4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Truly Remy's views are law!

We can control Remy, use him to bring humanity to the APEX OF MENTAL GYMNASTICS!

*some time later*

We can control him Silver, I know it will work!!

Well, some say fighting the Reapers is a lost cause too. Shepard still went at it. Besides, I like a chalange and a good debate. Even if the opposing side constantly uses headcannon, and ignores every other source of cannon.

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...

Before that, Tali tells you that the reason Legion broke contact with her was because the geth were having trouble "reaching consenses" and suggests (literally, she makes the suggestion) that the geth might have been in contact with the Reapers long before the quarians launched their attack, and that the geth may have been tempted by the offer long before it was a neccesity. After all, Legion says that the alliance between the geth and Reapers would not have been nessessary, but never states that the geth would have refused it. They supposedly were in debate and tempted before the quarians ever attacked.

Before the scene we see in the link I posted? How on earth would Tali even know when the Geth were contacted by the Reapers? And if Tali really believed that then why would she state that she tried to convince her people to negotiate? Mind you she says this after telling everyone that there is no excuse for siding with the reapers.

That quite honestly, makes zero sense.

If Tali knew that the Geth were thinking of siding with the reapers before the Quarian attack then why would she beg her people to talk to the Geth?

It also contradicts your first claim that the Geth didn't think about the deal with the Reapers and just jumped on it out of desperation. If the Reapers contacted them earlier and they were having trouble reaching consenses, and were in debate about the reaper offer then it means they did think about it before taking the offer.  But I don't think that is what happened. I think it is as Leigon said. The Quarians attacked, the Geth wanted to live, the Reapers extended an offer and the Geth took it. The choice is difficult if you destoryed the Heretics (I never let them live) which means some thought still went into the choice.

Regardless, the only one who was against the actions of their people is Tali.

Leigon's dialouge: "They did not, the creators attacked, the Geth wished to live, the old machines extended an offer." Another "Had the creators not attacked it would had been uneccessary."

Tali's dialouge: "Dammit, I begged them to negotiate rather than attack, I did."

Leigon's dialouge later on the Normandy about the cost of siding with the reapers: "That is evidently an acceptable trade."

You are using the word "evidently" as an expression of remorse or guilt. It is not. Leigon is saying that taking the offer is obviously an acceptable trade. Meaning that he believes that there is no doubt that taking the reaper deal is better than being terminated.

And first off, if Legion thought it was an acceptible trade, it would have defended the reasons. It does NOT.
Did you ever play with the Geth V.I.? The one you get if Legion is either dead, or sold to Cerberus? It defends the geth's actions every step of the way.

Leigon does defend their reasons. Read above.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
The Geth V.I. shows no remorse about the deal. Legion does.

The players skips the dialouge too much. However, both Leigon and the VI don't seem to show remorse(if they can).  The VI is just more "cold" about the whole thing. And also the VI was right, the Quarians attacked because they didn't care.

Legion even directly states that the geth are not better based on "empirical evidence."

Once again, that statement had nothing at all to do with the topic of the Geth joining the Reapers. Nothing at all. It was about Leigon hiding the Reaper upgrades from Shepard.  Neither Leigon nor the VI regret siding with the reapers.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 30 mars 2013 - 06:55 .

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Oh, I'm sure the Geth gave them room and board, space tire rotation, and some friendly directions back to where they came from. <_<

The book tells us they destroyed any organics entering their space on sight. ME1 dialogue corroborates this. The planet description of Haestrom in ME2 and ME3 corroborates this. Shepard calls Legion out in ME2 for not even trying to make peace. The codex entry on Geth culture tells us no organic ship ever returned from their space - and you're quibbling because this last doesn't explicitly state what the others do?

Look like I said before, I will fault the Geth for the first alleged ship that got shot down.  After that, if a country knowingly protects it's space by shooting you down then stop trying to go there.  This would be like a US plane getting shot down over North Korea for violating their airspace and then not getting the hint and continuing to send more planes.

Do we honestly think organics are this f**king stupid?  

Asari:  Hey so what happened to that ship we sent to the Veil?

Salarian:  Never came back.

Turian:  Let's send some more.

Next month

Asari:  Hey so what happened to those other ships we sent to the Veil?

Salarian:  Never came back.

Turian:  Let's send some more.

Repeat for the next 300 years.

So if North Korea shoots down anything entering its airspace, and makes no communications with the outside world, then a couple decades later a North Korean invasion force carves its way down to Seoul before being repulsed and, two years later, still has made no communication to indicate the North Korean government did not sanction the invasion... what is everyone else supposed to think?

I also seem to recall a science team getting carved up on Haestrom. Legion is the only communication attempt (beyond trolling Salarians on the extranet) the Geth have made with organics since the exile. Legion severs contact with the Quarians before they invade, and the Quarian invasion occurred after the Reapers' arrival. There is no indication the Geth ever ceased their isolationist policy prior to the cessation of hostilities above Rannoch.

To highlight your point, look at the final paragrpah in the Secondary Codex entry, "Geth: Culture."
With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.
I would like the underlined to also be noted by @remydat, in how exactally he thinks everyone is supposed to think the geth are innocent, when the above is what Gerrel, the quarians, and the entirity of the wider galaxy thought of them all the way until the end of the Rannoch War.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 06:52 .

[remydat]

Geth VI: (about to show remorse but hears loud explosions): WTF is that.

Geth: Creator Gherel is firing at us despite us being defenseless and Creator Tali telling him to stop.

Geth VI: (feverishly uploading the code): This mofo is getting my my last damn nerve.  F**k it, you started this war we will end it!

Sensible game player: Sounds about right. Creator Gherel should have learned from history.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 06:54 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

To highlight your point, look at the final paragrpah in the Secondary Codex entry, "Geth: Culture."
With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.
I would like the underlined to also be noted by @remydat, in how exactally he thinks everyone is supposed to think the geth are innocent, when the above is what Gerrel, the quarians, and the entirity of the wider galaxy thought of them all the way until the end of the Rannoch War.

I am not sure I have ever used the word innocent in connection with the Geth.  There is a difference between being indifferent when idiots get themselves killed versus claiming the Geth are innocent.

And once again, how many times must organic ships never return before you stop going there?  I am sorry, I have little sympathy for stupid people.  I really don't.

I tell you want, let's decide on a number.  How many times must a ship not return before you think it is time to blame organics for being stupid.  I thought the saying was fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.  So yeah shame on you Geth the first time.  The other 2 to 1,000 times or whatever it is shame on you organics for being stupid.  I take solace in the fact that hopefully you died young enough that you had no children and your stupidity will not continue into the next generation.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 07:01 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

...So it's the organics fault that the Geth killed anyone who tried to contact them?

That's just dumb.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Before that, Tali tells you that the reason Legion broke contact with her was because the geth were having trouble "reaching consenses" and suggests (literally, she makes the suggestion) that the geth might have been in contact with the Reapers long before the quarians launched their attack, and that the geth may have been tempted by the offer long before it was a neccesity. After all, Legion says that the alliance between the geth and Reapers would not have been nessessary, but never states that the geth would have refused it. They supposedly were in debate and tempted before the quarians ever attacked.

Before the scene we see in the link I posted? How on earth would Tali even know when the Geth were contacted by the Reapers? And if Tali really believed that then why would she state that she tried to convince her people to negotiate? Mind you she says this after telling everyone that there is no excuse for siding with the reapers.

That quite honestly, makes zero sense.

If Tali knew that the Geth were thinking of siding with the reapers before the Quarian attack then why would she beg her people to talk to the Geth?

It also contradicts your first claim that the Geth didn't think about the deal with the Reapers and just jumped on it out of desperation. If the Reapers contacted them earlier and they were having trouble reaching consenses, and were in debate about the reaper offer then it means they did think about it before taking the offer.  But I don't think that is what happened. I think it is as Leigon said. The Quarians attacked, the Geth wanted to live, the Reapers extended an offer and the Geth took it.

Regardless, the only one who was against the actions of their people is Tali.

Leigon's dialouge: "They did not, the creators attacked, the Geth wished to live, the old machines extended an offer." Another "Had the creators not attacked it would had been uneccessary."

Tali's dialouge: "Dammit, I begged them to negotiate rather than attack, I did."

Leigon's dialouge later on the Normandy about the cost of siding with the reapers: "That is evidently an acceptable trade."

You are using the word "evidently" as an expression of remorse or guilt. It is not. Leigon is saying that taking the offer is obviously an acceptable trade. Meaning that he believes that there is no doubt that taking the reaper deal is better than being terminated.

And first off, if Legion thought it was an acceptible trade, it would have defended the reasons. It does NOT.
Did you ever play with the Geth V.I.? The one you get if Legion is either dead, or sold to Cerberus? It defends the geth's actions every step of the way.

Leigon does defend their reasons. Read above.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
The Geth V.I. shows no remorse about the deal. Legion does.

The players skips the dialouge too much. However, both Leigon and the VI don't seem to show remorse(if they can).  The VI is just more "cold" about the whole thing. And also the VI was right, the Quarians attacked because they didn't care.

Legion even directly states that the geth are not better based on "empirical evidence."

Once again, that statement had nothing at all to do with the topic of the Geth joining the Reapers. Nothing at all. It was about Leigon hiding the Reaper upgrades from Shepard.  Neither Leigon nor the VI regret siding with the reapers.

First off, When you first Talk to Tali the moment she comes aborad (BEFORE the geth dreadnought mission) she says the last transmission she had with Legion was that the geth were having touble reaching consensis. She tells Shepard that this might be because they were already in talks with the Reapers long before the invasion ever began and were weighing their options. And for the record, she is making this observation in hindsight, based on how the geth have allied with the Reapers so quickly after the attack, so she is considering the possibility that the geth were in contact well before the invasion started. It's only an observation Tali makes from an educated guess that is in turn made in hindsight. She is only JUST now peiceing the trouble reaching consensis with the possibility of Reaper contact.  Hence why she never went to the Admirals: because she is only just now figuring on this.

But still, it makes sence that the Reapers would try and recrut the geth right off the bat. As well as how the geth were able to get in conatct with the Reapers so quickly when they had no way or intent of leaving the Perceus Veil (17 days is relitively short for Reaper assistance to arrive). And as this is BEFORE the dreadnought, this is also BEFORE that scene. So IDK what you were talking about there.
And NO, it DOESN'T contridict thmy statement. Legion says that it "would not have been nessessary." I said the geth jumped on it in deperation without thinking, because in terms of long-term consiquences, they DIDN'T think. They put the now first and formost, and threw away any thought on future ramafacations. Also, it's possible they didn't GET much time to debate on it before the quarians attacked. Or were approched several times.

And AGAIN, no he doesn't. You are the one stretching the sentance. I remind you that the Geth V.I. never says those lines. And AGAIN, when you talk to Legion, he no longer reconizes himself as a member of the geth. He sees himself as individual from the rest of the geth. If he DID agree with it, he would have said "there was no other choice," or "it was nessessary." He DOESN'T. He doesn't support what the geth did.

And again, Wrong. The Geth V.I. says that it was because he didn't think Shepard would be smart enough to apreicate the upgrades. With Legion, he waffles on Shepard's comment - he does NOT deny that he feels ashamed at taking the codes for himself.

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

...So it's the organics fault that the Geth killed anyone who tried to contact them?

That's just dumb.

Nope.  It is not their fault but they are f**king stupid.  Let's call a spade a spade.

It's not my fault if I walk around a crime infest neighborhood with expensive jewelry and get robbed and killed but yeah I was stupid and I am pretty sure most people that read of my unfortunate death in the newspaper will arrive at that conclusion.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Geth VI: (about to show remorse but hears loud explosions): WTF is that.

Geth: Creator Gherel is firing at us despite us being defenseless and Creator Tali telling him to stop.

Geth VI: (feverishly uploading the code): This mofo is getting my my last damn nerve.  F**k it, you started this war we will end it!

Sensible game player: Sounds about right. Creator Gherel should have learned from history.

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

...So it's the organics fault that the Geth killed anyone who tried to contact them?

That's just dumb.

Nope.  It is not their fault but they are f**king stupid.  Let's call a spade a spade.

It's not my fault if I walk around a crime infest neighborhood with expensive jewelry and get robbed and killed but yeah I was stupid and I am pretty sure most people that read of my unfortunate death in the newspaper will arrive at that conclusion.

Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

Sensible person that has NOT seen what Shepard has seen: The geth are monsters! (starts quaking in fear)

LOOK at the above list. WHERE is anything that would tell the avarage person ANYTHING about geth compassion and non-hostility? It's more like being mugged for trying to get your own house back from the thugs that took it from you. They kill everyone that knocks on your door instantly, so of COURSE you are going to bring your own damn gun- they shot everyone that DIDN'T have guns just for knocking on the door of the house THEY took from you, so any sensible person would forgo the "die when you knock" part and just kick the door down and take back your damn house.
THAT'S how the galaxy sees the quarians and geth.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 07:20 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

Sensible person that has NOT seen what Shepard has seen: The geth are monsters! (starts quaking in fear)

LOOK at the above list. WHERE is anything that would tell the avarage person ANYTHING about geth compassion and non-hostility?

I am not sure what your point is here?  Who said anything about Geth compassion?  I think you are confusing my not getting worked up when stupid people get themselves killed with my thinking the Geth are compassionate.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 07:22 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 Because the elderly, children, non-combatant, they all deserve to die for doing nothing.

Nope, they don't deserve to die.  They die because idiots among their people picked a fight it couldn't win.

They DIDN'T KNOW it was a fight they couldn't win.
OMG.... don't tell me that you thought they KNEW the geth could fight back? If they knew what the geth were capable of, what they could do, do you honestly think they would have attacked?
NO. They would have ran for the hills had they known what they were getting into. The entire POINT was that they didn't know what they were in for.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

Sensible person that has NOT seen what Shepard has seen: The geth are monsters! (starts quaking in fear)

LOOK at the above list. WHERE is anything that would tell the avarage person ANYTHING about geth compassion and non-hostility?

I am not sure what your point is here?  Who said anything about Geth compassion?  I think you are confusing my not getting worked up when stupid people get themselves killed with my thinking the Geth are compassionate.

YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. You act like the geth are compassionate and abused. They are not.
And AGAIN, the question here is: WHERE in the above list is anything that tells the avarage person that the geth are not hostile to orgnaics?

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

Sensible person that has NOT seen what Shepard has seen: The geth are monsters! (starts quaking in fear)

LOOK at the above list. WHERE is anything that would tell the avarage person ANYTHING about geth compassion and non-hostility?

I am not sure what your point is here?  Who said anything about Geth compassion?  I think you are confusing my not getting worked up when stupid people get themselves killed with my thinking the Geth are compassionate.

By encouraging the Geth to upload the code and choosing not to tell the Quarians that A) this upload is happening, and the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire (if they're willing to honor a ceasefire) for the first time ever - something no reasonable person has any reason to believe in light of everything in the above list.

Gerrel stands down when he's told these things. The only way the Quarians die is if Shepard chooses to withhold information they have no other way of knowing, fully aware of the consequences of this choice. It's not stupidity. Their leadership simply lacks key information - and the subordinates would know even less than the Admirals. If the code is uploaded without warning and the Geth start tearing them apart, for all they know another Reaper backup came online - in which case ceasing fire wouldn't spare them anyway.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

By encouraging the Geth to upload the code and choosing not to tell the Quarians that A) this upload is happening, and the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire (if they're willing to honor a ceasefire) for the first time ever - something no reasonable person has any reason to believe in light of everything in the above list.

Gerrel stands down when he's told these things. The only way the Quarians die is if Shepard chooses to withhold information they have no other way of knowing, fully aware of the consequences of this choice. It's not stupidity. Their leadership simply lacks key information - and the subordinates would know even less than the Admirals. If the code is uploaded without warning and the Geth start tearing them apart, for all they know another Reaper backup came online - in which case ceasing fire wouldn't spare them anyway.

I am pretty sure Tali is right next to Shepard.  She tells Gherel to stand down.  He refuses.  Whether he was told enough is irrelevant to his stupidity.  He sees the Geth are not firing and in his words are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE and he hears Tali give an order to stand down.  If he still wants to go and kill defenseless enemies then he should probably ask Tali why she gave the order.  So yeah he is still stupid.

The issue isn't whether he trust the Geth.  The issue is whether based on Tali's order he should wonder if maybe just maybe Tali had a good reason to give that order.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. You act like the geth are compassionate and abused. They are not.
And AGAIN, the question here is: WHERE in the above list is anything that tells the avarage person that the geth are not hostile to orgnaics?

No I act like the Quarians are stupid and stubborn because some of their leaders clearly are.

Let's trade, when you admit it was stupid and stubborn for Gherel not to ask Tali why she gave an order to stand down then I will admit the Geth are not compassionate or abused.

Modifié par remydat, 30 mars 2013 - 07:46 .

[tevix]

@Remy

So, now you'll dismiss even in game codex entries? Seriously?

You do realize that codex entries are there to give you information characters don't tell you directly, right? So just because legion doesn't say it doesn't mean it's not canon.

Also it's nice to know that you think anyone who chooses the quarians isn't a sensible person. You DID say earlier a "sensible player" would choose the geth. Thus anyone who doesn't is crazy or unreasonable?

You earlier argued the geth reducing the population of the quarians by over 99% is justified because the geth have reason to believe any living quarian is a threat.

Why is it then that you don't allow that same logic to be applied to the quarians? When you are engaged with an enemy in war, and they stumble, you don't stop shooting. You press your advantage and eliminate your enemy when they are vulnerable. This is what gerrel intended to do. It was sound military strategy.

All through the rannoch mission the geth are actively engaging the quarians. Since gerrel doesn't say the geth have stopped firing until AFTER the reaper is dead, it can be assumed some geth forces are still engaging the quarians even during the fight with the reaper.

The geth are vulnerable, gerrel presses his advantage. Survival of the fittest right? That's what you keep saying, when someone attacks you you have the right to wipe them out. Those are your arguments for justifying the geths actions.

Gerrel receives a baseless stand down order from a young, inexperienced geth-sympathizing admiral that he probably doesn't actually view as a true admiral.

At the same time, I would sort of expect gerrel realistically to respond to the stand-down order with "Why the hell would I do that?! If we don't strike now the geth can counter attack and we could loose the entire fleet!"

He doesnt...which seems ridiculous. Both points are arguable. Both points are true.

To be honest I feel as though IF gerrel did hold his fire and the geth came back and wiped them out anyway you'd just say "Well, that's what the quarians deserve after trying to wipe out the geth again."

[robertthebard]

tevix wrote...

@Robert

You keep ranting about how the novel violates in game lore, but I still fail to see a contradiction.

If saren sent a vessel full of husks into geth space...that doesn't qualify as a peacemaking vessel that went into geth space to make peace. No contradiction.

Did you play ME 1 at all?

In an earlier post you said you will go with the quarian death count in the novel because nothing in game goes against it. No specific number is ever mentioned in game, and that means to you the novel lore is ok.

There is empirical evidence that a crap ton of Quarians died, unless one wants to believe that there were only 20 million or so Quarians even when they had Rannoch?

Nothing in game contadicts the statement in the novel that peacemaking vessels were attacked/destroyed the moment they entered geth space. Based on your earlier logic, since nothing in game contradicts the novel, the novel's lore is ok. No contraditcion.

Actually, there are references to the Council taking no action in the situation.  You get a reference to inaction from Tali.  Taking no action doesn't mean "Well, the Council wouldn't help us wipe out the Geth back then, and instead sent negotiators in for peace talks." does it?  Again, some flavor added to give the novel some spice, but that does contradict what we are told in game.

There is also nothing in game to contradict the novels statement that the council massed a fleet on the geth border, then withdrew it over time when they didn't attack.

So they have this big fleet parked at the edge of the Veil, in the Terminus Systems, and don't do anything at all when their diplomatic envoys are destroyed?  But wait, isn't the reason they won't send their fleet after Saren that it would cause a war with the Terminus System?  So either that's a contradiction, or the Terminus System people didn't notice the last time the Council parked a fleet in their space.

You must remember that not everything is canon for all time. For example, in ME1, the unusual strength that sovereign displays is NOT canon. Hudson came forward and said his power in cutscenes was more than they intended. It is possible to retcon something. It is even possible to retcon it without an in-game statement.

Yet they didn't retcon that power out in any dialog concerning the battle with Sovereign anywhere it's mentioned for the rest of the series.  An ingame retcon of events is, you guessed it, in game.  It is still a retcon, and depending on what it is, would still be considered bad by most people.  Look at Emily Wong's death. People were up in arms over that, and it's not even a retcon, it's just an off camera death on Twitter.  That was a minor character with 2 missions in ME 1, and an email in ME 2.

To me, if it changes what's presented in game, then it's a contradiction of game lore, and therefore, invalid.  No where in game is there any mention on the numbers of Quarians killed in the MW.  This means, to me, that a number of dead cannot change the game, unless, of course, the novel had said that the Geth completely wiped them out.  All we have from in game is that they were decimated.  By the very literal definition of the word, that's what we end up with taking numbers from the novel.  Therefore, it agrees with in game lore.  However, there's a difference between save the Council/let the Council die, both options in game, and "The Council took no action against the Geth", referenced in game, and "The Council reached out to the Geth in order to try to make peace", only referenced in a novel, with nothing given in game to support it.  If I'm picking between the two, then the former wins out, because not only is it presented in game, but it's presented in game by a Quarian. 

If the Council had refused to help them, which it's evident that they did, since the Quarians used to have an Ambassador on the Citadel, also referenced in game, but instead sent an envoy to make peace, you'd think the Quarians would note that.  You'd think they'd be plenty resentful of the fact that the Council kicked them off the Citadel for creating the Geth and then tried to make nice with the Geth afterwards.  Does this spell out the contradiction of in game lore clearly enough for you?  This is why sources outside of game lore are bad when trying to define events in game.  Not everyone gets these other sources, comic books, novels, etc.  Hell this is why some people don't want an ME movie, even though I'm not one of those.  I have no objection to movies, comics, or novels based on the universe, until they are used to try to define, or alter in game lore.  They are external, and entertaining, but the moment you have to change something presented in game to support something that happens then they become defunct.  Take a look at Mr. Gaider's novels based on the DA series.  He openly states that despite using characters from the game, they are not to be considered canon for the game.  There should be a disclaimer like that from the authors of the novels for this series too.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

By encouraging the Geth to upload the code and choosing not to tell the Quarians that A) this upload is happening, and the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire (if they're willing to honor a ceasefire) for the first time ever - something no reasonable person has any reason to believe in light of everything in the above list.

Gerrel stands down when he's told these things. The only way the Quarians die is if Shepard chooses to withhold information they have no other way of knowing, fully aware of the consequences of this choice. It's not stupidity. Their leadership simply lacks key information - and the subordinates would know even less than the Admirals. If the code is uploaded without warning and the Geth start tearing them apart, for all they know another Reaper backup came online - in which case ceasing fire wouldn't spare them anyway.

I am pretty sure Tali is right next to Shepard.  She tells Gherel to stand down.  He refuses.  Whether he was told enough is irrelevant to his stupidity.  He sees the Geth are not firing and in his words are COMPLETELY VULNERABLE and he hears Tali give an order to stand down.  If he still wants to go and kill defenseless enemies then he should probably ask Tali why she gave the order.  So yeah he is still stupid.

The issue isn't whether he trust the Geth.  The issue is whether based on Tali's order he should wonder if maybe just maybe Tali had a good reason to give that order.

Tali says "Break off your attack" without stating ANY reason to stop. If the Reapers suddenly became completely venerable, and Shepard suddenly said "break off the attack" without any further explination, would YOU listen?

The geth have been classed as non-ngotiable and organic-hostile for 300 years, and were believed to be that way LONG BEFORE the Reaper alliance. When you are dealing with an enemy that has done nothing but show you they seemingly have NO INTEREST in negotiation, standing down for no reason would seem to be a retarded move. So NO, he is NOT stupid. He simply has no reason to believe that this enemy that has always killed every peaceful negotiation party is suddenly going to stand down. It's not until Shepard explains the situation to him that Gerrel DOES stand down.
Point of this: If you want someone to stop, it helps to GIVE THEM ACTUAL REASON TO (like Shepard does), instead of standing around twittling your thumbs (Raan) or giving a half-hearted "stop" (Tali).

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

YOU DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. You act like the geth are compassionate and abused. They are not.
And AGAIN, the question here is: WHERE in the above list is anything that tells the avarage person that the geth are not hostile to orgnaics?

No I act like the Quarians are stupid and stubborn because some of their leaders clearly are.

Let's trade, when you admit it was stupid and stubborn for Gherel not to ask Tali why she gave an order to stand down then I will admit the Geth are not compassionate or abused.

AGAIN, WRONG. The quarians, AGAIN, have no reason to trust the geth based on the timeline I showed, which you seem to have conviently left out. The answer to your question was already stated: Gerrel has seen the geth kill everyone that tried to talk to them before. He has evry logical reason to believe that they will therefore NEVER noegtiate, otherwise they would have already done so at least once in the past 300 years. Therefore, based on the fact that the geth have shown nothing but hostility to them, Gerrel believes it's impossible that the geth are anything but enemies. Therefore, any order to stop would sound absolutly retarded.

And AGAIN, you DODGED MY QUESTION. I will list it again.
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

Where in this list of geth actions is ANYTHING showing the geth being organic-friendly? WHAT on this list would make the galaxy at large believe the geth to be anything but hostile?
And you DIDN'T answer the question again.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 mars 2013 - 09:30 .

[tevix]

@Robert

Tali in ME1 says that the geth have killed anyone who tried to make contact with them. I posted where to find evidence of it earlier. I, nor she, ever said it was the COUNCIL who sent ambassadors. We don't know who these people are.

Even if it was the council, how does that break in-game lore? Tali's implication is that the council took no action AGAINST the geth. There's nothing lore-breaking about decades or even centuries later attempting to make peaceful contact. There's also nothing lore-breaking about not responding with force when those attempts fail. The council doesn't help when the geth outright attack human colonies, no rreason to say they would start a war over a lost ambassador.

Still no contradiction. As it is in game-lore actually AGREES with the novel.

As for the argument that the sovereign ret-con doesn't count because it wasn't said in game...what? You don't overrule the writing team on their own work.

Writer: Yeah, that wasn't actually supposed to be like that, sorry. That's not right.
You: Where is it said in game?
Writer: Well...nowher, I'm telling you right now
You: Nope sorry, not said in game its not canon
Writer: It's my work...I'm telling you that that wasn't canon.
You: No, nuh uh, didn't see it in game it's not canon. You're wrong.
Writer: It's my work! I decide what's canon and whats not!
You: Nooope, not listening...
Writer: .....WTF??

Literally, you and remy both are THAT bad. It's absolutely ludicrous.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Actually it's pretty hilarious.

Just saying.

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 When their population and infrastructure is no longer capable of sustaining war.

But the Quarians created them.  There is no guarantee they can't create a virus or program that makes the numbers irrelevant.  In fact they did just that 300 years later with roughly the same population.

Are the Geth suppose to know this weapon will take 300 years to create?

. So we should just kill the Turians, Krogan, Asari, Salarians, batarians etc.. Because they might make a weapon in the future that could wipe out humanity.  Rachni queen should die, well I did kill her, and the genophage should be sabotaged, right?

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Papa John0 wrote...

Geth. The Quarians are idiots.

. I'd say the geth were idiots for allying with the Reapers.

Actually it worked out quite well for them.  If they didn't then they would most certainly have been wiped out by the Quarians.  Doing so allowed them to live long enough for Shep to either make peace or decide.

Potential death tomorrow is always better than certain death today.

.  So it's ok for them to turn traitor on the galaxy:wizard:

[Star fury]

silverexile17s wrote...
AGAIN, WRONG. The quarians, AGAIN, have no reason to trust the geth based on the timeline I showed, which you seem to have conviently left out. The answer to your question was already stated: Gerrel has seen the geth kill everyone that tried to talk to them before. He has evry logical reason to believe that they will therefore NEVER noegtiate, otherwise they would have already done so at least once in the past 300 years. Therefore, based on the fact that the geth have shown nothing but hostility to them, Gerrel believes it's impossible that the geth are anything but enemies. Therefore, any order to stop would sound absolutly retarded.

And AGAIN, you DODGED MY QUESTION. I will list it again.
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

Where in this list of geth actions is ANYTHING showing the geth being organic-friendly? WHAT on this list would make the galaxy at large believe the geth to be anything but hostile?
And you DIDN'T answer the question again.

You are right about Geth actions in ME1. But in ME2 Bioware made a U-turn while describing Geth - we see Legion, who is absolutely honest and loyal to Shepard. I did dislike Geth remembering all fighting in the first game and sent him to death in Suicide mission. But judging Legion's actions it's hard not to trust him.

I still have issues with showing Geth from ME1 as heretics who bowed to "Old Machines". We see same trope with Geth in ME3, now they all side with Reapers thanks to quarian threat. I say lazy.

Gameplay reasons, we had to fight something except Reapers, that's why we got unbelievably strong Cerberus and Geth enslaved by Reapers.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

So, now you'll dismiss even in game codex entries? Seriously?

You do realize that codex entries are there to give you information characters don't tell you directly, right? So just because legion doesn't say it doesn't mean it's not canon.

Also it's nice to know that you think anyone who chooses the quarians isn't a sensible person. You DID say earlier a "sensible player" would choose the geth. Thus anyone who doesn't is crazy or unreasonable?

You earlier argued the geth reducing the population of the quarians by over 99% is justified because the geth have reason to believe any living quarian is a threat.

Why is it then that you don't allow that same logic to be applied to the quarians? When you are engaged with an enemy in war, and they stumble, you don't stop shooting. You press your advantage and eliminate your enemy when they are vulnerable. This is what gerrel intended to do. It was sound military strategy.

All through the rannoch mission the geth are actively engaging the quarians. Since gerrel doesn't say the geth have stopped firing until AFTER the reaper is dead, it can be assumed some geth forces are still engaging the quarians even during the fight with the reaper.

The geth are vulnerable, gerrel presses his advantage. Survival of the fittest right? That's what you keep saying, when someone attacks you you have the right to wipe them out. Those are your arguments for justifying the geths actions.

Gerrel receives a baseless stand down order from a young, inexperienced geth-sympathizing admiral that he probably doesn't actually view as a true admiral.

At the same time, I would sort of expect gerrel realistically to respond to the stand-down order with "Why the hell would I do that?! If we don't strike now the geth can counter attack and we could loose the entire fleet!"

He doesnt...which seems ridiculous. Both points are arguable. Both points are true.

To be honest I feel as though IF gerrel did hold his fire and the geth came back and wiped them out anyway you'd just say "Well, that's what the quarians deserve after trying to wipe out the geth again."

Does it matter if I trust what characters say in-game over codex entries?  I already gave an answer assuming the story was true so what I believe is irrelevant.  You guys will cry about anything.

Gherel is free to ignore the order just like Geth VI is free to wipe out the Quarians.  All I am saying is defending one and chastising the other is hypocrisy.  They are both douchebags to me which is why my position is consistent.  The only difference is the game makes Gherel the douchebag that fires on a defenseless enemy and Geth VI is the douchebag who then says well screw it we will end this war.  The issue is you trying to defend Gherel while hating Geth VI when both are perfectly fine with exterminating the other.

remydat wrote...

Geth VI: (about to show remorse but hears loud explosions): WTF is that.

Geth: Creator Gherel is firing at us despite us being defenseless and Creator Tali telling him to stop.

Geth VI: (feverishly uploading the code): This mofo is getting my my last damn nerve.  F**k it, you started this war we will end it!

Sensible game player: Sounds about right. Creator Gherel should have learned from history.

This was a joke Tevix.  A joke.  You getting all self righteous about a joke is ridiculous.  My saying sensible game player here is not saying a sensible game player should pick the Geth.  It is saying a sensible game player would understand that Geth VI's call to fire back at the Quarians who are firing at them including when they are defenseless and an Admiral tells them to stand down is a perfectly reasonable position for any person in a war to take.  Doesn't mean you have to side with them.  Just means pretending like Geth VI owes the Quarians anything when Gherel has continued to fire on them is silly.

So let me say again so it is clearly Gherel and Geth VI are both douchebags.  I see no logical reason to pretend that Gherel is somehow better when he is firing on defenseless Geth after an order to stand down and Geth VI is someone an a**hole for returning fire.