157 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I'm actually the opposite- I find I don't get nearly enough options to be an **** to people. I'm not joking here, it seems like Bioware just automatically assumes that, even if we don't like our companions, we at least respect them. I want to browbeat everyone into following me, and literally beat them if they step out of line. I mean, our characters go around murdering people all day, and don't tell me you never wanted to give Anders or Alistair five across the eyes when they got too whiny.

Now this I like.

[Absafraginlootly]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
There's no condemnation of the people in our posts, rather it's a disbelief at the sorrow the poorly voice acted scene with wooden facial animations evokes. Then there's Varric's potential killing of Gascard that is depicted in a comical manner, along with a drawn out fight sequence afterwards.

When you say "I can't believe people found that scene sad, because it was a stupid and dumb and stupid some more", you are, in fact, mocking the people who felt sad at that scene.

This ^

I was just deciding how to respond to that, or even if it was worth bothering, but this is pretty much what I was thinking of only more eloquent.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Absafraginlootly wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
There's no condemnation of the people in our posts, rather it's a disbelief at the sorrow the poorly voice acted scene with wooden facial animations evokes. Then there's Varric's potential killing of Gascard that is depicted in a comical manner, along with a drawn out fight sequence afterwards.

When you say "I can't believe people found that scene sad, because it was a stupid and dumb and stupid some more", you are, in fact, mocking the people who felt sad at that scene.

This ^

I was just deciding how to respond to that, or even if it was worth bothering, but this is pretty much what I was thinking of only more eloquent.

Was thinking exactly this.

[karushna5]

@darrylzero
I see what you are saying and agree very much that some realism makes the plot and story much better, the problem comes when making things like horror of combat included. It just isn't in the theme of video games. Adding it in might make someone happy, but most people accept you go into a video game and you kill lots and lots of people. It is the theme and going against that can disrupt people more.

It would be similiar to a detective game making you spend half the game filing paper work, or a Kung fu game have have no weird moves that defy physics. Not saying the second one can't be fun, but it changes the genre so completely as to make it un recognizable. To do anything to give the theme seriousness, you would have to make the whole game about it

[SongstressKitsune]

Cutlasskiwi wrote...

Absafraginlootly wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
There's no condemnation of the people in our posts, rather it's a disbelief at the sorrow the poorly voice acted scene with wooden facial animations evokes. Then there's Varric's potential killing of Gascard that is depicted in a comical manner, along with a drawn out fight sequence afterwards.

When you say "I can't believe people found that scene sad, because it was a stupid and dumb and stupid some more", you are, in fact, mocking the people who felt sad at that scene.

This ^

I was just deciding how to respond to that, or even if it was worth bothering, but this is pretty much what I was thinking of only more eloquent.

Was thinking exactly this.

I'm gonna say "this" too.

All That Remains is one of the biggest player punches in the game for me. I like Leandra, and I go out of my way to interact with her a lot, even knowing what will happen, and it always hurts. A lot. (Which I love; I love when a game or book or show gives me the feels.)

More to the topic, I love that the devs have mentioned a reaction wheel and I'm excited to see exactly what that means because it sounds like an awesome roleplaying aid.

Modifié par SongstressKitsune, 18 mars 2013 - 04:58 .

[Korusus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

If it's side commentary of "Wow I've killed a lot of people" is that really sufficient? If we make it start to actually have a tangible effect on the character, it becomes something very different and more interesting (and more challenging)

I don't know if it will matter as much in the future since I expect future games to be handled better than DA2...but you do kill a lot of people in DA2.  A lot of people.  A lot.  Hundreds upon hundreds.  That's quite a change from killing mostly darkspawn or having some mitigating circumstance to justify killing (a war for example) or being attacked by different groups of bandits across a large geographic scale (anywhere you go there's bound to be bandits).

In DA2 you're in a single geographically isolated city running around killing hundreds upon hundreds of people.  Hundreds.  Hundreds and hundreds.  I've never felt as uncomfortable with this trope as I did in DA2.  That's just my 2 cents.

[Twisted Path]

In a lot of recent Bioware games and in Dragon Age 2 especially there are a lot of moments where a person gets straight-up murdered in front of you and the player character has no emotional reaction to it at all. It's kind of jarring if you're trying to roleplay a good character. I imagine this is something that the "reaction wheel" David Gaider talked about is meant to address.

Mass Effect 3 actually had a moment like this that really bothered me. Early in the game when a character is reintroduced she's fighting some guys and ends up incapacitating them. Then she casually walks up to each of them and battle-field executes them. You may have been playing the whole series as a character who's firmly against that sort of thing but you never even get the option to berate her for murdering incapacitated enemy soldiers and the way it's presented I don't think it crossed the developers minds that some people might think that was a bad thing.

I think a lot of developers get caught up in choreographing dramatic scenes of violence to make a character look tough and cool and don't stop to think about the moral implications of the violent things the characters are doing. I really like having the *option* to play an evil, heartless character. I usually end up doing evil playthroughs of these sorts of games at some point. But it is really jarring when you're playing a game with supposed moral choices and you never get the option to act heroic or evil. You're just this emotionless void who stands idle and says nothing while an ally murders already defeated enemies or some crazy bloodmage elf gives a big speech before murdering his wife right in front of you.

Edit: To clarify ever so slightly: I'm not saying that characters (the PC included,) shouldn't do morally dodgy, violent things. I'm just saying that when they do characters (the PC included,) who are fans of stuff like mercy and the Geneva Conventions shouldn't approve.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 18 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[schalafi]

I played Hawke as a female mage, and I didn't have any remorse about killing someone who attacked me first. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked a chance to reason with some of the gangs and thugs we kept meeting, and maybe resolving a situation without bloodshed.

If the game doesn't give you a choice, then there's nothing you can do but just be dragged along a single path, whether you want to go that way, or not. In DA2 you absolutely could not run away from a fight, and I found that annoying.

My mage was compassionate to people in need, and didn't turn down a chance to help them...If it was allowed, but there were times where I felt I was railroaded into actions I didn't want to do, like Merill's story. I felt totally helpless in her situation, and I don't care to be forced into such situations where none of my choices matter.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

It's called roleplaying.

I know what grief feels like. I don't need to feel any particular sorrow for Leandra in order to understand how Hawke is feeling.

I completely agree that the player need not feel those same emotions in order for his character to feel those emotions.

But whether the character feels those emotions should be determined by the player, not the game.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
There's no condemnation of the people in our posts, rather it's a disbelief at the sorrow the poorly voice acted scene with wooden facial animations evokes. Then there's Varric's potential killing of Gascard that is depicted in a comical manner, along with a drawn out fight sequence afterwards.

When you say "I can't believe people found that scene sad, because it was a stupid and dumb and stupid some more", you are, in fact, mocking the people who felt sad at that scene.

My original post expressed surprise that people were saddened by what i viewed as an unintentionally comical scene. Can you please highlight in my op where i called people out of their names or lol'd @ them? 

But using your logic, any criticism towards anything that someone potentially likes is mocking them? There's people who like Jennifer Lopez's Gigli, i guess by me bashing the acting in that film i'm insulting it's fans? Since i love Vagrant Story's plot, gameplay etc that means i should view any criticism towards it as mocking me? Heaven forbid if anyone on this forum criticizes sports teams, music, artwork, film, literature, or videogames as people have feelings towards them. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 18 mars 2013 - 06:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Then pick stoic for your tone.

Having stoic as an available option would be new.

[Brockololly]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
There's an aspect of scale that is perhaps implausible and definitely fantasy, but it's pretty much a trope.  Aragorn brutally kills copious amounts of hostiles but appears to still be reasonably well adjusted and compassionate, for example.

That's true but it seemed like in DA2 compared to Origins or Aragorn in Lord of the Rings, you were mostly killing other human beings (or elves or dwarves). Not semi- monstrous darkspawn or beasts or orcs and such.

That said, having the potential for a fantasy RPG version of Spec Ops: The Line? Sounds good to me! (Assuming you were playing as a much more fixed protagonist, like Spec Ops).

Modifié par Brockololly, 18 mars 2013 - 06:44 .

[efrgfhnm_]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I'm actually the opposite- I find I don't get nearly enough options to be an **** to people. I'm not joking here, it seems like Bioware just automatically assumes that, even if we don't like our companions, we at least respect them. I want to browbeat everyone into following me, and literally beat them if they step out of line. I mean, our characters go around murdering people all day, and don't tell me you never wanted to give Anders or Alistair five across the eyes when they got too whiny.

QFT

[Nerevar-as]

Brockololly wrote...

That's true but it seemed like in DA2 compared to Origins or Aragorn in Lord of the Rings, you were mostly killing other human beings (or elves or dwarves). Not semi- monstrous darkspawn or beasts or orcs and such.

That said, having the potential for a fantasy RPG version of Spec Ops: The Line? Sounds good to me! (Assuming you were playing as a much more fixed protagonist, like Spec Ops).

It would be nice it we were allowed to build our character´s reactions as we go along. I loved when I chose how Shepard felt in LotSB, hated the forced emotion in ME3 to things I think s/he wouldn´t have such a reaction.

I think shock should be automatic, as without it the character comes across as really flat, as in the sibling´s death. To me, it brings a disconnection, and no roleplaying covers for a poker face at a sudden traumatic event. But emotions that develop over time, or allow time for reaction should be left to the player. Shock at ventboy´s death was ok if clumsily manipulative, the nightmares have no place if we are suppossed to control the PC´s personality.

Sadly it doesn´t look like BW is aiming for that. Please, a bit of ambition here. A voiced PC who isn´t given the possibility of having a personality has no advantage over a mute one. Maybe worse, as it is like watching a movie with a boring main character.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nerevar-as wrote...

I think shock should be automatic, as without it the character comes across as really flat, as in the sibling´s death. To me, it brings a disconnection, and no roleplaying covers for a poker face at a sudden traumatic event.

I disagree.  I see no value in forcing visible reactions on the PC.

Not all people emote visibly.

A voiced PC who isn´t given the possibility of having a personality has no advantage over a mute one.

Given the cinematic nature of the games, and personality the voiced PC is allowed to have is a personality chosen by the writers, not the player.

So, that leaves us with the choice between a personality selected for us or no personality at all.  Why do we want a voiced protagonist, again?

[Daerog]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

 Why do we want a voiced protagonist, again?

Because video games are starting to be more like interactive movies and people want the Oscar winning scenes found in movies in their cut scenes, too.

I like it in many games, and I like not having it in others, but this seems to be the direction BW is going. I like it so far in BW games, but it is always good to have games with silent PCs, which is what kickstarter is helping keep alive it seems.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 18 mars 2013 - 08:53 .

[Nerevar-as]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


Not all people emote visibly.

Poker face when your sibling is crushed in front of you goes well beyond not emoting visibly. Cousland´s brief horror expression in HN Origin was way better.

Given the cinematic nature of the games, and personality the voiced PC is allowed to have is a personality chosen by the writers, not the player.

So, that leaves us with the choice between a personality selected for us or no personality at all.  Why do we want a voiced protagonist, again?

I don´t care much either way. But if I´m playing a 3rd person game with a voiced PC I´d rather s/he doesn´t feel like the Razzie´s Worst Actor/Actress Award of a Lifetime. With DA2 BW was on nobody´s land, Hawke was the worst of both worlds, ME1&2 Shepard was fine IMHO.

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...
My original post expressed surprise that people were saddened by what i viewed as an unintentionally comical scene. Can you please highlight in my op where i called people out of their names or lol'd @ them?

Name-calling and laughing are not required for mockery.

But using your logic, any criticism towards anything that someone potentially likes is mocking them? There's people who like Jennifer Lopez's Gigli, i guess by me bashing the acting in that film i'm insulting it's fans? Since i love Vagrant Story's plot, gameplay etc that means i should view any criticism towards it as mocking me? Heaven forbid if anyone on this forum criticizes sports teams, music, artwork, film, literature, or videogames as people have feelings towards them.

If you dislike something, then you can say so. But what you just described here is not the situation at all.

Saying that Leandra's death is "stupid", and that you can't believe people had an emotional reaction to it, is absolutely mocking them. It goes beyond criticism of the game, and becomes criticism of other players. You're essentially calling them stupid for having feelings that you don't share.

Besides which, whether or not one has an emotional reaction to something is irrelevent to whether or not they like it. I had an emotional rection to a scene in Game of Thrones, but I stilll think it's some of the most boring, immature, gratuitously titillating crap on TV. All people are saying is that the scene with Leandra upset them, not that they thought it was particularly well-written, although some of them may feel that way. Some people are just more sensitive to the idea of losing a family member.

If you think the scene is stupid, say that, and only that. Don't mention other people at all.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 18 mars 2013 - 10:46 .

[The Hierophant]

This is my original post.

The Hierophant wrote...

People seriously cried at Leandra's death? I thought the scene was unintentionally comical as it looked like something from a Tim Burton flick.

More importantly, along with an option to be more sensitive, there should be an option to be apathetic.

So show me where in this post i mocked people who felt sad at the scene?

[Plaintiff]

The Hierophant wrote...

This is my original post.

The Hierophant wrote...

People seriously cried at Leandra's death? I thought the scene was unintentionally comical as it looked like something from a Tim Burton flick.

More importantly, along with an option to be more sensitive, there should be an option to be apathetic.

So show me where in this post i mocked people who felt sad at the scene?

The very first sentence. Herp derp.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Poker face when your sibling is crushed in front of you goes well beyond not emoting visibly. Cousland´s brief horror expression in HN Origin was way better.

I thought the brief horror expression during the joining ritual was character breaking.

No one expression is going to please all players.  Therefore, we either need to choose the expression ourselves, or the PC shouldn't be shown on screen during cinematics.  Those are the only two viable options.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Plaintiff wrote...

The very first sentence. Herp derp.

That's not mockery.  That's incredulity.

[The Hierophant]

Plaintiff wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

This is my original post.

The Hierophant wrote...

People seriously cried at Leandra's death? I thought the scene was unintentionally comical as it looked like something from a Tim Burton flick.

More importantly, along with an option to be more sensitive, there should be an option to be apathetic.

So show me where in this post i mocked people who felt sad at the scene?

The very first sentence. Herp derp.

Herp derp it was genuine surprise that people cried at that scene as i couldn't relate, and it spoke nothing of their characters.

So what's your purpose for misinterpreting my post?

[DragonMage95]

I thought DA already had that sort of option?