4712 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Robert

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify that, but I disagree on a couple things.

Legion says that you are the first organic to openly **cooperate** with the geth since the end of the MW. That does not eliminate the possibility of them having killed unarmed diplomatic ships before that point.

It is truth that shepard is the first to cooperate with them, which applies an alliance. That does not account for attempts at peaceful communication. There is no contradiction of lore, only clarification.

As for the council, there is also no contradiction. Between the game and the novel you learn that the council did not move against the geth at any time. They even massed a fleet after the MW on the geth border in anticipation of an attack. None ever came, so they gradually withdrew their forces. I'm not sure where the contradiction is.

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...


Legion is trying to improve his people by uploading the code

so I don't see how you figure the Geth joined the Reapers to wipe out all organics/join the harvest.  This is false, and contradicts what we are given in game.

I see, you wanted to cherry pick one line out of the video, in hope that nobody would watch it?

 Even in this reply, you're wrong.  At 7:15, they are still discussing
the upgrade.  This is where Legion tells Tali and or Shepard that they
will have free will, and be alive.

I can speculate that, with no outside interference, Shepard coming
in at the 11th hour, then probably the Geth would have ended up joining
the Reapers just as the Heretics did in ME 1.

 What I don't agree with is that this was their intent,

Willingly?  Yes.  So now, I guess the question remains; if the Quarians
hadn't attacked, would they have joined the Reapers?  You state vapidly 
that they want to kill organics.

I never stated Legion is not trying to upgrade it's people. Your Fabrication.
The Geth did not willingly join the Reapers? Your Fabrication.
"I see, you wanted to cherry pick one line out of the video, in hope that nobody would watch it?" Your Fabrication.
7:15 I said the Geth were free from Reaper control,you disagreed. Your fabrication.
Your speculation is not mine. It is Your Fabrication.
I never stated it was their Intent. Your Fabrication.

"When replying to fabricated speculation one may need the use of speculation. I also provide facts." Your stating I am claiming my every word is Facts. Your Fabrication

I have never stated they want to kill all Organics. Your Fabrication. I stated and can prove the Geth have killed organics.
As well as you misquoting that comment,one it was not using my logic,two it was in the form of a question. Your twisting of my words for your meaning is a fabrication of what is being stated.

As well you fabricated the reason I state the Geth join the Reapers,even after I stated directly to you,"Yes the Quarians attacked,yes the Geth did it in defense" Also after agreeing that I am stating the Geth willingly joined the Reapers,yet you still fabricate my reasons when they are being directly stated.

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 08:29 .

[robertthebard]

Rip504 wrote...

robertthebard wrote...


Legion is trying to improve his people by uploading the code

so I don't see how you figure the Geth joined the Reapers to wipe out all organics/join the harvest.  This is false, and contradicts what we are given in game.

I see, you wanted to cherry pick one line out of the video, in hope that nobody would watch it?

 Even in this reply, you're wrong.  At 7:15, they are still discussing
the upgrade.  This is where Legion tells Tali and or Shepard that they
will have free will, and be alive.

I can speculate that, with no outside interference, Shepard coming
in at the 11th hour, then probably the Geth would have ended up joining
the Reapers just as the Heretics did in ME 1.

 What I don't agree with is that this was their intent,

Willingly?  Yes.  So now, I guess the question remains; if the Quarians
hadn't attacked, would they have joined the Reapers?  You state vapidly 
that they want to kill organics.

I never stated Legion is not trying to upgrade it's people. Your Fabrication.
The Geth did not willingly join the Reapers? Your Fabrication.
"I see, you wanted to cherry pick one line out of the video, in hope that nobody would watch it?" Your Fabrication.
7:15 I said the Geth were free from Reaper control,you disagreed. Your fabrication.
Your speculation is not mine. It is Your Fabrication.
I never stated it was their Intent. Your Fabrication.

"When replying to fabricated speculation one may need the use of speculation. I also provide facts." Your stating I am claiming my every word is Facts. Your Fabrication

I have never stated they want to kill all Organics. Your Fabrication. I stated and can prove the Geth have killed organics.
As well as you misquoting that comment,one it was not using my logic,two it was in the form of a question. Your twisting of my words for your meaning is a fabrication of what is being stated.

As well you fabricated the reason I state the Geth join the Reapers,even after I stated directly to you,"Yes the Quarians attacked,yes the Geth did it in defense" Also after agreeing that I am stating the Geth willingly joined the Reapers,yet you still fabricate my reasons when they are being directly stated.

After your PM, you can refrain to attempting to reply to me.

Your a lame bad joke. 60 year old corny joke is suppose to be funny,after you ran your mouth and fell flat on your face?
lmao

You attacked,I disproved your random fabrications and you felt... and needed to attempt some lame 60 year old joke. You put yourself in your place. I am just lmao @ you.

Your lameness does not belong in the thread,hence the pm.

Shall I forward a copy to the mods and maybe EA to make sure you get the point?

[Rip504]

robertthebard wrote...

Aww How sweet. I proved you are using fabrications and now your feelings are hurt?

Modifié par Rip504, 29 mars 2013 - 08:43 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Khelish wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

If I got shot, I wouldn't really put much thought into what I used to patch myself up... 

Then your reason is "It was the first thing I saw"

[robertthebard]

tevix wrote...

@Robert

I appreciate you taking the time to clarify that, but I disagree on a couple things.

Legion says that you are the first organic to openly **cooperate** with the geth since the end of the MW. That does not eliminate the possibility of them having killed unarmed diplomatic ships before that point.

It is truth that shepard is the first to cooperate with them, which applies an alliance. That does not account for attempts at peaceful communication. There is no contradiction of lore, only clarification.

As for the council, there is also no contradiction. Between the game and the novel you learn that the council did not move against the geth at any time. They even massed a fleet after the MW on the geth border in anticipation of an attack. None ever came, so they gradually withdrew their forces. I'm not sure where the contradiction is.

However, I have nothing in game that points to them doing so, and the fleet that's camping the Veil to make that unlikely.  Not impossible, there is the ship we find in ME 1 that's full of husks that wound up in the Veil, but we do not know that it wasn't the Heretics, or Saren himself that did it.  It is, after all, full of Dragon's Teeth, and we know those to be Reaper tech, not Geth.  So while I won't dismiss the possibility, I won't accept it as solid evidence of Geth malicious intent either.  A random reference in game, even one that I may have missed, would change my view, but I have yet to find any.

What we do have in game is that, prior to the events of ME 1, the Geth had not ventured out of Geth space.  Again, anything in the novels that contradicts this, since it is given in game, is in error.  The game trumps external media.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

Exactly.  We all know that is what the writers were going for there but people just want to deny it because it is an inconvenient truth for their perspective.

Funny... you do the same exact same thing in regards to the book entry in Revelations. 

You cannot prove your emotions or "feelings", in organics or synthetics. What you see as emotion in Legion (prior to Reaper code), I see as random code, an anomaly. It doesn't have a logical reason, and it is not emotion. IMO.

See Robert's post.  The story clearly changed to be more favorable to the Geth.  An obscure reference in a book that is never mentioned in game ever again doesn't carry the same weight as something said in game.  Stuff gets retconned all the time when writers change.

Random code that just popped up out of nowhere.  Ok, cool.  Like I said, you are free to believe that.  The issue is when you tried to come up with a logical reason for something that you now admit is not logical.  Could have just said that from the beginning.

[remydat]

Can people clarify where they see in the below that these alleged vessels were UNARMED. The Normandy can carry out a diplomatic mission and it is armed to the teeth. The only ships I know of in the MEU that were not armed were the Quarians liveships and that is because they were wholly civilian and they had a whole flotilla protecting them.

So where do people get this unarmed idea? The below doesn't even mention that Quarians attacked first.  This was before ME2 and ME3 so leaving that out bascially makes the Geth look like the aggressors especially as this was in the aftermath of ME1 where the Geth were the villains.  In fact, I asked this question like 60 pages ago and people have yet to respond.  Is there any mention in this book that the Quarians attacked the Geth.  If not then logically I think one of 2 things.  This was written before the decision was made to make the Geth more sympathetic and thus is likely not cannon anymore which is why it is never brought up in a the game at any point or it was told from an organic and biased perspective since it leaves out anything that could be construed to tell the Geth side of the story.  This reads like organic propanganda on why synthetics are evil.

So to Robert's point which is one I have said repeatedly, holding this passage up as some smoking gun is a bit silly.  Stories change all the time especially when writers change and just like the Dark Energy plot was dropped without openly saying so in the game, the Geth as war mongers seemed to fall by the wayside when ME2 and ME3 came out.

From Mass Effect: Revelation (Karpyshyn, 2007), Chapter Eight:

Attempting to develop artificial intelligence was one of the few things specifically banned in the Citadel Conventions. Developing purely synthetic life, whether cloned or manufactured, was considered a crime against the entire galaxy.

Experts from nearly every species predicted that true artificial intelligence - such as a synthetic neural network with the ability to absorb and critically analyze knowledge - would grow exponentially the instant it learned to learn. It would teach itself; quickly surpassing the capabilities of its organic creators and growing beyond their control. Every single species in the galaxy relied on computers that were linked into the vast data network of the extranet for transport, trade, defense, and basic survival. If a rogue AI program was somehow able to access and influence those data networks, the results would be catastrophic.

Conventional theory held that the doomsday scenario wasn't merely possible, it was unavoidable. According to the Council, the emergence of an artificial intelligence was the single greatest threat to organic life in the galaxy. And there was evidence to support their position.

Three hundred years ago, long before humanity appeared on the galactic scene, the quarian species had created a race of synthetic servants to serve as an expandable and expendable labor source. The geth, as they were called, were not true AIs: their neural networks were developed in a way that was highly restrictive and self-limiting. Despite this precaution, the geth eventually turned on their quarian masters, validating all the dire warnings and predictions.

The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored reaches behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.

However, the lesson of the quarians had not been forgotten. They had lost everything to the synthetic creatures they created... and on top of this, the geth were still less advanced than a true AI.

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 09:30 .

[Khelish]

@ Remy. Edit: To your post two above this one.

"The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."

This contradicts nothing presented in-game. If you choose to ignore evidence that goes against your world view... Heh, not my problem. Have fun.

@Alex. Just the fact Legion made it through how many worlds without requiring a repair, just means he did not deem it necessary at the time. I already discussed this, I'm not going over it again.

@Robert. As much as I would love to argue semantics with you regarding emotion, it is pointless.

When Legion shows "Surprise" or "Confusion", he is using it just like EDI.

EDI says she "Likes it" as shorthand. I believe the Geth/Legion do the same.

The only reason I replied to Da Don, was to point out what the Geth VI says. "Fear is an emotional response reserved for organics."

It is my opinion that prior to the Reaper code, the Geth had very little, or no emotion at all. Why does this even matter? Whether I believe they have emotion or not is meaningless. I judge people (Synthetic and Organic) by their actions, not on what they are made of or if they feel emotion.

Modifié par Khelish, 29 mars 2013 - 09:39 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

@ Remy. Edit: To your post two above this one.

"The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile."

This contradicts nothing presented in-game. If you choose to ignore evidence that goes against your world view... Heh, not my problem. Have fun.

@Alex. Just the fact Legion made it through how many worlds without requiring a repair, just means he did not deem it necessary at the time. I already discussed this, I'm not going over it again.

@Robert. As much as I would love to argue semantics with you regarding emotion, it is pointless.

When Legion shows "Surprise" or "Confusion", he is using it just like EDI.

EDI says she "Likes it" as shorthand. I believe the Geth/Legion do the same.

The only reason I replied to Da Don, was to point out what the Geth VI says. "Fear is an emotional response reserved for organics."

It is my opinion that prior to the Reaper code, the Geth had very little, or no emotion at all. Why does this even matter? Whether I believe they have emotion or not is meaningless. I judge people (Synthetic and Organic) by their actions, not on what they are made of or if they feel emotion.

I never disputed 2 billion died.  I think everyone agrees a **** load of Quarians died.  My comment about the story changing is with respect to the whole they shot at diplomatic ships.  No one in the game mentions this at all and statements by Legion suggest the Geth have not made contact with organics in years.  
    
It matters because you supported you opinion with information that you yourself later contradicted.  You initially tried to argue that it was done out of convenience.  That makes no sense in the story as people have pointed out repeatedly he could have used other materials and if it was done out of convenience then Legion would have said so instead of saying no data available.

You are completely entitled to your opinion.  However, we are entitled to point out when the opinion you presented is not consistent with the story.  All you had to say from the beginning is you think it is illogical but not necessarily indicative of emotion instead of trying to give a logical answer to what we all agree was an illogical action/statement made by Legion.

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 09:53 .

[remydat]

Oh and EDi clearly has emotions.  She doesn't say she likes Joker because it is shorthand, lol.  I know that is not the example you were thinking about but using a synthetic who clearly has emotions as proof for the lack of emotion is problematic.

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 09:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh Legion shows something approaching embarrassment and attachment in ME2 let alone ME3.

That is my point. "approaching" emotion. 

The Reaper code allows him to experience it fully, without the code, I don't see "hints" of emotion, as emotion.

And that's your perogative. But arguing "he has no emotions" is...meh. The game shows Legion expressing emotions before Reaper upgrades (Legion's buying off the game for the charity for one thing, his trolling for another) whether you like it or not.

My usage of approaching wasn't what I wanted to say. Its more like a smidge than approaching. My fault.

And if you're seriously arguing EDI doesn't have emotions...wat. All I have to say to that is someone needs to replay ME2. EDI flat out expresses concern, loyalty and amusement (she trolls Joker constantly for pete's sake). She claims her trolling Joker is for "improvement" of him but then she goes on to troll Shep (and trolling Shep has no point). She expresses exasperation "Probing Uranus." Lmao and just...I don't see how you're saying EDI has no emotions. Now whether she admits it is one thing. But her having them is another.

And yes there's a "logical" reason for her having said emotions but that kind of goes running out the window when she sides with Shep & Co instead of her creator.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 mars 2013 - 10:17 .

[tevix]

@Robert

You keep ranting about how the novel violates in game lore, but I still fail to see a contradiction.

If saren sent a vessel full of husks into geth space...that doesn't qualify as a peacemaking vessel that went into geth space to make peace. No contradiction.

In an earlier post you said you will go with the quarian death count in the novel because nothing in game goes against it. No specific number is ever mentioned in game, and that means to you the novel lore is ok.

Nothing in game contadicts the statement in the novel that peacemaking vessels were attacked/destroyed the moment they entered geth space. Based on your earlier logic, since nothing in game contradicts the novel, the novel's lore is ok. No contraditcion.

There is also nothing in game to contradict the novels statement that the council massed a fleet on the geth border, then withdrew it over time when they didn't attack.

You must remember that not everything is canon for all time. For example, in ME1, the unusual strength that sovereign displays is NOT canon. Hudson came forward and said his power in cutscenes was more than they intended. It is possible to retcon something. It is even possible to retcon it without an in-game statement.

@Remy

I'm only responding to this point to give Khelish a leg up, since you seemed to have attempted to dodge his argument. I am intercepting.

You are wrong on not just one, but both parts of you argument.

1) There are plenty of freighters and decomissioned frigates in the ME series that do not have armaments. Any one of these types of vessels could have been used to attempt to make peace with the geth. And, just in case you say that's head-canon and they could easily have been armed...

2) Just because a ship has weapons is not sufficient reason to attack it. According to the novel, this is what happened. And before you attempt to argue that we don't know that those passages aren't biased and non-canon...

2A) If you talk to tali in ME1 she tells you that every person who ever tried to go into the veil to attempt to make peace was killed. No one's attempt at peace was ever accepted. And before you say that THAT is organic bias....

2B) When you ask legion about the geth's side of the story he says, and I quote "It is largely the same."

Khelish primed the explosion, I detonated.

Points go to him.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Well, the fact that Legion flat-out says the geth panicked and failed to consider any other possibilities because survival took priority was kind of a big hint.

Also, Legion himself states that he regreats what the geth did, and that he himself seems to wish that the geth had refused. When Shepard states the geth are "better then this," Legion says "...No. Based on emperical evidence ..... they are not." Legion shows nothing but remorse for the geth's decision to side with the Reapers.

Leigon does not say that.

www.youtube.com/watch around 9:15 Legion states that their intelligence dimmed and the attack narrowed the Geth perspective. So self preservation was top priority. It does prove me wrong in my speculation that they must have voted. They pretty much couldn't based on Leigon's account of their weakened intelligence. It proves me wrong and I'll admit it but your account of that conversation seems to be bias.

www.youtube.com/watch Start of the video. Leigon and Shepard are talking about Leigon carrying reaper upgrades, thus he can hack into any Geth systems. Leigon is "ashamed" because he did not tell Shepard. That conversation has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the reapers.

That's my POINT. They didn't consider any other options because survuval took priority, and they grabbed whatever was in front of them. You proved me right.

Too far ahead. When discussing how the geth became allied with the Reapers, Shepard asks if the geth really believe survival is worth the loss of their free will, to which Legion says "that is evidently an acceptible trade," showing that it doesn't seem to agree with it. As well as it's admission that the geth are not "better then this." Also, It says that it didn't tell Shepard that it had the codes because it was a "personal" matter. That seems to suggest shame at taking the codes rather then shame at lying about them.

I already said I proved you right. But I may have been wrong in saying that.

 I had skipped over the first part of the vid to the conversation onboard the Normandy and passed this little gem.  www.youtube.com/watch around 2:10 Leigon mentions that destorying the Heretics made the decision to ally with the reapers difficult. Seems they really did think about it. I don't know if it was in a vote as I thought but my original speculation is back on that they did think about it before acting.

In the video EDI also mentions a good point that the Geth were ostracized by all organic races, they had no other choice but to die. Tali agrees as she has no counter argument to that statement and proceeds to say that she begged them(Quarians) to negoiate rather than attack. 

As for the second paragraph. No, you specifically mentioned dialouge that had nothing at all to do with the geth joining the reapers. Different conversation, different time, different place, and with a different topic. You just tried to make it sound like the conversation was about the geth joining the reapers.

And I can't find anything about Leigon being ashamed or saying that siding with them was wrong as you point out. Around 9:26 Shepard says "Even if the reapers cost the geth free will" Leigon replies: "That is evidently an acceptable trade."  Meaning: That is clearly or obviously an acceptable trade. The only side who admits that their people's actions were wrong, is Tali referring to the Quarians attacking the Geth.

Before that, Tali tells you that the reason Legion broke contact with her was because the geth were having trouble "reaching consenses" and suggests (literally, she makes the suggestion) that the geth might have been in contact with the Reapers long before the quarians launched their attack, and that the geth may have been tempted by the offer long before it was a neccesity. After all, Legion says that the alliance between the geth and Reapers would not have been nessessary, but never states that the geth would have refused it. They supposedly were in debate and tempted before the quarians ever attacked.

And first off, if Legion thought it was an acceptible trade, it would have defended the reasons. It does NOT.
Did you ever play with the Geth V.I.? The one you get if Legion is either dead, or sold to Cerberus? It defends the geth's actions every step of the way.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
The Geth V.I. shows no remorse about the deal. Legion does.
Legion even directly states that the geth are not better based on "empirical evidence."

In this, while I do atmit that the V.I. also admits the geth aren't better, nstead of admitting to being ashamed, the Geth V.I. says "we were not sure you would be pragmatic enough to appreciate the tactical value of these upgrades." No remorse what-so-ever to using them, like what Legion says.
Compare them. Geth V.I. = No regret. Legion = Regret.

PS. if you look through the walkthrough list of the second link, you will see he is a perfect example of a "Paragon meta-gamer" @DenyonSlayer was talking about, who takes every single option on the top of the wheel just because it's at the top of the wheel.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 mars 2013 - 11:21 .

[SinerAthin]

Quarian.

They are easier to destroy when humanity rise to power.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I'm only responding to this point to give Khelish a leg up, since you seemed to have attempted to dodge his argument. I am intercepting.

You are wrong on not just one, but both parts of you argument.

1) There are plenty of freighters and decomissioned frigates in the ME series that do not have armaments. Any one of these types of vessels could have been used to attempt to make peace with the geth. And, just in case you say that's head-canon and they could easily have been armed...

2) Just because a ship has weapons is not sufficient reason to attack it. According to the novel, this is what happened. And before you attempt to argue that we don't know that those passages aren't biased and non-canon...

2A) If you talk to tali in ME1 she tells you that every person who ever tried to go into the veil to attempt to make peace was killed. No one's attempt at peace was ever accepted. And before you say that THAT is organic bias....

2B) When you ask legion about the geth's side of the story he says, and I quote "It is largely the same."

Khelish primed the explosion, I detonated.

Points go to him.

1.  Can you provide examples that are used on diplomatic missions?  The Normandy for example is a diplomatic vessel as it at various points hosts several leaders of the various races for peace talks.  So once again, I asked for evidence that these alleged vessels were UNARMED.

2.  They have a right to protect their terroritory just like organics have a right to protect theirs.  I would blame them if they shot down the first vessel without warning but once they make it clear they will shoot down any ships entering their terroritory then the solution is to stop doing so.  They are not obligated to talk just because you want to talk.

2A Can you provide a vid of these.  I haven't played ME1 in years and I disinclined to just take your word for it.  As I noted before, you are making this particular claim so back it up and I will consider it.

2B It is largely the same.  A sh*t load of Quarians die.  However, no Quarian in the game references these ships so you can't just apply Legion's comment to something never mentioned in the game.

I think you also missed my comment plages ago that said if this story was true and I was there at the time the Geth were shooting these ships down and had to decide at that moment that I would most likely choose to save teh Quarians.  Just like if I was there at the MW and saw kids being slaughtered I would choose to save the Quarians.

So I think you need to clarify whether you are making a meta argument (ie as an external observer) or an in-game argument ie as Shepard.   The former is problematic as it is clear to me that the story much like the Dark Energy plot changed and the latter is problematic because there is no evidence that Shepard knows about these alleged diplomatic missions as he is never told by anyone in the game about them.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Before that, Tali tells you that the reason Legion broke contact with her was because the geth were having trouble "reaching consenses" and suggests (literally, she makes the suggestion) that the geth might have been in contact with the Reapers long before the quarians launched their attack, and that the geth may have been tempted by the offer long before it was a neccesity. After all, Legion says that the alliance between the geth and Reapers would not have been nessessary, but never states that the geth would have refused it. They supposedly were in debate and tempted before the quarians ever attacked.

And first off, if Legion thought it was an acceptible trade, it would have defended the reasons. It does NOT.
Did you ever play with the Geth V.I.? The one you get if Legion is either dead, or sold to Cerberus? It defends the geth's actions every step of the way.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
The Geth V.I. shows no remorse about the deal. Legion does.
Legion even directly states that the geth are not better based on "empirical evidence."

In this, while I do atmit that the V.I. also admits the geth aren't better, nstead of admitting to being ashamed, the Geth V.I. says "we were not sure you would be pragmatic enough to appreciate the tactical value of these upgrades." No remorse what-so-ever to using them, like what Legion says.
Compare them. Geth V.I. = No regret. Legion = Regret.

PS. if you look through the walkthrough list of the second link, you will see he is a perfect example of a "Paragon meta-gamer" @DenyonSlayer was talking about, who takes every single option on the top of the wheel just because it's at the top of the wheel.

All this really proves is the Geth VI is a dick just like Gherel is a dick.  Does Gherel show remorse when he nearly kills Shep or Tali when they told him the Dreadnought was defenseless?  No.  Just because Legion is a better person than both of those douchebags doesn't really prove anything.

The simple fact is the Geth VI douchebag is not the one who fires on defenseless ships of the enemy, Gherel is.  And the Geth VI once he sees Gherel do this is basically like we will end this war.  If he chooses not to feel remorse for an enemy that is shooting at defenseless ships with the intent to wipe them out so what? Do you think Gherel is remorseful about the fact he is trying to kill defenseless Geth ships?

Modifié par remydat, 29 mars 2013 - 11:44 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Before that, Tali tells you that the reason Legion broke contact with her was because the geth were having trouble "reaching consenses" and suggests (literally, she makes the suggestion) that the geth might have been in contact with the Reapers long before the quarians launched their attack, and that the geth may have been tempted by the offer long before it was a neccesity. After all, Legion says that the alliance between the geth and Reapers would not have been nessessary, but never states that the geth would have refused it. They supposedly were in debate and tempted before the quarians ever attacked.

And first off, if Legion thought it was an acceptible trade, it would have defended the reasons. It does NOT.
Did you ever play with the Geth V.I.? The one you get if Legion is either dead, or sold to Cerberus? It defends the geth's actions every step of the way.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
The Geth V.I. shows no remorse about the deal. Legion does.
Legion even directly states that the geth are not better based on "empirical evidence."

In this, while I do atmit that the V.I. also admits the geth aren't better, nstead of admitting to being ashamed, the Geth V.I. says "we were not sure you would be pragmatic enough to appreciate the tactical value of these upgrades." No remorse what-so-ever to using them, like what Legion says.
Compare them. Geth V.I. = No regret. Legion = Regret.

PS. if you look through the walkthrough list of the second link, you will see he is a perfect example of a "Paragon meta-gamer" @DenyonSlayer was talking about, who takes every single option on the top of the wheel just because it's at the top of the wheel.

All this really proves is the Geth VI is a dick just like Gherel is a dick.  Does Gherel show remorse when he nearly kills Shep or Tali when they told him the Dreadnought was defenseless?  No.  Just because Legion is a better person than both of those douchebags doesn't really prove anything.

The simple fact is the Geth VI douchebag is not the one who fires on defenseless ships of the enemy, Gherel is.  And the Geth VI once he sees Gherel do this is basically like we will end this war.  If he chooses not to feel remorse for an enemy that is shooting at defenseless ships with the intent to wipe them out so what? Do you think Gherel is remorseful about the fact he is trying to kill defenseless Geth ships?

WRONG. Gerrel has no reason to show remorse because he doesn't know that worshiping Reapers and hating orgnaics ISN'T standard practice for the geth. The moment he DOES know that the geth don't want war, he STANDS DOWN. That alone is a proven fact that you continually ignore. And did Hackett show any remorse to blowing Sovergien away with Shepard right next to it? Or how he says that he should give Shepard a mdeal for killing 300,000 batarians to slow the Reapers?

And AGAIN, 17 million people representing Gerrel's entire race, vs two aliens, and one single quarian (who is either an Exile, or an Admiral in title alone). Three people vs genocide of an entire race isn't a hard question. Unless you make the mistake you have and let emotional responce dictate your actions and cloud judgement. You don't have time for that. You need to go off the information you have, which is that the dreadnought is the heart of the geth fleet, and could come online and rip them apart again any moment. No time to debate - you need to act NOW.

Also, the Geth V.I. NEVER says that it's doing this for the sake of organics. It says that the Reapers consuming their consensis is unacceptable. It's in this for personal revenge, not anything having to do with organic concerns.
And all the geth have EVER DONE is fuel hate for them by (a) killing billions indiscriminately, ( killing everyone that tried to negotiate with them indiscriminately, and © did nothing to fix any of it or prevent the Heretics to tear the galaxy a new one.

And AGAIN, geth are considered to hate organics. They are believed to hate them since the beginning. Gerrel believes that being allied with the Reapers doesn't have any barring on the geth hating organics. When he finds out otherwise, he STANDS DOWN.
When are you going to accept that?

[Khelish]

...

"Just like if I was there at the MW and saw kids being slaughtered I would choose to save the Quarians."

Remy, you honestly think that no children were among the casualties? Honestly? Out of the billions dead, not one child killed by Geth...?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG. Gerrel has no reason to show remorse because he doesn't know that worshiping Reapers and hating orgnaics ISN'T standard practice for the geth. The moment he DOES know that the geth don't want war, he STANDS DOWN. That alone is a proven fact that you continually ignore. And did Hackett show any remorse to blowing Sovergien away with Shepard right next to it? Or how he says that he should give Shepard a mdeal for killing 300,000 batarians to slow the Reapers?

And AGAIN, 17 million people representing Gerrel's entire race, vs two aliens, and one single quarian (who is either an Exile, or an Admiral in title alone). Three people vs genocide of an entire race isn't a hard question. Unless you make the mistake you have and let emotional responce dictate your actions and cloud judgement. You don't have time for that. You need to go off the information you have, which is that the dreadnought is the heart of the geth fleet, and could come online and rip them apart again any moment. No time to debate - you need to act NOW.

Also, the Geth V.I. NEVER says that it's doing this for the sake of organics. It says that the Reapers consuming their consensis is unacceptable. It's in this for personal revenge, not anything having to do with organic concerns.
And all the geth have EVER DONE is fuel hate for them by (a) killing billions indiscriminately, ( killing everyone that tried to negotiate with them indiscriminately, and © did nothing to fix any of it or prevent the Heretics to tear the galaxy a new one.

And AGAIN, geth are considered to hate organics. They are believed to hate them since the beginning. Gerrel believes that being allied with the Reapers doesn't have any barring on the geth hating organics. When he finds out otherwise, he STANDS DOWN.
When are you going to accept that?

What reason does the Geth VI have to show remorse? 

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Remy, you honestly think that no children were among the casualties? Honestly? Out of the billions dead, not one child killed by Geth...?

The point was Shep was not there.  He doesn't know how it all went down.  If those kids died because children die during war then that is different than if Shep was there and saw the Geth walking around putting bullets in the back of little kids heads then the Geth would die.

Do you think Iraqi or Afghan children haven't died in those wars?  Does that prove they died because American soldiers intentionally were seeking them out to kill or because war sucks? 

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG. Gerrel has no reason to show remorse because he doesn't know that worshiping Reapers and hating orgnaics ISN'T standard practice for the geth. The moment he DOES know that the geth don't want war, he STANDS DOWN. That alone is a proven fact that you continually ignore. And did Hackett show any remorse to blowing Sovergien away with Shepard right next to it? Or how he says that he should give Shepard a mdeal for killing 300,000 batarians to slow the Reapers?

And AGAIN, 17 million people representing Gerrel's entire race, vs two aliens, and one single quarian (who is either an Exile, or an Admiral in title alone). Three people vs genocide of an entire race isn't a hard question. Unless you make the mistake you have and let emotional responce dictate your actions and cloud judgement. You don't have time for that. You need to go off the information you have, which is that the dreadnought is the heart of the geth fleet, and could come online and rip them apart again any moment. No time to debate - you need to act NOW.

Also, the Geth V.I. NEVER says that it's doing this for the sake of organics. It says that the Reapers consuming their consensis is unacceptable. It's in this for personal revenge, not anything having to do with organic concerns.
And all the geth have EVER DONE is fuel hate for them by (a) killing billions indiscriminately, ( killing everyone that tried to negotiate with them indiscriminately, and © did nothing to fix any of it or prevent the Heretics to tear the galaxy a new one.

And AGAIN, geth are considered to hate organics. They are believed to hate them since the beginning. Gerrel believes that being allied with the Reapers doesn't have any barring on the geth hating organics. When he finds out otherwise, he STANDS DOWN.
When are you going to accept that?

What reason does the Geth VI have to show remorse? 

LEGION sure shows remorse.
Ask him if the geth think it's worth sacrificing free will, and Legion will say "That is evidently an acceptible trade," implying it's not the choice it would have made.
Ask him about being ashamed, and he doesn't deny it, saying that it shouldn't apply to him, but never that it doesn't apply. Also, if you go renagade on him when talking about the Reaper Code, he will admit that the geth were wrong and that in their current state, they muds be stopped.

The Geth V.I. shows none of the remorse that Legion does.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Remy, you honestly think that no children were among the casualties? Honestly? Out of the billions dead, not one child killed by Geth...?

The point was Shep was not there.  He doesn't know how it all went down.  If those kids died because children die during war then that is different than if Shep was there and saw the Geth walking around putting bullets in the back of little kids heads then the Geth would die.

Do you think Iraqi or Afghan children haven't died in those wars?  Does that prove they died because American soldiers intentionally were seeking them out to kill or because war sucks? 

Last I checked, YOU can't say that either. Again, chemical weapons. And Legion HIMSELF admits that the quarian discriptions of the Morning War are "largely the same," meaning that the majority of events described and known to the galaxy are what happened. (And DO NOT bring the geth server recordings into this, because those were BEFORE open war broke out. I repeat, those recordings were BEFORE the Morning War.)

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 12:11 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

LEGION sure shows remorse.
Ask him if the geth think it's worth sacrificing free will, and Legion will say "That is evidently an acceptible trade," implying it's not the choice it would have made.
Ask him about being ashamed, and he doesn't deny it, saying that it shouldn't apply to him, but never that it doesn't apply. Also, if you go renagade on him when talking about the Reaper Code, he will admit that the geth were wrong and that in their current state, they muds be stopped.

The Geth V.I. shows none of the remorse that Legion does.

That doesn't answer the question.  Legion shows remorse because he is a better person that Geth VI.  However, I asked you what reason should Geth VI show remorse.  If you only answer is because Legion does then I could say Gherel should show remorse because Admiral Koris does.

Point is we need to apply the logic consistently.  I don't care if you say they should or should not but trying to argue one should but the other shouldn't makes no sense to me.  Admiral Koris is to Legion what Admiral Gherel is to Geth VI.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Last I checked, YOU can't say that either. Again, chemical weapons. And Legion HIMSELF admits that the quarian discriptions of the Morning War are "largely the same," meaning that the majority of events described and known to the galaxy are what happened. (And DO NOT bring the geth server recordings into this, because those were BEFORE open war broke out. I repeat, those recordings were BEFORE the Morning War.)

Ok, show me Quarian descriptions that said the Geth walked around putting bullets in children's heads?  

Also show me where the Quarians taught the Geth Chemical Weapons are bad?  A quick extranet search pretty much reveals the Salarians used chemical warfare to kill untold billions of Krogan or are you going to tell me the Genophage is not a chemical weapon?  So where exactly are the Geth suppose to learn chemical weapons are bad when it is used by organics to save themselves from deah from other organics?

Just seems it's ok to be amoral as long as you are organic.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 12:25 .