DarkDragon777 wrote...
They accept their position simply because they know that they're in no position to launch any kind of successful rebellion.
Shouldn't that be changed to Assume the position?
Why do the elves accept their condition?
Débuté par
EpicBoot2daFace
, mars 16 2013 03:09
#76
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:18
RedArmyShogun
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Shouldn't that be changed to Assume the position?
Retour en haut
#77
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:20
DarkDragon777
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All of you are trying to make it more complicated than it really is. And plus, under the right leadership, if the Elves did rise, the Dwarves would help humanity put them back down.
Modifié par DarkDragon777, 16 mars 2013 - 05:21 .
#78
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:29
Evazin
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DarkDragon777 wrote...
All of you are trying to make it more complicated than it really is. And plus, under the right leadership, if the Elves did rise, the Dwarves would help humanity put them back down.
What the dwarves (except if you choose king Bhelen) would gain? Its not like they depend on humans for trade and other things. Humans depend on the dwarfs already because of the lyrium trade and other gems, and i debout the humans would have the force to make the dwarfs help (i debout any army could storm Orzammar).
Also, is it possible that the elves, suposing they rebel, could play a factor in the civil war? Like either the Emperess or that rebel duke offer them something, like support to take back dales or something like that? It could even be a mission of that campaing in the game, as i see it.
#79
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:31
LinksOcarina
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The answer is fairly simple, but complex in terms of its machinations.
Money and unity.
What do I mean? Well, the Alienages are basically slums, destitute, poor, and completely devoid of comfortable living all things considered. The Dalish are small, clannish, and more concerned about independence over all out war, as well as the preservation of their culture over anything else.
So what we have here is the simple lack of will to fight against their current state. The Dalish are comfortable, if resentful, because they have enough to hold onto and move forward with their lives. They may crave new land and higher status, a second Dales, but it would be difficult to ascertain. The city elves are basically financially strapped, and completely independent of anything other then themselves; community is important but self interest is more valuable in an alienage.
The Elves lack both, and it would take a sort of Anders-like action to push them to a change.
Money and unity.
What do I mean? Well, the Alienages are basically slums, destitute, poor, and completely devoid of comfortable living all things considered. The Dalish are small, clannish, and more concerned about independence over all out war, as well as the preservation of their culture over anything else.
So what we have here is the simple lack of will to fight against their current state. The Dalish are comfortable, if resentful, because they have enough to hold onto and move forward with their lives. They may crave new land and higher status, a second Dales, but it would be difficult to ascertain. The city elves are basically financially strapped, and completely independent of anything other then themselves; community is important but self interest is more valuable in an alienage.
The Elves lack both, and it would take a sort of Anders-like action to push them to a change.
#80
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:38
DarkDragon777
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" What the dwarves (except if you choose king Bhelen) would gain? Its not like they depend on humans for trade and other things. Humans depend on the dwarfs already because of the lyrium trade and other gems, and i debout the humans would have the force to make the dwarfs help (i debout any army could storm Orzammar).
Also, is it possible that the elves, suposing they rebel, could play a factor in the civil war? Like either the Emperess or that rebel duke offer them something, like support to take back dales or something like that? It could even be a mission of that campaing in the game, as i see it. " - Evazin
Why would the Dwarves assist the humans? The lyrium trade you say? Thanks for answering your own question. And even beside that, I think the history of Thedas has made it pretty apparent that the Dwarves would rather see humans control the surface than the Elves. And when did I say that they would have to force the Dwarves into alliance? Humanity could easily storm Orzammar, I hope you realize. It would be a hell of a fight if they had golems, but it could still be done.
And on your second point, no, even the Orlesians aren't that stupid. If they needed the Elves to assist them, they'd just bully them.
Also, is it possible that the elves, suposing they rebel, could play a factor in the civil war? Like either the Emperess or that rebel duke offer them something, like support to take back dales or something like that? It could even be a mission of that campaing in the game, as i see it. " - Evazin
Why would the Dwarves assist the humans? The lyrium trade you say? Thanks for answering your own question. And even beside that, I think the history of Thedas has made it pretty apparent that the Dwarves would rather see humans control the surface than the Elves. And when did I say that they would have to force the Dwarves into alliance? Humanity could easily storm Orzammar, I hope you realize. It would be a hell of a fight if they had golems, but it could still be done.
And on your second point, no, even the Orlesians aren't that stupid. If they needed the Elves to assist them, they'd just bully them.
Modifié par DarkDragon777, 16 mars 2013 - 05:44 .
#81
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:43
CaptainBlackGold
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Trying to bring real world answers to fantasy world problems is fraught with difficulties. I think we would all agree that there is a significant difference between our racial problems (because we are all humans simply distinguished by skin color/religion/culture) and Thedas's (where there actually are completely different races with inherent differences, not just cultural).
Historically, minority populations either become assimilated into the majority (by intermarriage) or oppressed by them. When the two populations are roughly equal in numbers/power you have centuries long ethnic warfare unless there is a despotic centralized government who oppresses everyone (think Yugoslavia under the Communists). A minority population that attempts armed insurrection against the majority is almost certainly doomed to extinction - literally.
Elves could try the route that Medieval Jews took; by concentrating their skill set (as in banking) where they become indispensable - and wealthy; but then they risk pogroms whenever the Prince needs a scapegoat. Also, it helped that in the Medieval era, Christians were forbidden from loaning money at interest, which provided a niche that Jews were able to fill. Thus far, we have not seen such a niche in Thedas.
So. that leaves immigration as a last resort - a resort that most people simply refuse to take, even when it may be in their own long term best interests. The Americas offered just such a safety valve for 18-19th century Europeans (though not so good an option for Native Americans). However, there does not seemed to be large areas of unsettled lands available in Thedas.
To improve the lot of the Elves would require something that most people on these boards would find offensive today; having large numbers of children so that they go from a minority population to having enough social/economic/military power to force a change in status. However, that has its own difficulties because once the powers that be notice that the elves are growing in numbers, some attempt at population control is almost inevitable - think Pharaoh and the Children of Israel in Exodus. They would also need an economic infrastructure to support having large families.
Sociologically speaking, growing populations displace stagnate or declining populations. If the human population remains static, and the elves grow, eventually, they might have a chance.
Historically, minority populations either become assimilated into the majority (by intermarriage) or oppressed by them. When the two populations are roughly equal in numbers/power you have centuries long ethnic warfare unless there is a despotic centralized government who oppresses everyone (think Yugoslavia under the Communists). A minority population that attempts armed insurrection against the majority is almost certainly doomed to extinction - literally.
Elves could try the route that Medieval Jews took; by concentrating their skill set (as in banking) where they become indispensable - and wealthy; but then they risk pogroms whenever the Prince needs a scapegoat. Also, it helped that in the Medieval era, Christians were forbidden from loaning money at interest, which provided a niche that Jews were able to fill. Thus far, we have not seen such a niche in Thedas.
So. that leaves immigration as a last resort - a resort that most people simply refuse to take, even when it may be in their own long term best interests. The Americas offered just such a safety valve for 18-19th century Europeans (though not so good an option for Native Americans). However, there does not seemed to be large areas of unsettled lands available in Thedas.
To improve the lot of the Elves would require something that most people on these boards would find offensive today; having large numbers of children so that they go from a minority population to having enough social/economic/military power to force a change in status. However, that has its own difficulties because once the powers that be notice that the elves are growing in numbers, some attempt at population control is almost inevitable - think Pharaoh and the Children of Israel in Exodus. They would also need an economic infrastructure to support having large families.
Sociologically speaking, growing populations displace stagnate or declining populations. If the human population remains static, and the elves grow, eventually, they might have a chance.
#82
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 05:48
RedArmyShogun
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The simple problem is, the Elfs lack something...something called, facial hair. Untill an elf is born with a mustache to unite them all and the throw the humans into re-education camps nothing will change.
ICH BIEN ELFIEN! Die Menschen zu töten!
ICH BIEN ELFIEN! Die Menschen zu töten!
Modifié par RedArmyShogun, 16 mars 2013 - 05:55 .
#83
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 06:01
Evazin
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DarkDragon777 wrote...
" What the dwarves (except if you choose king Bhelen) would gain? Its not like they depend on humans for trade and other things. Humans depend on the dwarfs already because of the lyrium trade and other gems, and i debout the humans would have the force to make the dwarfs help (i debout any army could storm Orzammar).
Also, is it possible that the elves, suposing they rebel, could play a factor in the civil war? Like either the Emperess or that rebel duke offer them something, like support to take back dales or something like that? It could even be a mission of that campaing in the game, as i see it. " - Evazin
Why would the Dwarves assist the humans? The lyrium trade you say? Thanks for answering your own question. And even beside that, I think the history of Thedas has made it pretty apparent that the Dwarves would rather see humans control the surface than the Elves. And when did I say that they would have to force the Dwarves into alliance? Humanity could easily storm Orzammar, I hope you realize. It would be a hell of a fight if they had golems, but it could still be done.
And on your second point, no, even the Orlesians aren't that stupid. If they needed the Elves to assist them, they'd just bully them.
First, noone ir argueing about elves takeing control of the surface, because thats completly impossible, we are talking about them getting free.
Second, Orzammar in inside a mountain, that means no artilary and the only entrance possible of passing an army is a gate thats 3 metter tall. Unless the death comes from inside(ie: Moira), i've never seen an city so fortified and well placed as Orzammar actually falling for an outside army in a fantasy setting.
As for the orlaseians asking help, why not? If things get pretty desperate, and they hate each other enough, i could see them trying an alliance. The elves are not useless (even if they try to shown like that a lot), they could **** up the supply lines and storm places with guerrila like warfare, and acutally be a nightmare to the enemy of their ally.
#84
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 06:08
Kaiser Arian XVII
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RedArmyShogun wrote...
The simple problem is, the Elfs lack something...something called, facial hair. Untill an elf is born with a mustache to unite them all and the throw the humans into re-education camps nothing will change.
ICH BIEN ELFIEN! Die Menschen zu töten!
Das ist rassistisch!
Yes, true leaders have beard and/or mustache. Otherwise they're the loser kind who can't even gather their folk!
#85
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 06:20
TheJediSaint
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LinksOcarina wrote...
The Elves lack both, and it would take a sort of Anders-like action to push them to a change.
Church bombing for freedom!
#86
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 06:32
DarkDragon777
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" 1.First, noone ir argueing about elves takeing control of the surface, because thats completly impossible, we are talking about them getting free.
" 2.Second, Orzammar in inside a mountain, that means no artilary and the only entrance possible of passing an army is a gate thats 3 metter tall. Unless the death comes from inside(ie: Moira), i've never seen an city so fortified and well placed as Orzammar actually falling for an outside army in a fantasy setting.
" 3.As for the orlaseians asking help, why not? If things get pretty desperate, and they hate each other enough, i could see them trying an alliance. The elves are not useless (even if they try to shown like that a lot), they could **** up the supply lines and storm places with guerrila like warfare, and acutally be a nightmare to the enemy of their ally."
1. How else would they get free?
2. An army could get through Orzammar's gate easily if it was necessary. Don't kid yourself.
3. Why would anyone in Orlais be interested in helping the Elves, exactly? A high religious, monotheistic culture such as themselves would see the pagan Elvish culture as something that must be avoided or annihilated completely. They'd sooner call upon their peasants than Elves.
" 2.Second, Orzammar in inside a mountain, that means no artilary and the only entrance possible of passing an army is a gate thats 3 metter tall. Unless the death comes from inside(ie: Moira), i've never seen an city so fortified and well placed as Orzammar actually falling for an outside army in a fantasy setting.
" 3.As for the orlaseians asking help, why not? If things get pretty desperate, and they hate each other enough, i could see them trying an alliance. The elves are not useless (even if they try to shown like that a lot), they could **** up the supply lines and storm places with guerrila like warfare, and acutally be a nightmare to the enemy of their ally."
1. How else would they get free?
2. An army could get through Orzammar's gate easily if it was necessary. Don't kid yourself.
3. Why would anyone in Orlais be interested in helping the Elves, exactly? A high religious, monotheistic culture such as themselves would see the pagan Elvish culture as something that must be avoided or annihilated completely. They'd sooner call upon their peasants than Elves.
#87
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 10:18
BlazingSpeed
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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
You'd think they would get sick and tired of wandering around doing nothing or cleaning some noble's house everyday, or worse --- living in a disgusting alienage. Don't take this the wrong way, but I think they're a pretty pathetic lot myself. You'd think they would be trying to form some kind of alliance of unity amongst the dalish tribes and attack the human oppressors. But no, they just don't do anything to help themselves.
You don't see the dwarves backing down. They're still fighting the darkspawn and anyone else who gets in their way, and their race is even less varied than the elves. Could you imagine a human king telling a dwarven king that he's going to enslave his people if he doesn't comply? The dwarven response would be an axe to the head. The elves would bend knee right then and there and offer to shine the king's boots.
In Dragon Age 3, I really want to see them actually do something to help themselves.
Yeah, I like the DAO Dwarven spirit and the fact that an axe to the head right then and there would be the dwarven response the Berserker Spec did originate from thier society after all.
The Elves once had that spirit to in DAO a lot of the codex state that many of the elves died in battle rather than bent knee right then and there The traitorous Chantry is partly to blame over the generations they have helped cause the elves to forget about thier proud and noble heritage.
I really don't like the DAO elves either they don't seem to honor as willing thier agreements (with the Grey Wardens...) as the Dwarfs were.
#88
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 10:41
Dorrieb
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The city elves do fight to improve their lot, as shown by the activism of Adaia and Shianni, and at great cost to both of them too. Granted that's only two of them, but it can be understood that they're not alone, as demonstrated by the riots that followed Shianni's incident. Social change isn't going to happen overnight though, especially in a society where humans themselves don't have basic rights or a voice in how they are governed.
When I finished DA:O Shianni had been named Bann of the Alienage by King Alistair. It isn't a solution, but it's a start. Of course it doesn't give the elves a voice in government, it gives Shianni a voice in government, but that's as much as the human citizens get. Eventually there will be no difference between a human citizen and an elven citizen, and then we can all work together toward abolishing the monarchy and the nobility.
When I finished DA:O Shianni had been named Bann of the Alienage by King Alistair. It isn't a solution, but it's a start. Of course it doesn't give the elves a voice in government, it gives Shianni a voice in government, but that's as much as the human citizens get. Eventually there will be no difference between a human citizen and an elven citizen, and then we can all work together toward abolishing the monarchy and the nobility.
Modifié par Dorrieb, 16 mars 2013 - 10:41 .
#89
Posté 16 mars 2013 - 11:51
Flamingdropbear
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While I agree that the elves stand little chance of achieving equality, let alone freedom or domination humans, by themselves remember that there is a full blown war brewing/ happening between mages (another group who lack the rights afforded everyone else and treated as well as a red headed step child) and templars (a group in charge who could theoretically offer better conditions in exchange for loyalty). Since it is likely that in the game the PC will be trying to gain support for thier side (mages or templars) it seems likely that the elves (both dalish and alienage) could be courted for support.
Given that this has happened before in the Thedas' history with Shartan joining Andraste and receiving the Dales in payment (before the 2nd exalted march)
Given that this has happened before in the Thedas' history with Shartan joining Andraste and receiving the Dales in payment (before the 2nd exalted march)
Modifié par Flamingdropbear, 17 mars 2013 - 08:45 .
#90
Posté 17 mars 2013 - 12:49
TEWR
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[quote]KingsTiger wrote...
the Dales refusing to assist during the Blight, for instance.[/quote]
I don't really buy that they refused to fight. I think that's something people in Thedas choose to see because the Elves chose to not join in a battle that seemed hopeless.
[quote]
Montsimmard.
However, look at it from a military perspective instead.
[quote]TEWR wrote...
[quote]shepard1038 wrote...
Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.[/quote]
To the first, as far as I know aside from the wiki's statement there's never been anything to support that. Even so, I wouldn't take that as being indicative that they didn't care, because anyone -- even an Elven supremacist -- would be able to see that the Darkspawn require everyone working together.
Second, I've posited in the past that they foolishly -- but understandably -- decided when the Blight began to debate on the matter for years like their ancestors did regarding whatever was a topic of interest before Tevinter crushed them, since the Elves of the Dales desired to rebuild all aspects of their lost culture. And that when they did decide to help, they were a bit late to the party and Montsimmard looked to be hopeless.
You can't really blame a group of people (or a general) for not wasting soldiers if a battle appears unwinnable. Even if it wasn't unwinnable, if it appeared such then it's justifiable for them to not join in.
Third, we at least have the Tale of Iloren showing us that some parts of the Elven community of the Dales did indeed fight the Darkspawn of the Second Blight. Though those elements that fought it were in places far-flung from the Dales nation itself.
I'm finding it hard to really believe the Elves of the Dales wouldn't have fought the Darkspawn, honestly. Hell, most of Thedas likes to believe that Andraste didn't fight with an army of barbarians and Elves at her beck and call -- the latter due to the Canticle of Shartan being removed from the canon Chant of Light -- so I wouldn't be surprised if people decided to just say "They didn't help".
I mean, who knows how much Orlais rewrote history to make the Elves look bad?[/quote]
the Dales refusing to assist during the Blight, for instance.[/quote]
I don't really buy that they refused to fight. I think that's something people in Thedas choose to see because the Elves chose to not join in a battle that seemed hopeless.
[quote]
Montsimmard.
However, look at it from a military perspective instead.
[quote]TEWR wrote...
[quote]shepard1038 wrote...
Yeah the Dales were so friendly. Tell that to the countless of people in Montsimmard the darkspawn killed while the elven army watched nearby or the thousands of innocent civilians they killed and stole their belongings in Orlais.[/quote]
To the first, as far as I know aside from the wiki's statement there's never been anything to support that. Even so, I wouldn't take that as being indicative that they didn't care, because anyone -- even an Elven supremacist -- would be able to see that the Darkspawn require everyone working together.
Second, I've posited in the past that they foolishly -- but understandably -- decided when the Blight began to debate on the matter for years like their ancestors did regarding whatever was a topic of interest before Tevinter crushed them, since the Elves of the Dales desired to rebuild all aspects of their lost culture. And that when they did decide to help, they were a bit late to the party and Montsimmard looked to be hopeless.
You can't really blame a group of people (or a general) for not wasting soldiers if a battle appears unwinnable. Even if it wasn't unwinnable, if it appeared such then it's justifiable for them to not join in.
Third, we at least have the Tale of Iloren showing us that some parts of the Elven community of the Dales did indeed fight the Darkspawn of the Second Blight. Though those elements that fought it were in places far-flung from the Dales nation itself.
I'm finding it hard to really believe the Elves of the Dales wouldn't have fought the Darkspawn, honestly. Hell, most of Thedas likes to believe that Andraste didn't fight with an army of barbarians and Elves at her beck and call -- the latter due to the Canticle of Shartan being removed from the canon Chant of Light -- so I wouldn't be surprised if people decided to just say "They didn't help".
I mean, who knows how much Orlais rewrote history to make the Elves look bad?[/quote]
#91
Posté 17 mars 2013 - 03:10
Medhia Nox
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It's such a popular thing on this forum to think that the victors "always" re-write lies and that the oppressed were "always" innocent at the time of the inception of what have now become corrupt institutions (The Circle and the Elves)
I'd love for a reveal that the elves of Arlathan were all human sacrificing/slave keeping blood mages who kept their immortality through blood magic - and a human rebelling, depriving those poor poor elves their blood rituals - is what removed immortality from the elves.
====
The history of our world has been one of oppression of indigenous populations who's ONLY choice was to submit to their conquerors.
North America is full of Alienages - I mean, reservations - where Native Americans who refuse to submit to their conquerors still live. If you don't think they're still being treated poorly (instead, ignorantly mentioning casinos) you'd be a fool.
If you think they'll ever get America back - you're dreaming.
I hope you're all more outraged about that - than fictional characters.
I'd love for a reveal that the elves of Arlathan were all human sacrificing/slave keeping blood mages who kept their immortality through blood magic - and a human rebelling, depriving those poor poor elves their blood rituals - is what removed immortality from the elves.
====
The history of our world has been one of oppression of indigenous populations who's ONLY choice was to submit to their conquerors.
North America is full of Alienages - I mean, reservations - where Native Americans who refuse to submit to their conquerors still live. If you don't think they're still being treated poorly (instead, ignorantly mentioning casinos) you'd be a fool.
If you think they'll ever get America back - you're dreaming.
I hope you're all more outraged about that - than fictional characters.
#92
Posté 17 mars 2013 - 03:30
Evazin
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Medhia Nox wrote...
It's such a popular thing on this forum to think that the victors "always" re-write lies and that the oppressed were "always" innocent at the time of the inception of what have now become corrupt institutions (The Circle and the Elves)
I'd love for a reveal that the elves of Arlathan were all human sacrificing/slave keeping blood mages who kept their immortality through blood magic - and a human rebelling, depriving those poor poor elves their blood rituals - is what removed immortality from the elves.
====
The history of our world has been one of oppression of indigenous populations who's ONLY choice was to submit to their conquerors.
North America is full of Alienages - I mean, reservations - where Native Americans who refuse to submit to their conquerors still live. If you don't think they're still being treated poorly (instead, ignorantly mentioning casinos) you'd be a fool.
If you think they'll ever get America back - you're dreaming.
I hope you're all more outraged about that - than fictional characters.
I dont think anyone is outraged here (atleast i didnt saw it). Also there is kind of a difference betwen A. Native and the elves, on the way that they have not so few numbers comparade to their opressors (not enough to stand alone aginst them, though), and also that elves keep mages from the keepers and could use them on battle, an advantege not many armys outside of the rebel mages can actually claim to have.
About the blood magick, i would love if such a thing happen. I'm not a fan of "poor repressed peoplo without reason" also. But i debout bioware will do that, for whatever reason (just a feeling of my)
#93
Posté 17 mars 2013 - 05:50
Solmanian
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Presumable because the human kingdoms kicked their arses up and down the yin yang, and will do so again at the slightest provocation? We've seen that in most alienage, the human authorities can do whatever the hell they want. If the elves start becoming too much of a problem, they'll wipe out the alienages, bringing the entire race to the brink of extinction. In the human dominant society of thedas, the elves are at the very bottom.
#94
Posté 17 mars 2013 - 06:10
Solmanian
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Evazin wrote...
I dont think anyone is outraged here (atleast i didnt saw it). Also there is kind of a difference betwen A. Native and the elves, on the way that they have not so few numbers comparade to their opressors (not enough to stand alone aginst them, though), and also that elves keep mages from the keepers and could use them on battle, an advantege not many armys outside of the rebel mages can actually claim to have.
About the blood magick, i would love if such a thing happen. I'm not a fan of "poor repressed peoplo without reason" also. But i debout bioware will do that, for whatever reason (just a feeling of my)
What exactly do you think is the ratio between the humans and elves? Elves were originaly immortals. Species with long lifespan (especialy immortals) usually have very low repreductive rate (to prevent overpopulation). Just because they lost their immortality, doesn't mean the elves became ultra-fertile. We only met one dalish elf with a sister, and the city elf origin had two cousins (who weren't sibilings) and for all we know city elves may refer to any elf their age from their alienage as "cousin". It seems to me the majority of Elven families have one child if at all, with an alarming number of single parents.
#95
Posté 17 mars 2013 - 08:11
Darth Krytie
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Solmanian wrote...
Presumable because the human kingdoms kicked their arses up and down the yin yang, and will do so again at the slightest provocation? We've seen that in most alienage, the human authorities can do whatever the hell they want. If the elves start becoming too much of a problem, they'll wipe out the alienages, bringing the entire race to the brink of extinction. In the human dominant society of thedas, the elves are at the very bottom.
This is the most sensible response I've seen in this thread. Throughout both games, we've seen rape, violence, and poverty used against Elves to keep them oppressed.
I can't remember where I read it (or maybe it was in my class on Central American Revolutions) but it was stated that revolutions only work when the middle class is involved. The super impoverished are too busy trying to survive to mount a successful revolt. And I think they have a point. Most City Elves struggle to feed themselves (so far as we've seen) and fighting for better conditions and equality takes money, time, and a semblence of an agreement on what you're seeking to achieve. We've not seen that thus far.
