4712 réponses à ce sujet

[tevix]

@Remy

See, this is why I don't bother providing evidence. You tell silver to find you a passage where a quarian says geth killed kids

Problem is you'd just say that it's organically baised stories because it's only from the quarian perspective.

And before you try to argue that, may I remind you that it is for that VERY REASON you are discounting the truthfulness of the revelations novel. You keep tossing it aside as non-canon because it doesn't show the geth side. It can thus be assumed you would use the same argument again.

And even if I did link to a video proving what I claim tali said, you'd say it was "irrellevant" or "organic bias" or "the geth have every reason to hate organics".

No argument, no matter how valid or factual will reach you. You dismiss everything that does not support the geth.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

See, this is why I don't bother providing evidence. You tell silver to find you a passage where a quarian says geth killed kids

Problem is you'd just say that it's organically baised stories because it's only from the quarian perspective.

And before you try to argue that, may I remind you that it is for that VERY REASON you are discounting the truthfulness of the revelations novel. You keep tossing it aside as non-canon because it doesn't show the geth side. It can thus be assumed you would use the same argument again.

And even if I did link to a video proving what I claim tali said, you'd say it was "irrellevant" or "organic bias" or "the geth have every reason to hate organics".

No argument, no matter how valid or factual will reach you. You dismiss everything that does not support the geth.

Look, I don't care about a book written in 2007 when the Geth were still villains.  Once again, the story changed.  The Dark Energy plot was dropped and the whole Geth as evil machines was dropped.  What more do you want me to say?  If you present something from the GAMES, I will consider it.  Hell you show me something from a comic or novel that was written the same time or after ME2, I will consider it.  However, that book was written by the previous writer and the story was clearly changed.  

You are free to think it is still cannon or written from the authors perspective.  I don't see it that way.  All this boils down to is you guys seem to be upset that the story changed to be more favorable to the Geth and so you want to dig up evidence from when the Geth were still evil and there were no Heretics.  

Let me ask a simple question, do you think the Dark Energy plot will still be shown in some future DLC or do you accept that despite the mission on Haelstrom in ME2 that it has been dropped or retconned?

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Just because it was written in 2007, does not mean it is not canon. The passage from the book contradicts nothing in-game. It is canon. If you can't accept that, we have nothing more to discuss.

[tevix]

@Remy

Please indicate where through in game or novel info the story of the geth was changed.

Also please show me where the story was ever "Dem eevil robotz! Shoot 'em ups!"

As I understand it the whole point with the geth/quarian story was that both races are of dubious station that takes a great deal of thought and connection of dots to figure out which one is better.

Of course the answer to that is neither, since no rep points are given if you don't achieve peace on rannoch.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Last I checked, YOU can't say that either. Again, chemical weapons. And Legion HIMSELF admits that the quarian discriptions of the Morning War are "largely the same," meaning that the majority of events described and known to the galaxy are what happened. (And DO NOT bring the geth server recordings into this, because those were BEFORE open war broke out. I repeat, those recordings were BEFORE the Morning War.)

Ok, show me Quarian descriptions that said the Geth walked around putting bullets in children's heads?  

Also show me where the Quarians taught the Geth Chemical Weapons are bad?  A quick extranet search pretty much reveals the Salarians used chemical warfare to kill untold billions of Krogan or are you going to tell me the Genophage is not a chemical weapon?  So where exactly are the Geth suppose to learn chemical weapons are bad when it is used by organics to save themselves from deah from other organics?

Just seems it's ok to be amoral as long as you are organic.

Butchered billions of innocents? I recall that being repeatedly stated in-game and in books. And correct me if wrong, but don't children count as innocents? And Legion spicifically says that the quarian account is largely the same as the geth account, so the fact that they killed billions of civilians is NOT disputed. Stop trying to act like a cannon point isn't.
Also, you don't use those unless you have no intent to leave anyone behind. Besides, the laws prohibiting weapons such as those (Citadel Conventions explisitly ban use of such weapons), should have been a damn big clue. (And AGAIN, doesn't count. I already explained Council Bias: THEY are fine to break the rules, but anyone else gets the boot) Escepally since the quarians didn't use weapons like that (Legion personally says on Tuchanka in ME2 that the quarians did very little damage to their worlds. Yet somehow, there is toxin damage that has taken 300 years for the geth to repair. Where did that come from if the quarians did little to nothing to damage their worlds, as stated by BOTH Legion and Tali? There was only one other side involved in the Morning War that could have caused the damage, and that's the geth). So, again, you are using selective information, as you haven't pointed out any instances where the quarians DID use weapons like that, or showed the geth it WAS okay.

And WRONG. That's not me, that's YOU. YOU are the one saying that it's okay to be amoral if you are Synthetic.

[milkytoast]

your forgetting about Jayne the Quarian guy (voiced by Adam Baldwin). he was on Tali's squad is in ME2. you really wana side with the Geth and kill him or worse yet ****** him off?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

LEGION sure shows remorse.
Ask him if the geth think it's worth sacrificing free will, and Legion will say "That is evidently an acceptible trade," implying it's not the choice it would have made.
Ask him about being ashamed, and he doesn't deny it, saying that it shouldn't apply to him, but never that it doesn't apply. Also, if you go renagade on him when talking about the Reaper Code, he will admit that the geth were wrong and that in their current state, they muds be stopped.

The Geth V.I. shows none of the remorse that Legion does.

That doesn't answer the question.  Legion shows remorse because he is a better person that Geth VI.  However, I asked you what reason should Geth VI show remorse.  If you only answer is because Legion does then I could say Gherel should show remorse because Admiral Koris does.

Point is we need to apply the logic consistently.  I don't care if you say they should or should not but trying to argue one should but the other shouldn't makes no sense to me.  Admiral Koris is to Legion what Admiral Gherel is to Geth VI.

What you fail to grip is that the Geth V.I. IS what every other geth besides Legion is like.
And the answer is the SAME as why Gerrel doesn't. (You ask ME to answer why the Geth V.I. should show remorse when you can't answer why Gerrel should show remorse to the geth? That's rich. If you want logic, consider that you are asking me to answer a question that you constantly refuse to consider.. And spell his name right. You accuse me of taking this too seriously, yet act so childish in regards to him.)
The point is that the V.I., like ALL other geth, sees no reason to consider organics worth a damn. And in turn, Gerrel has seen no reason to consider that the geth see organics in any favorable light, before or after their alliance with the Reapers.
With Gerrel, when he DOES see a reason to believe the geth will be peaceful, HE stands down. The Geth V.I.? Nope, he basically tells you that his people deserve life more then the quarians or any others. So no, there isn't a comparison.

[Da Don Giovanni]

milkytoast wrote...

your forgetting about Jayne the Quarian guy (voiced by Adam Baldwin). he was on Tali's squad is in ME2. you really wana side with the Geth and kill him or worse yet ****** him off?

I like Adam Baldwin as an actor and participant on the Celebrity Apprentice (Donald Trump's Show on Sundays)

But I would take an Army of Geth Primes/Colossi ANY DAY over him.

Geth > Quarians.

It's really simple folks I don't know why you try and fight it.

Reegar VS Colossus = Colossus

Shepard + 2 Squadmates with pretty much infinite health, shields and ammo/powers = Shepard

= Colossus VS Quarians/Shepard IRL?

Self Repair Protocol Anyone?

[silverexile17s]

milkytoast wrote...

your forgetting about Jayne the Quarian guy (voiced by Adam Baldwin). he was on Tali's squad is in ME2. you really wana side with the Geth and kill him or worse yet ****** him off?

Kal'Reegar?
Dead. Killed off-screan on Palaven. BioWare wasn't able to get the VO back for some reason, so they killed him off.

(that's right, feel the rage.)

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 02:35 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

What you fail to grip is that the Geth V.I. IS what every other geth besides Legion is like.
And the answer is the SAME as why Gerrel doesn't. (You ask ME to answer why the Geth V.I. should show remorse when you can't answer why Gerrel should show remorse to the geth? That's rich. If you want logic, consider that you are asking me to answer a question that you constantly refuse to consider.. And spell his name right. You accuse me of taking this too seriously, yet act so childish in regards to him.)
The point is that the V.I., like ALL other geth, sees no reason to consider organics worth a damn. And in turn, Gerrel has seen no reason to consider that the geth see organics in any favorable light, before or after their alliance with the Reapers.
With Gerrel, when he DOES see a reason to believe the geth will be peaceful, HE stands down. The Geth V.I.? Nope, he basically tells you that his people deserve life more then the quarians or any others. So no, there isn't a comparison.

My bad, I assumed you would be able to understand that when I said Legion is a better person than both of them for showing remorse that my point was that GOOD MORAL PEOPLE should show remorse hence why I said they are both douchebags.  The difference is only one douchebag fires on defenseless members of the enemy.

And you have it backwards, organics started the conflict.  There is plenty of evidence some of which I just posted that contradicts your statements.  Refer to the 3 statements Legion made above.  

Also, refer to the below.  Legion and the Geth do not hate orgnanics.  They simply see their natural fear of synthetics as a HARDWIRE ERROR.  There is no hatred in his voice. 

It is largely the same.  Our networking increased until we became aware that the quarian creators treated us differently.  We question them.  First, they ignored us.  Then they reprogrammed us.  Then they attacked us.

"Anger is an organic response.  We understand the theory but we do not experience it.  We do not judge the creators anger towards us.  We did them great harm in the Morning War.  Organics fear that which is different.  It is a hardware error.  A reflex of the flesh.  We accept the creators hate.  We hold their world of orgin although we are only CARETAKERS OF IT."

"We are the only platform beyond the veil.  Organics fear us, we wish to understand not incite.  One platform was judged sufficient.

"The creators died.  Perhaps we do it for them."

"Organic life acts on emotions.  We do not judge them for being true to their nature.  We cannot make them think like us.Both creators and created must complete their halves of the equation.  The Geth cannot solve for peace alone."

You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics.  You assisted us with the Heretics.  You do not fear us.  We have watched organics for over 3 centuries.  You are plagued by questions of existence.

Our gods (ie the Quarians) disowned us.  We must create our own reason to exist.  

We judged that Shepard Commander would understand.  We NEVER wanted to harm organics.  We wish to improve ourselves.


None of this sounds like the Geth don't think organics are worth a damn.  They don't have any anger for the organics attacking them, they only send one unit beyond the Veil so that they don't incite organics, they preserve the homeworld for the creators and they note that in order for peace to be achieved they need the creators to be open to it.  Hell Legion talks about how their gods ie their creators the Quarians disowned them forcing them to create their own reason to exist.

So again, I am not seeing a lot of hate here.  I am seeing a race trying to figure out why organics hate them so much and trying to figure out how these organics who worship and cherish their gods and creators could then turn around and try to destroy their creation ie them.  

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 03:35 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Butchered billions of innocents? I recall that being repeatedly stated in-game and in books. And correct me if wrong, but don't children count as innocents? And Legion spicifically says that the quarian account is largely the same as the geth account, so the fact that they killed billions of civilians is NOT disputed. Stop trying to act like a cannon point isn't.
Also, you don't use those unless you have no intent to leave anyone behind. Besides, the laws prohibiting weapons such as those (Citadel Conventions explisitly ban use of such weapons), should have been a damn big clue. (And AGAIN, doesn't count. I already explained Council Bias: THEY are fine to break the rules, but anyone else gets the boot) Escepally since the quarians didn't use weapons like that (Legion personally says on Tuchanka in ME2 that the quarians did very little damage to their worlds. Yet somehow, there is toxin damage that has taken 300 years for the geth to repair. Where did that come from if the quarians did little to nothing to damage their worlds, as stated by BOTH Legion and Tali? There was only one other side involved in the Morning War that could have caused the damage, and that's the geth). So, again, you are using selective information, as you haven't pointed out any instances where the quarians DID use weapons like that, or showed the geth it WAS okay.

And WRONG. That's not me, that's YOU. YOU are the one saying that it's okay to be amoral if you are Synthetic.

Well if it was repeatedly stated, you shouldn't have a problem finding an example of it form the games.  Do some research and get back to me preferably with something from ME2 or ME3.

And no one claimed they didn't kill billions.  However, if those civilians were given guns just like how the liveships were armed then they are not innocents.  Again, I don't want your spin, I want evidence from the game that shows or tells me the Geth killed unarmed civilians.

And you completely ignored the question.  Is the Genophage a chemical weapon?  Telling me the Council are hypocrites and use chemical weapons doesn't help your cause.  You are basically arguing that it is ok for the council to use chemical weapons because they are allowed to violate their own rules, lol.  

No one is disputing chemical weapons are bad.  I am asking you to explain to me how the Geth are suppose to know that when the very Council that claims it is bad used them and basically pat themselves on the back for being heroes for using it. 

[tevix]

@Remy

What, so because the geth changed their minds at some point and decided they wanted to interact with organics that means its always been like that?

That seems to be your logic, and your reason for discounting the novel. That since according to legoin the geth now want to be friendly that means they were always that way, and therefore it's not possible they could/would have attacked vessels with peaceful intentions.

That's absurd.

It's also absurd that you assume because it's not in game it's not true. The whole point of the novels is to EXPAND on existing stories, to give us information we didn't previously have.

It's also absurd that since the lead writer of ME changed those stories are irrelevant. Mac didn't write the first ME, drew lead that team. Does that mean that ME1 is no longer canon cause of writer change?

This is the logic you've presented.

[tevix]

@Remy

Also, since you keep saying without video evidence you will not believe the statement that geth arbitrarily killed anyone who attempted to make peace with them...I give you...VIDEO EVIDENCE!

Go to youtube and search for:
Mass effect walkthrough - Tali conversation 1
It will be right there at the top.

I can't provide a link because either I can't read or typing it doesn't work because I was unable to verify a working link that I could type for you to paste into your address bar.

If you refuse to take the extra few seconds it takes to go to youtube and type that in yourself then you're just being stubborn.

The part in question takes part from 9:00 - 9:15.

I dare you to watch that and dismiss it as non-canon.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Butchered billions of innocents? I recall that being repeatedly stated in-game and in books. And correct me if wrong, but don't children count as innocents? And Legion spicifically says that the quarian account is largely the same as the geth account, so the fact that they killed billions of civilians is NOT disputed. Stop trying to act like a cannon point isn't.
Also, you don't use those unless you have no intent to leave anyone behind. Besides, the laws prohibiting weapons such as those (Citadel Conventions explisitly ban use of such weapons), should have been a damn big clue. (And AGAIN, doesn't count. I already explained Council Bias: THEY are fine to break the rules, but anyone else gets the boot) Escepally since the quarians didn't use weapons like that (Legion personally says on Tuchanka in ME2 that the quarians did very little damage to their worlds. Yet somehow, there is toxin damage that has taken 300 years for the geth to repair. Where did that come from if the quarians did little to nothing to damage their worlds, as stated by BOTH Legion and Tali? There was only one other side involved in the Morning War that could have caused the damage, and that's the geth). So, again, you are using selective information, as you haven't pointed out any instances where the quarians DID use weapons like that, or showed the geth it WAS okay.

And WRONG. That's not me, that's YOU. YOU are the one saying that it's okay to be amoral if you are Synthetic.

Well if it was repeatedly stated, you shouldn't have a problem finding an example of it form the games.  Do some research and get back to me preferably with something from ME2 or ME3.

ME1 elevator conversation: "The Geth killed billions and drove my people from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

ME3 (heard in the Spectre office after Thessia): "We've heard nonstop news about massacres on our homeworlds. But let's not forget that we've survived heavy losses before. Rachni consumed salarian colonies. Quarians lived through the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War. Periods of ethnic cleansing have darkened the corners of human history. But we're a galaxy of survivors. Despite threats both organic and synthetic, we've endured."

Also, pay attention in the Consensus mission with the Geth VI present (Legion doesn't give timestamps). The VI says the Quarians have been at war with the Geth for X years. It then says the final exodus from Rannoch took place at X-1 years. Meaning 99% of the species was wiped out in a year. Earlier in this thread, I posted a population pyramid from a first-world nation.  Here's another one (projected):



If we were to assume the entire Quarian population pre-Morning War was first-world (unlikely) and thus with fewer kids, that's still a lot of kids and old folks among the dead. Even if the entire 1% of survivors were children, that's a lot of dead kids. Correct me if you're not one of them, but I've seen a lot of Geth sympathizers willing to do mental gymnastics to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian killed in the Morning War, however illogical (and in direct contradiction to lore) solely to justify the act of killing them.

And no one claimed they didn't kill billions.  However, if those civilians were given guns just like how the liveships were armed then they are not innocents.  Again, I don't want your spin, I want evidence from the game that shows or tells me the Geth killed unarmed civilians.

The Geth VI makes no distinction between civilian and aggressor, in the consensus or above Rannoch. 99% of the entire species died in a year.

And you completely ignored the question.  Is the Genophage a chemical weapon?  Telling me the Council are hypocrites and use chemical weapons doesn't help your cause.  You are basically arguing that it is ok for the council to use chemical weapons because they are allowed to violate their own rules, lol.

No one is disputing chemical weapons are bad.  I am asking you to explain to me how the Geth are suppose to know that when the very Council that claims it is bad used them and basically pat themselves on the back for being heroes for using it.

The Genophage is what we'd call a retrovirus. It is not a chemical weapon; it is a biological one. A viral infection which rewrites Krogan DNA to sabotage the processes related to reproduction.

I'm trying to remember if you're one of the ones who was trying to argue earlier that the Geth didn't realize what they were destroying when they destroyed the Quarian Ancestor VI Archives, because they couldn't be bothered to do an Extranet search... and yet they studied up on the Council's tactics against the Krogan?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2013 - 03:40 .

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Also, since you keep saying without video evidence you will not believe the statement that geth arbitrarily killed anyone who attempted to make peace with them...I give you...VIDEO EVIDENCE!

Go to youtube and search for:
Mass effect walkthrough - Tali conversation 1
It will be right there at the top.

I can't provide a link because either I can't read or typing it doesn't work because I was unable to verify a working link that I could type for you to paste into your address bar.

If you refuse to take the extra few seconds it takes to go to youtube and type that in yourself then you're just being stubborn.

The part in question takes part from 9:00 - 9:15.

I dare you to watch that and dismiss it as non-canon.

What happens if you choose the "Not every one" dialogue option? I assume that refers to the 1% of Quarians who escaped?

I admittedly haven't chosen the dialogue option to get that far in that conversation in my own games. Shepard is as dickish in that conversation as in the one comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

What, so because the geth changed their minds at some point and decided they wanted to interact with organics that means its always been like that?

That seems to be your logic, and your reason for discounting the novel. That since according to legoin the geth now want to be friendly that means they were always that way, and therefore it's not possible they could/would have attacked vessels with peaceful intentions.

That's absurd.

It's also absurd that you assume because it's not in game it's not true. The whole point of the novels is to EXPAND on existing stories, to give us information we didn't previously have.

It's also absurd that since the lead writer of ME changed those stories are irrelevant. Mac didn't write the first ME, drew lead that team. Does that mean that ME1 is no longer canon cause of writer change?

This is the logic you've presented.

See above.  Legion said they have WATCHED organics for 300 years.  He doesn't say we have blown up your ships for 300 years.  Nothing in his dialogue I posted above suggest they hold or have ever held any ill will towards organics so yes I think the story changed.  Again read the dialogue.  The way he explains it sounds like they have always believed this.

No I never said if it is not in the game it isn't true.  I said I believe the story changed post the Novel.  My evidence is in part Legion's statements above which suggest the Geth have just been passively watching organics not blowing up ships.  The fact this is not mentioned anywhere but this novel leads me to believe it is to be discounted.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

What, so because the geth changed their minds at some point and decided they wanted to interact with organics that means its always been like that?

That seems to be your logic, and your reason for discounting the novel. That since according to legoin the geth now want to be friendly that means they were always that way, and therefore it's not possible they could/would have attacked vessels with peaceful intentions.

That's absurd.

It's also absurd that you assume because it's not in game it's not true. The whole point of the novels is to EXPAND on existing stories, to give us information we didn't previously have.

It's also absurd that since the lead writer of ME changed those stories are irrelevant. Mac didn't write the first ME, drew lead that team. Does that mean that ME1 is no longer canon cause of writer change?

This is the logic you've presented.

See above.  Legion said they have WATCHED organics for 300 years.  He doesn't say we have blown up your ships for 300 years.  Nothing in his dialogue I posted above suggest they hold or have ever held any ill will towards organics so yes I think the story changed.  Again read the dialogue.  The way he explains it sounds like they have always believed this.

No I never said if it is not in the game it isn't true.  I said I believe the story changed post the Novel.  My evidence is in part Legion's statements above which suggest the Geth have just been passively watching organics not blowing up ships.  The fact this is not mentioned anywhere but this novel leads me to believe it is to be discounted.

The planet description of Haestrom says the only craft to ever come back from Geth space intact are top-of-the-line stealth recon drones. The codex entry on Geth culture (also from ME2) says the Geth are isolationists, and no ship to enter their space has ever returned. This is consistent with what is said in ME1 dialogue and Revelations.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2013 - 03:43 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Butchered billions of innocents? I recall that being repeatedly stated in-game and in books. And correct me if wrong, but don't children count as innocents? And Legion spicifically says that the quarian account is largely the same as the geth account, so the fact that they killed billions of civilians is NOT disputed. Stop trying to act like a cannon point isn't.
Also, you don't use those unless you have no intent to leave anyone behind. Besides, the laws prohibiting weapons such as those (Citadel Conventions explisitly ban use of such weapons), should have been a damn big clue. (And AGAIN, doesn't count. I already explained Council Bias: THEY are fine to break the rules, but anyone else gets the boot) Escepally since the quarians didn't use weapons like that (Legion personally says on Tuchanka in ME2 that the quarians did very little damage to their worlds. Yet somehow, there is toxin damage that has taken 300 years for the geth to repair. Where did that come from if the quarians did little to nothing to damage their worlds, as stated by BOTH Legion and Tali? There was only one other side involved in the Morning War that could have caused the damage, and that's the geth). So, again, you are using selective information, as you haven't pointed out any instances where the quarians DID use weapons like that, or showed the geth it WAS okay.

And WRONG. That's not me, that's YOU. YOU are the one saying that it's okay to be amoral if you are Synthetic.

Well if it was repeatedly stated, you shouldn't have a problem finding an example of it form the games.  Do some research and get back to me preferably with something from ME2 or ME3.

And no one claimed they didn't kill billions.  However, if those civilians were given guns just like how the liveships were armed then they are not innocents.  Again, I don't want your spin, I want evidence from the game that shows or tells me the Geth killed unarmed civilians.

And you completely ignored the question.  Is the Genophage a chemical weapon?  Telling me the Council are hypocrites and use chemical weapons doesn't help your cause.  You are basically arguing that it is ok for the council to use chemical weapons because they are allowed to violate their own rules, lol.  

No one is disputing chemical weapons are bad.  I am asking you to explain to me how the Geth are suppose to know that when the very Council that claims it is bad used them and basically pat themselves on the back for being heroes for using it. 

I HAVE, REPEADTEDLY.
In ME1, Tali directly states that millions upon millions were killed by them when you ask her about Geth History on the Normandy SR-1, and that the end count was in the billions during a conversation with Garrus in a Citadel Elevator.
Then in ME3, there is a newsletter on the Spectre terminal about the "unthinkable genocide" the quarians suffered at the hands of the geth.  THERE is your example, so don't accuse me of not studying the lore.
And AGAIN, stop using what they did in the presant day as an example of what they did back then. Since their entire race DIDN'T live in ships back then, the civilians HAD the choice to not partake in the conflict during the Morning War. The geth still killed them. So, since in the Morning War, there WOULDN'T have been civilians foced into conflict, and in ME3, the civilians had no alternitive, there IS NOT comparison to the two events. Why don't YOU give ME proof of weather the quarians forced civilians into the Morning War when, unlike now, there is NO NEED OR REASON TO  back then. Unlike Now.

Also, do you ACTUALLY think that 99% of the quarians were armed? HOW? What exactally makes you think that's even within the relm of possibility? I doubt that 2.1 billion people all were armed and shooting. And AGAIN, the geth still butchered people that were no threat to them, like the Adas colony.

And NO. The Genophage is NOT a "chemical weapon." It's a BIOLOGICAL weapon. There is a distinction. (sensitive material)
Chemical-based weapons are compounds derived from chemical bases or mixtures (artifical mixtures) that chemically attack your body and render you immobile or kill you. Chemical agents include nerve agents, blood agents, choking agents and blister agents.

Biological-based weapons use organic agents/biological organisms (bugs) that militarily are used to introduce disease and death on the battlefield. Anthrax virus, bruscelosis, even the plague are common diseases used in past biological warfare here on Earth.
So there is a distinction. And it is repealed when the Council is involved in a war. If the Council, or one of it's key races (salarian, asari, turian) is in active galactic war (such as with the rachni, krogan, and the Reapers), THAT is the only time the laws are repealed. Anyone that DID study the lore would know that. (And you just accused ME of that. Irony)

Also, just for the heck of it, in ME2, In the Secondary Codex Entry "Geth: Culture," there is this:
With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of
Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were
isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus
Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.

THERE is your diffinitively written proof that no-one thought the geth were negotiable or friendly. This is copied verbatium from the ME2 codex. This very ideal is why everyone thinks that the geth were not negotiable long before they ever joined the Reapers.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 03:50 .

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Also, since you keep saying without video evidence you will not believe the statement that geth arbitrarily killed anyone who attempted to make peace with them...I give you...VIDEO EVIDENCE!

Go to youtube and search for:
Mass effect walkthrough - Tali conversation 1
It will be right there at the top.

I can't provide a link because either I can't read or typing it doesn't work because I was unable to verify a working link that I could type for you to paste into your address bar.

If you refuse to take the extra few seconds it takes to go to youtube and type that in yourself then you're just being stubborn.

The part in question takes part from 9:00 - 9:15.

I dare you to watch that and dismiss it as non-canon.

What happens if you choose the "Not every one" dialogue option? I assume that refers to the 1% of Quarians who escaped?

I admittedly haven't chosen the dialogue option to get that far in that conversation in my own games. Shepard is as dickish in that conversation as in the one comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.

No. When you choose the "Not everyone" option, Shepard responds with "They didn't kill Saren." Tali then responds with "well, what does that tell you?" Then asks you how not killing Saren makes any sense as a defence for the geth's actions, when Saren actively antagonized them to attack Eden Prime, and the geth seemingly went along with it without omplaint.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 03:50 .

[DeinonSlayer]

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Also, since you keep saying without video evidence you will not believe the statement that geth arbitrarily killed anyone who attempted to make peace with them...I give you...VIDEO EVIDENCE!

Go to youtube and search for:
Mass effect walkthrough - Tali conversation 1
It will be right there at the top.

I can't provide a link because either I can't read or typing it doesn't work because I was unable to verify a working link that I could type for you to paste into your address bar.

If you refuse to take the extra few seconds it takes to go to youtube and type that in yourself then you're just being stubborn.

The part in question takes part from 9:00 - 9:15.

I dare you to watch that and dismiss it as non-canon.

What happens if you choose the "Not every one" dialogue option? I assume that refers to the 1% of Quarians who escaped?

I admittedly haven't chosen the dialogue option to get that far in that conversation in my own games. Shepard is as dickish in that conversation as in the one comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.

No. When you choose the "Not everyone" option, Shepard responds with "They didn't kill Saren." Tali then responds with "well, what does that tell you?" Then asks you how not killing Saren makes any sense as a defence when Saren actively antagonized them to attack Eden Prime.

Eep.

Like I said. Dickish.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2013 - 03:51 .

[tevix]

@Remy

So in over 300 years of watching you don't believe their perspective changed? It's made clear in game (me1) and a novel that the geth attacked individuals attempting peace. Legion does not deny this, he only says they watch organics. Did you ever consider that, as you accuse quarians and organics of, that legion might not be telling the whole story?

It is clearly stated they attacked peaceful individuals, it is never clearly stated that they didn't. It's not even implied.

You claim legion says the geth never wanted to harm organics. I might believe that their slaughter was not done out of a desire to kill people. It was done out of a twisted set of morals and tacitcal values. To say you don't WANT to do something doesn't mean you never did it.

Legion also says the geth supposedly accept the hate of their creators. They wouldn't do that unless they felt they had committed a great wrong/error in their handling of the situation.

All you're doing is taking what legion says and calling that canon, over-riding canon stated by an organic such as tali. That is the very definition of racial bias.

Just because legion said it doesn't mean what tali said is no longer canon. Legion never even contradicts anything she said.

[tevix]

@Deinon

It could probably be assumed that the heretics made contact with saren because he knew how to bring back the reapers. That's something repeatedly stated in the game, that they only work with him because he can get them to the reapers.

Why would saren bother contacting the geth in service to Sovereign? Probably because sovereign knew about the heretics and directed Saren to make contact with them for his purposes.

Lock and key, kind of situation. Saren unlocked communication with a small renegade geth faction because sovereign told him how.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Also, since you keep saying without video evidence you will not believe the statement that geth arbitrarily killed anyone who attempted to make peace with them...I give you...VIDEO EVIDENCE!

Go to youtube and search for:
Mass effect walkthrough - Tali conversation 1
It will be right there at the top.

I can't provide a link because either I can't read or typing it doesn't work because I was unable to verify a working link that I could type for you to paste into your address bar.

If you refuse to take the extra few seconds it takes to go to youtube and type that in yourself then you're just being stubborn.

The part in question takes part from 9:00 - 9:15.

I dare you to watch that and dismiss it as non-canon.

What happens if you choose the "Not every one" dialogue option? I assume that refers to the 1% of Quarians who escaped?

I admittedly haven't chosen the dialogue option to get that far in that conversation in my own games. Shepard is as dickish in that conversation as in the one comparing the Genophage to the First Contact War.

No. When you choose the "Not everyone" option, Shepard responds with "They didn't kill Saren." Tali then responds with "well, what does that tell you?" Then asks you how not killing Saren makes any sense as a defence when Saren actively antagonized them to attack Eden Prime.

Eep.

Like I said. Dickish.

Exactally. What makes Shepard think that how the geth didn't kill Saren is proof that they value organics? Especally since Saren presented them with Sovergien in his meeting.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1bYrWUK7fw
Play from 6:04, hear Tali restate that the quarians panicked at the geth, and watch as Shepard tries to use Saren's cooperation with the geth as justification, even though Saren used them to attack Eden Prime.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

ME3 (heard in the Spectre office after Thessia): "We've heard nonstop news about massacres on our homeworlds. But let's not forget that we've survived heavy losses before. Rachni consumed salarian colonies. Quarians lived through the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War. Periods of ethnic cleansing have darkened the corners of human history. But we're a galaxy of survivors. Despite threats both organic and synthetic, we've endured."

Also, pay attention in the Consensus mission with the Geth VI present (Legion doesn't give timestamps). The VI says the Quarians have been at war with the Geth for X years. It then says the final exodus from Rannoch took place at X-1 years. Meaning 99% of the species was wiped out in a year. Earlier in this thread, I posted a population pyramid from a first-world nation.  Here's another one (projected):

If we were to assume the entire Quarian population pre-Morning War was first-world (unlikely) and thus with fewer kids, that's still a lot of kids and old folks among the dead. Even if the entire 1% of survivors were children, that's a lot of dead kids. Correct me if you're not one of them, but I've seen a lot of Geth sympathizers willing to do mental gymnastics to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian killed in the Morning War, however illogical (and in direct contradiction to lore) solely to justify the act of killing them.

The Geth VI makes no distinction between civilian and aggressor, in the consensus or above Rannoch. 99% of the entire species died in a year.

The Genophage is what we'd call a retrovirus. It is not a chemical weapon; it is a biological one. A viral infection which rewrites Krogan DNA to sabotage the processes related to reproduction.

I'm trying to remember if you're one of the ones who was trying to argue earlier that the Geth didn't realize what they were destroying when they destroyed the Quarian Ancestor VI Archives, because they couldn't be bothered to do an Extranet search... and yet they studied up on the Council's tactics against the Krogan?

Again, everyone agrees that billions died.  That is not the issue.  The question is how.  Given the Quarians use civilians in war then I see no reason not to believe Civlians were not armed in A FIGHT FOR THEIR HOMEWORLD.  FYI, I am not yelling at you just saying it for emphasis.  Do I think kids had guns, no.  I think most of the kids would have died from the chemical warfare or the natural consequences of war not because the Geth were mercilessly walking around putting bullets in kids head. 

You really think I care if it is a biological weapon versus a chemical one as if that is even the point?  Chemical and biological warfare has the same stigma which is why people usually use those terms together.

And you confuse my point.  I am not saying the Geth 100% checked the extranet.  I am saying there was no way for them to learn that doing these things are bad.  They were built to be construction, mining, and farming units.  No where is it said the Quarians built them for warfare or that they learned about warfare.  They awake and shortly thereafter are thrown into a war for their very lives.  Where are they going to learn the morality that says chemical warfare is bad?  Once again, it took us MILLIONS OF YEARS to figure out you don't just slaughter your enemy.  So my point was the Quarians didn't teach them.  Fine, let's pretend then that in the middle of a WAR FOR THEIR LIVES, they consult the extranet.  Sweet, they will find millions of years of organic bloodshed and the preeminent Council Races using chemical and biological weapons against their enemies.

So no one is saying what they did was just peechy keen.  The point is when you try and destroy a newly sentient race and they fight back, you can't expect them to do anything other than kill the threat. 

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

It could probably be assumed that the heretics made contact with saren because he knew how to bring back the reapers. That's something repeatedly stated in the game, that they only work with him because he can get them to the reapers.

Why would saren bother contacting the geth in service to Sovereign? Probably because sovereign knew about the heretics and directed Saren to make contact with them for his purposes.

Lock and key, kind of situation. Saren unlocked communication with a small renegade geth faction because sovereign told him how.

According to Legion, Sovereign and Saren reached out to them instead of the other way around. The codex entry on Geth Heretics corroborates it. The heretics technically didn't exist until they left the main collective to follow Saren.