what is the point of life?". Personally, I don't think art has a point, and I don't think it needs one.

Plaintiff wrote...
Isnt it? Cant you get it on steam?

It isn't out yet. It's only a matter of days, but I probably won't get it right away.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 mars 2013 - 03:37 .

[Jarl Johnnie Walker]

The point is life is living how you see fit. Emotionless or full of emotion.
It's the same thing with art.
Art is a metaphor for control. You chose the canvas and the color(s). It's all under your control. You pick and chose.

If you think something needs a point, then find it. Defined your point, not another being's point.
Everyone has a different point to something. It's your mind, not theirs.

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I'm actually the opposite- I find I don't get nearly enough options to be an **** to people. I'm not joking here, it seems like Bioware just automatically assumes that, even if we don't like our companions, we at least respect them. I want to browbeat everyone into following me, and literally beat them if they step out of line. I mean, our characters go around murdering people all day, and don't tell me you never wanted to give Anders or Alistair five across the eyes when they got too whiny.

I never, ever wanted to strike Alistair or Anders.

Going to say this as well. I've head canoned some scenes where I might have pushed Anders or something similar, but never outright slapped in the face. The only reasonable scenario where I could see that working in context would be after finding out that romance Anders lied about the reasons for the potion and ingredients, and even then it's more of an emotional reaction for my PC.

deuce985 wrote...

Even in the aggressive tone sometimes I wanted to at least show some compassion. I mean c'mon. I wasn't some sociopath. Bioware should've just let me flip my siblings off using that tone in DA2 as they died.

Had a good laugh visualizing that, thanks.

[Gandalf-the-Fabulous]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gandalf-the-Fabulous wrote...
But if you feel nothing then what do you get out of the game?

I didn't say I felt nothing. I said I don't cry when characters die. Any emotions I do feel are pale shadows.

You dont have to cry to feel sorrow nor does that feeling of sorrow have to be as strong as the sorrow you would actually feel if your own mother had died, the important thing is that the scene evokes that emotion even if it is but a pale shadow.

[Plaintiff]

nightscrawl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I'm actually the opposite- I find I don't get nearly enough options to be an **** to people. I'm not joking here, it seems like Bioware just automatically assumes that, even if we don't like our companions, we at least respect them. I want to browbeat everyone into following me, and literally beat them if they step out of line. I mean, our characters go around murdering people all day, and don't tell me you never wanted to give Anders or Alistair five across the eyes when they got too whiny.

I never, ever wanted to strike Alistair or Anders.

Going to say this as well. I've head canoned some scenes where I might have pushed Anders or something similar, but never outright slapped in the face. The only reasonable scenario where I could see that working in context would be after finding out that romance Anders lied about the reasons for the potion and ingredients, and even then it's more of an emotional reaction for my PC.

I don't really think it's okay to physically attack a friend or partner ever, for any reason. In real life, if I did that to someone, or they did that to me, I would not expect our relationship to continue.

[duckley]

-TC1989- wrote...

I hate to sound completely heartless... but when Carver died in my playthrough at the opening, I was actually more relieved than sad? Am I evil?

Yes -  LOL

 I love Carver and would actually like to see him in DA:I -  a matured, more fleshed out character  who has a unique mix of empathy to Mages (his family) and committment to  what the Order ought to be. 

[nightscrawl]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't really think it's okay to physically attack a friend or partner ever, for any reason. In real life, if I did that to someone, or they did that to me, I would not expect our relationship to continue.

I do agree with you. However, I was thinking along the lines of this scene (sound sucks sorry, best I could find). When I saw that for the first time as a kid it had a huge impact on me because it was so emotionally heavy, especially with his reaction after she leaves. That's what I had in mind when I wrote the statement.

To be honest, regarding Anders specifically, I think he would probably feel better about it (the deception) if Hawke reacted that way. Anders, particularly rival Anders, doesn't like himself very much. *Sigh* He's so f'd up.


Going back to our character showing more emotion; one of the best examples in DA2 of the tone icons providing the desired emotional reaction was your first choice when you talk to Anders after the Ella incident. The red options is (if you save her) "You almost killed that girl!" with the appropriate pissed/horrified tone of voice. It's perfect and I pick it every time, regardless of the personality of Hawke I am doing in that play.

I'm really excited to see an example of the reaction wheel. I hope the devs show it off whenever it is they do their reveal.

[Xilizhra]

Plaintiff wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I'm actually the opposite- I find I don't get nearly enough options to be an **** to people. I'm not joking here, it seems like Bioware just automatically assumes that, even if we don't like our companions, we at least respect them. I want to browbeat everyone into following me, and literally beat them if they step out of line. I mean, our characters go around murdering people all day, and don't tell me you never wanted to give Anders or Alistair five across the eyes when they got too whiny.

I never, ever wanted to strike Alistair or Anders.

Going to say this as well. I've head canoned some scenes where I might have pushed Anders or something similar, but never outright slapped in the face. The only reasonable scenario where I could see that working in context would be after finding out that romance Anders lied about the reasons for the potion and ingredients, and even then it's more of an emotional reaction for my PC.

I don't really think it's okay to physically attack a friend or partner ever, for any reason. In real life, if I did that to someone, or they did that to me, I would not expect our relationship to continue.

I'm curious: in the scene in ME3 where Jack punches you over the whole Cerberus thing, did you wholly cut her off thereafter?

I do agree with your statement overall, though I assume that Misanthrope Prime doesn't see Anders as a friend in any case. Of course, you can outright stab him, so one would assume that would be sufficient.

[karushna5]

I know that I like to be surprised, but art has never mad me feel. I play games and read for entertainment, in fact if art does make me feel those emotions are so hurtful I usually hate the movie/ book forever. The reason I avoid art movies is they hurt. I am not fond of feeling hurt or depressed. If I cry or get upset than I am sure it gets worst movie or book of the year in my mind.

It takes a lot to get me upset or react, but if I do and it is a negative emotion I cry for hours and never look at it again. I think I am in the vast minority on this one. And understand very few movies or books ever do it to me, and never a video game. I play to have fun or be entertained, by a sad story if it is good...it is fun, but if it stops being fun than I am done.

[Commander Kurt]

Hmm... This is going to be interesting to see if we do get an emotions wheel. I'm really sceptical, I must admit. To pause in the middle of an emotional scene in order to choose an emotion sounds like a bad idea, I would much rather have emotional interrupts (left trigger meaning sad and right meaning angry or some such), but I will of course reserve judgment until I see it all implemented.

[sandalisthemaker]

karushna5 wrote...

I know that I like to be surprised, but art has never mad me feel. I play games and read for entertainment, in fact if art does make me feel those emotions are so hurtful I usually hate the movie/ book forever. The reason I avoid art movies is they hurt. I am not fond of feeling hurt or depressed. If I cry or get upset than I am sure it gets worst movie or book of the year in my mind.

It takes a lot to get me upset or react, but if I do and it is a negative emotion I cry for hours and never look at it again. I think I am in the vast minority on this one. And understand very few movies or books ever do it to me, and never a video game. I play to have fun or be entertained, by a sad story if it is good...it is fun, but if it stops being fun than I am done.

I'm a sucker for things that make me cry.
The best Bioware tear jerker scene for me was Mordin's death scene (where he actually cures the genophage and sings his song) That made me weep, and I really do mean *weep*
It was devastating, and yet at the same time beautiful.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 16 mars 2013 - 10:33 .