94 réponses à ce sujet

[Volus Warlord]

Because getting stomped is their purpose.

[Fast Jimmy]

Blazomancer wrote...

I don't know what the writers have in store for the elves in the DA universe. But in the real world, it would just be a matter of time. History has it that people have fought with bare hands and swords against canons and guns. Because people can only take too much oppression before finally giving up fear. Living free is the inherent nature of animals including humans, don't know about the city elves in DA lore.

I think the problem here is that the elves are no longer a people. 

The Dalish all live in their own clans, relatively isolated from one another. Some communication and trade exists, for sure, but they don't behave as one cohesive unit.

The City Elves are even moreso. They identify with being whatever nationality they live in more than they do an elvish culture. They speak the language, participate in the customs, know the region geographically... they are Fereldens, or Orlesians or Antivans, not elves. For them to "unite" would seem to imply they have something in common aside from pointy ears and a life of varying degrees of oppression. It is a little like saying poor Hispanics and poor Native Americans should rise up together and demand better lives. There is a very loose ancestral link there, but the two groups are not linked or feel like they "belong" to each other.

So why would the elves unite under one banner, when such a banner doesn't even really exist anymore?

[The Hierophant]

It would be interesting if the elves of Arlathan were blood sacrificing slavers, who the Tevinters learned their hospitality from as their ancestors were enslaved by the elves.

[KingsTiger]

The Hierophant wrote...

It would be interesting if the elves of Arlathan were blood sacrificing slavers, who the Tevinters learned their hospitality from as their ancestors were enslaved by the elves.

Yeah, that would be kind of interesting. I kind of want to see the comforting image that is Arlathan pulled down a few notches. It seems like a huge number of the Elves' problems in Thedas stem from this desperate need to reclaim a past that no longer exist--the Dales refusing to assist during the Blight, for instance. I don't really see any lasting improvement in the status of the Elven people until they start trying to make a better future, instead of grousing over their past, and having the legend of Arlathan tarnished a little would certainly help with that.

That being said, I doubt they were as bad as ancient Tevinter, but as a rule, when you see a story that goes "They hate us 'cause they're jealous" there's almost always something more involved.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

It would seem that they were not as bad as Tevinter, honestly.

For example, the Tevinters learned the power and art of the Sominari from Elvish prisoners who were taken during the war. Before long, the Tevinters were invading the dreams of the Elves, tormenting them and wreaking havoc in their world. It seems that, despite the Elves knowing how to shape the Fade and the dreams with their magic, they never actually used it for nefarious purposes. If they had, one would think they would have developed some type of defenses or response, instead of being subjected to the torture of a group of people who just learned how to do something.

Which I suppose opens itself up to a larger conversation: is the Fade localized to where the dreamer exists in the real world? After all, if the Elves had great mastery over the Fade and all races go to the Fade when they sleep, you would think that they would have at least encountered other races before humans just plopped down in Par Vollen and founded the Tevinter Empire?

[Blazomancer]

@Jimmy - Well, yes, that might not happen in a single day, even in a few centuries perhaps. But I think if the word of an alienage rebelling and getting slaughtered to the last elf spreads across the land, why wouldn't their blood stir? Why couldn't some great leader arise who can unite them in time and start demanding rights? Whether it takes the form of an armed rebellion or civil disobedience, is another matter. Even though such a movement may not gain much support from every alienage or dalish clan all over the continent, once it gains momentum, I can't imagine why they wouldn't choose to land a hand? Yes, I agree that they won't unite under one banner on their own, but with some coalition of leaders to give them a sense of direction and belonging, it certainly isn't something impossible.

[The Hierophant]

KingsTiger wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It would be interesting if the elves of Arlathan were blood sacrificing slavers, who the Tevinters learned their hospitality from as their ancestors were enslaved by the elves.

Yeah, that would be kind of interesting. I kind of want to see the comforting image that is Arlathan pulled down a few notches. It seems like a huge number of the Elves' problems in Thedas stem from this desperate need to reclaim a past that no longer exist--the Dales refusing to assist during the Blight, for instance. I don't really see any lasting improvement in the status of the Elven people until they start trying to make a better future, instead of grousing over their past, and having the legend of Arlathan tarnished a little would certainly help with that.

That being said, I doubt they were as bad as ancient Tevinter, but as a rule, when you see a story that goes "They hate us 'cause they're jealous" there's almost always something more involved.

Agreed, as i believe a similar themed reveal could round out the Elves' history so that they are elevated past being viewed as Thedas's obligatory victim race. 

Plus the bolded is also my take on the elves, and is what bothers me about Merrill's story arc as her ancestors at the height of their power possessed countless Eluvians, yet it didn't stop them from being conquered 2,000 years ago.

[Rawgrim]

They do look like Dobby in the Harry Potter movies. Its not really a surprise that they are downtrodden now.

[KingsTiger]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Which I suppose opens itself up to a larger conversation: is the Fade localized to where the dreamer exists in the real world? After all, if the Elves had great mastery over the Fade and all races go to the Fade when they sleep, you would think that they would have at least encountered other races before humans just plopped down in Par Vollen and founded the Tevinter Empire?

Hmm... I suppose that it would have to be localized-it's a realm that depends largely on the dreamer in question, right? That's why people see things in dreams they recognize from the real world, even if those things aren't real. So, barring encounters with beings native to that realm (demons, spirits), the only things you can encounter in the Fade are things you can conceptualize. It wouldn't be localized in the sense of physical distance so much as... mental distance? Not sure how to phrase it.

[Fast Jimmy]

Blazomancer wrote...

@Jimmy - Well, yes, that might not happen in a single day, even in a few centuries perhaps. But I think if the word of an alienage rebelling and getting slaughtered to the last elf spreads across the land, why wouldn't their blood stir? Why couldn't some great leader arise who can unite them in time and start demanding rights? Whether it takes the form of an armed rebellion or civil disobedience, is another matter. Even though such a movement may not gain much support from every alienage or dalish clan all over the continent, once it gains momentum, I can't imagine why they wouldn't choose to land a hand? Yes, I agree that they won't unite under one banner on their own, but with some coalition of leaders to give them a sense of direction and belonging, it certainly isn't something impossible.

So, Kirkwall 2.0, essentially? With elves instead of Mages?

I think most leaders know the ramifications for purging out an entire alienage of all life. Hence, no leader has ever done it in the hundreds of years since the Dales fell. Putting down riots, sure. But full-scale genocide? There's no reason for it, unless you were just looking for a reason to have every alienage unite and revolt. Ironically, the only group that would want this to actually happen IS the elves.

In regards to a group of leaders trying to gain rights in a pacifist manner, I could see this working. Except the education, means and connections required to travel and maintain communication with the various alienages, make headway with local officials and nobles and leverage the rights of a group most humans see as nothing more than being poor and ignorant is a very combination to find. Most elves work incredibly hard just to have what a life comparable to what other humans have easily. The chances of one obtaining any sort of wealth to the degree of being able to coordinate an effort is extremely remote. Not to mention that person would need to be extremely charismatic to unite various elven groups and to convince human lords to give them the time of day.

And before anyone says "my Dalish Warden would be perfect for all of that!" I will point out that the Warden's story is done, according to Gaider. They won't be coming back and orchestrating great events like freeing mages, or liberating elves or ruling Ferelden on high. There were so many variations on what the Warden could or could not be doing that they may as well not exist at all, since nothing of substance can be done with their character. One of the reasons I wish they would just do away with the Save Import feature and set a canon for past games anyway, but that's a different topic.

[KR4U55]

I haven't read any of the (so far) 3 pages, but I'd like OP to read this: Why homeless people don't do something about their condition?

I know I'm going too far, but really, you get people that are in the bottom of society and expect to chage their future how, giving them weapons? Making them work harder? Giving them the high fantasy equivalent of a lawyer? Moving to the woods and expect to live peacefully? We know how the latter worked out.

[nightscrawl]

Whenever it comes to these discussions about elves I don't understand why no one thinks there would never be any humans who will want to change things. It happened with the American history of slavery and then with the Civil Rights movement. I don't see why the same thing is not possible within Thedas.

Hell, even Hermione Granger from Harry Potter protested the treatment of "house elves" in that universe.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 mars 2013 - 03:32 .

[Fast Jimmy]

nightscrawl wrote...

Whenever it comes to these discussions about elves I don't understand why no one thinks there would never be any humans who will want to change things. It happened with the American history of slavery and then with the Civil Rights movement. I don't see why the same thing is not possible within Thedas.

<shrug> Most humans are doing their best just to survive. Abolitionist movements to end slavery in various parts of the world didn't arise until well after the invention of the printing press and the education of the masses. Until the tools to have an informed and pro-active populace are in place, everyone is roughly at the bottom gutter of society. The Renaissance and the printing press were the tools that allowed a true middle class to be formed and a shift moved away from agrarian-based societies. 

If you are worried about where your next meal is going to be coming from, you don't worry about social equality or justice all that much.

[Plaintiff]

nightscrawl wrote...
Hell, even Hermione Granger from Harry Potter protested the treatment of "house elves" in that universe.

I thought that was one of the more interesting aspects of the universe, and I wish it'd been examined more in-depth. How does an entire species devoted to servitude even come to exist? Is it genetics? Social conditioning? Were they created by magic?

[Sir JK]

I believe there's a three-pronged reasons the elves (by which I assume you mean city elves, arguably the dalish are doing something) does not do anything about their situation:

1. By now, most city elves have more in common with their homecities than they have with any sort of "Elvenness". There's not so much a international movement as city elves as Val Royeaux elves, Denerim Elves, Highever elves, Montsimmard elves, Halamshiral elves, Kirkwall elves and so forth. They have traits in common, but won't the Denerim and Highever elves have absorbed parts of the fereldan liberty ideals? Won't the Val Royeaux and Montsimmard elves have the pride of the orlesians? Won't the Halamshiral elves look down on all others (including the Dalish) for not remaining in the Dales like they do? Won't the Kirkwall elves have more in common with Kirkwallers than with elves from Kont-Arr?

2. There's no real form of communication between their enclaves. While they do stick together inside the alienages, there's only the occasional marriage between them and those are very expensive. With a lack of trade or wide spread familial ties, there's very little ability to organise anything. Unless the alienage is more populous than the rest of the city everything is already weighed against them, and even if they take a city... how are they're going to handle the king's (or lord's) army?

3. This one being by far the most important one. Most elves are day labourers, earning just enough that they only have to spend every waking hour to get any food. The most loyal and dutiful ones getting the few better jobs available for them. A rebellious elf would be barred from the latter and, if very vocal about it, likely the former as well.

Ideas are nice and all... but you cannot eat them.

[Fast Jimmy]

KR4U55 wrote...

I haven't read any of the (so far) 3 pages, but I'd like OP to read this: Why homeless people don't do something about their condition?

I know I'm going too far, but really, you get people that are in the bottom of society and expect to chage their future how, giving them weapons? Making them work harder? Giving them the high fantasy equivalent of a lawyer? Moving to the woods and expect to live peacefully? We know how the latter worked out.

I would say the homeless problem is a different issue. The vast majority of homeless have mental health issues and often are not functional in most levels of "normal" society. Substance abuse, PTSD, anti-social/agressive behaviors, etc. all make a homeless person very hard to integrate back into the average person's world. In addition, pre-industrial homeless were often those afflicted with infectious diseases that made them a pariah to have around other workers or people.

In contrast, elves are socially functional. They can work all the same types of jobs humans can as farmers, dock workers, soldiers, miners, etc. The problems arise strictyl from their race and the perceptions that are associated with it. 

The way to overcome homelessness is better tracking and identification of those who are part of the problem and targeting treatment and rehabilitation programs for them that give them the tools they need to find steady work. The way to overcome elven oppression is a coordinated effort to prevent racism against the entire population. Neither of which can be accomplished in the world of Thedas, as it requires either government intervention (which the infrastructure to monitor or police woudln't exist in a world where the majority is still illiterate) or the work of social-minded independent organizations that are well funded, which we see none of in Thedas aside from the Chantry, who doesn't exactly have the plight of the elves as their number one priority.

The only way to have elves regain their place in society is to give them their own land again, but ruled with the right people and which engages in the outside world. Isolationism is the recipe for stagnation and eventual destruction for any group, but it seems especially true of the elvish races.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 mars 2013 - 03:52 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...
Hell, even Hermione Granger from Harry Potter protested the treatment of "house elves" in that universe.

I thought that was one of the more interesting aspects of the universe, and I wish it'd been examined more in-depth. How does an entire species devoted to servitude even come to exist? Is it genetics? Social conditioning? Were they created by magic?

I would speculate that the elves were orgiinally tied to specific trees or forests, which they cared for and nurtured. When a house was built out of said tree by humans, the elves may have felt lost and instead devoted themselves to nurturing the house and, hence, the humans in it.

Just wild speculation, but it does fit into the normal mythos of elves being connected to nature.

[Plaintiff]

Creating any sort of social movement, be it a rebellion or even a simple charity, is extremely difficult, and requires a lot of dedication and effort from a lot of people.

It's extremely hard to do in our own society, where people have the free time to rebel, let alone in one where you're literally scraping by with barely enough to live on.

More than anything else, you need cohesion. Even if you could get all the elves to agree that they're being treated unfairly, and that it needs to change, the chances of getting them to agree on how to act and who to target would still be nigh on impossible, and the movement would fall apart before it even got started.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 16 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[RedArmyShogun]

Cause they know where there place is picking cotton from my fields, rather than something else white from there bodies.

[duckley]

[[/quote]
Well, then they're even more pathetic than I thought. "Let's join another oppressive regime to escape this one!" [/quote]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend....

[nicethugbert]

In the Real World, the closest parallel that I am aware of is "civilized" societies vs. " barbarian" societies. The "civilized" societies are outnumbered by the " barbarians" in total but the "barbarians are not united so they have no real numerical advantage but are instead divided and conquered. The "civilized" societies also tend to have technological or organizational superiority to some degree but not alwas as much as one might expect or assume. The main advantage is the enemies disunity.

But, I don't see any conflict among the Dalish, at least not violent conflict.

I get the impression that the Dalish were merely technologically weaker from the start, and perhaps outnumbered.

[duckley]

Plaintiff wrote...

Creating any sort of social movement, be it a rebellion or even a simple charity, is extremely difficult, and requires a lot of dedication and effort from a lot of people.

It's extremely hard to do in our own society, where people have the free time to rebel, let alone in one where you're literally scraping by with barely enough to live on.

More than anything else, you need cohesion. Even if you could get all the elves to agree that they're being treated unfairly, and that it needs to change, the chances of getting them to agree on how to act and who to target would still be nigh on impossible, and the movement would fall apart before it even got started.

Plus - in any uprising they are likely to get slaughtered...ITA it takes time, resources, luck,  timing, cohesion, and mcuh more. Decades, centuries of oppression is not easily overturned. So often in Revolutions it is the intellectuals who get things sitrred up and usually the peons who pay the price. Benefits gained are usually for the few in the short term... and maybe for all in the long term.

[DarkDragon777]

They accept their position simply because they know that they're in no position to launch any kind of successful rebellion.