1328 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

Yeah, it bothered me.

[Chewin]

TheChris92 wrote...
Indeed, the story cannot certainly be fully comprehended, unless the player explores and interacts with the world of Columbia - Although, I'd have to say that the city itself and its people took a backseat in Infinite - The story shifted its focus to the main protagonists. Columbia sort of tries to steal the spotlight, here and there, but I feel the main focus is set primarily on Elizabeth and Booker.

Agreed.

I posted in another forum my main concerns with the game, might as well post it here:

Other than a few trivial things and some small annoyance with the combat, there is one aspect in the game which is a large reason why the game does not measure up for me as much as I'd like, and that is its lack of depth of its major themes. For a game that takes up the concept of American exceptionalism, religion, racial segregation, economic inequality, jingoism, etc. there is a serious lack of depth in them and we are in the end given very little reason to become emotionally invested in anything or anyone other than Elizabeth. The entire population of Columbia is very static and shallow. Aside from the general portrayal we get from them, everything is left on the surface which in turn makes it hard to describe the overall population of the city. We know basically nothing about any of their lives or stories. And that is quite a major flaw, considering Rapture in contrast, managed to tell countless back-stories about broken families, splicing addictions, ADAM scientists, objectivism vs collectivism, and more. Personally, Rapture felt a lot more alive than Columbia did, despite the fact that almost the whole population was dead or insane.

Aside from general viewpoint of people being treated badly, the racial tension is almost non-existent. There are barely no stories of alienation, of intersectional oppression, of white supporters, of morally conflicted businessmen, of rallies and protests, and more. All we ever see are a few racially oppressed people working in washrooms and scrubbing the floors in one or two buildings. And considering how utterly devoid of depth or personality the Vox Populi supporters were, I question why racism was ever included as a theme in the first place. The Vox could have been an angry rebel group fighting for just about anything and very little would change. The game does a poor job in trying to define the views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided.

What annoys me even more is the disappointing portrayal of the two leading characters in the game. Despite everything of Comstock's overzealous preaching--the structure of the religion (which is a hybrid of Christianity and the worshiping of the Founding Fathers) and remaking of the ideological world--it is generally with little substance. Compared to Ryan and Lamb, who not only clearly expressed their motivations and philosophies and actually had personalities, Comstock's is basically non-existent. And Fitzroy is equally as poor, or perhaps worse since she lacks any real character progression. In the first universe she is portrayed as one who pursues equal rights, yet in another universe she entirely lacks morality and one who becomes corrupted by power. Of course it's possible that she would have turned into this in the original timeline as well, but alas the game didn't even try to explain it. At least the game managed to flesh out her to some extent thanks to the Voxophones. The only character (expect for Booker and Elizabeth) I enjoyed was Fink.

Despite these flaws, I still very much enjoy Infinite and I do consider it one of my favorite FPS games. But I do hope the DLCs can put a more focus on these aspects.

[Fiery Knight]

I never actually thought much about its major themes in Infinite, and what you wrote Chewin made me think about them again. It is true now that I think of it, the whole religion aspect was quite shallow (heck I still thought the religion was Christianity only that Comstock was a Prophet people worshipped) and it is true that a lot of the racial segregation was only limited to a few black people cleaning bathrooms.

Though still, I don't consider it that bad. At least the game showed it to us, instead of mentioning them. But a good summary nonethless Chew! Glad that you at least still enjoy the game

[Isichar]

So I have been thinking DLC for Bioshock. I would like to see Irrational games try something new in terms of combat with at least 1 of them since that is one of the games few weak points overall.

[BouncyFrag]

Isichar wrote...

So I have been thinking DLC for Bioshock. I would like to see Irrational games try something new in terms of combat with at least 1 of them since that is one of the games few weak points overall.

Throughout the game I was expecting confronting Daisy and Fink so I wouldn't be surprised if we see something related to that.

[Fiery Knight]

I'm a bit worried that the next DLCs won't feature Booker and Elizabeth. Dunno, I kinda have a feeling it will focus on other characters in Columbia, a little like Minerva's Den. Not a bad thing per see, but I'd rather play as Booker with Liz again.

[Chewin]

Hawke_12 wrote...

I'm a bit worried that the next DLCs won't feature Booker and Elizabeth. Dunno, I kinda have a feeling it will focus on other characters in Columbia, a little like Minerva's Den. Not a bad thing per see, but I'd rather play as Booker with Liz again.

From a gameplay perspective, it sounds logical that the DLC would at least include Elizabeth with her manipulations of Tears to summon objects during combat and such. Of course, it's possible the DLC may find a way around this by the player character having a controllable machine of some sorts, or the "Tears in combat" concept is entirely removed, which I doubt.

[TurianRebel212]

I hope we get songbird origins DLC. That would be cool.

[OdanUrr]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

I hope we get songbird origins DLC. That would be cool.

Imagine if we got to travel to Rapture to steal the plans for the Big Daddy and repurpose it as Songbird?

[TurianRebel212]

OdanUrr wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

I hope we get songbird origins DLC. That would be cool.

Imagine if we got to travel to Rapture to steal the plans for the Big Daddy and repurpose it as Songbird?

That would be awesome. 

[OdanUrr]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

I hope we get songbird origins DLC. That would be cool.

Imagine if we got to travel to Rapture to steal the plans for the Big Daddy and repurpose it as Songbird?

That would be awesome. 

Maybe we could travel as a younger Comstock? That way, we'd still be playing as Booker, after a fashion.

[Fiery Knight]

Chewin3 wrote...
From a gameplay perspective, it sounds logical that the DLC would at least include Elizabeth with her manipulations of Tears to summon objects during combat and such. Of course, it's possible the DLC may find a way around this by the player character having a controllable machine of some sorts, or the "Tears in combat" concept is entirely removed, which I doubt.

Makes sense, I certainly hope that's the case, that they don't remove the tears aspect or add something else to it.

Is it just me, or am I the only one that wants a DLC where we visit Paris and eat croissants with Elizabeth?

[OdanUrr]

Hawke_12 wrote...

Is it just me, or am I the only one that wants a DLC where we visit Paris and eat croissants with Elizabeth?

I could see it as an ending DLC, but then the game would end rather early.

[Fiery Knight]

Hah! Indeed!

Maybe just a cute little cut-scene of sorts along with a more major DLC then!

[M Hedonist]

@Chewin3: Very enlightening post, I would also say that Rapture seemed more alive and real than Columbia ever did. And I would always agree that the tears you go through mid-game only hurt the story - which brought about the unexplained transition from 'equal rights' Fitzroy to 'bat**** insane' Fitzroy.

The tears you go through just unnecessarily complicated the story. When Elizabeth mourned the people who died in the revolution and claimed it was all our fault I didn't feel anything. From my understanding, we were just visiting a parallel universe. And/or that we could just go back to our own universe if we wanted to. If the game had us actually save Chen Lin and get the weapons for the revolution, I would have understood Elizabeth. Killing bad guys in a different universe also seemed somewhat pointless to me.
I feel the tears were just brought in because they were running out of time/resources. I can't imagine them thinking that was actually a good idea.

Except for the part where we jump to the far future in Comstock House. That was superb.

Modifié par Sauruz, 19 avril 2013 - 11:18 .

[LPPrince]

Thread needs more support for Get Elizabeth A Poodle DLC

[OdanUrr]

It's difficult to top the Little Sisters.

[TheClonesLegacy]

Gonna throw my hat into ring regarding the plot. From what I've read, the original plot was going to be about futurists fighting luddites (What Luddites were doing in a flying city to begin with...I don't know) and Elizabeth was just a powerful telepath with a much larger breast size. So honestly I prefer the direction the game went with in the end, even if certain plot elements reminded me of Infamous to an extent.

[Terraforming2154]

TheClonesLegacy wrote...

Gonna throw my hat into ring regarding the plot. From what I've read, the original plot was going to be about futurists fighting luddites (What Luddites were doing in a flying city to begin with...I don't know) and Elizabeth was just a powerful telepath with a much larger breast size. So honestly I prefer the direction the game went with in the end, even if certain plot elements reminded me of Infamous to an extent.

Hah, really? I really didn't keep up with the development info for this game. That actually sounds like fun, but I can see how Columbia would make the Luddites a bit of stretch.

I'm looking forward to DLC for this game -- I feel like there is a lot that they can really explore, even if Booker and Elizabeth aren't the focal point. I pretty much want more of the Luteces though.

Modifié par Terraforming2154, 20 avril 2013 - 02:33 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Sauruz wrote...

@Chewin3: Very enlightening post, I would also say that Rapture seemed more alive and real than Columbia ever did. And I would always agree that the tears you go through mid-game only hurt the story - which brought about the unexplained transition from 'equal rights' Fitzroy to 'bat**** insane' Fitzroy.

The tears you go through just unnecessarily complicated the story. When Elizabeth mourned the people who died in the revolution and claimed it was all our fault I didn't feel anything. From my understanding, we were just visiting a parallel universe. And/or that we could just go back to our own universe if we wanted to. If the game had us actually save Chen Lin and get the weapons for the revolution, I would have understood Elizabeth. Killing bad guys in a different universe also seemed somewhat pointless to me.
I feel the tears were just brought in because they were running out of time/resources. I can't imagine them thinking that was actually a good idea.

Except for the part where we jump to the far future in Comstock House. That was superb.

I agree that it doesn't all fit as well as it should, though providing I understood that whilst there were unlimited dimensions Booker and Elizabeth would always remain constant, merging with their alternate reality counterparts (hence why Booker bleeds from the nose in that universe because of having died for the Vox Populi}, I thought it worked decently enough not to break immersion. 

The other thing which excused the can-of-worms leaps of convenience that were the various plot points concerning the switching of dimensions was the obvious need for the game to set up the idea of the tears and traveling between them. Even if the events leading to the final act don't make as much sense as they could, I'd argue that they were necessary for the rest of the story to have a foundation. 

[LPPrince]

[The Night Mammoth]

Also, because I doubt this has been posted yet, MovieBob from the Escapist did a pretty decent video on his views concerning the end and the general plot, for anyone who's interested.

I'd certainly recommend checking it out.

And yes, a poodle for Elizabeth would be a worthy DLC addition, full support on that front. Maybe if Irrational do that, BioWare will take note and give us dinosaurs for Mass Effect. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 20 avril 2013 - 05:18 .

[Chewin]

Terraforming2154 wrote...
Hah, really? I really didn't keep up with the development info for this game. That actually sounds like fun, but I can see how Columbia would make the Luddites a bit of stretch.

Infinite went through a lot of changes during its development. Even when they implemented Elizabeth, Comstock, Fitzroy, Founders, Vox, etc. into the story, the premise was entirely different than what the released game focused on.

Looking through old articles and trailers, I get the feeling that the story revolved less around the relationships of the main characters, and more around the city of Columbia. Comstock wasn't a prophet but instead a politician, and from the propaganda posters it seemed that there wasn't any "Comstock-worshiping" but rather the general worshiping of the American elitism. Elizabeth used telekinesis instead of manipulation of Tears and I doubt the idea of multiverse was even there.

Ultimately I think the old Bioshock Infinite plot was Booker coming to rescue Elizabeth in an already collapsed society and unraveling city, with a war between the differing ideologies of the Vox and the Founders having already existed for a while, and a far more hostile populace being presented. I think the biggest difference was that they changed the narrative focus of Columbia in the form of religious zealotry instead of the focus on American hyper-nationalism. That's of course not a bad thing, but I personally prefer the concept of what they presumably had original planned for Infinite, since I think that a perverted obsession with the American dream is much more interesting than mere cultist fanaticism.

And on an unrelated note, it was Booker DeWitt's birthday yesterday (or is today depending on where you are)! Let's parteyy!

Modifié par Chewin3, 20 avril 2013 - 08:07 .

[Isichar]

Me and Booker share the same birthday, coolbeans.

[Chewin]

Which automatically means you are Booker from an alternate universe!

Anyhow, congrats to you as well then.