4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Robert

Nope, not answering.

You tell me to leave my "personal attacks" behind then twice accuse me of throwing a temper tantrum.

Not conversing with you after that.

Right, so the correct answer is:  They didn't change anything.

Incorrect. Sovergien was displayed as having lasers on every limb, and sheilds that could not be broken by the entire Alliance fleet.
In ME3, this is CHANGED. Reapers are displayed as having a single spinal-mounted beam, and as being vunerable to a small fleet of crusiers, or combined dreadnought-crusier tactics. "The Battle of Palaven" Codex entry lists the turians taking down multiple Sovergien-class capital ships with clever tactics and fleet attacks. Hell, even the batarians were taking down Reapers.
See the difference between the current Reapers and Sovergien?
Sovergien was protrayed as invunerable and invincible. Modern Reapers are displayed as simply "hard to kill" and are no longer as invunerable as Sovergien was protrayed.
So, WRONG, there IS a drastic change in how they were protrayed.

Now see, this is how a discussion about in game things should be settled, with lore from the game.  Yes, I am aware of the codex entry, in fact, I just read it tonight after going to Menae.  There is no novel I have to go buy, there is no fansite I have to go to.  I can load up my last save, open the codex, and see the entry.  All the fluff to the discussion is moot.  The point that I've been trying to make, which seems to get under some people's skin, is that the game defines what is game lore, not a novel, not a writer on a website, even if it is BSN.  Bring me codex entries, or at least that they exist, and I can go find it myself in game, I have three saves that have gone all the way through the trilogy from beginning to end.  I can read anything that I'm that interested in knowing from the codex entries, instead of telling me that , if I want to know the real story to the game, I have to go buy some novels.

But yet, there are events that have been cannonized in-game.
ME2: Cerberus' attack on the quarian flotila in an attempt to "capture or control a young human biotic," as told by Tali herself after you recrute her from Haestrom. This is the plotline of Mass Effect: Ascencion, cannonzed in-game by Tali, Prazza, and then by Kar'Donna vas Ryya's mention of "the Acencion project fiasco with Cerberus."
ME3: Kai Leng's injured legs, Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders, Paul Grasyon's implantation with Reaper tech, and Sanders' job at Grissom Acadamy are all things that took place in Mass Effect: Retribution, nearly a full year before the scripts for ME3 were written up.
ME3: Kahlee Sanders meeting Anderson 20 years ago, and being "there when Saren bertrayed him" is cannon events of Mass Effect: Revelation's plotline.
ME3: Omega DLC: An entire set of Codex entries are created that cannonize the events of the Mass Effect: Invasion comics.
Thus far, the ONLY book that wasn't cannon was Mass Effect: Deception, which was the ONLY book that wasn't licenced by the writers of the game. The above events were all based/grounded in the books. Also, can't you just borrow the book from the local library? It works for me - read whatever I want without paying a dime. The only problem would be if you don't have the desire to read through the books - between you and me, I CAN understand the frsutration in having to read books to get esscential lore, since you often ask yourself "if this is important to the story, why do I have to read it seperate?" But it doesn't change that it's licenced by the company and writers as being offical cannon.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 mars 2013 - 03:49 .

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Robert

I don't think I understand.

"What did bioware change in the game due to that statement."

I don't think I understand what your talking about.

Ok, this was your little tantrum earlier:

Writer: Yeah, that wasn't actually supposed to be like that, sorry. That's not right.
You: Where is it said in game?
Writer: Well...nowher, I'm telling you right now
You: Nope sorry, not said in game its not canon
Writer: It's my work...I'm telling you that that wasn't canon.
You: No, nuh uh, didn't see it in game it's not canon. You're wrong.
Writer: It's my work! I decide what's canon and whats not!
You: Nooope, not listening...
Writer: .....WTF??

I want to know what was changed when this writer posted that Sovereign was stronger than he was supposed to be in cutscenes(I believe that's what you said, not going back several pages to look though).  I mean, you are seriously ready to have a stroke over whether or not the guy said it, or maybe whether I believe he said it, or maybe that it's somehow important to the dialog, so I want to know what changed in the games because of it.  Did they edit out the ship names dialog you can have with the reporter if you don't punch her?  Did Hackett quit saying that the battle with Sovereign took everything they had, you know, things like that.  Because frankly, if the answer is nothing, what's the point of a) bringing it up, and holding your breath in the aisle at WalMart, stomping your feet and screaming until somebody tells you he said it?

Alright. First off, your snide comments do nothing to encourage a discussion, so check the attitude at the door if you plan to have a debate, since you are going off an a tangent just as bad as what you accuse him of doing. He responded that way because you refuse to acknowledge proven cannon as real, simply because it wasn't shown in-game, and that in-game isn't the be-all know-all you claim it to be, since even that CAN and HAS been retconned.

And the point was that he admitted that he portrayed Sovergien as more powerful then it was actually supposed to be. Just look at the differences in ME1 and ME3.
Sovergien = lasers on every limb, and zero vuneribility.
ME3 Reapers = single spine-mounted laser, and listed as vunerable to combined effort of several crusiers.
Sovergien was portrayed with too much power for a single Reaper. They toned it down for ME3. THAT'S the point.

You are correct, and the bolded, underlined nested quote is written by tevix, here. If he doesn't want to be addressed in the manner I addressed him, then perhaps he should evaluate the way he addresses me.  I will not lose any sleep thinking that he may cry himself to sleep because I typed a message here to him in a harsh manner after the way he posted to me.

[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Robert

I don't think I understand.

"What did bioware change in the game due to that statement."

I don't think I understand what your talking about.

Ok, this was your little tantrum earlier:

Writer: Yeah, that wasn't actually supposed to be like that, sorry. That's not right.
You: Where is it said in game?
Writer: Well...nowher, I'm telling you right now
You: Nope sorry, not said in game its not canon
Writer: It's my work...I'm telling you that that wasn't canon.
You: No, nuh uh, didn't see it in game it's not canon. You're wrong.
Writer: It's my work! I decide what's canon and whats not!
You: Nooope, not listening...
Writer: .....WTF??

I want to know what was changed when this writer posted that Sovereign was stronger than he was supposed to be in cutscenes(I believe that's what you said, not going back several pages to look though).  I mean, you are seriously ready to have a stroke over whether or not the guy said it, or maybe whether I believe he said it, or maybe that it's somehow important to the dialog, so I want to know what changed in the games because of it.  Did they edit out the ship names dialog you can have with the reporter if you don't punch her?  Did Hackett quit saying that the battle with Sovereign took everything they had, you know, things like that.  Because frankly, if the answer is nothing, what's the point of a) bringing it up, and holding your breath in the aisle at WalMart, stomping your feet and screaming until somebody tells you he said it?

Alright. First off, your snide comments do nothing to encourage a discussion, so check the attitude at the door if you plan to have a debate, since you are going off an a tangent just as bad as what you accuse him of doing. He responded that way because you refuse to acknowledge proven cannon as real, simply because it wasn't shown in-game, and that in-game isn't the be-all know-all you claim it to be, since even that CAN and HAS been retconned.

And the point was that he admitted that he portrayed Sovergien as more powerful then it was actually supposed to be. Just look at the differences in ME1 and ME3.
Sovergien = lasers on every limb, and zero vuneribility.
ME3 Reapers = single spine-mounted laser, and listed as vunerable to combined effort of several crusiers.
Sovergien was portrayed with too much power for a single Reaper. They toned it down for ME3. THAT'S the point.

You are correct, and the bolded, underlined nested quote is written by tevix, here. If he doesn't want to be addressed in the manner I addressed him, then perhaps he should evaluate the way he addresses me.  I will not lose any sleep thinking that he may cry himself to sleep because I typed a message here to him in a harsh manner after the way he posted to me.

Regardless, it's no way to have a debate. Look at me and @remydat. I don't think my returning of his snide comments is having any positive effect, is it?
And again, the books and comics were offically licensed by the writers. They are cannon. Unless they release statements that tell you to disregard it as cannon, there isn't choice but to regard it as cannon. Especally since plot points of Revelation, Ascencion, Retribution, and Invasion have been cannonized by statements and entries of ME2 & ME3.

[tevix]

@Robert

I would have provided you with the same information if you hadn't told me to withold personal attacks while flinging personal attacks of your own.

Frankly, though, there's no point in discussing something with someone who says that he won't believe a writer about his own work if it's not stated in game. Novels, twitter, BSN...it doesn't matter. If the creator of a work says it's official, it's offical. You don't get to pick and choose.

Since you do, discussion with you is pointless.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The point is that REGARDLESS of your rep, anyone that suddenly yells, "Spare the Reapers" for no reason is going to be ignored - LOL, that is NOT a hard hurdle to get over.
And in Shepard's case, I AGAIN REMIND you that when the Commander speaks to Gerrel, he DOES offer reasons to listen, which Gerrel acknowledged. UNLIKE Tali, Shepard gave a reason to stand down.
Tali = limp "stop." No one in their right mind would listen to that while fighting an avowed enemy.
Shepard = real reason and explination for stopping. Actual cause to stand down now.
This ISN'T rocked science.
So, wrong. All you did was validate why you are prejudiced for the geth.

And being the "Hero of the Galaxy" didn't save you from cowtowing to the Catalyst's arbatrary choices, now did it? You still either gave up your morals, or lost everything.
"I am Shepard" is NOT valid reason. Being Shepard doesn't instantly translate as "I am the godsend that is always right." ME2 went out of the way to illistrate that exact thing is NOT true. Shepard is just as falible as any other human being.
And AGAIN, what the hell are you babbling about? Last I checked, Gerrel DID consider that enough when he stands down on Shepard's order. What are you yelping about there?
And AGAIN, Tali says NOTHING but "Break off your attack." No reasoning whatsoever. No mention of Shepard. No mention of geth stopping. NOTHING AT ALL.
And IDK if you realized it, but being Shepard wasn't enough for ANY OTHER RACE to get behind you. It wasn't good enough for Wrex/Wreve, who holds the entire war effort hostage for a genophage cure. It wasn't good enough for the Asari and Salarians, who need to see the Citadel attacked by Cerberus to take the war seriously. It wasn't enough for the turians to martch off to war with you right off the bat. It wasn't good enough for the Alliance when you told them about the Collectors. So again, stop with the Shepard Worship. And "fall in line or die?" Sounds like you fit right in with Cerberus, Mr. Ruthless Renagade.

Gherel could have asked for more detail.  He doesn't and thus in accordance with the rules the OP established he dies.

The Turians fall in line once I deliver the Krogan and the Krogan save their a**.  The Krogan fall in line once I deliver the Genophage cure.  The Salarians fall in line once I save the Councillor.  In each of these scenarios, I save their a** and they commit to the War.  The Quarians should fall in line once I stop the Geth from wiping the floor with them.  Gherel instead refuses to listen to Tali who he knows is on the mission with me and thus speaks for me.  The Quarians die.

So once again, all you do is prove my point.  All the other races have the common sense to fall in line once I save their a**.  Gherel after I save the Quarians from death by disabling the Dreadnought refuses to fall in line when I tell him the threat is over risking my and Tali's life.  Then on Rannoch, once I save the Quarians from death a second time, he once again refuses to fall in line which is why the Quarians die.  This is just further proof of the Quarians historically have stupid f**king leaders that get their people killed.

Now if you have examples of these other races not listening to Shepard once he saves their a** in ME3 then let me know. 

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 04:10 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Regardless, it's no way to have a debate. Look at me and @remydat. I don't think my returning of his snide comments is having any positive effect, is it?
And again, the books and comics were offically licensed by the writers. They are cannon. Unless they release statements that tell you to disregard it as cannon, there isn't choice but to regard it as cannon. Especally since plot points of Revelation, Ascencion, Retribution, and Invasion have been cannonized by statements and entries of ME2 & ME3.

Sorry what snide comments have I made at you?  Find where I have personally insulted you?  You have called me a ****** and a smart a** ie launched personal attacks at me just because I made jokes about fictional characters and events. 

You get all emotional and launch personal attacks as if the Quarians are your family.  If you can't take a joke about fictional characters and fictional events then you should probably log off the interent. 

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Robert

I would have provided you with the same information if you hadn't told me to withold personal attacks while flinging personal attacks of your own.

Frankly, though, there's no point in discussing something with someone who says that he won't believe a writer about his own work if it's not stated in game. Novels, twitter, BSN...it doesn't matter. If the creator of a work says it's official, it's offical. You don't get to pick and choose.

Since you do, discussion with you is pointless.

Lol, only in the delusional world of the internet can a dude personally attack someone and then presume to take the moral high ground when someone responds to said personally attack with one of his own.

Youngbloods, what was that you said again.

Don't start no sh*t won't be no sh*t.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Yet, you disregard in-game codex entries. And again, you are the one that refused to answer multiple questions, or the refutes that proved YOUR supposed answers as biased.
And stop with the condesending BS. You don't act like that unless you intend to have it returned to you. Besides, you yourself show innability to move on from the topic, so please don't call the kettle black. At least TRY to be civil.

I have moved on from the topic as I am not discussing it anymore.  I am discussing you continuing to cry about it.  I want to see how long you will continue to repeat yourself on a topic that the other person is not even debating any longer.

And once again, an answer was provided regarding my thoughts if ME Revelations was correct.  It was provided several pages ago.  The question was answered.

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote...

But yet, there are events that have been cannonized in-game.
ME2: Cerberus' attack on the quarian flotila in an attempt to "capture or control a young human biotic," as told by Tali herself after you recrute her from Haestrom. This is the plotline of Mass Effect: Ascencion, cannonzed in-game by Tali, Prazza, and then by Kar'Donna vas Ryya's mention of "the Acencion project fiasco with Cerberus."
ME3: Kai Leng's injured legs, Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders, Paul Grasyon's implantation with Reaper tech, and Sanders' job at Grissom Acadamy are all things that took place in Mass Effect: Retribution, nearly a full year before the scripts for ME3 were written up.
ME3: Kahlee Sanders meeting Anderson 20 years ago, and being "there when Saren bertrayed him" is cannon events of Mass Effect: Revelation's plotline.
ME3: Omega DLC: An entire set of Codex entries are created that cannonize the events of the Mass Effect: Invasion comics.
Thus far, the ONLY book that wasn't cannon was Mass Effect: Deception, which was the ONLY book that wasn't licenced by the writers of the game.

Snipped to clean up nested quotes.

Items that do make it into the game, such as Cerberus attacking the Quarian fleet are now in game lore.  Items that don't, are not.  Of course, I went through the last post that listed some of these, or maybe all of them, and indicated the ones that are referenced in game.  This does not mean that every item in the novel made it to the game, or even got mentioned.  Without ever reading the novel, I knew that some time in the two years that Shepard was down, Cerberus attacked the Quarians.  There were no particulars, but I knew it, because in ME 2, when I go on the very first mission, and meet Tali and her squad, they tell me.

Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders is brought up first by her, and then by Anderson in ME 3.  This, however, started well before Shepard was even in the military.  She says it's been 20 some years on the Grissom Academy station.  I didn't need to read a book to know it, it's presented in game.

I knew Kai Leng had messed up legs because Anderson told me, it's in game, I don't have to buy a book.  Some of the items you list still don't apply to me, I don't care for Aria, and don't do her side quests on the Citadel in ME 3, I'm sure not going to buy a DLC dedicated to her.  I won't be raising as much of a fuss about DLC as I do with novels, but really a lot of the things that come up that raise my hackles are things that conflict what I'm led to believe by the game, and I've gone over that list enough.  The reason I won't have the same reaction would be the same reason I wouldn't react if I didn't own ME 1, or ME 2 and somebody referenced it.  It's actually in the game, I just don't own that part of the game.

I can enjoy discussion on the game just fine, so long as the discussion of lore is taken from the game.  There are in game references to Kahlee and Anderson, for example.  I don't know, and don't need to know the specifics.  I know that they knew each other when Saren betrayed Anderson, and that Anderson saved her life.  I don't need to know, for example, that Kai Leng likes cereal, even though I find that I do know it, damn BSN...  The issue here, for me, is that this is a discussion about ME 3.  It is not a discussion about Ascension, or the other novels/comics, etc.  I'm not going to run out and buy a book or three to fill in gaps in lore for the game.  The important bits are written into the game.

[tevix]

@Remy

Robert asked me a question, while asking me to respond without "personal attacks".

I politely informed him I didn't understand his question.

He answered with two personal attacks.

No further conversation warranted.

Verify your information before jumping on someone's bandwagon, please.

[remydat]

Just playing ME3 again and the first time I see Tali again is so touching and funny when she leaves and is like "oh yeah it was still totally worth it."

Oh yeah and Gherel is still a f**king idiot. I am disabling the Dreadnought and Tali notes how Gherel in his infinite wisdom sent 6 frigates up against it and lost all 6 with just a tiny hole to show for it. Apparently Gherel is only adept at killing defenseless Geth, lol.

Tali: Only Koris opposed the war with me and he was right. We could lose the whole fleet.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 04:18 .

[robertthebard]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Robert asked me a question, while asking me to respond without "personal attacks".

I politely informed him I didn't understand his question.

He answered with two personal attacks.

No further conversation warranted.

Verify your information before jumping on someone's bandwagon, please.

Yes, verifying information is important.  So let's do some verifying:

Who posted this?

tevix wrote...

@Robert

Tali in ME1 says that the geth have killed anyone who tried to make contact with them. I posted where to find evidence of it earlier. I, nor she, ever said it was the COUNCIL who sent ambassadors. We don't know who these people are.

Even if it was the council, how does that break in-game lore? Tali's implication is that the council took no action AGAINST the geth. There's nothing lore-breaking about decades or even centuries later attempting to make peaceful contact. There's also nothing lore-breaking about not responding with force when those attempts fail. The council doesn't help when the geth outright attack human colonies, no rreason to say they would start a war over a lost ambassador.

Still no contradiction. As it is in game-lore actually AGREES with the novel.

As for the argument that the sovereign ret-con doesn't count because it wasn't said in game...what? You don't overrule the writing team on their own work.

Writer: Yeah, that wasn't actually supposed to be like that, sorry. That's not right.
You: Where is it said in game?
Writer: Well...nowher, I'm telling you right now
You: Nope sorry, not said in game its not canon
Writer: It's my work...I'm telling you that that wasn't canon.
You: No, nuh uh, didn't see it in game it's not canon. You're wrong.
Writer: It's my work! I decide what's canon and whats not!
You: Nooope, not listening...
Writer: .....WTF??

Literally, you and remy both are THAT bad. It's absolutely ludicrous.

Did I, to borrow a phrase from another poster, fabricate this?  Or, is it actually posted 
here?  So let me understand you, it's fine for you to try to be snide, and people are just supposed to overlook it?  Notice, I said try to be snide.  Then, when I asked my question initially in this post

robertthebard wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

All you've proven is that you are pulling a double standard to defend your point. Throwing out in game codex entries because a character doesn't say it is just senseless. There's nothing more to say. If you look at a game and say "legion didn't say it, it's not canon, don't care if it's in the codex" you're unreasonable.

@Robert

You're being as ridculous, stubborn, and dismissive and are double talking just like remy. Your rant did nothing to prove contradiction between the novels and in game lore.

The point of writing a novel is to expand on the story. It's still canon. The only novel that had contradictions to in-game lore was deception, and that was admitted by BW to not be canon because of its flaws.

You both are dismissing factual canon because it doesn't fit your arguments.

There's no sense coming to a forum to debate when you won't acknowledge facts.

Since you've both managed to make yourselves look completely ridiculous and blow your credibility to dust I consider my mission accomplished.

Cool, but let's take the statement from the author that you went on and on about in the last post I quoted.  Now, I have one simple question for you:  What did BioWare change in the game due to that statement?  I don't need your personal attacks.  I just need an answer to that simple question.  Assuming you can provide that, we'll see where we go.

Be sure to check out the tone of the post I quoted to ask my question, and let's look and see if there are no personal attacks in there, ok?  As you say, verifying facts is important.  If you don't want people to address you in a snide manner, perhaps you should watch your tone, and please, in a printed media, if you're going to try to lie about it later, at least ninja edit your posts.  Rest assured, I provided links to the posts so that people that are curious can, if they want, click it and see I didn't edit it to say what I wanted it to say.

Modifié par robertthebard, 31 mars 2013 - 04:26 .

[tevix]

@Remy

To be fair, she/xen said that gerrel tried a frontal assault, and LOST 6 frigates.

They didn't say he sent only 6 frigates against the dreadnought.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

Robert asked me a question, while asking me to respond without "personal attacks".

I politely informed him I didn't understand his question.

He answered with two personal attacks.

No further conversation warranted.

Verify your information before jumping on someone's bandwagon, please.

Robert asked you to not respond with personal attacks because in earlier posts you had launched personal attacks.  See below for the posts.  So sorry, I was following along.  You and Silver have a penchant of making personal attacks instead of just sticking to debating the topic.  I honestly don't care as I consider it a victory when the opponent has to get personal.  However, you then trying to take the moral high ground and say you will not discuss any longer because of Robert personal attacks is truly amusing.

tevix wrote...

@Robert

Literally, you and remy both are THAT bad. It's absolutely ludicrous.

tevix wrote...

@ Robert

You're being as ridculous, stubborn, and dismissive and are double talking just like remy. Your rant did nothing to prove contradiction between the novels and in game lore.

Since you've both managed to make yourselves look completely ridiculous and blow your credibility to dust I consider my mission accomplished.

Emotional much?

[tevix]

@Robert

You failed to consider something in the very post you quoted.

You asked me to respond without personal attacks. I did. Your next response included more personal attacks.

You can either declare war, or ask for a truce. Not both. And since you are continuing to be snide and selective in your responses to me, I will assume you would prefer to fight.

I do not.

[tevix]

@Remy

I already responded to that point, four times now I think.

Robert asked me to respond peacefully. I did. His response contained more attacks.

I followed through on his request, and he attacked me anyway. And now you are too.

Hmmm...so I stood down as requested, and was still attacked?

Fascinating.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. The point is that REGARDLESS of your rep, anyone that suddenly yells, "Spare the Reapers" for no reason is going to be ignored - LOL, that is NOT a hard hurdle to get over.
And in Shepard's case, I AGAIN REMIND you that when the Commander speaks to Gerrel, he DOES offer reasons to listen, which Gerrel acknowledged. UNLIKE Tali, Shepard gave a reason to stand down.
Tali = limp "stop." No one in their right mind would listen to that while fighting an avowed enemy.
Shepard = real reason and explination for stopping. Actual cause to stand down now.
This ISN'T rocked science.
So, wrong. All you did was validate why you are prejudiced for the geth.

And being the "Hero of the Galaxy" didn't save you from cowtowing to the Catalyst's arbatrary choices, now did it? You still either gave up your morals, or lost everything.
"I am Shepard" is NOT valid reason. Being Shepard doesn't instantly translate as "I am the godsend that is always right." ME2 went out of the way to illistrate that exact thing is NOT true. Shepard is just as falible as any other human being.
And AGAIN, what the hell are you babbling about? Last I checked, Gerrel DID consider that enough when he stands down on Shepard's order. What are you yelping about there?
And AGAIN, Tali says NOTHING but "Break off your attack." No reasoning whatsoever. No mention of Shepard. No mention of geth stopping. NOTHING AT ALL.
And IDK if you realized it, but being Shepard wasn't enough for ANY OTHER RACE to get behind you. It wasn't good enough for Wrex/Wreve, who holds the entire war effort hostage for a genophage cure. It wasn't good enough for the Asari and Salarians, who need to see the Citadel attacked by Cerberus to take the war seriously. It wasn't enough for the turians to martch off to war with you right off the bat. It wasn't good enough for the Alliance when you told them about the Collectors. So again, stop with the Shepard Worship. And "fall in line or die?" Sounds like you fit right in with Cerberus, Mr. Ruthless Renagade.

Gherel could have asked for more detail.  He doesn't and thus in accordance with the rules the OP established he dies.

The Turians fall in line once I deliver the Krogan and the Krogan save their a**.  The Krogan fall in line once I deliver the Genophage cure.  The Salarians fall in line once I save the Councillor.  In each of these scenarios, I save their a** and they commit to the War.  The Quarians should fall in line once I stop the Geth from wiping the floor with them.  Gherel instead refuses to listen to Tali who he knows is on the mission with me and thus speaks for me.  The Quarians die.

So once again, all you do is prove my point.  All the other races have the common sense to fall in line once I save their a**.  Gherel after I save the Quarians from death by disabling the Dreadnought refuses to fall in line when I tell him the threat is over risking my and Tali's life.  Then on Rannoch, once I save the Quarians from death a second time, he once again refuses to fall in line which is why the Quarians die.  This is just further proof of the Quarians historically have stupid f**king leaders that get their people killed.

Now if you have examples of these other races not listening to Shepard once he saves their a** then let me know. 

Tali could also have GIVEN more detail. Again, you are castiong favortist blame. After all the geth have done, any order to stop when it comes completely out of left field with not even a reason backing it, is going to be disregarded.

But the POINT is that they were unwilling to trust you on the premise of "I am Shepard. Fall in line or die." Victus gives it right back to you in the "I'm not budging without krogan support, I don't care who you are" fashion.  And "I am Shepard" did little to convince the Dalatrass to cure the genophage. Victus had to threaten her for it. There wasn't anything in that negotiation that Victus and Wrex couldn't have handled.
And wrong. You only get half the salarian's support. They withold their centeral fleet and all their derednoughts if you cure the Genophage. The Salarian First Fleet is not avalible unless you sabotage the genophage cure. Their dreadnoghts - their cloaking technology-equipped dreadnoughts, are witheld from joining you. So NO, you DON'T get the salarians to "fall in line." And last I checked, YOU didn't save the Councilor. Thane did. Shepard just stood by like a ****** and let the terminally ill drell fight the cyberneticly-enhanced super-ninja alone. Or, if Thane is dead, Kiherre takes the shot for the Councilor while you STILL stand there like an idiot. Yeah. Real big of Shep. Not ONCE does the Commander take the oppertunity to shot Leng.
And AGAIN, to qoute the Codex on "Geth: Culture."
"The only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for
centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic
ship that entered their territory ever returned."

Taken verbatium from the Codex. And the geth's actions at the Citadel haven't improved that image. So AGAIN, dead wrong. The geth were seen as impossible to negotiate with LONG BEFORE the Rannoch War. They are seen as organic-hostile regardless of a Reaper alliance. And last I checked, since the quarians standing down is completely dependand on the information Shepard is holding, the ONLY perosn to blame for their deaths is YOU. YOUR Shepard is the one with the blood on his/her hands. YOUR witholding of information kills the quarians, NOT a prejudice of the geth. And last I heard, YOU had to get TALI'S AND   KORIS' athourituy, NOT the other way around. Besides. speaking with your perosnal athourity didn't do Garrus much good with Ash/Kaiden on Horizon, now did it? Nor did your perosnal word/athourity do anything for Anderson off th bat, or the entire Alliance command.
Face it. Shepard's athourity is NOT a Godsend.

So, AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. All you have done is further weaken your already nonexistant point. Shepard personally says that what he/she did, could be done by anyone. Shepard's word has repeatedly been seen as suspect, and is NOT infallible. YOU didn't save the Councilor, nor was your athourity anything to brag about in the Rannoch War, or with the turians and krogan, who didn't give a damn about who you were, and simply wanted their personal problems solved with NO CARE who the hell you were.
And AGAIN: massive history of geth being organic hostile and impossible to negotiate with. No negotiation ended with the organics living through the attempt. All indicators point to geth being indiscriminately anti-organic without NEEDING Reaper infulence. What else is Gerrel SUPPOSED to think?

And example: Salarians withold ALL their dreadnoughts from you. Also, I'm pretty sure Shepard FAILS to save the asari's asses.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Regardless, it's no way to have a debate. Look at me and @remydat. I don't think my returning of his snide comments is having any positive effect, is it?
And again, the books and comics were offically licensed by the writers. They are cannon. Unless they release statements that tell you to disregard it as cannon, there isn't choice but to regard it as cannon. Especally since plot points of Revelation, Ascencion, Retribution, and Invasion have been cannonized by statements and entries of ME2 & ME3.

Sorry what snide comments have I made at you?  Find where I have personally insulted you?  You have called me a ****** and a smart a** ie launched personal attacks at me just because I made jokes about fictional characters and events. 

You get all emotional and launch personal attacks as if the Quarians are your family.  If you can't take a joke about fictional characters and fictional events then you should probably log off the interent. 

You continue to accuse ME fo doing it. YOU said I use headcannon when all I have done is prove YOU guilty of it. Besides, I'm pretty sure that two other people commented on you being wrong about me starting any of that.
And you are the one mispelling Gerrel's name over a petty dislike. Again, don't call the kettle black.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yet, you disregard in-game codex entries. And again, you are the one that refused to answer multiple questions, or the refutes that proved YOUR supposed answers as biased.
And stop with the condesending BS. You don't act like that unless you intend to have it returned to you. Besides, you yourself show innability to move on from the topic, so please don't call the kettle black. At least TRY to be civil.

I have moved on from the topic as I am not discussing it anymore.  I am discussing you continuing to cry about it.  I want to see how long you will continue to repeat yourself on a topic that the other person is not even debating any longer.

And once again, an answer was provided regarding my thoughts if ME Revelations was correct.  It was provided several pages ago.  The question was answered.

Yet hear you still are, leaving questiions unasmwered because you cannot answer them but refuse to admit you are wrong.

And WRONG. You refused to acknowledge the majority of books as cannon because it didn't fit YOUR cannon.

[Khelish]

silverexile17s wrote...

And you are the one mispelling Gerrel's name over a petty dislike. Again, don't call the kettle black.

Inb4 Reammmy says "Gherral" is a fictional character, so mispelling his name shouldn't bug you.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I already responded to that point, four times now I think.

Robert asked me to respond peacefully. I did. His response contained more attacks.

I followed through on his request, and he attacked me anyway. And now you are too.

Hmmm...so I stood down as requested, and was still attacked?

Fascinating.

You're being as ridculous, stubborn, and dismissive and are double talking just like remy. Your rant did nothing to prove contradiction between the novels and in game lore.

That is exactly what you said to Robert.  He asked you to respond without personal attacks.  You said you did not understand to which he said.

robertthebard wrote...

Ok, this was your little tantrum earlier:

I want to know what was changed when this writer posted that Sovereign was stronger than he was supposed to be in cutscenes(I believe that's what you said, not going back several pages to look though).  I mean, you are seriously ready to have a stroke over whether or not the guy said it, or maybe whether I believe he said it, or maybe that it's somehow important to the dialog, so I want to know what changed in the games because of it.  Did they edit out the ship names dialog you can have with the reporter if you don't punch her?  Did Hackett quit saying that the battle with Sovereign took everything they had, you know, things like that.  Because frankly, if the answer is nothing, what's the point of a) bringing it up, and holding your breath in the aisle at WalMart, stomping your feet and screaming until somebody tells you he said it?

Robert did not personally attack you so much as he used colorful language to explain what you in fact did ie threw a tantrum.  If you don't want me to get involved then don't call out my name when you launch personal attacks at people.  You said you did not understand and so Robert told you that he felt your previous responses were akin to throwing a tantrum.  Based on what you said above, that is not an unreasonable position.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 04:41 .

[robertthebard]

I do, at times, wonder why Tali didn't say what the interrupt says, instead of requiring one. Although I do understand that they needed the interrupt or it would be impossible to fail to get both, or at least, really damn hard, as in, you would actually have to try to only get one of them. That's probably the only reason they have for "Stand down". Pure speculation on my part.

[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But yet, there are events that have been cannonized in-game.
ME2: Cerberus' attack on the quarian flotila in an attempt to "capture or control a young human biotic," as told by Tali herself after you recrute her from Haestrom. This is the plotline of Mass Effect: Ascencion, cannonzed in-game by Tali, Prazza, and then by Kar'Donna vas Ryya's mention of "the Acencion project fiasco with Cerberus."
ME3: Kai Leng's injured legs, Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders, Paul Grasyon's implantation with Reaper tech, and Sanders' job at Grissom Acadamy are all things that took place in Mass Effect: Retribution, nearly a full year before the scripts for ME3 were written up.
ME3: Kahlee Sanders meeting Anderson 20 years ago, and being "there when Saren bertrayed him" is cannon events of Mass Effect: Revelation's plotline.
ME3: Omega DLC: An entire set of Codex entries are created that cannonize the events of the Mass Effect: Invasion comics.
Thus far, the ONLY book that wasn't cannon was Mass Effect: Deception, which was the ONLY book that wasn't licenced by the writers of the game.

Snipped to clean up nested quotes.

Items that do make it into the game, such as Cerberus attacking the Quarian fleet are now in game lore.  Items that don't, are not.  Of course, I went through the last post that listed some of these, or maybe all of them, and indicated the ones that are referenced in game.  This does not mean that every item in the novel made it to the game, or even got mentioned.  Without ever reading the novel, I knew that some time in the two years that Shepard was down, Cerberus attacked the Quarians.  There were no particulars, but I knew it, because in ME 2, when I go on the very first mission, and meet Tali and her squad, they tell me.

Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders is brought up first by her, and then by Anderson in ME 3.  This, however, started well before Shepard was even in the military.  She says it's been 20 some years on the Grissom Academy station.  I didn't need to read a book to know it, it's presented in game.

I knew Kai Leng had messed up legs because Anderson told me, it's in game, I don't have to buy a book.  Some of the items you list still don't apply to me, I don't care for Aria, and don't do her side quests on the Citadel in ME 3, I'm sure not going to buy a DLC dedicated to her.  I won't be raising as much of a fuss about DLC as I do with novels, but really a lot of the things that come up that raise my hackles are things that conflict what I'm led to believe by the game, and I've gone over that list enough.  The reason I won't have the same reaction would be the same reason I wouldn't react if I didn't own ME 1, or ME 2 and somebody referenced it.  It's actually in the game, I just don't own that part of the game.

I can enjoy discussion on the game just fine, so long as the discussion of lore is taken from the game.  There are in game references to Kahlee and Anderson, for example.  I don't know, and don't need to know the specifics.  I know that they knew each other when Saren betrayed Anderson, and that Anderson saved her life.  I don't need to know, for example, that Kai Leng likes cereal, even though I find that I do know it, damn BSN...  The issue here, for me, is that this is a discussion about ME 3.  It is not a discussion about Ascension, or the other novels/comics, etc.  I'm not going to run out and buy a book or three to fill in gaps in lore for the game.  The important bits are written into the game.

But AGAIN, doing that is headcannon. The books and comics are all licensed products of the writers, who have comfirmed that said materials are completely cannon. The only time you CAN consider it not, is when THEY say it's not.
Look at Halo, Star Wars, Star Trek. The books in those franchises are never depicted on-screan, yet are licenced as CANNON.  And being in-game does NOT make it immune to retcon, as @tevix pointed out with the retconning of Reaper capabilities between ME1 and ME3. Look at Darth Maul's death in Star Wars: Episode I. On-screan cannon death, then suddenly, *poof* alive again. Retcons happen, and being on-screan or in-game does NOT make them immune to retcon.
The simple fact is that all the books and comics that have the offical licence and seal of approval from the writers themselves are considered factual cannon. ONLY the word of the writers can change that, as shown in the case of ME: Deception. Ignoring book/comic lore is headcannon, plain and simple. Sorry, but Nothing save the writers themselves can change that.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Tali could also have GIVEN more detail. Again, you are castiong favortist blame. After all the geth have done, any order to stop when it comes completely out of left field with not even a reason backing it, is going to be disregarded.

But the POINT is that they were unwilling to trust you on the premise of "I am Shepard. Fall in line or die." Victus gives it right back to you in the "I'm not budging without krogan support, I don't care who you are" fashion.  And "I am Shepard" did little to convince the Dalatrass to cure the genophage. Victus had to threaten her for it. There wasn't anything in that negotiation that Victus and Wrex couldn't have handled.
And wrong. You only get half the salarian's support. They withold their centeral fleet and all their derednoughts if you cure the Genophage. The Salarian First Fleet is not avalible unless you sabotage the genophage cure. Their dreadnoghts - their cloaking technology-equipped dreadnoughts, are witheld from joining you. So NO, you DON'T get the salarians to "fall in line." And last I checked, YOU didn't save the Councilor. Thane did. Shepard just stood by like a ****** and let the terminally ill drell fight the cyberneticly-enhanced super-ninja alone. Or, if Thane is dead, Kiherre takes the shot for the Councilor while you STILL stand there like an idiot. Yeah. Real big of Shep. Not ONCE does the Commander take the oppertunity to shot Leng.
And AGAIN, to qoute the Codex on "Geth: Culture."
"The only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for
centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic
ship that entered their territory ever returned."

Taken verbatium from the Codex. And the geth's actions at the Citadel haven't improved that image. So AGAIN, dead wrong. The geth were seen as impossible to negotiate with LONG BEFORE the Rannoch War. They are seen as organic-hostile regardless of a Reaper alliance. And last I checked, since the quarians standing down is completely dependand on the information Shepard is holding, the ONLY perosn to blame for their deaths is YOU. YOUR Shepard is the one with the blood on his/her hands. YOUR witholding of information kills the quarians, NOT a prejudice of the geth. And last I heard, YOU had to get TALI'S AND   KORIS' athourituy, NOT the other way around. Besides. speaking with your perosnal athourity didn't do Garrus much good with Ash/Kaiden on Horizon, now did it? Nor did your perosnal word/athourity do anything for Anderson off th bat, or the entire Alliance command.
Face it. Shepard's athourity is NOT a Godsend.

So, AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. All you have done is further weaken your already nonexistant point. Shepard personally says that what he/she did, could be done by anyone. Shepard's word has repeatedly been seen as suspect, and is NOT infallible. YOU didn't save the Councilor, nor was your athourity anything to brag about in the Rannoch War, or with the turians and krogan, who didn't give a damn about who you were, and simply wanted their personal problems solved with NO CARE who the hell you were.
And AGAIN: massive history of geth being organic hostile and impossible to negotiate with. No negotiation ended with the organics living through the attempt. All indicators point to geth being indiscriminately anti-organic without NEEDING Reaper infulence. What else is Gerrel SUPPOSED to think?

And example: Salarians withold ALL their dreadnoughts from you. Also, I'm pretty sure Shepard FAILS to save the asari's asses.

Umm, you are confused once again.  Tali was stupid if we assume the writers really intended for her to not tell Gherel about the RC.  So once again, the Quarians leaders are f**king stupid.  I really don't care who you consider the idiot in the situation.

Victus has every right to not commit resources when his world is being bombards.  As does everyone else.  The point is once I save their a**, they fall in line.  That doesn't mean they give me all their resources.  They still have planets to protect.  That means they don't openly defy orders once I helped them.

Gherel threw his people into a war that I had to bail him out of.  He refuses to listen to mean despite my doing so.  He dies.

And once again, I already answered the question under the assumption that the Geth attacking diplomatic ships is correct.  That was answered several pages ago so not sure why you keep brining it up.

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But yet, there are events that have been cannonized in-game.
ME2: Cerberus' attack on the quarian flotila in an attempt to "capture or control a young human biotic," as told by Tali herself after you recrute her from Haestrom. This is the plotline of Mass Effect: Ascencion, cannonzed in-game by Tali, Prazza, and then by Kar'Donna vas Ryya's mention of "the Acencion project fiasco with Cerberus."
ME3: Kai Leng's injured legs, Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders, Paul Grasyon's implantation with Reaper tech, and Sanders' job at Grissom Acadamy are all things that took place in Mass Effect: Retribution, nearly a full year before the scripts for ME3 were written up.
ME3: Kahlee Sanders meeting Anderson 20 years ago, and being "there when Saren bertrayed him" is cannon events of Mass Effect: Revelation's plotline.
ME3: Omega DLC: An entire set of Codex entries are created that cannonize the events of the Mass Effect: Invasion comics.
Thus far, the ONLY book that wasn't cannon was Mass Effect: Deception, which was the ONLY book that wasn't licenced by the writers of the game.

Snipped to clean up nested quotes.

Items that do make it into the game, such as Cerberus attacking the Quarian fleet are now in game lore.  Items that don't, are not.  Of course, I went through the last post that listed some of these, or maybe all of them, and indicated the ones that are referenced in game.  This does not mean that every item in the novel made it to the game, or even got mentioned.  Without ever reading the novel, I knew that some time in the two years that Shepard was down, Cerberus attacked the Quarians.  There were no particulars, but I knew it, because in ME 2, when I go on the very first mission, and meet Tali and her squad, they tell me.

Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders is brought up first by her, and then by Anderson in ME 3.  This, however, started well before Shepard was even in the military.  She says it's been 20 some years on the Grissom Academy station.  I didn't need to read a book to know it, it's presented in game.

I knew Kai Leng had messed up legs because Anderson told me, it's in game, I don't have to buy a book.  Some of the items you list still don't apply to me, I don't care for Aria, and don't do her side quests on the Citadel in ME 3, I'm sure not going to buy a DLC dedicated to her.  I won't be raising as much of a fuss about DLC as I do with novels, but really a lot of the things that come up that raise my hackles are things that conflict what I'm led to believe by the game, and I've gone over that list enough.  The reason I won't have the same reaction would be the same reason I wouldn't react if I didn't own ME 1, or ME 2 and somebody referenced it.  It's actually in the game, I just don't own that part of the game.

I can enjoy discussion on the game just fine, so long as the discussion of lore is taken from the game.  There are in game references to Kahlee and Anderson, for example.  I don't know, and don't need to know the specifics.  I know that they knew each other when Saren betrayed Anderson, and that Anderson saved her life.  I don't need to know, for example, that Kai Leng likes cereal, even though I find that I do know it, damn BSN...  The issue here, for me, is that this is a discussion about ME 3.  It is not a discussion about Ascension, or the other novels/comics, etc.  I'm not going to run out and buy a book or three to fill in gaps in lore for the game.  The important bits are written into the game.

But AGAIN, doing that is headcannon. The books and comics are all licensed products of the writers, who have comfirmed that said materials are completely cannon. The only time you CAN consider it not, is when THEY say it's not.
Look at Halo, Star Wars, Star Trek. The books in those franchises are never depicted on-screan, yet are licenced as CANNON.  And being in-game does NOT make it immune to retcon, as @tevix pointed out with the retconning of Reaper capabilities between ME1 and ME3. Look at Darth Maul's death in Star Wars: Episode I. On-screan cannon death, then suddenly, *poof* alive again. Retcons happen, and being on-screan or in-game does NOT make them immune to retcon.
The simple fact is that all the books and comics that have the offical licence and seal of approval from the writers themselves are considered factual cannon. ONLY the word of the writers can change that, as shown in the case of ME: Deception. Ignoring book/comic lore is headcannon, plain and simple. Sorry, but Nothing save the writers themselves can change that.

Here's the thing.  I'm not head canoning anything, because I'm not adding to, or taking away from what's in the game, I am simply going by what is in the game.  That is, by definition, canon.  This could come down to semantics, as well, I suppose.  I referenced the books by Mr. Gaider earlier, where he has a solid disclaimer that they aren't to be taken as canon to the games.  The trick to that is, I don't own those books, or read those comics either.  I enjoy the Dragon Age series just fine, but I'm not interested in reading the books that go along with it.  The same applies here.  My little MMO vacation is coming to an end, and I'll be back to those for who knows how long.  If I feel the need to be Dragon Aged, or Mass Effected, I'll load the games, it's easier.