4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

robertthebard wrote...

I do, at times, wonder why Tali didn't say what the interrupt says, instead of requiring one. Although I do understand that they needed the interrupt or it would be impossible to fail to get both, or at least, really damn hard, as in, you would actually have to try to only get one of them. That's probably the only reason they have for "Stand down". Pure speculation on my part.

Most likely they simply wanted dialogue options to be different.  If the dialogue was the exact same in every situation then the paragon and renegade options would look stupid. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Gentlemen play nice.

We can't be fighting ourselves and the cuttlefish at the same time.

[robertthebard]

remydat wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I do, at times, wonder why Tali didn't say what the interrupt says, instead of requiring one. Although I do understand that they needed the interrupt or it would be impossible to fail to get both, or at least, really damn hard, as in, you would actually have to try to only get one of them. That's probably the only reason they have for "Stand down". Pure speculation on my part.

Most likely they simply wanted dialogue options to be different.  If the dialogue was the exact same in every situation then the paragon and renegade options would look stupid. 

The thing is, I think if Tali actually had the line from, and just to randomly pick one, the Paragon interrupt, it would be next to impossible to fail to get both, if you played ME 2 and resolved their conflict to where they both stayed loyal, and rescued the Admiral.  So they had to do it that way to make you "earn" it.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You continue to accuse ME fo doing it. YOU said I use headcannon when all I have done is prove YOU guilty of it. Besides, I'm pretty sure that two other people commented on you being wrong about me starting any of that.
And you are the one mispelling Gerrel's name over a petty dislike. Again, don't call the kettle black.

You have proved me guilty of nothing because nowhere did I claim anything as fact.  I said people were free to believe what they want.  I gave an opinion and unlike you I know opinions are not fact.

Do you understand the concept that Gherel is not a real person?  Me making fun of a fictional character is not cause for you to launch personal attacks. The fact you equate me attacks on fictional characters with your attacks on my as calling the kettle black suggests you have lost perspective here.

Is Gherel going to give you a medal for defending his fictional honor?

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 05:12 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And you are the one mispelling Gerrel's name over a petty dislike. Again, don't call the kettle black.

Inb4 Reammmy says "Gherral" is a fictional character, so mispelling his name shouldn't bug you.

No it shouldn't.  If it does then you probably should log off and go hug a real person. 

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

First off, When you first Talk to Tali the moment she comes aborad (BEFORE the geth dreadnought mission) she says the last transmission she had with Legion was that the geth were having touble reaching consensis. She tells Shepard that this might be because they were already in talks with the Reapers long before the invasion ever began and were weighing their options. And for the record, she is making this observation in hindsight, based on how the geth have allied with the Reapers so quickly after the attack, so she is considering the possibility that the geth were in contact well before the invasion started. It's only an observation Tali makes from an educated guess that is in turn made in hindsight. She is only JUST now peiceing the trouble reaching consensis with the possibility of Reaper contact.  Hence why she never went to the Admirals: because she is only just now figuring on this.

Post the video for that conversation. You'll have to excuse me for not taking your word for it considering the fact that you tend to put pieces of dialouge in the wrong topic to give it false meaning.  But once again that would be Tali's speculation on why contact was lost. She knows nothing of what was going on with the Geth. And yes she is wrong because Leigon proves her speculation to be false when they first come in contact with him and she agrees with him and EDI.  Hence why she then says her people were wrong.

But still, it makes sence that the Reapers would try and recrut the geth right off the bat.

But still, you are wrong. The Reapers extended an offer when the Quarians attacked and the Geth were deseperate to live. And even though they were desperate to live, if you get rid of their Reaper worshipping zealots, the decision is still hard for them to make. You want to know what the Geth were doing before the Quarians attacked? Planning to kill Reapers like the rest of the galaxy. They were even getting prepared while Shepard was still trying to convince everyone else that the threat exists.

And NO, it DOESN'T contridict thmy statement. Legion says that it "would not have been nessessary." I said the geth jumped on it in deperation without thinking, because in terms of long-term consiquences, they DIDN'T think.

You do nothing but contradict yourself and treat the dialouge as though it were puzzle pieces to force your point. Now you claim they didn't think of the long term consequences. How would you even know that? You have no idea how far ahead the Geth thought but still reached the conclusion that losing their free will was better than death and let's not pretend that the Quarians wouldn't have wiped them out if they didn't side with the Reapers.

And AGAIN, no he doesn't. You are the one stretching the sentance.

I have not stretched anything. I have provided nothing but proof to back up my claims to you and even tried to help you out in proving your own point. Yet your point was so one sided and forced to the point where that was a failure. 

You even misused the word "evidently" and based an entire opinion behind it. Why can't you just admit, that you thought the word meant that Leigon had doubts?

www.thefreedictionary.com/evidently

Evidently: Clearly, without question,undoubtedly.

The sentence is what it is. Legion tells Shepard that siding with the Reapers over termination, even if it costs them their free will, is without a doubt a better deal.

I remind you that the Geth V.I. never says those lines. And AGAIN, when you talk to Legion, he no longer reconizes himself as a member of the geth. He sees himself as individual from the rest of the geth. If he DID agree with it, he would have said "there was no other choice," or "it was nessessary." He DOESN'T. He doesn't support what the geth did.

Post a vid where dialouge isn't skipped over. But really I don't even care. As your entire opinion is that Leigon was against the Geth siding with the Reapers. And that had already been proven false.

Leigon does not become an individual from the Geth until just before the final upload of the code. "Shepard I must go to them." Even Tali admits that Leigon became an individual just before dying.

And again, Wrong. The Geth V.I. says that it was because he didn't think Shepard would be smart enough to apreicate the upgrades. With Legion, he waffles on Shepard's comment - he does NOT deny that he feels ashamed at taking the codes for himself.

"Again, wrong?" On what? I don't dispute anything the Geth V.I says. As for Leigon, the one we are truly discussing here, and what he did or did not say. He tells Shepard point blank that the Geth (meaning himself) are not above taking the upgrade and lying to him/her about it. Doesn't sound like this great shame you continue to speak of.

Now, in helping you out again you can say that Leigon hanging his head low while mentioning that he has the upgrades means that he is ashamed of having them. But I can also say that he hung his head low because he was lying to Shepard about it and knew he would get upset, which he does.

But you want to know who does sound ashamed of her people's actions? Evidently, it'sTALI

1. What? It's not that hard to do yourself.  All you have to do is load a save that's before the geth Dreadnought, then talk to Tali in the War Room BEFORE you attack the Dreadnought. Pick the "Legion" dioluge option on the upper right of the wheel. She will tell you that Legion broke contact because the geth were having touble reaching consensis. She then says that perhaps it was resisting the Reaper takeover.
Ask yourself this: WHY would the geth be having such trouble now? At the very least, it's been two months before th invasion that Legion cut contact. What else do you suppose it could be? Especally since there was a Reaper on Rannoch that somehow stumbled on a fortified bunker that was perfectly speced to size for it? That just happened to be near a large geth bunker/server? Too concidental, don't you think?
And Legion only ever says that the choic would have been unessessary, NOT that the geth would have refused. Legion never clarifies on weather or not the geth would have taken the offer.

2.How So? It's the same thing Sovergien did. And it makes perfect sence since the geth are completely isolated by their own actions, so they have no where else to turn.  A perfect canidate for a proxy army. The Reapers remove a major threat AND get a large proxy forcre. Hackett himself says that he doubts the Reapers intented for the geth to fight them. Also, the fact that Reapers could get into the quarian-blockaded Tikkun system without being noticed is unlikely, as the geth say they didn't accept the offer until AFTER the megastructure was assaulted. Therefore, the quarians were already in Rannoch's system when the deal was offered. HOW did that destroyer get past the entire quarian fleet without being noticed? It makes much more sense if the thing was already on Rannoch when the quarians invaded the system.
And AGAIN, where is your proof? They say they were prepping for war, but NOT that they intended to go on the march. The Rannoch War didn't take place till at least Priority: Tuchanka. Where were they when Palaven and Earth burned? Why didn't they reach out to the galaxy in the six month reprive between ME2 and ME3? In all likelyhood, the geth were planning to turtle up and wait out the war in isolation.

3. Wrong. Legion fully states that self-preservation took full hold because the geth now lacked the processing power to think through on their choices. He spifically states that self-preservation was the priority, not the consiquences.

4.AGAIN, wrong. "Evidently" in here means Legion thinks that the REST OF THE GETH think that. Legion istelf DOES'T say that. It tells you that the REST OF THE GETH think it's "evidently" acceptible. He NEVER ONCE states that HE thinks that. Like I said, I wasn't the one streaching the words out.

5. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
Remember this? There is NO TRACE of the "evedently" statement. It completely brushes off that the geth were desperate, or ANY notion that they had emotion or that the choice was disputible. Legion isn't that sure about it.
The V.I. also says that what the Reapers have done to the Consenses is what it opposes, NOT the genocode of the quarians, which is counter to the cooperation Legion desires.

6. Wrong. Legion NEVER denies that it's ashamed. It says that it "shouldn't apply here." That's tantimount to saying "I shouldn't feel guilt about it," yet never actually STATES that he doesn't feel guilty about it.
And if you want to get technical, it may feel guilty about BOTH things.
And in truth, I believe that BOTH Legion and Tali are ashamed about the paths they and their races took.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 mars 2013 - 05:07 .

[remydat]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Gentlemen play nice.

We can't be fighting ourselves and the cuttlefish at the same time.

Maybe should have told the Quarians that before they launched a war in the middle of the Reaper invasion.

Disclaimer:  The above was merely a joke and not meant to be taken seriously.  If you feel the need to launch personal attacks as a result of a joke about fictional characters and fictional events in a fictional universe then please seek professional assistance.

Disclaimer 2:  Please note the Disclaimer above was also a joke.  If you feel the need to launch personal attacks as a result of a joke about fictional characters and fictional events in a fictional universe then please seek professional assistance.

Disclaimer 3:  You get the idea right?

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 05:20 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Tali could also have GIVEN more detail. Again, you are castiong favortist blame. After all the geth have done, any order to stop when it comes completely out of left field with not even a reason backing it, is going to be disregarded.

But the POINT is that they were unwilling to trust you on the premise of "I am Shepard. Fall in line or die." Victus gives it right back to you in the "I'm not budging without krogan support, I don't care who you are" fashion.  And "I am Shepard" did little to convince the Dalatrass to cure the genophage. Victus had to threaten her for it. There wasn't anything in that negotiation that Victus and Wrex couldn't have handled.
And wrong. You only get half the salarian's support. They withold their centeral fleet and all their derednoughts if you cure the Genophage. The Salarian First Fleet is not avalible unless you sabotage the genophage cure. Their dreadnoghts - their cloaking technology-equipped dreadnoughts, are witheld from joining you. So NO, you DON'T get the salarians to "fall in line." And last I checked, YOU didn't save the Councilor. Thane did. Shepard just stood by like a ****** and let the terminally ill drell fight the cyberneticly-enhanced super-ninja alone. Or, if Thane is dead, Kiherre takes the shot for the Councilor while you STILL stand there like an idiot. Yeah. Real big of Shep. Not ONCE does the Commander take the oppertunity to shot Leng.
And AGAIN, to qoute the Codex on "Geth: Culture."
"The only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for
centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic
ship that entered their territory ever returned."

Taken verbatium from the Codex. And the geth's actions at the Citadel haven't improved that image. So AGAIN, dead wrong. The geth were seen as impossible to negotiate with LONG BEFORE the Rannoch War. They are seen as organic-hostile regardless of a Reaper alliance. And last I checked, since the quarians standing down is completely dependand on the information Shepard is holding, the ONLY perosn to blame for their deaths is YOU. YOUR Shepard is the one with the blood on his/her hands. YOUR witholding of information kills the quarians, NOT a prejudice of the geth. And last I heard, YOU had to get TALI'S AND   KORIS' athourituy, NOT the other way around. Besides. speaking with your perosnal athourity didn't do Garrus much good with Ash/Kaiden on Horizon, now did it? Nor did your perosnal word/athourity do anything for Anderson off th bat, or the entire Alliance command.
Face it. Shepard's athourity is NOT a Godsend.

So, AGAIN, DEAD WRONG. All you have done is further weaken your already nonexistant point. Shepard personally says that what he/she did, could be done by anyone. Shepard's word has repeatedly been seen as suspect, and is NOT infallible. YOU didn't save the Councilor, nor was your athourity anything to brag about in the Rannoch War, or with the turians and krogan, who didn't give a damn about who you were, and simply wanted their personal problems solved with NO CARE who the hell you were.
And AGAIN: massive history of geth being organic hostile and impossible to negotiate with. No negotiation ended with the organics living through the attempt. All indicators point to geth being indiscriminately anti-organic without NEEDING Reaper infulence. What else is Gerrel SUPPOSED to think?

And example: Salarians withold ALL their dreadnoughts from you. Also, I'm pretty sure Shepard FAILS to save the asari's asses.

Umm, you are confused once again.  Tali was stupid if we assume the writers really intended for her to not tell Gherel about the RC.  So once again, the Quarians leaders are f**king stupid.  I really don't care who you consider the idiot in the situation.

Victus has every right to not commit resources when his world is being bombards.  As does everyone else.  The point is once I save their a**, they fall in line.  That doesn't mean they give me all their resources.  They still have planets to protect.  That means they don't openly defy orders once I helped them.

Gherel threw his people into a war that I had to bail him out of.  He refuses to listen to mean despite my doing so.  He dies.

And once again, I already answered the question under the assumption that the Geth attacking diplomatic ships is correct.  That was answered several pages ago so not sure why you keep brining it up.

WRONG.
In this case, Tali/Raan is the retard for not giving actual, coherant reasons to stand down against an avowed enemy of the quarians, and the entire free galaxy. It's as retarded as yelling out "don't kill the Reapers" for no reason whatsoever, and just as likely to be ignored. So AGAIN, the only one that is confused is you.

And that doesn't stop Shepard from demanding Victus' support does it? In spite of seeing the dvestation on Palaven and Menae himself, he still tells Victus to stow it and come to Earth. That's a dick move if there ever was one. And AGAIN, "saving the asses" of the turians and krogan STILL didn't convince the salarians and asari to do anything, now did it? It took THANE's heroics to do that. And acting like you do with them, it's priming for failure. No one wants to follow a dictator, or will morun you when you die. "A bully has few friends when he needs them most."

And AGAIN, wrong. Gerrel didn't force anything. The quarians went to war on a majority vote made by their Conclave senete. THEY willingly went to war. And AGAIN, avowed enemy of the free galaxy? Listed Reaper allies? World they need to reclaim as a matter of physilogical need? JUST LIKE YOU AND EARTH? Except unlike you, the quarians CAN't survive anywhere else but Rannoch.

And last I checked, when you tell him to stand down, he STANDS DOWN. Why the hell do you keep babbling about him not listening to you when that's EXACTALLY what he does?

And it's because you STILL refuse to admit that in attacking those ships, the geth created their own demise by giving the galaxy the view of them being irrevocibly hostile to organics.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Gentlemen play nice.

We can't be fighting ourselves and the cuttlefish at the same time.

Maybe should have told the Quarians that before they launched a war in the middle of the Reaper invasion.

Again, I repeat: Every diplomtaic action met with instant death.
Who is going to attempt diplomicy when it always ended with a bullet to the head?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Khelish wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And you are the one mispelling Gerrel's name over a petty dislike. Again, don't call the kettle black.

Inb4 Reammmy says "Gherral" is a fictional character, so mispelling his name shouldn't bug you.

No it shouldn't.  If it does then you probably should log off and go hug a real person. 

You are the one that takes this so personally that you feel a physilogical need to mispell the name of a fictional character over a petty grudge that doesn't even have any backing. THAT'S the childlish notion.
And note: you cast the first stone with a personal attack. Just for the record.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You continue to accuse ME fo doing it. YOU said I use headcannon when all I have done is prove YOU guilty of it. Besides, I'm pretty sure that two other people commented on you being wrong about me starting any of that.
And you are the one mispelling Gerrel's name over a petty dislike. Again, don't call the kettle black.

You have proved me guilty of nothing because nowhere did I claim anything as fact.  I said people were free to believe what they want.  I gave an opinion and unlike you I know opinions are not fact.

Do you understand the concept that Gherel is not a real person?  Me making fun of a fictional character is not cause for you to launch personal attacks. The fact you equate me attacks on fictional characters with your attacks on my as calling the kettle black suggests you have lost perspective here.

Is Gherel going to give you a medal for defending his fictional honor?

You are the one that feels the petty need to say a fictional character deserves spite that you throw at him. I likewise don't see any geth pinning medals on you for that. And AGAIN, I asked if you could be civil, you respond with this. See a pattern?

And AGAIN, that's my POINT. You do not believe ANYTHING is fact, denying even in-game codex and book/comic lore because it wasn't directly stated by the in-game characters. And you assume any character has a bias except Legion. THAT'S headcannon - refusing to acknowledge any form of CONFIRMED cannon that contridicts your own.
My words ARE based on fact that I have qouted and provided for you. And the simple thruth is that you refuse to see FACT as fact even when confirmed by the writers themselves.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG.
In this case, Tali/Raan is the retard for not giving actual, coherant reasons to stand down against an avowed enemy of the quarians, and the entire free galaxy. It's as retarded as yelling out "don't kill the Reapers" for no reason whatsoever, and just as likely to be ignored. So AGAIN, the only one that is confused is you.

And that doesn't stop Shepard from demanding Victus' support does it? In spite of seeing the dvestation on Palaven and Menae himself, he still tells Victus to stow it and come to Earth. That's a dick move if there ever was one. And AGAIN, "saving the asses" of the turians and krogan STILL didn't convince the salarians and asari to do anything, now did it? It took THANE's heroics to do that. And acting like you do with them, it's priming for failure. No one wants to follow a dictator, or will morun you when you die. "A bully has few friends when he needs them most."

And AGAIN, wrong. Gerrel didn't force anything. The quarians went to war on a majority vote made by their Conclave senete. THEY willingly went to war. And AGAIN, avowed enemy of the free galaxy? Listed Reaper allies? World they need to reclaim as a matter of physilogical need? JUST LIKE YOU AND EARTH? Except unlike you, the quarians CAN't survive anywhere else but Rannoch.

And last I checked, when you tell him to stand down, he STANDS DOWN. Why the hell do you keep babbling about him not listening to you when that's EXACTALLY what he does?

And it's because you STILL refuse to admit that in attacking those ships, the geth created their own demise by giving the galaxy the view of them being irrevocibly hostile to organics.

No they are all stupid.  Tali, Raan and Gherel.  If an admiral tells you to stand down, they are not doing it for sh*ts and giggles.  Gherel has a responsibility to the people he leads to find out why they gave such an order.  Just ignoring it and launching an attack is stupid and is why they die.  So we have 3 stupid Admirals and once again Quarian leaders are f**king stupid which is why they die.

This has nothing to do with being a dictator.  This has to do with common f**king sense.  When I save your a** then you don't just disregard orders.  If you want to disregard an order then you find out why it was given.  You don't just disregard it and do whatever you want. 

And once again, when Shep saves the Turians and Krogan, where do you say Victus or Wrex openly disregarding orders and doing what they want with no further discussion?  When the Councilor is saved where do you see the Salarians openly disregarding Shepard?  Give me a specific example from the game.

And do you see the thread topic.  We are not talking about the option that leads to peace.  We are talking about being forced to choose between the two.   We all know there is an option where you talk him down.  That is not the option being discussed.  In the options being discussed Gherel refuses to listen to a fellow Admiral who he knows is on the mission with Shepard.  Gherel does nothing to ask why such an order was given and they die.

When you have 3 idiot generals who apparently can't communicate with each other then you have a problem I don't need in a war for the galaxy.  I mean this is f**king basic stuff and these bozos can't get it right.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 05:35 .

[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But yet, there are events that have been cannonized in-game.
ME2: Cerberus' attack on the quarian flotila in an attempt to "capture or control a young human biotic," as told by Tali herself after you recrute her from Haestrom. This is the plotline of Mass Effect: Ascencion, cannonzed in-game by Tali, Prazza, and then by Kar'Donna vas Ryya's mention of "the Acencion project fiasco with Cerberus."
ME3: Kai Leng's injured legs, Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders, Paul Grasyon's implantation with Reaper tech, and Sanders' job at Grissom Acadamy are all things that took place in Mass Effect: Retribution, nearly a full year before the scripts for ME3 were written up.
ME3: Kahlee Sanders meeting Anderson 20 years ago, and being "there when Saren bertrayed him" is cannon events of Mass Effect: Revelation's plotline.
ME3: Omega DLC: An entire set of Codex entries are created that cannonize the events of the Mass Effect: Invasion comics.
Thus far, the ONLY book that wasn't cannon was Mass Effect: Deception, which was the ONLY book that wasn't licenced by the writers of the game.

Snipped to clean up nested quotes.

Items that do make it into the game, such as Cerberus attacking the Quarian fleet are now in game lore.  Items that don't, are not.  Of course, I went through the last post that listed some of these, or maybe all of them, and indicated the ones that are referenced in game.  This does not mean that every item in the novel made it to the game, or even got mentioned.  Without ever reading the novel, I knew that some time in the two years that Shepard was down, Cerberus attacked the Quarians.  There were no particulars, but I knew it, because in ME 2, when I go on the very first mission, and meet Tali and her squad, they tell me.

Anderson's relationship with Kahlee Sanders is brought up first by her, and then by Anderson in ME 3.  This, however, started well before Shepard was even in the military.  She says it's been 20 some years on the Grissom Academy station.  I didn't need to read a book to know it, it's presented in game.

I knew Kai Leng had messed up legs because Anderson told me, it's in game, I don't have to buy a book.  Some of the items you list still don't apply to me, I don't care for Aria, and don't do her side quests on the Citadel in ME 3, I'm sure not going to buy a DLC dedicated to her.  I won't be raising as much of a fuss about DLC as I do with novels, but really a lot of the things that come up that raise my hackles are things that conflict what I'm led to believe by the game, and I've gone over that list enough.  The reason I won't have the same reaction would be the same reason I wouldn't react if I didn't own ME 1, or ME 2 and somebody referenced it.  It's actually in the game, I just don't own that part of the game.

I can enjoy discussion on the game just fine, so long as the discussion of lore is taken from the game.  There are in game references to Kahlee and Anderson, for example.  I don't know, and don't need to know the specifics.  I know that they knew each other when Saren betrayed Anderson, and that Anderson saved her life.  I don't need to know, for example, that Kai Leng likes cereal, even though I find that I do know it, damn BSN...  The issue here, for me, is that this is a discussion about ME 3.  It is not a discussion about Ascension, or the other novels/comics, etc.  I'm not going to run out and buy a book or three to fill in gaps in lore for the game.  The important bits are written into the game.

But AGAIN, doing that is headcannon. The books and comics are all licensed products of the writers, who have comfirmed that said materials are completely cannon. The only time you CAN consider it not, is when THEY say it's not.
Look at Halo, Star Wars, Star Trek. The books in those franchises are never depicted on-screan, yet are licenced as CANNON.  And being in-game does NOT make it immune to retcon, as @tevix pointed out with the retconning of Reaper capabilities between ME1 and ME3. Look at Darth Maul's death in Star Wars: Episode I. On-screan cannon death, then suddenly, *poof* alive again. Retcons happen, and being on-screan or in-game does NOT make them immune to retcon.
The simple fact is that all the books and comics that have the offical licence and seal of approval from the writers themselves are considered factual cannon. ONLY the word of the writers can change that, as shown in the case of ME: Deception. Ignoring book/comic lore is headcannon, plain and simple. Sorry, but Nothing save the writers themselves can change that.

Here's the thing.  I'm not head canoning anything, because I'm not adding to, or taking away from what's in the game, I am simply going by what is in the game.  That is, by definition, canon.  This could come down to semantics, as well, I suppose.  I referenced the books by Mr. Gaider earlier, where he has a solid disclaimer that they aren't to be taken as canon to the games.  The trick to that is, I don't own those books, or read those comics either.  I enjoy the Dragon Age series just fine, but I'm not interested in reading the books that go along with it.  The same applies here.  My little MMO vacation is coming to an end, and I'll be back to those for who knows how long.  If I feel the need to be Dragon Aged, or Mass Effected, I'll load the games, it's easier.

Regardless, it doesn't change fact: Those books DO have writer athourization that they are cannon, unlike Gaider. The only time it didn't was with Deception, who had a writer that was NOT part of the Mass Effect writing team. All other books were written by the leaders of the ME writing team, (Drew Karpyshyn wrote all the books, and Mac Walters wrote all the comics) and all are confirmed cannon.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You are the one that takes this so personally that you feel a physilogical need to mispell the name of a fictional character over a petty grudge that doesn't even have any backing. THAT'S the childlish notion.
And note: you cast the first stone with a personal attack. Just for the record.

I feel no need.  I do it because I find it amusing that you and others get so worked up by it.

What personal attack did I launch at you?  Please don't tell me you consider my misspelling Gherel's name a personal attack?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You are the one that feels the petty need to say a fictional character deserves spite that you throw at him. I likewise don't see any geth pinning medals on you for that. And AGAIN, I asked if you could be civil, you respond with this. See a pattern?

And AGAIN, that's my POINT. You do not believe ANYTHING is fact, denying even in-game codex and book/comic lore because it wasn't directly stated by the in-game characters. And you assume any character has a bias except Legion. THAT'S headcannon - refusing to acknowledge any form of CONFIRMED cannon that contridicts your own.

My words ARE based on fact that I have qouted and provided for you. And the simple thruth is that you refuse to see FACT as fact even when confirmed by the writers themselves.

Again with this, lol.  What was not civil in my post?  I don't see any insults.  I asked you why you take the misspelling of a fictional character's name so seriously. 

And once again, I already answered the question assuming the books are canon pages ago so I refuse nothing.  I stated my opinion that I don't think they still are canon but then still provided an answer assuming that they were.  So not sure why you keep crying about something you were already provided an answer to.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG.
In this case, Tali/Raan is the retard for not giving actual, coherant reasons to stand down against an avowed enemy of the quarians, and the entire free galaxy. It's as retarded as yelling out "don't kill the Reapers" for no reason whatsoever, and just as likely to be ignored. So AGAIN, the only one that is confused is you.

And that doesn't stop Shepard from demanding Victus' support does it? In spite of seeing the dvestation on Palaven and Menae himself, he still tells Victus to stow it and come to Earth. That's a dick move if there ever was one. And AGAIN, "saving the asses" of the turians and krogan STILL didn't convince the salarians and asari to do anything, now did it? It took THANE's heroics to do that. And acting like you do with them, it's priming for failure. No one wants to follow a dictator, or will morun you when you die. "A bully has few friends when he needs them most."

And AGAIN, wrong. Gerrel didn't force anything. The quarians went to war on a majority vote made by their Conclave senete. THEY willingly went to war. And AGAIN, avowed enemy of the free galaxy? Listed Reaper allies? World they need to reclaim as a matter of physilogical need? JUST LIKE YOU AND EARTH? Except unlike you, the quarians CAN't survive anywhere else but Rannoch.

And last I checked, when you tell him to stand down, he STANDS DOWN. Why the hell do you keep babbling about him not listening to you when that's EXACTALLY what he does?

And it's because you STILL refuse to admit that in attacking those ships, the geth created their own demise by giving the galaxy the view of them being irrevocibly hostile to organics.

No they are all stupid.  Tali, Raan and Gherel.  If an admiral tells you to stand down, they are not doing it for sh*ts and giggles.  Gherel has a responsibility to the people he leads to find out why they gave such an order.  Just ignoring it and launching an attack is stupid and is why they die.  So we have 3 stupid Admirals and once again Quarian leaders are f**king stupid which is why they die.

This has nothing to do with being a dictator.  This has to do with common f**king sense.  When I save your a** then you don't just disregard orders.  If you want to disregard an order then you find out why it was given.  You don't just disregard it and do whatever you want. 

And once again, when Shep saves the Turians and Krogan, where do you say Victus or Wrex openly disregarding orders and doing what they want with no further discussion?  When the Councilor is saved where do you see the Salarians openly disregarding Shepard?  Give me a specific example from the game.

And do you see the thread topic.  We are not talking about the option that leads to peace.  We are talking about being forced to choose between the two.   We all know there is an option where you talk him down.  That is not the option being discussed.  In the options being discussed Gherel refuses to listen to a fellow Admiral who he knows is on the mission with Shepard.  Gherel does nothing to ask why such an order was given and they die.

When you have 3 idiot generals who apparently can't communicate with each other then you have a problem I don't need in a war for the galaxy.  I mean this is f**king basic stuff and these bozos can't get it right.

Last I checked, the geth were listed as the biggest threat to organics before the Reapers came. They killed everyone that ever tried ti speak to them. What makes you think that anyone is going to consider sparing them a good idea. Tali gives no reason or cause, so Gerrel brushes it off as a child that is too close to a single geth. Raan doesn't even open the damn comm. Gerrel isn't even aware that the quarians were the one that drove the geth to side with the Reapers. Only Raan and Tali know this, and out of the two of them, only Tali is willing to trust Legion's word. To Gerrel's knowledge, the geth not caring about organics was the reason they sided with the Reapers - after all, their past actions regarding the killing of all that came to speak with them would seem to indicate no love for organics.

And AGAIN:
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper
invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for
nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under
Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
Anyone looking at this? Common sense would scream at them that these are people that hate your guts and want nothing to do with you. WHERE in the above list of geth actions would "common sense" tell you the geth are peaceful in any way? If anything, only a lack of common sense would make someone think these people wanted peace from looking at this list.
And you DON'T save Gerrel's ass until THAT MOMENT.  You saved Victus's ass on Menae, and he still didn't trust you enough to tell you about the bomb he stashed on Tuchanka that Cerberus dug up. And since you DIDN'T halt the geth's Reaper-controlled blockade of the Tikkun system, you HAVEN'T saved him yet. THIS ACTION RIGHT NOW is where you save him, by telling him the geth will stand down. He DOES trust you after you save his ass, which doesn't happen till RIGHT THEN.

How about when Victus disregads your requsets to learn about the Tuchanka Bomb. And to provide any form of relief to Earth unless you save Palaven too. Spicific enough?

And AGAIN, WRONG. Tali's fault for not giving information or reasoning. The geth gave themselves their anti-organic rep.

THEY are not the ones failing at grasping basic stuff. After all, you can't grasp that when a faction does nothing but bad things and never does anything to offset it, they get branded enemies, and that's on no one's shoulders but theirs. Gerrel is the only one in the damn fleet that actually ACTS like an Admiral. Raan and Koris are politicians  with no clue on war. Xen is a quarian version of the Illusive Man. Tali is an Admiral only in name and is a wet noodle when it comes to being forceful against the others.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You are the one that takes this so personally that you feel a physilogical need to mispell the name of a fictional character over a petty grudge that doesn't even have any backing. THAT'S the childlish notion.
And note: you cast the first stone with a personal attack. Just for the record.

I feel no need.  I do it because I find it amusing that you and others get so worked up by it.

What personal attack did I launch at you?  Please don't tell me you consider my misspelling Gherel's name a personal attack?

No. I consider being told that I need to hug a real person as a personal attack on my social life. Remember that? Just a few pages ago? You cast the first stone, not me.
And now you seem to be the one getting off topic, no?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You are the one that feels the petty need to say a fictional character deserves spite that you throw at him. I likewise don't see any geth pinning medals on you for that. And AGAIN, I asked if you could be civil, you respond with this. See a pattern?

And AGAIN, that's my POINT. You do not believe ANYTHING is fact, denying even in-game codex and book/comic lore because it wasn't directly stated by the in-game characters. And you assume any character has a bias except Legion. THAT'S headcannon - refusing to acknowledge any form of CONFIRMED cannon that contridicts your own.

My words ARE based on fact that I have qouted and provided for you. And the simple thruth is that you refuse to see FACT as fact even when confirmed by the writers themselves.

Again with this, lol.  What was not civil in my post?  I don't see any insults.  I asked you why you take the misspelling of a fictional character's name so seriously. 

And once again, I already answered the question assuming the books are canon pages ago so I refuse nothing.  I stated my opinion that I don't think they still are canon but then still provided an answer assuming that they were.  So not sure why you keep crying about something you were already provided an answer to.

But likewise, why is there a need to feel so antagonistic to a fictional character? Did he insult you? Attack you? You are the one antagonizing the fictional character, not me.

And again, you don't see them as cannon IS headcannon verbatium. They are listed as actual cannon, written by the leads of the Mass Effect writing team: Drew Karpyshyn wrote the novels, and Mac Walters wrote the comics. Only one book wasn't written by them, and THAT was the only book not cannon: Mass Effect: Deception, which is now under full rewrite to macth cannon.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

No. I consider being told that I need to hug a real person as a personal attack on my social life. Remember that? Just a few pages ago? You cast the first stone, not me.
And now you seem to be the one getting off topic, no?

Where did I tell you that?  I responded to Khelish.  Your name was not mentioned at all.  It was a joke not a serious comment.  When you called me a ****** were you joking or being serious?

Does it bug you that I spell his name wrong.  If so why?

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But likewise, why is there a need to feel so antagonistic to a fictional character? Did he insult you? Attack you? You are the one antagonizing the fictional character, not me.

And again, you don't see them as cannon IS headcannon verbatium. They are listed as actual cannon, written by the leads of the Mass Effect writing team: Drew Karpyshyn wrote the novels, and Mac Walters wrote the comics. Only one book wasn't written by them, and THAT was the only book not cannon: Mass Effect: Deception, which is now under full rewrite to macth cannon.

Lol, you seriously just said I am antagonizing the fictional character as if Gherel can read this and get upset by it.

Once again, did I say my beliefs on that subject were canon?  If so, find the post where I said it.  I stated an opinion which is not canon.  If it was then it wouldn't be an opinion.  It would be fact.  I never claimed I was stating a fact.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Last I checked, the geth were listed as the biggest threat to organics before the Reapers came. They killed everyone that ever tried ti speak to them. What makes you think that anyone is going to consider sparing them a good idea. Tali gives no reason or cause, so Gerrel brushes it off as a child that is too close to a single geth. Raan doesn't even open the damn comm. Gerrel isn't even aware that the quarians were the one that drove the geth to side with the Reapers. Only Raan and Tali know this, and out of the two of them, only Tali is willing to trust Legion's word. To Gerrel's knowledge, the geth not caring about organics was the reason they sided with the Reapers - after all, their past actions regarding the killing of all that came to speak with them would seem to indicate no love for organics.

And AGAIN:
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper
invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for
nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under
Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
Anyone looking at this? Common sense would scream at them that these are people that hate your guts and want nothing to do with you. WHERE in the above list of geth actions would "common sense" tell you the geth are peaceful in any way? If anything, only a lack of common sense would make someone think these people wanted peace from looking at this list.
And you DON'T save Gerrel's ass until THAT MOMENT.  You saved Victus's ass on Menae, and he still didn't trust you enough to tell you about the bomb he stashed on Tuchanka that Cerberus dug up. And since you DIDN'T halt the geth's Reaper-controlled blockade of the Tikkun system, you HAVEN'T saved him yet. THIS ACTION RIGHT NOW is where you save him, by telling him the geth will stand down. He DOES trust you after you save his ass, which doesn't happen till RIGHT THEN.

How about when Victus disregads your requsets to learn about the Tuchanka Bomb. And to provide any form of relief to Earth unless you save Palaven too. Spicific enough?

And AGAIN, WRONG. Tali's fault for not giving information or reasoning. The geth gave themselves their anti-organic rep.

THEY are not the ones failing at grasping basic stuff. After all, you can't grasp that when a faction does nothing but bad things and never does anything to offset it, they get branded enemies, and that's on no one's shoulders but theirs. Gerrel is the only one in the damn fleet that actually ACTS like an Admiral. Raan and Koris are politicians  with no clue on war. Xen is a quarian version of the Illusive Man. Tali is an Admiral only in name and is a wet noodle when it comes to being forceful against the others.

Reciting this has nothing to do with my point.   This has to do with 3 stupid Quarian Admirals who apparently don't know how to communicate with each other.  There is no logical reason for these Admirals not to have communicated and avoided the extermination of the Quarians.

I really don't care which you consider to be the stupid one.  The fact is one or more of these buffoons get their people killed.  Why would I want an army whose leaders can't give basic f**king orders to each other when their entire civilization depends on it?

[milkytoast]

I are a terrible person if you choose the Geth over the Quarrians and then choose the destroy ending. That or your going for the most amount of allies killed achievement. It isn't a real achievement just a personal one.

[Ninja Stan]

Let's tone down the hostility and back-biting, please. We can disagree with each other without resorting to insults or defensive posturing. Thank you.

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...
1. What? It's not that hard to do yourself.  All you have to do is load a save that's before the geth Dreadnought, then talk to Tali in the War Room BEFORE you attack the Dreadnought.

Nope, too much work. You made the claim, you provide proof. But does it really matter? Leigon proves Tali's speculations wrong so it doesn't matter what Tali says beforehand.

Ask yourself this: WHY would the geth be having such trouble now? At the very least, it's been two months before th invasion that Legion cut contact. What else do you suppose it could be? Especally since there was a Reaper on Rannoch that somehow stumbled on a fortified bunker that was perfectly speced to size for it? That just happened to be near a large geth bunker/server? Too concidental, don't you think?
And Legion only ever says that the choic would have been unessessary, NOT that the geth would have refused. Legion never clarifies on weather or not the geth would have taken the offer.

This is nothing but speculation and opinions. Not facts. Why are the Geth having trouble with the Quarians? Because they were building a network to house all Geth and the Quarians attacked it. A huge blow that weakened them.  The Reaper was on Rannoch because the Geth let it in. Either the bunker already existed or they built one for it. Makes sense considering that they were allied with them. There is just no coincidence here and it just sounds like conspiracy theories. The Quarians attacked at the start of the game, that leaves ample amount of time for the Reapers to form a deal, present it, then station one on Rannoch. Or better yet, the one stationed on Rannoch could have been the one to deliever the deal and just stayed behind to issue the signal. This is not hard for AIs that have lived for billions of years. It's isn't hard for anyone, really.

Leigon says siding with the Reapers would have been unecessary if the Quarians didn't attack. Why would he need to say they would refuse? They obviously wouldn't refuse a deal with the Reapers. As they didn't. However, that does not prove that you are right about them making a deal with the Reapers prior to the Quarian attack.

It is simply your opinion and speculation with no facts to back it up.  You're free to continue to believe in this if you like. I don't mind headcanon but I don't get why this needs to be debated.

2.How So? It's the same thing Sovergien did. And it makes perfect sence since the geth are completely isolated by their own actions, so they have no where else to turn.  A perfect canidate for a proxy army. The Reapers remove a major threat AND get a large proxy forcre. Hackett himself says that he doubts the Reapers intented for the geth to fight them. Also, the fact that Reapers could get into the quarian-blockaded Tikkun system without being noticed is unlikely, as the geth say they didn't accept the offer until AFTER the megastructure was assaulted. Therefore, the quarians were already in Rannoch's system when the deal was offered. HOW did that destroyer get past the entire quarian fleet without being noticed? It makes much more sense if the thing was already on Rannoch when the quarians invaded the system.

Once again, nothing but a conspiracy theory. Soveriegn had Heretic Geth who worshipped Reapers at his beck and call. The same Geth who turned against their own kind for the Reapers. The same Geth Leigon is sent by the consensus to deal with. The same rules do not apply. The Geth were preparing to kill Reapers, they knew their freedom would be compromised by siding with them. If they fought the Quarians for freedom why would they just randomly hand it over to the Reapers for just no reason at all. Makes no sense, period. 

They were willing to hand their freedom over in exchange for their lives. That was their reason.

And AGAIN, where is your proof? They say they were prepping for war, but NOT that they intended to go on the march. The Rannoch War didn't take place till at least Priority: Tuchanka. Where were they when Palaven and Earth burned? Why didn't they reach out to the galaxy in the six month reprive between ME2 and ME3? In all likelyhood, the geth were planning to turtle up and wait out the war in isolation.

LOL!!! Are you seriously asking me to provide proof I have already provided multiple times? Leigon says so. Simple as that. The writers put it in there and no one in game disputes this claim. Now you want to say that they didn't intend to go on the March. March where? They were doing what every other race was doing, fortifying their own planet...albeit they do it before a Reaper invasion and not during like the rest of the idiots.

Are you really going to ask these ridiculous questions to prove a point? Why should they march to Palaven or Earth? But if you want to ask pointless questions to derail the discussion, then where were the Asari when Earth and Palaven were burning? Where were the Elcor? The Hanar? Krogan? Salarians? If not being there for Earth and Palavan is enough to make a race guilty of siding with the Reapers then you better be ready to charge everyone who weren't there or just didn't care. Oh yeah, the salarians thought the better plan were to avoid the war and......wait it out. I guess there was a hidden Reaper on their planet as well.

3. Wrong. Legion fully states that self-preservation took full hold because the geth now lacked the processing power to think through on their choices. He spifically states that self-preservation was the priority, not the consiquences.

The Geth took the first deal offered because they were desperate, it doesn't mean they didn't think about it. The fact that leigon states that the choice to join them was difficult pretty much says they at least thought about it, as a choice cannot be difficult if one isn't thinking about it.  You only believe they didn't think about it at all because they made a choice you disagree with. 

4.AGAIN, wrong. "Evidently" in here means Legion thinks that the REST OF THE GETH think that. Legion istelf DOES'T say that. It tells you that the REST OF THE GETH think it's "evidently" acceptible. He NEVER ONCE states that HE thinks that. Like I said, I wasn't the one streaching the words out.

Leigon is Geth and Geth are one. What part of this is hard for you to understand? Stop putting words in Leigon's mouth...head flashlight thingy or whatever. You are desperate to hang on to your opinion, head canon, or whatever you have going on but it is done. The in game dialouge does not support your claim.

No you weren't stretching words out, just attaching them to the wrong definition.

5. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
Remember this? There is NO TRACE of the "evedently" statement. It completely brushes off that the geth were desperate......blah.

I don't give two craps what the Geth VI says because this discussion has nothing, nada, ziltch to do with what it says or does not say. We are talking about what LEIGON says or does not say. Running to your Geth VI vid does not change what Leigon himself says nor does it change the meaning of his words. If you have an issue with it then take it with the writers or something. Geez.

6. Wrong. Legion NEVER denies that it's ashamed. It says that it "shouldn't apply here." That's tantimount to saying "I shouldn't feel guilt about it," yet never actually STATES that he doesn't feel guilty about it.
And if you want to get technical, it may feel guilty about BOTH things.
And in truth, I believe that BOTH Legion and Tali are ashamed about the paths they and their races took.

The discussion between Shepard and Leigon during that scene has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the Reapers. No amount of you splicing together dialouge will make it so. It is on a specific topic. Leigon hiding the Reaper upgrade. As for emotions and the Geth. The Geth don't feel shame, most certainly not the same way organics do anyway.

And okay, if you want to headcanon Leigon feeling guilt over what happened, that is fine, I dont get why you have to debate me about it as though it is fact. I'll just stick to what I know in game, and that is Tali feeling ashamed of the actions of her race. She should be.

[tevix]

@Hazegurl

Actually the geth/quarian war wasn't started at the beginning of ME3. ME3 takes place over several months, and the geth section is in the second half. You can also read in game in the spectre office that quarians on their pilgrimage have been buying equipment for war. This would have to be implemented before an attack.

I believe the argument that the reaper destroyer was on rannoch long before the quarians arrived. The reapers likely attempted an alliance with them, because, what have they to loose (the reapers, I mean)? So the geth took the destroyer in, fully capable of eliminating it if they chose to reject it's offer. When the quarians showed up and bombed their sphere, their view was narrowed (as legion states) and made it easier to arrive at the decision to accept the alliance. The only other explanation is that the reaper showed up after the quarians, and I just can't belive that would happen without them knowing.

I am also curious, if you don't believe legion is experiencing shame, why he chooses to hide the RC from shepard, and can provide no explanation as to why he did it.