163 réponses à ce sujet

[philippe willaume]

EntropicAngel wrote...

This feels very OOC for you, Sylvius.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Good thing DA2 didn't do that.  Was Merrill bi?  She only has a relationship with Hawke.  If Hawke is male, then perhaps Merrill was straight. If Hawke was female, then perhaps Merrill was gay.  Why would you conclude she was ever bi?

This is a serious question you should be able to answer.

Are you presupposing that Merrill is the same person with the same preferences in every playthrough?  If so, why are you doing that?

Moreover, you're misapplying the statistics.  Yes, what you say is true of the broader real-world population.  But, even in the real world (which Thedas is not, so its stats could well be different), that doesn't mean that every subset of people will conform rigidly to that same distribution.  Even if we accept your presuppositions about Merrill and the others, it's still only your own misunderstanding of the statistics that is causing you to see this as unrealistic.

I personally would NOT conclude that she was bi--and that's where the problem lies. In the bolded, if we do NOT conclude that Merril is bi, we can conclude that her sexuality changes based on the gender of the player. She is not world-consistent.

As for the underlined, I would NOT presuppose that--and that's a huge, huge problem. Her changing based on the gender of the player character is bad. It lacks, as I said, world consistency.

I may be  a little bit thick so would you mind explaining to me what do you mean by world consistency referring to two different play through?

if we were to use the same logic, my hawke is not consistent either because he/she is not the same gender in different play through.

Each play through is a different story that has absolutely no bearing on the other play through. Meryl like a man-hawke and as far as we know does play the beast with two back with  Isabella so we can reasonably assume she is straight in that play through.
The same goeswith a gay meril with a fem-hawke
Phil

Modifié par philippe willaume, 19 mars 2013 - 05:50 .

[Shevy]

There are only a few elements which I liked in DA II, namely:

- friendship/rivalry system
- Qunari redesign
- cross class combos
- Mirror of Transformation = the option to alter your appearance during the playthrough

The rest was equal to Origins systems or, mainly, inferior.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 19 mars 2013 - 07:05 .

[brushyourteeth]

Our companions' sexuality is whatever the player interprets them to be.

That's both the beauty and the weakness of the current LI system.

At the end of the day, if the writers are ok with it, I've decided to be ok with it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

I personally would NOT conclude that she was bi--and that's where the problem lies. In the bolded, if we do NOT conclude that Merril is bi, we can conclude that her sexuality changes based on the gender of the player. She is not world-consistent.

What does that even mean?  Really.

Merrill is world-consistent within any given playthrough.  What you're saying, though, is that she isn't world-consistent across multiple playthroughs.

I would argue, though, that such a claim is nonsensical.  Merrill doesn't exist across multiple playthroughs.  The very idea of multiple playthroughs is a metagame concept, and Merrill exists only within the game.  Metagame concerns never touch her.

Within each playthrough, Merrill's sexuality is fixed (or might be - there's no reason to believe otherwise).  Each playthrough's Merrill, though, is a different Merrill.

As for the underlined, I would NOT presuppose that--and that's a huge, huge problem. Her changing based on the gender of the player character is bad. It lacks, as I said, world consistency.

She doesn't change.  She is simply different.  For her to change, she would need to persist across those realities, and she doesn't (at least, there's no reason to believe she does).

I have a feeling I know what you're going to say: that character doesn't know any better. That within that character's world, she is one way or the other, and that's that. That's true, but it doesn't excuse the fact--that a character's sexuality is determined by the gender of the player character.

That causal relationship is an extra-game event.  Within each playthrough, the relationship is merely correlative, not causal.

That's a long way of saying her sexuality is determined by the player character, which means it is not consistent.

No it isn't.  The player character doesn't decide what gender he is.

Merrill's sexuality in each playthrough is determined, indirectly, by the player.  But since the player doesn't exist within the game world (and things that don't exist can't exhibit characteristics), that causal relationship can't exist there, either.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 19 mars 2013 - 07:53 .

[Renmiri1]

- Dragons ? Yup
- Magic ? Yup
- Half dead beasts (darkspawn) ? Yup
- Monsters ? Yup
- Equal representations of all genders ? YOU CAN'T DO THAT, IT IS NOT REALISTIC!

This is getting soooo old -.-

[Beastofexmoor]

-Fast-paced combat.
-Unique Skin for confirmed LI.
-LI with Merrill's temperament.

[Silfren]

Ukki wrote...
As much as minorities go, since rasism is live and well in Thedas I see no reason why sexism could not be as well.
And before anyone jumps me I can tell you that my own brother is gay and I´ve seen personally how hard it has bee for him sometimes. I will defend my brother and his rights to death, yet I enjoy ism´s in my games.

Problem being that Bioware went to lengths to stress that Thedas is egalitarian to the extent that sexism doesn't exist.  They collectively have a really ****ty understanding of what sexism-free societies would look like,  however, since quite a lot of character attitudes are blatantly sexist, and that wouldn't be the case in a truly sexism-free culture. 

The racism is a bit different, since elves and dwarves and Qunari don't exist in reality, and such there are no real life elves, dwarves, or qunari who would identify with the fictional races and be thus upset.  Women and LBT persons, however, do exist in the real world, and many of us get bloody tired of having to deal not only with fictionalized isms (i.e. the isms that are part of the story backdrop), but also the inadvertent ism tropes that make it into the story as a result of the creators' own prejudices, conscious or not.  We get marginalized enough in the real world that we're not always keen to have to deal with the same sh*t in our entertainment.

So that's something I'd like to see again in DA3.  DA2 did a better job than most games of this nature.  It should be pointed out that doing better than everyone else doesn't mean they did a perfect job.  DA2 greatly improved upon Origins, but had problems of its own.  I'd like to see DA3 continue the trend of improvement in this area.  I still expect it to be problematic, but if the upward trend continues, that's all to the good.

[Darth Krytie]

Renmiri1 wrote...

- Dragons ? Yup
- Magic ? Yup
- Half dead beasts (darkspawn) ? Yup
- Monsters ? Yup
- Equal representations of all genders ? YOU CAN'T DO THAT, IT IS NOT REALISTIC!

This is getting soooo old -.-

So much this.

I don't get why people are so hung up on that on those aspects being like real life. We can have monsters and hit points and learn abilities through levels....but all bi love interests? Preposterous. Women aren't treated like vermin in a 'middle ages setting?' How dare they! Why isn't there more bigotry and oppression based on my real life hang ups, Dragon Age?!  I want this world to represent all the ****ty aspects of real world inequality!

Modifié par Darth Krytie, 19 mars 2013 - 09:22 .

[Silfren]

Darth Krytie wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

- Dragons ? Yup
- Magic ? Yup
- Half dead beasts (darkspawn) ? Yup
- Monsters ? Yup
- Equal representations of all genders ? YOU CAN'T DO THAT, IT IS NOT REALISTIC!

This is getting soooo old -.-

So much this.

I don't get why people are so hung up on that on those aspects being like real life. We can have monsters and hit points and learn abilities through levels....but all bi love interests? Preposterous. Women aren't treated like vermin in a 'middle ages setting?' How dare they! Why isn't there more bigotry and oppression based on my real life hang ups, Dragon Age?!  I want this world to represent all the ****ty aspects of real world inequality!

The more cynical among us think it's due to the fact that most of the people decrying the lack of realism are people who are bigots and don't want to see this content in "their" game, but know that they can't actually phrase it that way without having their bigotry called out for what it is.  Not a single person I've ever read who has objected to inclusive content has ever failed to say something that reveals their inherent bigotry in all its ugly glory.  This is because usually they can't argue the lack-of-realism without also at some point saying something negative about inclusiveness itself (those who rail against political correctness or "agendas", or some stupid admission-by-denial phrase, like "I don't have a problem with x, but...!)

The tactic of defending alleged realism--even when their arguments for realism don't actually pass muster when looked at under a historical lens--is the fallback for those whose actual arguments against inclusiveness are not socially acceptable.

[InfinitePaths]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Something DA2 did that I really liked - that I've been asking BioWare to do for years, and they hadn't since the original Baldur's Gate - is how the game didn't hand you an obvious villain to start the game.

In BG2, KotOR, NWN, JE, ME, and DAO, the PC is given a clear task pretty much right away, and that task leads directly to the big bad. Get Irenicus, Stop Malak, Cure the Plague, Rescue Master Li, Find Saren, Defeat the Blight - these were straight-ahead "here's-a-job-go-do-it" plots. Sure, the NWN plot unfolded slowly, and KotOR and JE both had big twists, but you knew what you were doing right away.

But DA2, like BG, didn't do that. That's certainly something I would like to see BioWare do again. Given us a world in which there's a bunch of stuff going on, and let us respond to it without necessarily knowing how it all fits together.

I think DA:I will do a mixture of that creating something unique.I think the plot will be something like this:
You are the Inquisitor and you have to restore peace,but how?It is entirely up to you.

[MilaBanilla]

Being a mage was much for fun. Instead running away, I can hit enemies with my stick
I also love the rogue-ninja moves even though a lot of people disliked it.
I also gotten used to the elf redesigned. I am okay with the faces just not the body. They had an extremely emaciated body. I know they are suppose to be thin but they could make them a have little more meat in those thin bones...
I also hope they bring something similar to The black emporium. 
And I also love when my character reacts to the banter of other characters. 

I loved a voiced protagonist. FemHawke's voice especially 
In DA:O, it was cool having a silent protag by leaving it to the players to imagine how they would sound but I disliked that Warden's face was so..expressionless. I swear at times I would laugh when it was a serious situation and my warden would stare back as if she was thinking of food. 
In DA2, they would show Hawke's expression which I found it very cool. I really love my sarcasm 

[seraphymon]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

I prefer realism over  convenience. Its like you have command over another sexuality. Labels are there for reasons.

Except you don't.  The sexuality of each character is fixed within each playthrough.  Hawke has no control over it.

that sentence held true in DAO. but you did have control over them in DA2, you as the player not hawke him or herself as to whether they end up bi or gay.

[TheShadowWolf911]

more Qunari

[saMoorai]

Hawke - But only if he's the main character again, which I highly doubt,

Qunari Redesign

Sebastian

Sarcasm Button.

Thats about all I can think of.

[seraphymon]

EntropicAngel wrote...

seraphymon wrote...

that sentence held true in DAO. but you did have control over them in DA2, you as the player not hawke him or herself as to whether they end up bi or gay.

Sylvius would argue that doesn't matter because you the player don't matter. You're roleplaying.

I would agree mostly with that statement, but in this particular issue no, I mean even bioware has admitted to this for Fenris and Merril, I would argue for anders as well especially for a bit of contradiction to awakening, but whatever.

[MoMan313]

for the love that all is HOLY don't get rid of the combat ;___;

and the friendship rivalry system xD (Though that in da3 is officially out the door >_>)
The I love you but HATE you from ander's rivalmance was just *drools*

[TheShadowWolf911]

....uh....Varric, Merril, and Fenris? honestly those 3 are the only things from that entire game i want to see again.

whether they be mechanics added (or the removing of) mechanics, or anything else.


Edit: forgot Tallis and her story.....which was more interesting then the DA2 storyline.

Edit 2: and the DLC involving Hawke's father, that bit was pretty cool admittedly, also that one store guy.

..........i guess the storylines from the DLC, but not the main game's, Varric, Merril, and Fenris excluded.

Modifié par TheShadowWolf911, 20 mars 2013 - 04:19 .

[Irx]

I tried hard to remember at least 1 thing I enjoyed in DA2 over DA1, but wasn't able to.
And I totally hate half the "improvements" listed in this thread, i.e.

frendship/rivalry system, all romance options are bi, dynamic fights

Well, I guess the concept of companions who have the life of their own behind the scenes and don't just wait for you at the party camp was a nice one, albeit not explored enough.

Modifié par Irxy, 20 mars 2013 - 10:48 .

[Uccio]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Krytie wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

- Dragons ? Yup
- Magic ? Yup
- Half dead beasts (darkspawn) ? Yup
- Monsters ? Yup
- Equal representations of all genders ? YOU CAN'T DO THAT, IT IS NOT REALISTIC!

This is getting soooo old -.-

So much this.

I don't get why people are so hung up on that on those aspects being like real life. We can have monsters and hit points and learn abilities through levels....but all bi love interests? Preposterous. Women aren't treated like vermin in a 'middle ages setting?' How dare they! Why isn't there more bigotry and oppression based on my real life hang ups, Dragon Age?!  I want this world to represent all the ****ty aspects of real world inequality!

The more cynical among us think it's due to the fact that most of the people decrying the lack of realism are people who are bigots and don't want to see this content in "their" game, but know that they can't actually phrase it that way without having their bigotry called out for what it is.  Not a single person I've ever read who has objected to inclusive content has ever failed to say something that reveals their inherent bigotry in all its ugly glory.  This is because usually they can't argue the lack-of-realism without also at some point saying something negative about inclusiveness itself (those who rail against political correctness or "agendas", or some stupid admission-by-denial phrase, like "I don't have a problem with x, but...!)

The tactic of defending alleged realism--even when their arguments for realism don't actually pass muster when looked at under a historical lens--is the fallback for those whose actual arguments against inclusiveness are not socially acceptable.

Maybe, then again calling people bigots just because their preference differs is to do the same thing. 
Some people enjoy realism to be the basics of their fantasy. Personally I have never liked fantasy where people can reproduce by duplicating or by laying eggs, or talking animal kingdom. For it is just too much for me. Thats why I don´t like DA2 combat and oversized weapons, no one could fight like that nor could they fight with such weapons, defying the laws of physics if you will.
I want realism where the basics are from real world with some fantasy thrown over it. Thats why I loved TW2 and took tremedous pleasure to side with saskia and her rebels, to have a change to affect things. DAO had enough fantasy without being ridiculous.

Modifié par Ukki, 20 mars 2013 - 04:55 .

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

Definitely not Button Awesome, although I did like the way mages were able to function as proper front line combatants without having to belong to a special class like Arcane Warrior. I liked friendship/ rivalry. I liked having a voiced protagonist. I liked the character designs much more than those in DA:O, barring the way the elves looked in DA2 (yuck). I liked the political aspects of the story. Yeah, I'd like those things to influence Dragon Age 3: Inquisition in some way or other.

I'm okay with every LI being bi so long as they are written with subtlety (I honestly do prefer some characters being straight, some being gay and lesbian, and others being bi; it better reflects sexual orientation in real life, but since this is how the writers have decided to handle romance, I'm not going to pester BioWare to change it). Not every LI needs to hit on the protagonist. Sometimes it's fun to figure out who is romanceable by talking to them. A character like Isabela, who is skanky, being openly flirtatious makes sense. Actually come to think of it, the way romancing Fenris is handled is exactly what I'm talking about with respect to talking to a character to find out if romatic potential exists, so yeah, I'd like to see that approach in DA3.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 20 mars 2013 - 12:11 .