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*THE GREAT DEBATE* - NO PEACE obtainable between the Geth & Quarians: Who would you choose and Why? (Pic of BioWare Stats Inside)


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#2801
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Right just like the Geth die for being stupid enough to turn to the Reapers, starting a fight they can't win...


Which once again, you are free to decide.  Only you guys keep trying to convert me when I have said all along you can do what you want.


Oh no it's fine now.

I know you'll never be swayed from your "Geth are huggable, awesome, and cute while Organics are evil racists who deserve no sympathy" view.

You've just given me an (insane) way to kill off the Geth with no regrets.

#2802
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...

When your population is less than one percent of its former strength and your enemy is operating at peak capacity you have ceased to be a threat.


Really how is it then that this 1% eventually almost wipe out the Geth 300 years later?  Their population hasn't grown back to 1 billion  Are the Geth suppose to know that this weapon that was made 300 years later could not have been made during the MW?  The Quarians are a threat until they flee.  And even then they are still a threat which is why armies typically routed the enemy when they retreat to ensure they didn't survive to fight another day.

Seems to be a lot of meta-gaming here.

#2803
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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I do find it kind of funny that you deny the whole "The geth have killed any organics who have tried to contact them" bit. It's...canon but again whatever floats your synthetic loving boat.

#2804
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...

I have no intention of "converting" you, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument


My argument is simple, if you are the aggressor and get your a** handed to you then there is a lesson in there.

#2805
remydat

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I do find it kind of funny that you deny the whole "The geth have killed any organics who have tried to contact them" bit. It's...canon but again whatever floats your synthetic loving boat.


You mean like how the person who said also killed the Geth rebellion was inevitable despite Legion later saying otherwise?

#2806
Papa John0

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Geth. The Quarians are idiots.

#2807
Steelcan

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remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

When your population is less than one percent of its former strength and your enemy is operating at peak capacity you have ceased to be a threat.


Really how is it then that this 1% eventually almost wipe out the Geth 300 years later?  Their population hasn't grown back to 1 billion  Are the Geth suppose to know that this weapon that was made 300 years later could not have been made during the MW?  The Quarians are a threat until they flee.  And even then they are still a threat which is why armies typically routed the enemy when they retreat to ensure they didn't survive to fight another day.

Seems to be a lot of meta-gaming here.

. At that point in time they have ceased to be a threat.  It be a sound idea to kill them off so they can't seek retribution, but he geth didn't.  Once they deemed the quarians as harmless they let the, go.

#2808
Steelcan

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remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I have no intention of "converting" you, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument


My argument is simple, if you are the aggressor and get your a** handed to you then there is a lesson in there.

. So the quarians deserved to be exterminated.

#2809
Steelcan

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Papa John0 wrote...

Geth. The Quarians are idiots.

. I'd say the geth were idiots for allying with the Reapers.

#2810
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I do find it kind of funny that you deny the whole "The geth have killed any organics who have tried to contact them" bit. It's...canon but again whatever floats your synthetic loving boat.


You mean like how the person who said also killed the Geth rebellion was inevitable despite Legion later saying otherwise?


Legion never says the Geth didn't slaughter organics that attempted to contact them.

But I'm sure you'll just dismiss that like you have to literally every valid point that has been brought against you.

#2811
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Steelcan wrote...

Papa John0 wrote...

Geth. The Quarians are idiots.

. I'd say the geth were idiots for allying with the Reapers.

This exactly, anyone who joins the reapers is either indoctrinated or stupid. killing the former is just business, killing the latter is a favor to the universe.

#2812
Steelcan

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Papa John0 wrote...

Geth. The Quarians are idiots.

. I'd say the geth were idiots for allying with the Reapers.

This exactly, anyone who joins the reapers is either indoctrinated or stupid. killing the former is just business, killing the latter is a favor to the universe.

. Why not both :devil:

#2813
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...

At that point in time they have ceased to be a threat.  It be a sound idea to kill them off so they can't seek retribution, but he geth didn't.  Once they deemed the quarians as harmless they let the, go.


At what point in time?

Steelcan wrote...

So the quarians deserved to be exterminated.


Nope they don't.  You can keep asking the question and the answer will be the same. 

#2814
Steelcan

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Well as fun as this is, time to turn in for the night.

#2815
Steelcan

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remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

At that point in time they have ceased to be a threat.  It be a sound idea to kill them off so they can't seek retribution, but he geth didn't.  Once they deemed the quarians as harmless they let the, go.


At what point in time?

. When their population and infrastructure is no longer capable of sustaining war.

#2816
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...

Papa John0 wrote...

Geth. The Quarians are idiots.

. I'd say the geth were idiots for allying with the Reapers.


Actually it worked out quite well for them.  If they didn't then they would most certainly have been wiped out by the Quarians.  Doing so allowed them to live long enough for Shep to either make peace or decide.

Potential death tomorrow is always better than certain death today.

#2817
remydat

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Steelcan wrote...
 When their population and infrastructure is no longer capable of sustaining war.


But the Quarians created them.  There is no guarantee they can't create a virus or program that makes the numbers irrelevant.  In fact they did just that 300 years later with roughly the same population.

Are the Geth suppose to know this weapon will take 300 years to create?

#2818
silverexile17s

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Da Don Giovanni wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

It could probably be assumed that the heretics made contact with saren because he knew how to bring back the reapers. That's something repeatedly stated in the game, that they only work with him because he can get them to the reapers.

Why would saren bother contacting the geth in service to Sovereign? Probably because sovereign knew about the heretics and directed Saren to make contact with them for his purposes.

Lock and key, kind of situation. Saren unlocked communication with a small renegade geth faction because sovereign told him how.


Now how did TIM contact Harbinger in ME3 exactly? And survive?

Riddle me that, Riddler.

Well, TIM came into direct contact with Reaper tech in the comic series Mass Effect: Evolution, way back when he was nothing but a human merc called Jack Harper. You ever notice his eyes? That's Reaper tech, implanted in him during the First Contact War through the device called the "Arca Monolith",  in a series of events that kills Saren's brother Desolas, and gives birth to the hate of humans that fuled Saren to find Sovergein, before he knew what Sovergien was. He says that he is able to "hear them" when next to examples of their tech, like the Arca Monolith, the device he was in contact with.
I repeat: TIM has been able to hear the voices of Reapers for 27 years. He's had minute but still potent Reaper tech inside him for 27 years. I'm betting you that since he was never around major devices like the Dead Reaper long enough, he avoided Indoctrination. At least until he started storeing large amounts of Reaper tech in his base, in the area right underneath his observation room, literally right under his chair. So I doubt getting into contact with Harbinger would be all that hard, since he could hear echos of their presance for 27 years. Then after he put MORE implants in himself, I think it would be fairly easy to contact Harbinger indeed.
As to how he mimiced Saren's Citadel takeover and succeded this time.... well, he IS leader of an entire faction of indoctrinated solders. He could have brought a contingant of them with him. Possibly incogneto, since I'd wager a few dozen humans stand out less then an army of geth. As long as the Reaper implants were disguised/concealed in some way.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 06:32 .


#2819
tevix

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@Remy

You know how 17 million quarians turned into a threat later?

They spent 300 years trying to figure out how to take back their world. They were ejected from the galactic society as a whole, they had limited amounts of time, and decided that was the best option.

You can argue that the geth were open to peace at the time shepard shows up in ME3.

So were the quarians. Thinks are pretty peachy after the peace option.

All the geth ever had to do was try to be peaceful and interact with society. They didn't. They attacked when society tried to interact with them. They rejected peace at every turn.

The fact that the geth had the capacity to wipe out the quarians in the MW is a testament to the fact that they could have stopped long before they got to the less than 1% mark.

#2820
silverexile17s

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remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

It is stated clearly by Legion in ME3 that the Geth were built for construction, mining and farming.  Not war.

Actually, they were created as tools of labor, and war.


Legion does not say this.  Once I find where he discusses what they were built for I will post it.

It wasn't said by him. It;s in the Galactic Codex. Very first paragraph.
"The geth are a huminoid race of networked A.I.s. Built 300 years ago by the quarians as tools of labor and war."
This is in the Geth's Codex entry, in ALL THREE GAMES. It's rather hard to believe that you would miss that.

#2821
remydat

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silverexile17s wrote...

It wasn't said by him. It;s in the Galactic Codex. Very first paragraph.
"The geth are a huminoid race of networked A.I.s. Built 300 years ago by the quarians as tools of labor and war."
This is in the Geth's Codex entry, in ALL THREE GAMES. It's rather hard to believe that you would miss that.



I think you missed my point which is that if Legion or the Quarians didn't say it then I trust what they said over a codex.

#2822
silverexile17s

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remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Remy.

It is in the Codex.

"The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s. They were created by the quarians 300 years ago as tools of labor and war."

Oh wait, but Legion did not mention this... So we must throw out this entry as canon...




See around 40 seconds.  Legion says they were built for Construction, Protection, Domestic Services.  We know they were used as miners and farming units.

I am sorry but dialogue in the game trumps codex.  I do believe the writers who everyone seems to hate on because of the endings and star magic are not perfect and thus could have screwed up.  I have never seen anyone say they are used in warfare.  All these different references to the types of jobs they did and at no point does anyone mention warfare.  Does any of the Quarians even say this in ME2 or ME3?

Um... correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't protection include defending the person/people in times of warfare? Doesn't THAT constitute being created for war?
And again, that was NOT changed for the ME3 Codex either. The Codex in ME3 STILL lists them as being made as "tools of labor and war." Labor AND war.
And the fact that "diolouge trumps Codex" when, as I just proved it DIDN'T, is the most redundant thing I have heard. The Codex was written with information direct from the Citadel Archives. It's their cannon history. The only Codex entires that AREN'T accurate are any that revolve around the Reapers pre-ME3. That alomt single-handedly proved that you will ignore hard cannon to prove your point even when it's completely wrong.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 06:42 .


#2823
DeinonSlayer

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My internet is being REALLY slow. Sorry about that.

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

That's very interesting. I had not considered that.

It begs one question for me, though:

Why would the geth even taken the time to consider it, or let the reaper on rannoch at all? Legion goes on this rant in ME2 about how they basically exiled the heretics for doing essentially the same thing. They wanted no part of help from the reapers, or HELPING the reapers. They didn't want their protection, their technology, or their advice.

Did they now? Heretic runtimes are operating on their networks, spying on them. Speculation ahead, but it's possible that after their "god" was killed at the Citadel, some heretics renounced them and were welcomed back into the consensus. Legion was surprised to find that the heretics were capable of keeping secrets. Maybe not all returnees were sincere in having renounced their beliefs (corrupted base process 2.883). Maybe they planted themselves in the main Geth network to aid with the eventual distribution of the heretic virus, like carriers of a biological plague.

Why would the geth plan for war against the reapers then chat it up like buddies with them shortly after.

Doesn't make sense. Somethings missing.

I've since edited the post. What it comes down to is that the Geth valued self-preservation above all else, and thanks to their own actions, they had no allies.

A reaper destroyer shows up (we don't know whether it would be attacked on sight - Sovereign wasn't). The Geth could not be involuntarily seized by it, and had the power to kill this destroyer at any time (the Quarians kill it easily later on despite having lesser armaments. The Geth still have their dreadnought(s) and entire intact fleet at this time). Alone, the destroyer is vulnerable, and depends on the Geth for protection (Geth jamming towers are what make the laser designator necessary). They know they can kill it. It's at their mercy, but they have no friends among organics, and their new guest (like Sovereign before it) has an offer. They construct or adapt a bunker for its use while they mull this offer over, keeping open both the option of accepting the code or killing the reaper. The plan was originally to ride out the invasion as they have always done - in isolation - but then the Quarians attack in reaction to the larger Reaper invasion, and the Geth are backed into a corner. As the dyson sphere itself is targeted, they accept the code, compensating for their compromised capabilities at the cost of free will.

It should be noted that the Geth VI voices no objection to the use of Reaper technology and consistently defends its actions. Unlike Legion, it isn't surprised by the extent of Reaper infection in the Geth server because it let them in. It's entirely possible Legion grew more strongly opposed to the idea while operating independent from the rest of the consensus, following in Shepard's footsteps. Silver noted that Legion's dialogue suggests Legion did not support the Reaper alliance, while the rest of the Geth did.

I fully expect others to come up with alternate explanations, though. This is another one of those areas the writers left deliberately vague. What we know for certain is that there is a Reaper on Rannoch in a highly fortified Geth facility (which would either have to exist previously (awfully convenient, IMO) or be constructed after the Reaper's arrival (prior to or during(?) the Quarian invasion)), Legion severed ties with the Quarians prior to their invasion (pre-Dreadnought dialogue), the Quarians didn't attack until after the Reapers arrived (one of the first messages on the Spectre terminal), the Geth either didn't ask for (or didn't receive) the upgrade until after the Quarians were in the system, and once they did get the upgrade, the Geth blockaded the Tikkun relay, preventing any ships not equipped with stealth systems from leaving.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 30 mars 2013 - 06:48 .


#2824
remydat

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tevix wrote...

@Remy

You know how 17 million quarians turned into a threat later?

They spent 300 years trying to figure out how to take back their world. They were ejected from the galactic society as a whole, they had limited amounts of time, and decided that was the best option.

You can argue that the geth were open to peace at the time shepard shows up in ME3.

So were the quarians. Thinks are pretty peachy after the peace option.

All the geth ever had to do was try to be peaceful and interact with society. They didn't. They attacked when society tried to interact with them. They rejected peace at every turn.

The fact that the geth had the capacity to wipe out the quarians in the MW is a testament to the fact that they could have stopped long before they got to the less than 1% mark.


The point is the Geth don't know how long it will take.  They are fighting the creators of their program.  They are a collective which shares information which means one virus can wipe a sh*t load of them out.  The Geth are not playing the game or reading the story to know that it will take 300 years for a weapon to be developed.

All it would have taken is one scientist to come up with a program, virus or weapon and the numbers don't mean anything.

#2825
silverexile17s

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remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

It wasn't said by him. It;s in the Galactic Codex. Very first paragraph.
"The geth are a huminoid race of networked A.I.s. Built 300 years ago by the quarians as tools of labor and war."
This is in the Geth's Codex entry, in ALL THREE GAMES. It's rather hard to believe that you would miss that.



I think you missed my point which is that if Legion or the Quarians didn't say it then I trust what they said over a codex.

Legion says that they were protectors as well. And isn't war usually done with the intent to protect those that can't fight? Which the geth would do in the role of protectors?
Protectors is the SAME THING as being made for war. Protect quarians in times of war. So, AGAIN, wrong. They ARE tools of labor AND war.