4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

The Geth have emotions before they realize it is emotions.  Legion carries around Shep's N7 armor before the Reaper code.  Once Shep presses him on this he responds "No Data Avalible."

"No data available..."

How does that imply emotion? Just because you don't know why you did something, doesn't mean the main factoring reason was an emotional one.

"The creators died.  Perhaps we do it for them."  The Geth preserve the homewold for creators.  That is an emotional decision not a logical one.

That is your opinion you are painting as fact.

The Geth were programmed as units of labor, they were doing what they knew how to do. What else would they do sitting in Tikkun for 300 years? - Opinion

"Both creators and created must complete their halves of the equation.  The Geth cannot solve for peace alone."

Has no relevance to emotion. Moot point.

The Geth have emotions pre-Reaper Code.  They just don't know how to articulate those emotions because they are not emotional beings by nature.

Opinion. You cannot prove or disprove the metaphysical. Go ahead and try to prove you love someone. Anything you could do, someone could fake it.

I was only pointing out to Da Don, that Geth VI states clear as day the Geth don't feel fear (emotion). Legion, clearly does feel something only after getting the code, anything prior is up to interpretation.

Remy, let me save you the trouble. I'm not going to argue the metaphysical with you. You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Whether the Geth have emotion prior to the code is up to you to decide.

[Ryzaki]

Eh Legion shows something approaching embarrassment and attachment in ME2 let alone ME3.

So yeah YMMV. I'm not seeing Legion's emotions as due to the Reaper code. The Reaper code simply allows him to see more clearly what it is.

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh Legion shows something approaching embarrassment and attachment in ME2 let alone ME3.

That is my point. "approaching" emotion. 

The Reaper code allows him to experience it fully, without the code, I don't see "hints" of emotion, as emotion.

[AlexMBrennan]

"No data available..."

How does that imply emotion? Just because you don't know why you did something, doesn't mean the main factoring reason was an emotional one.

The obvious implication is that Legion knows fully well why he made that choice but it is unwilling to share his reason.
The alternative - that Legion literally has no data is silly, just like you are not honestly going to say that you have no idea why you chose to wear a particular outfit today. There's always a (possibly extremely trivial) reason.

[Khelish]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

If I got shot, I wouldn't really put much thought into what I used to patch myself up... 

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

The rest of the Geth in the Rannoch arc, have no such emotions. When Legion says "we", he is referring to the programs inside his platform, not all the other Geth.

The bold is what you said.  I assume that is you giving an opinion since by your own admission, whether the Geth have emotion prior to the code is up to us to decide.  So I responded with my opinion not fact.  Just like you did not explicit state the bold was an opinion, I did not either.  Unless I say explicitly claim something as fact I am giving an opinion.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

That is my point. "approaching" emotion. 

The Reaper code allows him to experience it fully, without the code, I don't see "hints" of emotion, as emotion.

The Reaper Code allows him to understand his emotions fully and articulate them.  They are already there.  David Archer has emotions but he can't fully articulate them because his autism or whatever it is he has makes it difficult.  He thinks like a computer which is why he was chosen for project overlord.  He still has emotions though.

Khelish wrote...

If I got shot, I wouldn't really put much thought into what I used to patch myself up... 

Except it is a pretty sh*tty patch job and he could easily have subsequent to the initial patch job replaced it with something better.

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 04:09 .

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

If I got shot, I wouldn't really put much thought into what I used to patch myself up... 

Except it is a pretty sh*tty patch job and he could easily have subsequent to the initial patch job replaced it with something better.

Considering he made it through many worlds without needing a repair to keep his platform running, Legion used it out of convenience.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Considering he made it through many worlds without needing a repair to keep his platform running, Legion used it out of convenience.

Then why couldn't he tell Shepard that?  He answers "No Data Available."  There would be no reason for him to respond like that if it was merely a repair done out of convenience.  The clear implication is that the reason he choose that armor is because of something he doesn't understand.  The Geth understand repair jobs done out of convenience.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Then why couldn't he tell Shepard that?  He answers "No Data Available."  There would be no reason for him to respond like that if it was merely a repair done out of convenience.  The clear implication is that the reason he choose that armor is because of something he doesn't understand.  The Geth understand repair jobs done out of convenience.

Legion said "There was a hole."

Not his fault Shepard didn't like the first answer.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Legion said "There was a hole."

Not his fault Shepard didn't like the first answer.

All you are doing is repeating the answer to the first question ie What caused Legion to seek out a repair?  Answer he had a hole.  However the second and more relevant discussion is why did he choose Shep's armor and continues to wear it?  No Data available.

There was debris everywhere at the crash site.  Legion picks out Shep's armor and can't give a good reason why it had to be that armor.  You are struggling to do the same. 

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 04:31 .

[Redbelle]

It's armour.

Specifically designed to offer a higher profile of protection through increased dmg resistance and deflection of attack's away from vital component's. It may have been a bit worse for wear, but it is not unreasonable to assume that a piece of armour could have survived relativley unscathed and made use of by Legion. He could have used basic metals, but those would have been either less protective, or possibly heavier to load onto his frame.

I imagine he chose the armour on the sme principal of building a bike. Keep the wieght down but select components with the highest performance.

Modifié par Redbelle, 29 mars 2013 - 04:36 .

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

All you are doing is repeating the answer to the first question ie What caused Legion to seek out a repair?  Answer he had a hole.  However the second and more relevant discussion is why did he choose Shep's armor and continues to wear it?  No Data available.

There was debris everywhere at the crash site.  Legion picks out Shep's armor and can't give a good reason why it had to be that armor.  You are struggling to do the same. 

It's clear the writers want to push the fact he did it for "organic" reasons, though this is left up to interpretation in the end.

Why did he use Shep's armor? I don't know.

And neither do you, considering Legion says "No data available..."

I already said what I thought about this matter.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

It's clear the writers want to push the fact he did it for "organic" reasons, though this is left up to interpretation in the end.

Why did he use Shep's armor? I don't know.

And neither do you, considering Legion says "No data available..."

I already said what I thought about this matter.

Well just say you don't know and choose not to speculate.  That is fine.  I simply pointed out the reasons you gave ie out of convenience did not actually answer the question. 

[remydat]

Redbelle wrote...

It's armour.

Specifically designed to offer a higher profile of protection through increased dmg resistance and deflection of attack's away from vital component's. It may have been a bit worse for wear, but it is not unreasonable to assume that a piece of armour could have survived relativley unscathed and made use of by Legion. He could have used basic metals, but those would have been either less protective, or possibly heavier to load onto his frame.

I imagine he chose the armour on the sme principal of building a bike. Keep the wieght down but select components with the highest performance.

Once again, the issue here is that if that is all it was then Legion would have no reason to say "No Data Available."  Everything you just said makes complete sense from an organic or synthetic perspective so Legion would have simply explained it as you did.  When Shep questions him specifically about it being his armour, Legion doesn't give a logical and rational answer, he says no data available.  The clear implication is that whatever the reason, it is one that his logical and rational mind cannot understand.

You guys can believe what you want.  I am simply pointing out your attempts to explain this make no sense given the response Legion made.  You are attempting to explain it with a rational and logical answer when we know from the game that Legion ie a rational and logical being cannot explain it which means the answer likely is not  one based on rational and logical reasons.

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 05:00 .

[milkytoast]

I'm not sure why logical machines would not just leave Rannoch, they know the creators will come back someday for the planet. Space travel is not difficult for the Geth. They could easily live where organics will not bother them. They probably do not have the attachment to homeland like an organic would.

[Da Don Giovanni]

The Geth Prime said, "we regret the death of the creators"

That is an emotion that was previously reserved for organics but now possible for synthetics to experience due to A) Legions sacrifice and the decision on Shepards part to allow them the oppurtunity.

Sent from Android for Galaxy SIII

[Auintus]

remydat wrote...

Once again, the issue here is that if that is all it was then Legion would have no reason to say "No Data Available."  Everything you just said makes complete sense from an organic or synthetic perspective so Legion would have simply explained it as you did.  When Shep questions him specifically about it being his armour, Legion doesn't give a logical and rational answer, he says no data available.  The clear implication is that whatever the reason, it is one that his logical and rational mind cannot understand.

You guys can believe what you want.  I am simply pointing out your attempts to explain this make no sense given the response Legion made.  You are attempting to explain it with a rational and logical answer when we know from the game that Legion ie a rational and logical being cannot explain it which means the answer likely is not  one based on rational and logical reasons.

Shepard specifically points out that Legion could have made the repair earlier, with a different material. The lack of a logical, replicable train of thought suggests an organic level of existence, even before the Reaper upgrades.

[remydat]

milkytoast wrote...

I'm not sure why logical machines would not just leave Rannoch, they know the creators will come back someday for the planet. Space travel is not difficult for the Geth. They could easily live where organics will not bother them. They probably do not have the attachment to homeland like an organic would.

"The creators died.  Perhaps we do it for them."  The Geth preserve the homewold for the creators.  They are cleaning up the toxins that they can survive in so that the creators can one day return.  The Geth never wanted war with the Quarians and the evidence seems to suggest, they are waiting for a time when they believe the Quarians are ready for peace.  They have no problem killing them until that time presents itself.

[remydat]

Auintus wrote...

Shepard specifically points out that Legion could have made the repair earlier, with a different material. The lack of a logical, replicable train of thought suggests an organic level of existence, even before the Reaper upgrades.

Exactly.  We all know that is what the writers were going for there but people just want to deny it because it is an inconvenient truth for their perspective.

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh Legion shows something approaching embarrassment and attachment in ME2 let alone ME3.

That is my point. "approaching" emotion. 

The Reaper code allows him to experience it fully, without the code, I don't see "hints" of emotion, as emotion.

People already pointed out there's no logical reason for Legion to have patched his hole with Shep's armor. That's attachment. Edit: Ah I remembered wrong I got embarassment from the weird pause.

There's no logical reason for that. It's an emotional response. Might not be the most BLUNT of emotional responses but it's there. he could've fixed his whole with something that actually covered the whole mess for one thing. But he doesn't.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 mars 2013 - 06:36 .

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Exactly.  We all know that is what the writers were going for there but people just want to deny it because it is an inconvenient truth for their perspective.

Funny... you do the same exact same thing in regards to the book entry in Revelations. 

You cannot prove your emotions or "feelings", in organics or synthetics. What you see as emotion in Legion (prior to Reaper code), I see as random code, an anomaly. It doesn't have a logical reason, and it is not emotion. IMO.

[robertthebard]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

Exactly.  We all know that is what the writers were going for there but people just want to deny it because it is an inconvenient truth for their perspective.

Funny... you do the same exact same thing in regards to the book entry in Revelations. 

You cannot prove your emotions or "feelings", in organics or synthetics. What you see as emotion in Legion (prior to Reaper code), I see as random code, an anomaly. It doesn't have a logical reason, and it is not emotion. IMO.

I deny a lot of the book entries in Revelations, when they contradict what we're given/told in game.  I have also explained why.  It's not a difficult concept.  Any "lore" given in an outside media that contradicts in game lore is in error.  However, Legion's lack of a logical reason to use Shepard's armor to patch the hole does create a hint of something more than just "There was a hole".  This scenario is played out in ME 2.  There is no Reaper code to interfere with the "normal" processes of the software that makes up Legion, and yet, it's response is "No data available"?  In my first play through, I was left feeling that Legion had a case of Hero Worship.  The problem is, this means that there is a capacity to feel something.  A capacity to feel something implies emotion.

Now, before I'm accused of even more fabrication, evidently somebody learned a new word, and what it means, or at least one meaning, let's look also ME 1.  Does an AI have a God?  The Geth refer to the Quarians as the Creators, but that is a very literal application of the word, since the Quarians are indeed the Creators.  But on Feros, you find a shrine built by the Geth.  Since it's not a cutscene, I doubt that there's a video on youtube, but, when you first enter the compound, you'll come around a corner, and there are two Geth kneeling there.  What Is that?  Is it possible that this is the first step to emotions?  Before we go all haywire on AI's being unable to possess them, I have one acronym for you:  EDI.  I would also like to point out lines from Shepard's speech in the comic that precedes ME 2, where Shepard talks about being able to feel the malice that Sovereign has for organics.  Malice is also an emotion.  I assure you, I didn't fabricate the dictionary.

During Legion's loyalty mission, it can exhibit surprise and confusion that the Heretics are spying on the consensus.  This would point to an ability to feel things.  Again, I'm not fabricating the dictionary.  If the definitions don't fit somebody's preconceived notions about the Geth, I don't know what to tell you.  If this applies, you can feel free to pretend you don't speak English, or bury your head in the sand.  There's always the "stick your fingers in your ears going la la la la la" approach as well.  However, all of these examples are given in game.  I don't have to rely on outside sources to try to make a case.  One can also argue that a sense of preservation is an emotional response, making the Geth turning to the Reapers an emotional response to possible extinction.

[tevix]

@Robert

I'm curious, actually, about what parts of the revelations novel you feel contradict with in-game lore.

You keep saying that, but you never really point out which parts of the novel you feel are not canon, and why. Please, do tell.

[robertthebard]

tevix wrote...

@Robert

I'm curious, actually, about what parts of the revelations novel you feel contradict with in-game lore.

You keep saying that, but you never really point out which parts of the novel you feel are not canon, and why. Please, do tell.

I have responded to specific instances, both ways actually.  Such as the number of Quarians that died in the MW, and on the other side, where a reference was made to the Council trying to make peace(?) with the Geth, I think...

I find the former to be acceptable because it does not contradict anything we are shown in any of the games, and in fact, adds an explanation for how few Quarians there are.  The latter because while in the Consensus, you get a shot of Legion and Shepard shaking hands and the explanation is that it was the first time since the MW that organics had attempted to work peacefully with the Geth.  This is canon, anything that contradicts that from a novel, comic etc is in error.

ETA:  Also, there is Tali telling us that the Council refused to move against the Geth right after the war.  Since I don't own the novels, and as I pointed out, even if I did, things presented in game trump things from outside media.  There are no in game references to the death toll on Rannoch that I could find.  Thus, the novel's count is acceptable to me, even logical, all things considered.  Anything that contradicts the in game lore is not.

Modifié par robertthebard, 29 mars 2013 - 08:07 .