4712 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Ryzaki

Well...fine, point taken.

That only applies to low EMS, though.

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Ryzaki

Where are you getting your information?

Refuse equals 100% death rate.
Low EMS Destroy equals at most 99.9% death rate.

Math....

What? Did you even *listen* during the game?

it's said time and time again Reapers only kill a small portion of organic life. (It's why Shep and Co are alive to fight them later).

The destroy blast? Doesn't just hit civilized races. It's hits *everyone*.

Refuse is only a 100% death rate for advanced races. Low EMS Destroy? 99% death rate for EVERYONE. Shep screws over all galatic life with low ems Destroy. He doesn't do that with refuse.

But...

The Reapers will kill those uncivilized people in time. Using the Crucible ends the cylce, one way or another.

That assumes they don't ever manage to stop the Reapers (there's a reason Liara left those holothings around). Don't have to necessarily use the Crucible to end the cycle (well apparently according to BW saying FU with the refuse ending via twitter you do but...ugh). ANYWAY with enough forwarning it's possible for the Reapers to be defeated conventionally. Even if it takes another few cycles.

Low EMS destroy completely destroys any possibility of that happening.

@tevix: Never said it didn't. Just was arguing the whole "Shep doesn't kill more than he saves!" ...when that's a viable option in game.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 mars 2013 - 03:41 .

[tevix]

@Ryzaki

You can't really say that low EMS destroy eliminates the possibility of ever defeating the reapers conventially. That's a little bit of head-canon there.

Shepard has no way of knowing if it will ever happen either, but he DOES know killing the reapers ends the reaper threat NOW, and permanently.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Ryzaki

Where are you getting your information?

Refuse equals 100% death rate.
Low EMS Destroy equals at most 99.9% death rate.

Math....

What? Did you even *listen* during the game?

it's said time and time again Reapers only kill a small portion of organic life. (It's why Shep and Co are alive to fight them later).

The destroy blast? Doesn't just hit civilized races. It's hits *everyone*.

Refuse is only a 100% death rate for advanced races. Low EMS Destroy? 99% death rate for EVERYONE. Shep screws over all galatic life with low ems Destroy. He doesn't do that with refuse.

Actually, @Ryzaki might be right on that.

The Reapers leave all the pre-spaceflight races, like the Yhag, alone.
But the Relays project the Anhliation blast-wave across every system, with the same devestating effects as on Earth, meaning that at the very least, every system with a Relay in it is screwed. Palaven (turians), Thessia (asari), Tuchanka (krogan), Kajhe (hanar & drell), Irune (volus), Kar'shan (batarians, what's left of them), Sur'Kesh (salarians), Rannoch (quarians & geth). The only worlds that would be spared are ones that aren't in the Cluster's relay system, like Dekunna (elcor) and Heshtok (vorcha homeworld). Possibly Parnack (yahg) as well, but IDK where it is or if there's a relay next to it.
Even then, the low EMS wave is conformed to do heavy damage to technology, so anyone alive will be screwed over because all tech in the galaxy, from V.I.s to ship cores will be DOA (see Normandy being hit by blast-wave, and how it fries the ship engines. THAT happens to all tech everywhere thanks to Low EMS Destroy, even pre-spaceflight tech if it's Mass Effect or Eezo-based). That includes any pre-spaceflight races in the galaxy too.
So, when you think about it @Ryzaki is actually more or less right. Low EMS Destroy is more harmful to the galaxy then letting the cycle end, becuase every race, pre-spaceflight included, is returned to the stone-age, with zero resources to rebuild from because they were either all taken by the Reaper's harvests, or used to build the Crucible and resist the Reapers. The galaxy is left more depleated and barren then if the Reapers HAD won, because the pre-spaceflight races would have been spared by the Reapers. Unlike they are with the Low EMS Destroy.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...


That assumes they don't ever manage to stop the Reapers (there's a reason Liara left those holothings around). Don't have to necessarily use the Crucible to end the cycle (well apparently according to BW saying FU with the refuse ending via twitter you do but...ugh). ANYWAY with enough forwarning it's possible for the Reapers to be defeated conventionally. Even if it takes another few cycles.

Low EMS destroy completely destroys any possibility of that happening.

@tevix: Never said it didn't. Just was arguing the whole "Shep doesn't kill more than he saves!" ...when that's a viable option in game.

I get what you are saying.

What exactly is said in the low EMS ending to Shepard? 

My main point, is that Shepard did not "join" the Reapers to assist them in the cycle. The Geth did. They gave up their free will in order to stay alive for another day, they did not join the Reapers to stop them as Shepard did.

[Ryzaki]

tevix wrote...

@Ryzaki

You can't really say that low EMS destroy eliminates the possibility of ever defeating the reapers conventially. That's a little bit of head-canon there.

Shepard has no way of knowing if it will ever happen either, but he DOES know killing the reapers ends the reaper threat NOW, and permanently.

...I'm *not* saying that? It might be jumbled but I'm grumbling about BW's twitter "well the next cycle used the crucible anwyay so refuse meant nothing neerneer neerneer "

I'm simply saying Refuse kills a heck of a lot less people than bad destroy.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 mars 2013 - 04:02 .

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


That assumes they don't ever manage to stop the Reapers (there's a reason Liara left those holothings around). Don't have to necessarily use the Crucible to end the cycle (well apparently according to BW saying FU with the refuse ending via twitter you do but...ugh). ANYWAY with enough forwarning it's possible for the Reapers to be defeated conventionally. Even if it takes another few cycles.

Low EMS destroy completely destroys any possibility of that happening.

@tevix: Never said it didn't. Just was arguing the whole "Shep doesn't kill more than he saves!" ...when that's a viable option in game.

I get what you are saying.

What exactly is said in the low EMS ending to Shepard? 

My main point, is that Shepard did not "join" the Reapers to assist them in the cycle. The Geth did. They gave up their free will in order to stay alive for another day, they did not join the Reapers to stop them as Shepard did.

True. But the geth joined the Reapers to live. I don't see that as such a terrible thing.

[Hazegurl]

tevix wrote...

@Hazegurl

You failed to address the most damning point of differance between the geth/reaper alliance and accepting one of the choices at the end. I'll reiterate.

The geth would willingly take part in the utter annihilation of all life in the galaxy.

Why not? If they joined the Reapers it is natural that they would help continue the cycle. Also, not everything in the galaxy will be wiped out as younger species will be left alone as with every cycle. Mind you I don't agree with what the reapers are doing, nor do I condone it. They need to be stopped and if there was no way to save the Geth then they would need to be stopped as well. It was their choice to side with them. But why should the Geth accept death to save organics? What do they owe organics that they should lay down their lives? Nothing. So I can forgive them, and even see the potential in keeping them alive with the reaper upgrades.

Even low EMS destroy does not utterly destroy all life in the galaxy.

Wait, doesn't it destory even the younger planets the Reapers would have left alone?

In destroy, the philosiphy is that you rid the galaxy of the reapers once and for all, in order to save as many as possible from their harvest.

That is just one of the opinions you/Shepard can have about it. The entire philosophy behind the three choices is the starkid's logic that organics and synthetics can never reach a peaceful solution. Why would he add the destory option if not to further the logic that the two sides can never have peace and thus Shepard can end the threat by killing them all.

In control you do not join the reapers. You become the reapers. You control them, they no longer automatically harvest. What happens in control is up to you, it's never made 100% clear.

Joining them and ruling them is the same. Can't rule a country without joining it.

In synthesis it is arguable that you join the reapers, but no one dies.

Except you accept their overall agenda. The very reason why they were killing everything for millions of years. Proving them right in their actions.

In one of those choices is 100% of life in the galaxy eliminted. The geth/reaper alliance on the other hand has EXACTLY that goal. The geth also do not make the choice to try to better the galaxy, they do it only for themselves, even if it kills everyone else.

Not the same.

100% of life seems to be eliminated or on the brink with low EMS destory, if they also target younger planets with life forms, I can't recall.

The choice to better the galaxy is not given to the Geth. Just the choice to accept reaper help. That is what makes it the same. Shepard can accept reaper help, regardless of the intent behind it, he/she accepts reaper help when you pick starkid's options. Besides, the Geth don't have to care about the galaxy, they were preparing to fight the reapers before the Quarians interfered. So I blame the Quarians more than anything for how things turned out.

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Hazegurl

Well, the end result of the geth/reaper alliance is the geth assisting in the death of all life in the galaxy, organic and synthetic. And that's JUST to save ONLY themselves, at the cost of EVERYONE.

The choice at the end, if you feel it to be accepting reaper help, does not KILL EVERYONE. And shepard does not do it to save just himself, or even just humanity.

Unless you're roleplaying as a humanist renegade shepard, but that's something else entirely.

Low EMS destroy.

Harms far more people than Shep saves. Even races that have nothing to fear from the Reapers (for the moment).

Ah, I missed this. I couldn't recall if low EMS destoryed even the younger planets, life forms etc.

[tevix]

@Hazegurl

--One can argue neither the geth nor organics have any reason to care about each other. This leads to a circular argument that has caused this 105 page thread that I'm not getting into again.

--Low EMS destroy argument has already been had out

--Ending interpretation discussion not for this thread

--In the case of control, the analogy of ruling a country doesn't work so well. If america were taken over by an anarchist individual who only wanted to see war, and this individual had 100% absolute, unchallangable control over every individual, it would no longer be america.

The geth join the reapers to continue the harvest, to wipe out signifcant amounts of life.

Synthesis may be joining the reapers, but it is to END the harvest, to PREVENT significant amounts of death.

Pretty big differances

Choosing low EMS destroy over refuse is akin to the geth, slaughter to save one's self.

[Ryzaki]

@Haze:  @27:10

I pretty much inferred it from the "few organics will survive" and blowing up all technology and relays.

They're not just disabled like in neutral/good destroy they're flat out exploded. That would have side effects.

"Your crucible device is severely damaged. The energy it releases will destroy the relays creating a chain reaction that will be unpredicatable and devastating. (pretty much imagining Arrival...but all over the place instead of one system) All technology  and those who rely on synthetic technology will be lost yourself included. Your ship, weapons even the relays will be destroyed your worlds will be in ruins. Few organics will survive the blast fewer still will survive the days to come."

Hackett is shown in a pitch black ship giving a narration and there's no pics of the future like there are in the other endings. Just him hoping the lessons aren't forgotten and a soldier in a ruined earth picking up a battered helmet. Then...it cuts to Buzz.

And now I'm sad becuause Hackett sounds like he's either dying or believes he's close to death because the way he says survivors is like he's not including himself.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 mars 2013 - 04:40 .

[TuringPoint]

I see it as an incredible fallacy to believe sentient AI would have no limitations.

Energy is still a limitation for any being - energy, waste, and entropy. They might not need to take bathroom breaks or eat, but they still have to repair and recharge and otherwise maintain themselves. If they were anything like our current technology, it's very likely they would require even more maintenance than we do.

But I guess that might not apply to this fictional setting. Carry on!

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The geth stop shooting because they lost the Reaper upgrades and are shell-shocked by the lack of processing power. They would still be shooting, because just  like the quarians have assumed the geth are not willing to negotiate, the geth have assumed the quarians are not willing to negotiate.

This has nothing to do with the point.  Once again, provide me with evidence that Shep has to convince or talk to the Geth about peace?  You can't because he doesn't. The entire pargon and renegade options are Shep trying to convince the Quarians. 

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 05:04 .

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...
Well, the fact that Legion flat-out says the geth panicked and failed to consider any other possibilities because survival took priority was kind of a big hint.

Also, Legion himself states that he regreats what the geth did, and that he himself seems to wish that the geth had refused. When Shepard states the geth are "better then this," Legion says "...No. Based on emperical evidence ..... they are not." Legion shows nothing but remorse for the geth's decision to side with the Reapers.

Leigon does not say that.

www.youtube.com/watch around 9:15 Legion states that their intelligence dimmed and the attack narrowed the Geth perspective. So self preservation was top priority. It does prove me wrong in my speculation that they must have voted. They pretty much couldn't based on Leigon's account of their weakened intelligence. It proves me wrong and I'll admit it but your account of that conversation seems to be bias.

www.youtube.com/watch Start of the video. Leigon and Shepard are talking about Leigon carrying reaper upgrades, thus he can hack into any Geth systems. Leigon is "ashamed" because he did not tell Shepard. That conversation has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the reapers.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

1 More fabricated evidence. I have proven Geth willingly kill Innocnets. I have,and you choose to ignore it.

2.Exactly,you can not provide the evidence you are claiming. Those events are NOT in question.

3.Ok. I was curious.

4.Wrong. Shepard convinces the Geth to stop shooting at the Quarians by getting the Quarians to settle for Peace. Or the Geth shoot back without ever offering a peaceful solution. I am not stating they have to,you just keep telling me the Geth are peaceful and Innocent, That has to be a joke right? Your statements back this. They are engaged in a war,Gerrel is not killing Innocent Geth who stood down. You completely ignore the lore here.

5 Again you ignore the lore and my statement.

Just wow.

The Burden of proof lies with the accusing party. If you are accusing my statements to be false,you must prove so. You have not and can not,yet I have done so more then once. Proven in my last post.

1.  Where is this evidence.  I have not seen it.

2.  The evidence is in the fact the harmless AI seen in the Citadel archives was killed and the Quarians tried to kill the then harmless Geth.

4.  Shepard convinces the Geth of nothing.  At no point during the pargon or renegade options does Shep have to convince the Geth of anything.  The entire discussion is him trying to convince the Quarians. 

5.  You claimed to have evidence.  You have yet to provide it.

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Haze:  @27:10

I pretty much inferred it from the "few organics will survive" and blowing up all technology and relays.

They're not just disabled like in neutral/good destroy they're flat out exploded. That would have side effects.

"Your crucible device is severely damaged. The energy it releases will destroy the relays creating a chain reaction that will be unpredicatable and devastating. (pretty much imagining Arrival...but all over the place instead of one system) All technology  and those who rely on synthetic technology will be lost yourself included. Your ship, weapons even the relays will be destroyed your worlds will be in ruins. Few organics will survive the blast fewer still will survive the days to come."

Hackett is shown in a pitch black ship giving a narration and there's no pics of the future like there are in the other endings. Just him hoping the lessons aren't forgotten and a soldier in a ruined earth picking up a battered helmet. Then...it cuts to Buzz.

And now I'm sad becuause Hackett sounds like he's either dying or believes he's close to death because the way he says survivors is like he's not including himself.

Wow. I was always meaning to watch a low EMS ending. Poor failure Shepard. LOL! At least the reapers are dead.

[Hazegurl]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Haze:  @27:10

I pretty much inferred it from the "few organics will survive" and blowing up all technology and relays.

They're not just disabled like in neutral/good destroy they're flat out exploded. That would have side effects.

"Your crucible device is severely damaged. The energy it releases will destroy the relays creating a chain reaction that will be unpredicatable and devastating. (pretty much imagining Arrival...but all over the place instead of one system) All technology  and those who rely on synthetic technology will be lost yourself included. Your ship, weapons even the relays will be destroyed your worlds will be in ruins. Few organics will survive the blast fewer still will survive the days to come."

Hackett is shown in a pitch black ship giving a narration and there's no pics of the future like there are in the other endings. Just him hoping the lessons aren't forgotten and a soldier in a ruined earth picking up a battered helmet. Then...it cuts to Buzz.

And now I'm sad becuause Hackett sounds like he's either dying or believes he's close to death because the way he says survivors is like he's not including himself.

Wow. I was always meaning to watch a low EMS ending. Poor failure Shepard. LOL! At least the reapers are dead.
stupid double post.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 29 mars 2013 - 04:47 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The geth stop shooting because they lost the Reaper upgrades and are shell-shocked by the lack of processing power. They would still be shooting, because just  like the quarians have assumed the geth are not willing to negotiate, the geth have assumed the quarians are not willing to negotiate.

 

Provide me the evidence that the Geth want peace before Shepard's interrupt.

As you say the Council has laws forbidding the Geth... When it is only the creation of new AI. The Council has killed Innocent and Harmless Synthetics. So they hate and want to kill all synthetics. Well using that logic the Geth have killed Innocent and Harmless Organics and refuse for any type of communication between them and Organics. They allow themselves to speak to Reapers though. So this must mean that the Geth hate and want to kill all organic life right?

Killing Harmless Innocents=Killing Harmless Innocents.
Forbidding the creation of New AI= Forbidding the communication between Geth and Organics allowing for NO avenue of Peace.

Silver statement is Lore. Legion + VI confirm this. I provided the evidence and you still choose to Ignore it.

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 04:48 .

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Ryzaki

You can't really say that low EMS destroy eliminates the possibility of ever defeating the reapers conventially. That's a little bit of head-canon there.

Shepard has no way of knowing if it will ever happen either, but he DOES know killing the reapers ends the reaper threat NOW, and permanently.

And potentially paves the way for the real synthetic threat to be born so Harbinger can shake his head and say, "told these mother****ers that without us they create a synthetic race that destroys them all."  The Geth are basically the cave men of synthetics.  They were never the threat to organics that the Reapers were designed to defeat.  The whole point is the Reapers harvest organic life before they can create such a threat.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

www.youtube.com/watch 

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Provide me the evidence that the Geth want peace before Shepard's interrupt.

As you say the Council has laws forbidding the Geth... When it is only the creation of new AI. The Council has killed Innocent and Harmless Synthetics. So they hate and want to kill all synthetics. Well using that logic the Geth have killed Innocent and Harmless Organics and refuse for any type of communication between them and Organics. They allow themselves to speak to Reapers though. So this must mean that the Geth hate and want to kill all organic life right?

Killing Harmless Innocents=Killing Harmless Innocents.
Forbidding the creation of New AI= Forbidding the communication between Geth and Organics allowing for NO avenue of Peace.

Silver statement is Lore. Legion + VI confirm this. I provided the evidence and you still choose to Ignore it.

1.  The Geth's only condition for peace is for the a**holes to stop shooting at them.  That is not a condition for peace, that is the normal state of being for anyone.  If you are not actively trying to kill someone then they won't try and kill you.  The Quarians on the other hand want to kill what they believe are defenseless Geth.

2.  The Council and it's races killed AI that posed no immediate threat.  The Geth killed people after they were attacked.  Unless I missed the scene where the AI in the Citadel Archives and the Geth attacked first then your example makes no sense.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

1.) So NO you can not provide the evidence? Figured. The Quarians want to retake their homeworld from what
they consider to be a completely hostile race. Also lmao. You prove the Geth kill innocents with a statement such as this. "If you are not actively trying to kill someone then they won't try and kill you." I guess the Geth had to be actively trying to kill someone,for someone to try and kill them.

2.)The Geth kill completely harmless organics and allow for no avenue of peace,but yet it is justified and they are innocent and peaceful creatures.. At least Gerrel shot ships during a war.  What? The Geth "monitor" organics. They knew these ships were simply curious and peaceful,still killed harmless, innocent, and defenseless organics and cut all ties.  Even attempts at peace,but not communication with the Reapers.

So yea? The Geth hate and must want to kill all Organics based off of a few events.

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 05:19 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The geth stop shooting because they lost the Reaper upgrades and are shell-shocked by the lack of processing power. They would still be shooting, because just  like the quarians have assumed the geth are not willing to negotiate, the geth have assumed the quarians are not willing to negotiate.

This has nothing to do with the point.  Once again, provide me with evidence that Shep has to convince or talk to the Geth about peace?  You can't because he doesn't. The entire pargon and renegade options are Shep trying to convince the Quarians. 

You doged my question.
I asked YOU for proof that the geth were in on this when Legion spicifically tells you that it is both isolated ans working seperate from the other geth, as evidenced by how it turns on them.
The simple truth is that the geth were completely left out of the loop. Shepard contacting the quarians does NOT prove that the geth were in on it. They were BOTH in the dark. Shepard doesn't need to contact the geth because Shepard DOES know they are no threat to organics without the upgrades. Gerrel DOESN'T know this, and thinks that, like the rest of the galaxy believes, the geth were a threat REGARDLESS of the upgrades. When you tell Gerrel otherwise, he stands down. Shepard doesn't contact the geth because they are currently not a threat. Them being in on it never happened and has nothing to do with why they weren't contacted instead.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Well, the fact that Legion flat-out says the geth panicked and failed to consider any other possibilities because survival took priority was kind of a big hint.

Also, Legion himself states that he regreats what the geth did, and that he himself seems to wish that the geth had refused. When Shepard states the geth are "better then this," Legion says "...No. Based on emperical evidence ..... they are not." Legion shows nothing but remorse for the geth's decision to side with the Reapers.

Leigon does not say that.

www.youtube.com/watch around 9:15 Legion states that their intelligence dimmed and the attack narrowed the Geth perspective. So self preservation was top priority. It does prove me wrong in my speculation that they must have voted. They pretty much couldn't based on Leigon's account of their weakened intelligence. It proves me wrong and I'll admit it but your account of that conversation seems to be bias.

www.youtube.com/watch Start of the video. Leigon and Shepard are talking about Leigon carrying reaper upgrades, thus he can hack into any Geth systems. Leigon is "ashamed" because he did not tell Shepard. That conversation has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the reapers.

That's my POINT. They didn't consider any other options because survuval took priority, and they grabbed whatever was in front of them. You proved me right.

Too far ahead. When discussing how the geth became allied with the Reapers, Shepard asks if the geth really believe survival is worth the loss of their free will, to which Legion says "that is evidently an acceptible trade," showing that it doesn't seem to agree with it. As well as it's admission that the geth are not "better then this." Also, It says that it didn't tell Shepard that it had the codes because it was a "personal" matter. That seems to suggest shame at taking the codes rather then shame at lying about them.

[Red Panda]

I would save the Geth so the quarians would die because they made troublemaking synthetics. That may be judgemental, but I'm a bad person. Next, I would choose destroy to genocide all life. Then, I could rebuild the Geth and make them my eternal slaves without Quarian interference.

Perfect plan.