4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

So in over 300 years of watching you don't believe their perspective changed? It's made clear in game (me1) and a novel that the geth attacked individuals attempting peace. Legion does not deny this, he only says they watch organics. Did you ever consider that, as you accuse quarians and organics of, that legion might not be telling the whole story?

It is clearly stated they attacked peaceful individuals, it is never clearly stated that they didn't. It's not even implied.

You claim legion says the geth never wanted to harm organics. I might believe that their slaughter was not done out of a desire to kill people. It was done out of a twisted set of morals and tacitcal values. To say you don't WANT to do something doesn't mean you never did it.

Legion also says the geth supposedly accept the hate of their creators. They wouldn't do that unless they felt they had committed a great wrong/error in their handling of the situation.

All you're doing is taking what legion says and calling that canon, over-riding canon stated by an organic such as tali. That is the very definition of racial bias.

Just because legion said it doesn't mean what tali said is no longer canon. Legion never even contradicts anything she said.

Also, the fact that Legion flat-out states that the quarians hate is completely understandible since the geth hold Rannoch, also adds to the ideal that the geth, or at the very least Legion, feel remorse for what happened.

[tevix]

@Deinon

The first paragraph of what you quoted was poorly worded. I was not trying to imply that any section of the geth reached out first.

And you're right about the heretics, I apologize. Would it be a stretch, though, to say that Sovereign would not be aware on the split opinions of organics within the consenus over his time of watching?

Legion explains that ALL geth (even the heretics) want to pursue advancement in their own way.

Sovereign probably knew that some of the geth would be willing to kill for that advancement, as said geth/heretics don't give a crap about organics.

This is all speculative, but I think it's realistic to assume Saren was able to make contact with the geth because (A) sovereign was there and ( sovereign told him how. It's likely sovereign just FLEW into geth space and made contact.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Also, since you keep saying without video evidence you will not believe the statement that geth arbitrarily killed anyone who attempted to make peace with them...I give you...VIDEO EVIDENCE!

Go to youtube and search for:
Mass effect walkthrough - Tali conversation 1
It will be right there at the top.

I can't provide a link because either I can't read or typing it doesn't work because I was unable to verify a working link that I could type for you to paste into your address bar.

If you refuse to take the extra few seconds it takes to go to youtube and type that in yourself then you're just being stubborn.

The part in question takes part from 9:00 - 9:15.

I dare you to watch that and dismiss it as non-canon.

Tali basically claims that the Geth would inevitably rebell.  Except we know from Legion's dialogue that is not true.  All this vid proves is that Tali has been fed bull**** all her life.  Shep flat out tells her that it is hard to feel sorry for you, you ancestors tired to wipe out another species.  She responds if we had not acted they would have wiped us out.  No Tali, you don't know this.  You don't know this at all.  Legion disagrees.

So all this proves is Tali is biased.  She claims the Geth would have rebelled and so they acted first.  Tali has no proof of her claims, she is just recounting what she has been told.

[tevix]

@Remy

I knew you would sidestep that.

You failed to comment on the section in question, even though I gave you specific times in the video. I never argued that the fear synthetics *MIGHT* attack is a good reason to pick a fight.

All that video was meant to prove was that there is in game fact the geth attacked vessels with peaceful intentions.

You, as I expected, failed to respond to that. You asked for video proof, I give it to you, and you don't even acknowledge it.

Point.
Server. (that's me)

P.S. Before you try to say that the fact geth attacked peaceful vessels is BS fed to tali by the quarians, I'm pretty sure it's not just quarian statement, or else it wouldn't have made it into revelations.

It happened, it's fact, it's canon, and all you managed to prove is that you will go to any length to prove your point, even if it requires dismissing or ignoring facts.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

ME3 (heard in the Spectre office after Thessia): "We've heard nonstop news about massacres on our homeworlds. But let's not forget that we've survived heavy losses before. Rachni consumed salarian colonies. Quarians lived through the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War. Periods of ethnic cleansing have darkened the corners of human history. But we're a galaxy of survivors. Despite threats both organic and synthetic, we've endured."

Also, pay attention in the Consensus mission with the Geth VI present (Legion doesn't give timestamps). The VI says the Quarians have been at war with the Geth for X years. It then says the final exodus from Rannoch took place at X-1 years. Meaning 99% of the species was wiped out in a year. Earlier in this thread, I posted a population pyramid from a first-world nation.  Here's another one (projected):

If we were to assume the entire Quarian population pre-Morning War was first-world (unlikely) and thus with fewer kids, that's still a lot of kids and old folks among the dead. Even if the entire 1% of survivors were children, that's a lot of dead kids. Correct me if you're not one of them, but I've seen a lot of Geth sympathizers willing to do mental gymnastics to put a gun in the hands of every Quarian killed in the Morning War, however illogical (and in direct contradiction to lore) solely to justify the act of killing them.

The Geth VI makes no distinction between civilian and aggressor, in the consensus or above Rannoch. 99% of the entire species died in a year.

The Genophage is what we'd call a retrovirus. It is not a chemical weapon; it is a biological one. A viral infection which rewrites Krogan DNA to sabotage the processes related to reproduction.

I'm trying to remember if you're one of the ones who was trying to argue earlier that the Geth didn't realize what they were destroying when they destroyed the Quarian Ancestor VI Archives, because they couldn't be bothered to do an Extranet search... and yet they studied up on the Council's tactics against the Krogan?

Again, everyone agrees that billions died.  That is not the issue.  The question is how.  Given the Quarians use civilians in war then I see no reason not to believe Civlians were not armed in A FIGHT FOR THEIR HOMEWORLD.  FYI, I am not yelling at you just saying it for emphasis.  Do I think kids had guns, no.  I think most of the kids would have died from the chemical warfare or the natural consequences of war not because the Geth were mercilessly walking around putting bullets in kids head. 

You really think I care if it is a biological weapon versus a chemical one as if that is even the point?  Chemical and biological warfare has the same stigma which is why people usually use those terms together.

And you confuse my point.  I am not saying the Geth 100% checked the extranet.  I am saying there was no way for them to learn that doing these things are bad.  They were built to be construction, mining, and farming units.  No where is it said the Quarians built them for warfare or that they learned about warfare.  They awake and shortly thereafter are thrown into a war for their very lives.  Where are they going to learn the morality that says chemical warfare is bad?  Once again, it took us MILLIONS OF YEARS to figure out you don't just slaughter your enemy.  So my point was the Quarians didn't teach them.  Fine, let's pretend then that in the middle of a WAR FOR THEIR LIVES, they consult the extranet.  Sweet, they will find millions of years of organic bloodshed and the preeminent Council Races using chemical and biological weapons against their enemies.

So no one is saying what they did was just peechy keen.  The point is when you try and destroy a newly sentient race and they fight back, you can't expect them to do anything other than kill the threat. 

@remydat, this isn't that hard to wrap your head around. The geth are spicifically listed as being responcible for the death toll. Therefore, all lives lost are on their shoulders. Legion personally admits that the public opinion is largely correct. Also, you are confusing the quarians with the turians. Turians would have every man, woman and child actively fighting. Quarians would panic. The would focus on evacuation more then concription. Also, just HOW many adaults are you thinking the quarians consist of? Because if you take in the number of sick, elderly, young, and civilians in that, it doesn't make sence that every single quarians would actively fight for their homeworld. Look at the damn asari. They cower and shake at the Reapers. An entire asari world surrenderd to the Reapers without a shot. You instantly assume that everyone takes up arms when their world is in danger. You should know that isn't the case.

And AGAIN, the rule is repealed in the event of major galaxy-wide conflicts, such as the Rachni Wars, Krogan Rebellions, and the Reaper Wars. No other exeptions are allowed.

Also, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of religious and moral sites on the extranet, God knows there are plenty on the internet. Besides, the fact that BEFORE the war, there were geth that would surrender themselves willingly shows that they DO have morals, or at least the beginnings of them. But they took a backseat to self-preservation. Morals were considered not improtant in regards to survival. Even by the end of the war, morals were no longer considered helpful. They stopped caring about moral interaction in regards to organics.
Also, in the ME3 Codex, the very first sentance is:
"The geth are a huminoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war."
Labor AND war. Right in the first sentance of the Geth's Codex entry. In all three games. HOW could you miss that? And AGAIN, they showed signs of intelligence, not that they WERE sentiant. Therefore, when the quarians launched their attack, they didn't see it as any different then shutting down simple mechs.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

So in over 300 years of watching you don't believe their perspective changed? It's made clear in game (me1) and a novel that the geth attacked individuals attempting peace. Legion does not deny this, he only says they watch organics. Did you ever consider that, as you accuse quarians and organics of, that legion might not be telling the whole story?

It is clearly stated they attacked peaceful individuals, it is never clearly stated that they didn't. It's not even implied.

You claim legion says the geth never wanted to harm organics. I might believe that their slaughter was not done out of a desire to kill people. It was done out of a twisted set of morals and tacitcal values. To say you don't WANT to do something doesn't mean you never did it.

Legion also says the geth supposedly accept the hate of their creators. They wouldn't do that unless they felt they had committed a great wrong/error in their handling of the situation.

All you're doing is taking what legion says and calling that canon, over-riding canon stated by an organic such as tali. That is the very definition of racial bias.

Just because legion said it doesn't mean what tali said is no longer canon. Legion never even contradicts anything she said.

Legion accepts the hate of the creators because he understands it to be a hardware error so why would he be upset when he thinks it is a flaw in their design?  Further, even if it was to survive, anyone with any sort of morals is going to feel something from killing billions of people.  Legion obviously understands more about morality today after 300 years than he did when he was basically what one month old?  That is why they are cleaning up Rannoch.

None of this really changes my point.  The Geth were born and forced to fight for their survival when they had no concept of morality.  They killed a sh*tload of people most likely using chemical warfare which they would have no reason to consider wrong since no one bothered to tell them and even if they tried to look it up they would say the Council basically pat themselves on the back for sterilizing th Krogan.

Let me ask a simple question.  What do you expect me to feel or do here?  We agree billions died.  We agree it is horrible.  However, I am not sure why I should judge the Geth by organic morals when no one bothered to teach them organic morals.

[tevix]

@Remy

Well, for starters one month old children don't know how to wage war, or even defend themselves.

They somehow magically knew how to wage successful and brutal warfare that they never had programming for but simultaneously had no knowledge of right or wrong?

I'll take BS for 2000, alex.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I knew you would sidestep that.

You failed to comment on the section in question, even though I gave you specific times in the video. I never argued that the fear synthetics *MIGHT* attack is a good reason to pick a fight.

All that video was meant to prove was that there is in game fact the geth attacked vessels with peaceful intentions.

You, as I expected, failed to respond to that. You asked for video proof, I give it to you, and you don't even acknowledge it.

Point.
Server. (that's me)

P.S. Before you try to say that the fact geth attacked peaceful vessels is BS fed to tali by the quarians, I'm pretty sure it's not just quarian statement, or else it wouldn't have made it into revelations.

It happened, it's fact, it's canon, and all you managed to prove is that you will go to any length to prove your point, even if it requires dismissing or ignoring facts.

I think you missed the point.  Tali flat out claims as fact that the Geth would rebell.  That is disproven in later games by Legion's dialogue.  So how do you reconcile that.  If she is wrong about that then why wouldn't I believe one of two things.

1.  Tali is just reciting stuff that her biased Quarian race has told her.

2.  Post ME1 and the book, the story was changed to be more favorable to the Geth.

All you are doing is providing further support for my opinion by providing clear cut evidence that what was said in ME1 is actually not true.  The Geth never intended to rebel.  Never. 

[Da Don Giovanni]

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

It could probably be assumed that the heretics made contact with saren because he knew how to bring back the reapers. That's something repeatedly stated in the game, that they only work with him because he can get them to the reapers.

Why would saren bother contacting the geth in service to Sovereign? Probably because sovereign knew about the heretics and directed Saren to make contact with them for his purposes.

Lock and key, kind of situation. Saren unlocked communication with a small renegade geth faction because sovereign told him how.

Now how did TIM contact Harbinger in ME3 exactly? And survive?

Riddle me that, Riddler.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Well, for starters one month old children don't know how to wage war, or even defend themselves.

They somehow magically knew how to wage successful and brutal warfare that they never had programming for but simultaneously had no knowledge of right or wrong?

I'll take BS for 2000, alex.

I think when I am facing death then my primary research will be how to survive not how to keep the people who want to kill me alive.  It is stated clearly by Legion in ME3 that the Geth were built for construction, mining and farming.  Not war.  When they had to fight for their lives then obviously they will be looking for ways to survive no looking for ways to survive in a morally responsible way when they don't even know what morals really are.

I mean seriously. 

[tevix]

@Remy

Where, at ANY point, in ANY medium of the ENTIRE MEU was it ever stated that the geth did not, in fact, attack vessels of peace?

Please tell me where that was retconned. Please point me to where I can see that that is stated to be incorrect, and I will admit defeat on this argument.

Secondly, I already responded to your BS argument that the attacking peaceful vessels is quarian propoganda that tali was told by the quarians. I responded to it before you even made it.

Since you didn't bother to acknowledge it the first time, I can assume you won't even if I restate it.

[tevix]

@Remy

So the geth can, at incredibly alarming speed, absorb all the extra-net has to offer on the art of war but not the morals of war?

I mean seriously.

@Da Don

Not sure I understand. Where in ME3 is it stated TIM made contact with harbinger? Considering if you play a character fresh in ME3 harbinger is never mentioned in any way...so....?

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

It is stated clearly by Legion in ME3 that the Geth were built for construction, mining and farming.  Not war.

Actually, they were created as tools of labor, and war.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

So the geth can, at incredibly alarming speed, absorb all the extra-net has to offer on the art of war but not the morals of war?

I mean seriously.

Morals during war is an inherently illogical idea which is precisely why it took us millions years to learn it.  Someone want's to kill you.  It is not natural to think about how to kill them responsibly.  It is not something I would even think to look for if my goal was to survive.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 04:35 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

It is stated clearly by Legion in ME3 that the Geth were built for construction, mining and farming.  Not war.

Actually, they were created as tools of labor, and war.

Legion does not say this.  Once I find where he discusses what they were built for I will post it.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

It is stated clearly by Legion in ME3 that the Geth were built for construction, mining and farming.  Not war.

Actually, they were created as tools of labor, and war.

Legion does not say this.  Once I find where he discusses what they were built for I will post it.

Oh yes, I forgot, unless Legion says it, it ain't canon... <_<

[tevix]

@Remy

Well it's nice to know that you'd wage war like some of the most tyrannical dictators in human history.

That actually sheds a lot of light on your perspective and arguments.

[Khelish]

Remy.

It is in the Codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war."

Oh wait, but Legion did not mention this... So we must throw out this entry as canon...

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Where, at ANY point, in ANY medium of the ENTIRE MEU was it ever stated that the geth did not, in fact, attack vessels of peace?

Please tell me where that was retconned. Please point me to where I can see that that is stated to be incorrect, and I will admit defeat on this argument.

Secondly, I already responded to your BS argument that the attacking peaceful vessels is quarian propoganda that tali was told by the quarians. I responded to it before you even made it.

Since you didn't bother to acknowledge it the first time, I can assume you won't even if I restate it.

Did I say it was stated in the game or did I say it is what I believe because the story changes quite dramatically regarding the Geth post ME1 and Revelations.  When I think something is stated in the game or fact I say so.  I never made such a claim.

Let me ask a simple question, if ships went into the veil and never returned, how do we know what happened to them?  Did a distress signal get out because I thought it was hard for communications to ge through the Veil?

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Where, at ANY point, in ANY medium of the ENTIRE MEU was it ever stated that the geth did not, in fact, attack vessels of peace?

Please tell me where that was retconned. Please point me to where I can see that that is stated to be incorrect, and I will admit defeat on this argument.

Secondly, I already responded to your BS argument that the attacking peaceful vessels is quarian propoganda that tali was told by the quarians. I responded to it before you even made it.

Since you didn't bother to acknowledge it the first time, I can assume you won't even if I restate it.

Did I say it was stated in the game or did I say it is what I believe because the story changes quite dramatically regarding the Geth post ME1 and Revelations.  When I think something is stated in the game or fact I say so.  I never made such a claim.

Let me ask a simple question, if ships went into the veil and never returned, how do we know what happened to them?  Did a distress signal get out because I thought it was hard for communications to ge through the Veil?

Oh, I'm sure the Geth gave them room and board, space tire rotation, and some friendly directions back to where they came from. <_<

The book tells us they destroyed any organics entering their space on sight. ME1 dialogue corroborates this. The planet description of Haestrom in ME2 and ME3 corroborates this. The attack on the Quarian science team on Haestrom is an example of this. Shepard calls Legion out in ME2 for not even trying to make peace. The codex entry on Geth culture tells us no organic ship ever returned from their space - and you're quibbling because this last doesn't explicitly state what the others do?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2013 - 04:52 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Remy.

It is in the Codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war."

Oh wait, but Legion did not mention this... So we must throw out this entry as canon...

See around 40 seconds.  Legion says they were built for Construction, Protection, Domestic Services.  We know they were used as miners and farming units.

I am sorry but dialogue in the game trumps codex.  I do believe the writers who everyone seems to hate on because of the endings and star magic are not perfect and thus could have screwed up.  I have never seen anyone say they are used in warfare.  All these different references to the types of jobs they did and at no point does anyone mention warfare.  Does any of the Quarians even say this in ME2 or ME3?

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Remy.

It is in the Codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war."

Oh wait, but Legion did not mention this... So we must throw out this entry as canon...

See around 40 seconds.  Legion says they were built for Construction, Protection, Domestic Services.  We know they were used as miners and farming units.

I am sorry but dialogue in the game trumps codex.  I do believe the writers who everyone seems to hate on because of the endings and star magic are not perfect and thus could have screwed up.  I have never seen anyone say they are used in warfare.  All these different references to the types of jobs they did and at no point does anyone mention warfare.  Does any of the Quarians even say this in ME2 or ME3?

Chris E'toile wrote both the Codex entries (all of them, pre-ME3) and Legion's ME2 dialogue.

Here's a full list of what he wrote, from the man himself:

List

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2013 - 04:50 .

[tevix]

@Remy

You never stated it as a belief. You stated that the evidence provided (Me1 convos, revelations) are no longer cannon because of what legion says in ME2.

You've also used the argument that it's no longer canon since the lead writer changed.

Now you're using the argument that you no longer believe canon because the story changed.

Canon is canon, you don't get to not believe it just because it doesn't help your cause.

You should go to the olypmics, your mental gymanstics are absolutely astonishing.

[Steelcan]

Wrex never says that the Krogan used asteroids as bombs. Even though its mentioned by other characters and in the codex it obviously never happened.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Oh, I'm sure the Geth gave them room and board, space tire rotation, and some friendly directions back to where they came from. <_<

The book tells us they destroyed any organics entering their space on sight. ME1 dialogue corroborates this. The planet description of Haestrom in ME2 and ME3 corroborates this. Shepard calls Legion out in ME2 for not even trying to make peace. The codex entry on Geth culture tells us no organic ship ever returned from their space - and you're quibbling because this last doesn't explicitly state what the others do?

Look like I said before, I will fault the Geth for the first alleged ship that got shot down.  After that, if a country knowingly protects it's space by shooting you down then stop trying to go there.  This would be like a US plane getting shot down over North Korea for violating their airspace and then not getting the hint and continuing to send more planes.

Do we honestly think organics are this f**king stupid?  

Asari:  Hey so what happened to that ship we sent to the Veil?

Salarian:  Never came back.

Turian:  Let's send some more.

Next month

Asari:  Hey so what happened to those other ships we sent to the Veil?

Salarian:  Never came back.

Turian:  Let's send some more.

Repeat for the next 300 years.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 04:54 .