4712 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

Rip504 wrote...


What is going on between the Geth and Quarians before the Geth "stop" firing? When the Reaper Control Signal is deactivated the Geth lose their function,until Legion or the VI establish the new Signal. Legion is trying to establish the connection to wipe out it's enemy,before the enemy wipe them out. Legion is NOT trying for peace,it is trying to survive by wiping out the Quarians. Which is completely understandable,but it is not striving for Peace.
It directly states "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way."  www.youtube.com/watch Shepard offers peace between the two and both sides accept. Before this,they are fully willing to kill each other. Shepard offers peace,not the Geth,not the Quarians. Yes the Quarians get killed for attacking the Geth. No one is debating that,why keep repeating it? It is an Obvious fact. Yet when you are in a war vs an enemy capable and willing of destroying you that has yet to offer peace, Why not take the chance to destroy that enemy when you can?

Actually, the bolded part in this snip is false.  You can, of course, watch the video you provided as saying this as the only proof you need.  Thanks for not forcing me to search another vid though.  Legion is trying to improve his people by uploading the code, not destroy the Quarians.

At 6:53:  Legion:  Shepard Commander, the Geth only acted in defense, after the Creators attacked.  Do we deserve death?

We know from the conference room that the Quarians did indeed start the war, so I don't see how you figure the Geth joined the Reapers to wipe out all organics/join the harvest.  This is false, and contradicts what we are given in game.

At 7:15  Legion, in response to Tali stating that they would be as smart as when the Reaper was controlling them:  Yes, but with free will.  Each Geth unit would be a true intelligence.  We would be alive, and we could help you.

Yep, sounds like they wanted to join the harvest, eh?  So, to paraphrase you; yes, please come to conversations armed with facts, and maybe watch your videos before you link them, so that they don't contradict what you're trying to state as facts.  They regret the deaths of the Creators when they do have to kill them, because they didn't want the war.  This is also in game, not data mined, or cherry picked from a novel/comic book.  It is from the game, and because it is from the game, it is 100% accurate.  The game tells it's story.  Supplemental lore that contradicts in game lore is in error.

On a separate, but related note, I could not find the codex entries for the Geth War/Morning War.  Can somebody link me someplace on the web?

[Khelish]

robertthebard wrote...

On a separate, but related note, I could not find the codex entries for the Geth War/Morning War.  Can somebody link me someplace on the web?

I was actually wrong. "Billions" is not in the codex.

It is in one of the books.

Mass Effect: Revelation. Death toll for the quarians was in the billions:

"The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."

This does not conflict with any information in-game. Spoken from the writer himself. Deinon has posted this before.

Edit: Again, simple math. Few million survivors makes less than one percent survival rate. Billions died.

Modifié par Khelish, 29 mars 2013 - 05:36 .

[Hazegurl]

tevix wrote...

@Hazegurl

--One can argue neither the geth nor organics have any reason to care about each other. This leads to a circular argument that has caused this 105 page thread that I'm not getting into again.

Don't want to get into it either. Especially since my entire point was that it is hypocritial to punish the Geth for accepting reaper aid to live then turn around and accept reaper aid to live.

--Low EMS destroy argument has already been had out

Never planned to argue Low EMS ending. Just that Shepard can accept reaper aid for the best possible outcome.

--Ending interpretation discussion not for this thread

Don't want to derail into that discussion. As my point is that all three options are accepting reaper aid.

--In the case of control, the analogy of ruling a country doesn't work so well. If america were taken over by an anarchist individual who only wanted to see war, and this individual had 100% absolute, unchallangable control over every individual, it would no longer be america.

Not really, I mean can we honestly say America is the same country that was founded long ago? We used to have "mind your business" on our money, now its "In God we trust" and our pledge of allegiance was changed to include God in the 1950s due to religious zealots holding all the cards for so long. America is still America, it just changes due to whichever group is in power. So yes a person can rule America and the country would still be America. The rules will just change as they already have.  But I won't argue that as it has nothing to do with Shepard ruling Reapers. Which he does. He becomes the Reaper King. So yeah he joined the reapers. We just have to agree to disagree.

The geth join the reapers to continue the harvest, to wipe out signifcant amounts of life.

They won't be doing anything differently than what the reapers are already doing...And it seems you have no problems with accepting their help in exchange for the lives of organics...unless you picked refuse. Heck even Synthesis mirrors Leigon's sacrifice to deliever the code. Leigon must die to complete the upgrade and Shepard must die to complete the upgrade.

Synthesis may be joining the reapers, but it is to END the harvest, to PREVENT significant amounts of death.

Hence my point that it seems to be okay to join the reapers if you want to spare organics.  Every excuse in the book can be used to justify it but Geth have zero justification for joining reapers?

It also seems to be okay to justify them slaughtering trillions of lives for millions of years....for that upgrade...oh yeah and only when Shepard does it.

I just can't get over the double standard here that Geth can't join the reapers to spare their own kind. They have to either die for the good of the galaxy or die for the lives of Quarians because one idiot needs to be told multiple times to stand down.

Choosing low EMS destroy over refuse is akin to the geth, slaughter to save one's self.

I never said anyone should pick low EMS destory over refuse. My Shepard has always been a High EMS destoryer. My argument is that people who live in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. If you can't refuse the Reapers when the lives of organics are on the line then who are you to say the Geth should refuse them when their lives are on the line? That's all.

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...

It was stated that Legion has established a cease fire and is attempting peace in this moment.

I agree that Legion is trying to "upgrade" it's people. Though Legion can not do this if they are defenseless and dead. Establishing the code ensures survival.

6:53 Legion is informing Shepard of the upload. They will die if Legion does not upload the code. I do not understand how Legion stating "do we deserve death" is proof that it was not intending to destroy the Quarians to survive once the upload is completed. As w/o the Interrupt this is what happens. The way to prevent the Geth's death,is to allow Legion to upload the code. Wanting to defend their people and survive is lore as well for the Geth.

The Geth willingly became enslaved tools of the Reapers. The Geth are fully aware of the Reaper's intent. The Geth intent is to what? Defend themselves against the Quarians by becoming enslaved tools of the species killing all civilized life? They knew what would be asked of them for a Reaper/Geth alliance. They agreed and joined the Reapers to help harvest this cycle as enslaved tools. An Alliance,both parties agreed to help the other with their situations. Yes the Quarians attacked,yes the Geth did it in defense. Yet they were aware of what they were being asked to do,and agreed.

Lol 7:15 the entire Geth species has been freed from Reaper control,Legion Long before this. Also the words willing and wanting mean two different things. At some point the Geth agreed to join the the Reapers as enslaved tools of the Reapers who are harvesting the Galaxy.
"The synthetics allowed themselves to be controlled by Reaper code in order to become more effective fighters, believing the cost of their free will an acceptable price to avoid extinction." From Wiki

The video was linked for the "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way." When replying to fabricated speculation one may need the use of speculation. I also provide facts.

Also here is the ME Wiki link.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Mass_Effect_Wiki

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 05:55 .

[robertthebard]

Khelish wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

On a separate, but related note, I could not find the codex entries for the Geth War/Morning War.  Can somebody link me someplace on the web?

I was actually wrong. "Billions" is not in the codex.

It is in one of the books.

Mass Effect: Revelation. Death toll for the quarians was in the billions:

"The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."

This does not conflict with any information in-game. Spoken from the writer himself. Deinon has posted this before.

Edit: Again, simple math. Few million survivors makes less than one percent survival rate. Billions died.

I can live with that.  It doesn't contradict anything we're given in game.

[robertthebard]

Rip504 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

It was stated that Legion has established a cease fire and is attempting peace in this moment.

I agree that Legion is trying to "upgrade" it's people. Though Legion can not do this if they are defenseless and dead. Establishing the code ensures survival.

6:53 Legion is informing Shepard of the upload. They will die if Legion does not upload the code. I do not understand how Legion stating "do we deserve death" is proof that it was not intending to destroy the Quarians to survive once the upload is completed. As w/o the Interrupt this is what happens. The way to prevent the Geth's death,is to allow Legion to upload the code. Wanting to defend their people and survive is lore as well for the Geth.

The Geth willingly became enslaved tools of the Reapers. The Geth are fully aware of the Reaper's intent. The Geth intent is to what? Defend themselves against the Quarians by becoming enslaved tools of the species killing all civilized life? They knew what would be asked of them for a Reaper/Geth alliance. They agreed and joined the Reapers to help harvest this cycle. An Alliance,both parties agreed to help the other with their situations. Yes the Quarians attacked,yes the Geth did it in defense. Yet they were aware of what they were being asked to do,and agreed.

Lol 7:15 the entire Geth species has been freed from Reaper control,Legion Long before this. Also the words willing and wanting mean two different things. At some point the Geth agreed to join the Harvest.

The video was linked for the "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way." When replying to fabricated speculation one may need the use of speculation. I also provide facts.

I see, you wanted to cherry pick one line out of the video, in hope that nobody would watch it?  The problem with your "facts" is that they weren't supported by the video you provided.  Even in this reply, you're wrong.  At 7:15, they are still discussing the upgrade.  This is where Legion tells Tali and or Shepard that they will have free will, and be alive.  Of course, I typed that text into the reply that you blanked out.

[Rip504]

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 06:10 .

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...
.

Yea. I posted a link to a video hoping nobody would watch... Seriously?

Once the Reaper has been killed,so has the Reaper control signal. Sorry. But the rest you agree with?

[robertthebard]

What I agree with from what I recall of your post, is that, w/out an interrupt, the Geth will wipe out the Quarians. I can speculate that, with no outside interference, Shepard coming in at the 11th hour, then probably the Geth would have ended up joining the Reapers just as the Heretics did in ME 1. What I don't agree with is that this was their intent, and I disagree with it because it's not presented anywhere in game. I like my facts to be facts. I like to be able to go to youtube and see, Hey, I missed that dialog option because I always Renegade it, or always Paragon it, not likely, since I've done both a few times, but to be able to see it, instead of somebody telling me; well, it's this way because...

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Well, the fact that Legion flat-out says the geth panicked and failed to consider any other possibilities because survival took priority was kind of a big hint.

Also, Legion himself states that he regreats what the geth did, and that he himself seems to wish that the geth had refused. When Shepard states the geth are "better then this," Legion says "...No. Based on emperical evidence ..... they are not." Legion shows nothing but remorse for the geth's decision to side with the Reapers.

Leigon does not say that.

www.youtube.com/watch around 9:15 Legion states that their intelligence dimmed and the attack narrowed the Geth perspective. So self preservation was top priority. It does prove me wrong in my speculation that they must have voted. They pretty much couldn't based on Leigon's account of their weakened intelligence. It proves me wrong and I'll admit it but your account of that conversation seems to be bias.

www.youtube.com/watch Start of the video. Leigon and Shepard are talking about Leigon carrying reaper upgrades, thus he can hack into any Geth systems. Leigon is "ashamed" because he did not tell Shepard. That conversation has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the reapers.

That's my POINT. They didn't consider any other options because survuval took priority, and they grabbed whatever was in front of them. You proved me right.

Too far ahead. When discussing how the geth became allied with the Reapers, Shepard asks if the geth really believe survival is worth the loss of their free will, to which Legion says "that is evidently an acceptible trade," showing that it doesn't seem to agree with it. As well as it's admission that the geth are not "better then this." Also, It says that it didn't tell Shepard that it had the codes because it was a "personal" matter. That seems to suggest shame at taking the codes rather then shame at lying about them.

I already said I proved you right. But I may have been wrong in saying that.

 I had skipped over the first part of the vid to the conversation onboard the Normandy and passed this little gem.  www.youtube.com/watch around 2:10 Leigon mentions that destorying the Heretics made the decision to ally with the reapers difficult. Seems they really did think about it. I don't know if it was in a vote as I thought but my original speculation is back on that they did think about it before acting.

In the video EDI also mentions a good point that the Geth were ostracized by all organic races, they had no other choice but to die. Tali agrees as she has no counter argument to that statement and proceeds to say that she begged them(Quarians) to negoiate rather than attack. 

As for the second paragraph. No, you specifically mentioned dialouge that had nothing at all to do with the geth joining the reapers. Different conversation, different time, different place, and with a different topic. You just tried to make it sound like the conversation was about the geth joining the reapers.

And I can't find anything about Leigon being ashamed or saying that siding with them was wrong as you point out. Around 9:26 Shepard says "Even if the reapers cost the geth free will" Leigon replies: "That is evidently an acceptable trade."  Meaning: That is clearly or obviously an acceptable trade. The only side who admits that their people's actions were wrong, is Tali referring to the Quarians attacking the Geth.

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...

Quote me saying it was their intent. Again willing. They willingly joined the Reapers. That is a fact.

[milkytoast]

From the way this thread has progressed the only acceptable option is saving both. I know the thread is when Both is off the table, but Both is still the only acceptable option. Tali and the Quarians do not deserve to die due to the actions of a stubborn admiral. Legion and the Geth do not deserve to die because of when backed into a corner the Geth made a desperate and terrible call.

"Nobody else dies today"

[tevix]

@Hazegurl

--Quoted points 1,2 & 3 are now moot so I'll just skip those.

--America has changed, yes. However my analogy is that in order for YOUR analogy to work it would have to be ONE individual in COMPLETE control of 100% of the american populace. This person would think "attack" and we would all do it without question or hestiation. That's not how works. Control shepard does not join the reapers, he repurposes them. He uses what he sees as a tool to preserve peace. How that happens exactly is head-canon.

--This is becoming another remy situation. The geth take part in the complete annihilation of all advanced races in the galaxy, organic AND synthetic.

Not counting low EMS, none of the options at the end have that result. The geth's actions are not to preserve peace, they are to preserve themselves, at the expense of everyone else.

NONE of the options at the end have that outcome. None.

You are trying to compare an act to end a war and preserve peace for as many as possible to an act that will only continue war and preserve survival for only themselves. The geth's choice to become weapons in galactic anniilation clearly say that they deem their survival more important than all other races in the galaxy. Shepard's choice is to END galactic annihlation. How can you honestly compare those two?

It's like trying to say a police officer using a gun to shoot a criminal who used a gun to kill an innocent is hypocrisy because....since the criminal is bad for using the gun so is the police officer..?

I don't know, but that's the logic you've presented.

Frankly, part of the problem is that you keep trying to seperate the value of organic vs. synthetic life. I deem them equal. I don't see destroy as an act of prejudice racism. I see it as an act to rid the galaxy of any potential threat from the reapers once and for all. It is dreadfully unfortunate that it's cost is the existance of an entire species.

I...honestly don't know what else to say. If you can't distinguish between selfish acts of genocide and acts of peace then...there's simply no point in debating further with you.

[movieguyabw]

Geth. I like Legion (slightly) more than Tali. That is the only reason. *shrug*

[robertthebard]

Hazegurl wrote...

I already said I proved you right. But I may have been wrong in saying that.

 I had skipped over the first part of the vid to the conversation onboard the Normandy and passed this little gem.  www.youtube.com/watch around 2:10 Leigon mentions that destorying the Heretics made the decision to ally with the reapers difficult. Seems they really did think about it. I don't know if it was in a vote as I thought but my original speculation is back on that they did think about it before acting.

In the video EDI also mentions a good point that the Geth were ostracized by all organic races, they had no other choice but to die. Tali agrees as she has no counter argument to that statement and proceeds to say that she begged them(Quarians) to negoiate rather than attack. 

As for the second paragraph. No, you specifically mentioned dialouge that had nothing at all to do with the geth joining the reapers. Different conversation, different time, different place, and with a different topic. You just tried to make it sound like the conversation was about the geth joining the reapers.

And I can't find anything about Leigon being ashamed or saying that siding with them was wrong as you point out. Around 9:26 Shepard says "Even if the reapers cost the geth free will" Leigon replies: "That is evidently an acceptable trade."  Meaning: That is clearly or obviously an acceptable trade. The only side who admits that their people's actions were wrong, is Tali referring to the Quarians attacking the Geth.

I don't have the link, but Legion doesn't say it's ashamed, Shepard states "You were ashamed".  I get the convo every time in the Shuttle on the way to Reaper Base, I believe.

[robertthebard]

Rip504 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Quote me saying it was their intent. Again willing. They willingly joined the Reapers. That is a fact.

Willingly?  Yes.  So now, I guess the question remains; if the Quarians hadn't attacked, would they have joined the Reapers?  You state vapidly in this post http://social.biowar...66/106#16416820 that they want to kill organics.  So, the natural inference from actually reading your posts is that they intend to join the Reapers to join the harvest.  Why else, with no provocation, would they join the Reapers?  Especially If you wiped the Heretics in ME 2?

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...

Lol miss the context much? "Well using that logic" Not my logic. It was also stated in the form of a question. I do not feel as if the Geth hate and want to kill all organics.   I stated directly to you,"Yes the Quarians attacked,yes the Geth did it in defense" Try Harder.



Are you intentionally misquoting and twisting my words?  Yet you were still unable to quote me saying it was their intent. I do not feel like getting into another discussion with someone that is going to use fabricated material,twisted words,and misquoted comments. Goodnight.

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 06:38 .

[robertthebard]

Rip504 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

Lol miss the context much? "Well using that logic" Not my logic. It was also stated in the form of a question. I do not feel as if the Geth hate and want to kill all organics.   I stated directly to you,"Yes the Quarians attacked,yes the Geth did it in defense" Try Harder.



Are you intentionally misquoting and twisting my words?  Yet you were still unable to quote me saying it was their intent. I do not feel like getting into another discussion with someone that is going to use fabricated material,twisted words,and misquoted comments. Goodnight.

Yes, I fabricated the lines that I took out of the video that you provided to disprove what you claimed it said.  You are 100% correct.  So sorry your video disputed your position more than supported it, I'll try to not watch any videos you post in the future.  I don't want to be accused of fabricating any more information when I pull it directly from your sources.

Edit:  Reading your posts reminds me of a joke:

So this blonde goes to the hairdressers to get her hair done up for a big date.  She tells the beautician, what ever you do, don't take off these headphones.

Well, the beautician is fixing to wash her hair, and removes the headphones, and the girl dies.  She calls an ambulance, and when they get there she explains what she did, and what happened.  The EMS tech picks up the headphones and puts them to his ear, and all it is a recording saying "Breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out".

Modifié par robertthebard, 29 mars 2013 - 06:47 .

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...


Yes, I fabricated the lines that I took out of the video that you provided to disprove what you claimed it said.  You are 100% correct.  So sorry your video disputed your position more than supported it, I'll try to not watch any videos you post in the future.  I don't want to be accused of fabricating any more information when I pull it directly from your sources.

:lol: Seriously? You actually have to disprove something first. What did I say the video said? "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way" Guess what? It does indeed state that. Your last four post have been trying to twist my words,and fabricate the meaning.

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Rip504 wrote...

 "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way" 

Geth also have emotions, like Regret, that line prooves it.

[robertthebard]

Rip504 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Yes, I fabricated the lines that I took out of the video that you provided to disprove what you claimed it said.  You are 100% correct.  So sorry your video disputed your position more than supported it, I'll try to not watch any videos you post in the future.  I don't want to be accused of fabricating any more information when I pull it directly from your sources.

:lol: Seriously? You actually have to disprove something first. What did I say the video said? "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way" Guess what? It does indeed state that. Your last four post have been trying to twist my words,and fabricate the meaning.

*smiles, nods, and backs away slowly* 

PS, put your headphones back on.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

1.) So NO you can not provide the evidence? Figured. The Quarians want to retake their homeworld from what
they consider to be a completely hostile race. Also lmao. You prove the Geth kill innocents with a statement such as this. "If you are not actively trying to kill someone then they won't try and kill you." I guess the Geth had to be actively trying to kill someone,for someone to try and kill them.

2.)The Geth kill completely harmless organics and allow for no avenue of peace,but yet it is justified and they are innocent and peaceful creatures.. At least Gerrel shot ships during a war.  What? The Geth "monitor" organics. They knew these ships were simply curious and peaceful,still killed harmless, innocent, and defenseless organics and cut all ties.  Even attempts at peace,but not communication with the Reapers.

So yea? The Geth hate and must want to kill all Organics based off of a few events.

1.  The evidence is the game.  Once again, only one side fires on defenseless members of the enemy when told not to by an Admiral.  Only one side has to be forced to consider peace.  Furthermore, one of the main reasons they do accept peace is because they are told they will die otherwise due to the RC.  They don't accept peace because they are noble and pure.  They accept it because they will die if they don't.

2.  Once the Quarians stop trying to kill them peace is achieved.  How is that no avenue for peace?  Further, they have been cleaning up the toxins left from the MW in the event their creators return. 

3.  The bold is head cannon.  Yes the Geth monitor organics but no there is nothing in the game or the novel to suggest they knew the mission of these ships.  Further, I have yet to see a ship not armed so it is likely these ships entered Geth space armed.  If these events occurred then as I said 30 pages ago, I blame the Geth for shooting down the first ship.   After that, message delivered.  It is absurd to continue to send ships into the Veil after the first ship was shot down.  

[Khelish]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

 "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way" 

Geth also have emotions, like Regret, that line prooves it.

"Fear is an emotional response reserved for organics." - Geth VI

Legion on the other hand, has the Reaper code, and is able to understand emotion more because he is more "evolved".

The rest of the Geth in the Rannoch arc, have no such emotions. When Legion says "we", he is referring to the programs inside his platform, not all the other Geth.

[Vigilant111]

Khelish wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

 "we regret the death of the creators,but we see no other way" 

Geth also have emotions, like Regret, that line prooves it.

"Fear is an emotional response reserved for organics." - Geth VI

Legion on the other hand, has the Reaper code, and is able to understand emotion more because he is more "evolved".

The rest of the Geth in the Rannoch arc, have no such emotions. When Legion says "we", he is referring to the programs inside his platform, not all the other Geth.

"It only takes a candle to light a fire."

Legion is that candle

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

"Fear is an emotional response reserved for organics." - Geth VI

Legion on the other hand, has the Reaper code, and is able to understand emotion more because he is more "evolved".

The rest of the Geth in the Rannoch arc, have no such emotions. When Legion says "we", he is referring to the programs inside his platform, not all the other Geth.

The Geth have emotions before they realize it is emotions.  Legion carries around Shep's N7 armor before the Reaper code.  Once Shep presses him on this he responds "No Data Avalible." 



"The creators died.  Perhaps we do it for them."  The Geth preserve the homewold for creators.  That is an emotional decision not a logical one.

"Both creators and created must complete their halves of the equation.  The Geth cannot solve for peace alone."



The Geth have emotions pre-Reaper Code.  They just don't know how to articulate those emotions because they are not emotional beings by nature.  

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 03:32 .