4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

People do realize the Quarian attack started in the Far Rim right? We meet them in the Far Rim after they had pushed the Geth out of that system and back into the Veil.

So when the Quarians first attacked, the Geth moved resources out of the Veil and into th Far Rim where the attack was occuring. In the interim, Mr. Reaper simply sets up shop on the lightly defended Rannoch because the Geth typically on Rannoch were called to the front lines. Then when those Geth are pushed out of the Far Rim and retreat back to the Veil to Rannoch to prepare for the final push, who do they meet there, Mr. Reaper.

None of this requires the Reaper to be there all along. Mr. Reaper simply took advantage of the Geth being focused on the fighting in the Far Rim, came to the Veil through the back door and the Geth were either too busy trying to stave off extermination to notice or they did but were not about to fight a Reaper when they were busy trying to stave off extermination from those fun loving and peaceful Quarians.

The above is speculation that does not contradict anything anyone in the game said IMO.  This whole the Reapers were there before the Quarian attack is in direct contradiction to what Legion says repeatedly.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 07:16 .

[milkytoast]

I do like this debate, but we are forcing a snap judgement based on very little evidence of the worth of both species.

Were the Quarians originally a free democracy? Were the Quarians a group of slavers as in owning actual organic slaves as well? Did they have huge class divisions where the rich and or powerful could kill the poor if they wanted to?. Were the Geth created because the Rich thought the poor were too whiny?

Did the Geth ever develop art? Were the Geth going door to door exterminating all the Quarians men women and children, who were left behind? Did they force them to work to death because they felt it was justice? Did the Geth ever experiment on Quarians?

If Shepard can make peace with the Geth and Quarrians why had they not tried it in the last 300 years. (even though I think there might have been an obscure text about attempts at peace talks)

I could never make the choice between two species, I should never have that much power. If there were infinite choices and I was actually Shepard. I would have told Legion to not upload, to go settle on a new planet, explain that the Geth should evolve without Reaper assistance, and that I would try to stall the admirals so the geth could excape. But I think this would just result in the same thing as siding with the Quarrians really. I could live with condemning the Geth as long as I tried for peace but not the children on the Quarrian ships.

(I am trying to remove Tali out of this equation,because she was by far my favorite character in Mass Effect.) 

Modifié par milkytoast, 31 mars 2013 - 07:26 .

[tevix]

@MIlkytoast

Your post makes a lot of sense to me. And your name makes me want a glass of milk.

Does anyone know if peace is possible with tali alive but only the geth VI in play? Or legion alive but only Raan in play? I've never managed to get peace available in those circumstances.

[Hazegurl]

tevix wrote...

@Hazegurl

Actually the geth/quarian war wasn't started at the beginning of ME3. ME3 takes place over several months, and the geth section is in the second half. You can also read in game in the spectre office that quarians on their pilgrimage have been buying equipment for war. This would have to be implemented before an attack.

I believe the argument that the reaper destroyer was on rannoch long before the quarians arrived. The reapers likely attempted an alliance with them, because, what have they to loose (the reapers, I mean)? So the geth took the destroyer in, fully capable of eliminating it if they chose to reject it's offer. When the quarians showed up and bombed their sphere, their view was narrowed (as legion states) and made it easier to arrive at the decision to accept the alliance. The only other explanation is that the reaper showed up after the quarians, and I just can't belive that would happen without them knowing.

I am also curious, if you don't believe legion is experiencing shame, why he chooses to hide the RC from shepard, and can provide no explanation as to why he did it.

I read the spectre office letter at the start of ME3. I assumed they did not attack yet but was buying weapons then attacked sometime during the game and when we meet up with them mid game the war had been going on for a few months, or whatever the timeline was supposed to be between the start of the game and mid game.

I will stick to the arugment that the reaper was not on Rannoch until the Geth made a deal with it as IMO, it makes no sense for a reaper to be on Rannoch when Leigon goes to his people, say the reapers will attack, they believe him, and start planning to kill reapers. I just don't buy it. The reapers do not care about the Geth and the Geth have had issues with the reapers since ME1, enough to send a spy to gather intel on them, and enough for them to want the Heretics destoryed or reprogrammed. It makes no logical sense for the Geth, especially sans Heretics to welcome a reaper in their midsts for no reason at all. I don't know why the Quarians would know a reaper is landing on Rannoch. I doubt they were hovering the entire planet at all times. I'm sure they couldn't just attack and stay there. I'm sure the Geth fought back or if not, the Quarians would be too busy attacking to notice one reaper.

I don't think it is the same shame organics feel. I believe he knew Shepard would be angry and mistrust him. Not actual feelings of shame by having the upgrade. Leigon always corrected Shepard whenever s/he placed emotion on the Geth.  I don't even think feelings would come into place for them until after the upload of the code, I  think.

[remydat]

Oh and I am playing the Geth missions again and Legion told Shepard that the Geth went to the Reapers voluntarily. Shepard orginally speculates that the Reapers had gained control of the Geth against their will. So it would be pretty dumb of Legion to volunteer the truth when he could have accepted Shepard's speculation.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@MIlkytoast

Your post makes a lot of sense to me. And your name makes me want a glass of milk.

Does anyone know if peace is possible with tali alive but only the geth VI in play? Or legion alive but only Raan in play? I've never managed to get peace available in those circumstances.

Tali and Legion both have to be alive and have to be loyal as far as I am aware.  After that there are various other decisions that gain you points but it would be pretty hard to screw up.

[tevix]

@Hazegurl

Gerrel says that the geth were pushed back to the home system when the reaper signal began broadcasting. This requires either the reaper snuck in mid-battle or was there before the fight began. Legion also tells you that there was a base placed on rannoch for short range control. The reaper was in a heavily guarded facility in a hole just the right size for it. This all seems highly convenient. In addition the geth dreadnought had legion hooked up to specialized hardware in the core. I don't see that they had time to set all this up mid-battle. These seem like things set up before the quarians arrived. I suspect though that at this point we're not going to agree.

If you feel the RC has the capacity to give the geth emotions...why is it a stretch to believe legion (who had the RC) could be experiencing emotions, even in limited form?

[Hazegurl]

tevix wrote...

@MIlkytoast

Your post makes a lot of sense to me. And your name makes me want a glass of milk.

Does anyone know if peace is possible with tali alive but only the geth VI in play? Or legion alive but only Raan in play? I've never managed to get peace available in those circumstances.

I think Leigon and Tali(non exiled) plus peace between them in ME2 is the magical mix for peace. I do agree with the poster above, it is too much to ask for one person to decide the fate of two races. But the way I see it, the Geth are more useful. The Geth can fight Reapers for centuries, build the crucible and have it ready to fire next time, if we fail this cycle. We also don't need Liara's little holographic pods as the Geth would be loaded with info on the Reapers. The fact that they were prepared ahead of everyone scored major points with me. The opportunity is just too great to pass on. The Quarian race dying is a small price to pay for that possiblity. Just like the batarians dying is a smal price for delaying the Reaper invasion. 

[tevix]

@Remy

I will respond to this.

I find it odd that you don't have the option for peace, or even to attempt it without tali & legion in play. Why can't shepard make the same statements he does in the optimal setting, but get a differant result?

Say you still tell gerrel about the code, or that the geth don't want to fight and the quarians stand down. I don't get what tali or raan's presence has to do with giving out information. There could be outcomes where the quarians stand down, and the geth attack anyway. Or the VI tries to stop you from giving out the information. Or without tali you lack the votes to get the quarians to stand down, so the qurians attack anyway.

Let me throw this one out there: If you could tell gerrel to stand down succesfully, but the geth VI says it will use the code to end the quarian threat once and for all, what would you do?

What if the VI tried to stop you from telling gerrel about the RC?
What if when you said the geth don't want to fight the VI said it has no intentions for peace with the quarians?

In the situation that actually exists, you say you would pick the geth because gerrel refuses to stand down. I"m just curious what you would do if the above situations were what actually could happeN.

[milkytoast]

Hazegurl wrote...

I think Leigon and Tali(non exiled) plus peace between them in ME2 is the magical mix for peace. I do agree with the poster above, it is too much to ask for one person to decide the fate of two races. But the way I see it, the Geth are more useful. The Geth can fight Reapers for centuries, build the crucible and have it ready to fire next time, if we fail this cycle. We also don't need Liara's little holographic pods as the Geth would be loaded with info on the Reapers. The fact that they were prepared ahead of everyone scored major points with me. The opportunity is just too great to pass on. The Quarian race dying is a small price to pay for that possiblity. Just like the batarians dying is a smal price for delaying the Reaper invasion. 

Actually the Reapers...  uh...  Ascend or Reap both organic and synthetics, I forget when they say it, but I know the star kid says it.  Otherwise there would be other robotic civilizations from other cycles.  

[Hazegurl]

tevix wrote...

@Hazegurl

Gerrel says that the geth were pushed back to the home system when the reaper signal began broadcasting. This requires either the reaper snuck in mid-battle or was there before the fight began. Legion also tells you that there was a base placed on rannoch for short range control. The reaper was in a heavily guarded facility in a hole just the right size for it. This all seems highly convenient. In addition the geth dreadnought had legion hooked up to specialized hardware in the core. I don't see that they had time to set all this up mid-battle. These seem like things set up before the quarians arrived. I suspect though that at this point we're not going to agree.

If you feel the RC has the capacity to give the geth emotions...why is it a stretch to believe legion (who had the RC) could be experiencing emotions, even in limited form?

The reapers are AI that have existed for billions of years, its not hard to believe that they can land on Rannoch undetected by the Quarians and create their set up with Leigon attached. If the war had been going on for months then I doubt it would take that long to set up. The facility could have been built for any reason and the reaper chose it. Considering how fast reapers seem to repair the mass relays at the end of the game, it is not difficult to also believe that they could have built that hole. Regardless, Leigon tells us how the deal took place between the Geth and Reapers and he also tells us when the deal was made. Everything else is just speculations and opinions. I just disagree with the claim that the Reaper was already there.

It is my speculation that it does. I'm not 100% sure on that claim so I go by Leigon's word when Shepard adds emotion to his actions.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

No. I consider being told that I need to hug a real person as a personal attack on my social life. Remember that? Just a few pages ago? You cast the first stone, not me.
And now you seem to be the one getting off topic, no?

Where did I tell you that?  I responded to Khelish.  Your name was not mentioned at all.  It was a joke not a serious comment.  When you called me a ****** were you joking or being serious?

Does it bug you that I spell his name wrong.  If so why?

You were speaking of me, correct? That was still an insult, you know.
And it bugs me that you anthropomorphize a fictional character to the point that you spell his name wrong just for the sake of scorning said fictional character. You accuse me and others of being "too serious" when you do something as literally childish as that.

[Hazegurl]

milkytoast wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

I think Leigon and Tali(non exiled) plus peace between them in ME2 is the magical mix for peace. I do agree with the poster above, it is too much to ask for one person to decide the fate of two races. But the way I see it, the Geth are more useful. The Geth can fight Reapers for centuries, build the crucible and have it ready to fire next time, if we fail this cycle. We also don't need Liara's little holographic pods as the Geth would be loaded with info on the Reapers. The fact that they were prepared ahead of everyone scored major points with me. The opportunity is just too great to pass on. The Quarian race dying is a small price to pay for that possiblity. Just like the batarians dying is a smal price for delaying the Reaper invasion. 

Actually the Reapers...  uh...  Ascend or Reap both organic and synthetics, I forget when they say it, but I know the star kid says it.  Otherwise there would be other robotic civilizations from other cycles.  

Well, considering the Prothans, it doesn't surpise me that no old AIs exist.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I will respond to this.

I find it odd that you don't have the option for peace, or even to attempt it without tali & legion in play. Why can't shepard make the same statements he does in the optimal setting, but get a differant result?

Say you still tell gerrel about the code, or that the geth don't want to fight and the quarians stand down. I don't get what tali or raan's presence has to do with giving out information. There could be outcomes where the quarians stand down, and the geth attack anyway. Or the VI tries to stop you from giving out the information. Or without tali you lack the votes to get the quarians to stand down, so the qurians attack anyway.

Let me throw this one out there: If you could tell gerrel to stand down succesfully, but the geth VI says it will use the code to end the quarian threat once and for all, what would you do?

What if the VI tried to stop you from telling gerrel about the RC?
What if when you said the geth don't want to fight the VI said it has no intentions for peace with the quarians?

In the situation that actually exists, you say you would pick the geth because gerrel refuses to stand down. I"m just curious what you would do if the above situations were what actually could happeN.

Because it is a game.  There is no logical reason IMO except the writers wanted to create conditions for peace to be possible and decided that Tali and Legion survivng and being loyal which would have included you talking them down when they have their confrontation is one of those condtions.  The game designers wanted that to be important and so made Tali and Legion necessary for peace. 

Just like I just f**ked myself because I forgot that if you save the miners during Zaeed's loyalty mission that you don't gain his loyalty unless you have a high enough paragon level.  I forgot about it, didn't realise it until the final mission in ME2, didn't want to go back and so Zaeed must die during the Volus Ambassdor mission.  There is no logical reason for his not being loyal to result in his death.  They just did that so that decisions in ME2 could have meaning in ME3.  

If the Quarians stand down and the Geth VI insists on trying to wipe them out then the Geth die.  Once again, I have said since like page 15 or so that my decision is based on who I deem to be the Aggressors.  In that scenario it would be the Geth VI.  All this other stuff is largely irrelevant to me.  A court doesn't decide innocence or guilt based on who has cute little children.  Who committed the crime, end of story.  That's all I need to know.  

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But likewise, why is there a need to feel so antagonistic to a fictional character? Did he insult you? Attack you? You are the one antagonizing the fictional character, not me.

And again, you don't see them as cannon IS headcannon verbatium. They are listed as actual cannon, written by the leads of the Mass Effect writing team: Drew Karpyshyn wrote the novels, and Mac Walters wrote the comics. Only one book wasn't written by them, and THAT was the only book not cannon: Mass Effect: Deception, which is now under full rewrite to macth cannon.

Lol, you seriously just said I am antagonizing the fictional character as if Gherel can read this and get upset by it.

Once again, did I say my beliefs on that subject were canon?  If so, find the post where I said it.  I stated an opinion which is not canon.  If it was then it wouldn't be an opinion.  It would be fact.  I never claimed I was stating a fact.

But you seem to believe just that. Why else anthropomorphize him to such an extent?

And again, the problem is that you don't believe ACTUAL FACT is factual. You state that you do not believe the books are cannon when they indeed are.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 mars 2013 - 07:54 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Last I checked, the geth were listed as the biggest threat to organics before the Reapers came. They killed everyone that ever tried ti speak to them. What makes you think that anyone is going to consider sparing them a good idea. Tali gives no reason or cause, so Gerrel brushes it off as a child that is too close to a single geth. Raan doesn't even open the damn comm. Gerrel isn't even aware that the quarians were the one that drove the geth to side with the Reapers. Only Raan and Tali know this, and out of the two of them, only Tali is willing to trust Legion's word. To Gerrel's knowledge, the geth not caring about organics was the reason they sided with the Reapers - after all, their past actions regarding the killing of all that came to speak with them would seem to indicate no love for organics.

And AGAIN:
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper
invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for
nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under
Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
Anyone looking at this? Common sense would scream at them that these are people that hate your guts and want nothing to do with you. WHERE in the above list of geth actions would "common sense" tell you the geth are peaceful in any way? If anything, only a lack of common sense would make someone think these people wanted peace from looking at this list.
And you DON'T save Gerrel's ass until THAT MOMENT.  You saved Victus's ass on Menae, and he still didn't trust you enough to tell you about the bomb he stashed on Tuchanka that Cerberus dug up. And since you DIDN'T halt the geth's Reaper-controlled blockade of the Tikkun system, you HAVEN'T saved him yet. THIS ACTION RIGHT NOW is where you save him, by telling him the geth will stand down. He DOES trust you after you save his ass, which doesn't happen till RIGHT THEN.

How about when Victus disregads your requsets to learn about the Tuchanka Bomb. And to provide any form of relief to Earth unless you save Palaven too. Spicific enough?

And AGAIN, WRONG. Tali's fault for not giving information or reasoning. The geth gave themselves their anti-organic rep.

THEY are not the ones failing at grasping basic stuff. After all, you can't grasp that when a faction does nothing but bad things and never does anything to offset it, they get branded enemies, and that's on no one's shoulders but theirs. Gerrel is the only one in the damn fleet that actually ACTS like an Admiral. Raan and Koris are politicians  with no clue on war. Xen is a quarian version of the Illusive Man. Tali is an Admiral only in name and is a wet noodle when it comes to being forceful against the others.

Reciting this has nothing to do with my point.   This has to do with 3 stupid Quarian Admirals who apparently don't know how to communicate with each other.  There is no logical reason for these Admirals not to have communicated and avoided the extermination of the Quarians.

I really don't care which you consider to be the stupid one.  The fact is one or more of these buffoons get their people killed.  Why would I want an army whose leaders can't give basic f**king orders to each other when their entire civilization depends on it?

And AGAIN, that's the point: you can no longer try to pin all this on Gerrel when Tali/Raan are the just as at fault. And Gerrel is understandible because he has every reason to believe the geth are purly hostile to organics. That post has EVERYTHING to do with the point, because it shows the things Gerrel has seen: things that tell him nothing about geth wanting peace with organics. Those events only paint the geth in a worse and worse light, to the point where a sudden attempt to call off the attack sounds utterly retarded. Tali is a deer in headlights who doesn't deal with stressful situations that well, and Raan is simply a wet noodle that doesn't even try to contact the fleet.

And again, the bottom line is Gerrel is working of the information he has. The fault is on Tali and Raan for communication failure. Gerrel isn't at fault for pressing his advantage against an avowed enemy of the galaxy.

[tevix]

@Remy

That's...all I was going for. Just trying to create friendly discussion.

@Haegurl
Youtube
Mass effect 3: part 77 - 'Meeting the quarians' 17:30-17:40
I can't provide a link because I'm on 360 and typing it doesn't seem to work.

Gerrel says that they started the war 17 days ago. Take from that what you will.

Also, if you speculate that legion DOES experience emotion, than why can't it experience shame about having the RC, even if it doesn't realize it? You were contending earlier that it wasn't shame.

I know you said you take what legion says but, maybe it doesn't even realize it's experiencing emotions.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

You were speaking of me, correct? That was still an insult, you know.
And it bugs me that you anthropomorphize a fictional character to the point that you spell his name wrong just for the sake of scorning said fictional character. You accuse me and others of being "too serious" when you do something as literally childish as that.

No I was making a general joke about people getting worked up about my taking shots at a fictional character.  Just like when you told me to stop being a ****** when I made a joke about the Quarians trying to shut down the Geth and 2 billion of them getting logged off.

This is not real life Silver.  I can make jokes and talk crap about fictional characters because they are fictional.  Just like people can love serial killers or villains in books, tv and other media because they are not real.  That is the point of fiction since the time of the Greeks who came up with a word for it catharsis.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And again, the problem is that you don't believe ACTUAL FACT is factual. You state that you do not believe the books are cannon when they indeed are.

That is not a problem.  You are not going to die if I think elements of a story changed.  In any event, it is irrelevant becuase once again, I answered the question assuming they are canon.  So why do you continue to talk about something that is not relevant for the discussion? 

[S.A.K]

milkytoast wrote...

I do like this debate, but we are forcing a snap judgement based on very little evidence of the worth of both species.

Were the Quarians originally a free democracy? Were the Quarians a group of slavers as in owning actual organic slaves as well? Did they have huge class divisions where the rich and or powerful could kill the poor if they wanted to?. Were the Geth created because the Rich thought the poor were too whiny?

Did the Geth ever develop art? Were the Geth going door to door exterminating all the Quarians men women and children, who were left behind? Did they force them to work to death because they felt it was justice? Did the Geth ever experiment on Quarians?

If Shepard can make peace with the Geth and Quarrians why had they not tried it in the last 300 years. (even though I think there might have been an obscure text about attempts at peace talks)

I could never make the choice between two species, I should never have that much power. If there were infinite choices and I was actually Shepard. I would have told Legion to not upload, to go settle on a new planet, explain that the Geth should evolve without Reaper assistance, and that I would try to stall the admirals so the geth could excape. But I think this would just result in the same thing as siding with the Quarrians really. I could live with condemning the Geth as long as I tried for peace but not the children on the Quarrian ships.

(I am trying to remove Tali out of this equation,because she was by far my favorite character in Mass Effect.) 

Agree with everything you said. In reality, I would never let Legion upload that reaper code. That thing could be hella dangarous. If peace is not possible, Geth are free to stand up to the Quarians as they are able. If they get screwed, it's not Shepards fault.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

And AGAIN, that's the point: you can no longer try to pin all this on Gerrel when Tali/Raan are the just as at fault. And Gerrel is understandible because he has every reason to believe the geth are purly hostile to organics. That post has EVERYTHING to do with the point, because it shows the things Gerrel has seen: things that tell him nothing about geth wanting peace with organics. Those events only paint the geth in a worse and worse light, to the point where a sudden attempt to call off the attack sounds utterly retarded. Tali is a deer in headlights who doesn't deal with stressful situations that well, and Raan is simply a wet noodle that doesn't even try to contact the fleet.

And again, the bottom line is Gerrel is working of the information he has. The fault is on Tali and Raan for communication failure. Gerrel isn't at fault for pressing his advantage against an avowed enemy of the galaxy.

You confuse my talking sh*t about Gherel for sh*ts and giggles with me caring to pin the sole blame on him.  I really don't care which Quarian you choose to blame as.  The fact is one or more of the stupid Quarians gets everyone killed.  And this is not some great revelation.  I said this to you already on page 61. 

http://social.biowar...dex/16294666/61

remydat wrote...



I don't care what ME2 or two organics thing the Geth will do.  What did the Geth do in this scene?  Would the Geth in this scene have attacked if Gherel had stopped.  Telling me something from ME2 when circumstances have changed is pointless.  

Sorry, either Gherel is the Quarian who causes the downfall of his people or Tali is for not sharing the intel that the Geth will destroy them.  She told him to stand down.  She didn't tell him way.  You and I both know the reason Tali or Shepard doesn't tell Gherel is not because they are pricks or stupid but because it is a quirk of the game that if you don't make the right decisions you don't get the paragon or renegade option to do it.  So give me a break trying to use that as an excuse.  If you want to blame Tali for the death of her people go right ahead.  Either way they are dead because of a Quarian.

So yeah why are we still talking about this.  The Quarian Admirals are stupid.  They can't deliver basically communication when their entire race is counting on it.  So yeah I vote for the Geth and their ability to communicate with each other at the speed of light.  I honestly don't know how they brush their teeth in the morning.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Agree with everything you said. In reality, I would never let Legion upload that reaper code. That thing could be hella dangarous. If peace is not possible, Geth are free to stand up to the Quarians as they are able. If they get screwed, it's not Shepards fault.

Well I guess it is the Geth's fault for not experimenting on dismembered Quarians to develop a weapon that screws with the orgnanic Central Nervous System.

Note to future synthetics, please be sure to carry out questionable experiments on organic subjects so that if you are attacked amidst a potential galatic apocalypse and are left to fend for yourself, you can match the weapon the organics created by experimenting on your dismembered people.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
1. What? It's not that hard to do yourself.  All you have to do is load a save that's before the geth Dreadnought, then talk to Tali in the War Room BEFORE you attack the Dreadnought.

Nope, too much work. You made the claim, you provide proof. But does it really matter? Leigon proves Tali's speculations wrong so it doesn't matter what Tali says beforehand.

Ask yourself this: WHY would the geth be having such trouble now? At the very least, it's been two months before th invasion that Legion cut contact. What else do you suppose it could be? Especally since there was a Reaper on Rannoch that somehow stumbled on a fortified bunker that was perfectly speced to size for it? That just happened to be near a large geth bunker/server? Too concidental, don't you think?
And Legion only ever says that the choic would have been unessessary, NOT that the geth would have refused. Legion never clarifies on weather or not the geth would have taken the offer.

This is nothing but speculation and opinions. Not facts. Why are the Geth having trouble with the Quarians? Because they were building a network to house all Geth and the Quarians attacked it. A huge blow that weakened them.  The Reaper was on Rannoch because the Geth let it in. Either the bunker already existed or they built one for it. Makes sense considering that they were allied with them. There is just no coincidence here and it just sounds like conspiracy theories. The Quarians attacked at the start of the game, that leaves ample amount of time for the Reapers to form a deal, present it, then station one on Rannoch. Or better yet, the one stationed on Rannoch could have been the one to deliever the deal and just stayed behind to issue the signal. This is not hard for AIs that have lived for billions of years. It's isn't hard for anyone, really.

Leigon says siding with the Reapers would have been unecessary if the Quarians didn't attack. Why would he need to say they would refuse? They obviously wouldn't refuse a deal with the Reapers. As they didn't. However, that does not prove that you are right about them making a deal with the Reapers prior to the Quarian attack.

It is simply your opinion and speculation with no facts to back it up.  You're free to continue to believe in this if you like. I don't mind headcanon but I don't get why this needs to be debated.

2.How So? It's the same thing Sovergien did. And it makes perfect sence since the geth are completely isolated by their own actions, so they have no where else to turn.  A perfect canidate for a proxy army. The Reapers remove a major threat AND get a large proxy forcre. Hackett himself says that he doubts the Reapers intented for the geth to fight them. Also, the fact that Reapers could get into the quarian-blockaded Tikkun system without being noticed is unlikely, as the geth say they didn't accept the offer until AFTER the megastructure was assaulted. Therefore, the quarians were already in Rannoch's system when the deal was offered. HOW did that destroyer get past the entire quarian fleet without being noticed? It makes much more sense if the thing was already on Rannoch when the quarians invaded the system.

Once again, nothing but a conspiracy theory. Soveriegn had Heretic Geth who worshipped Reapers at his beck and call. The same Geth who turned against their own kind for the Reapers. The same Geth Leigon is sent by the consensus to deal with. The same rules do not apply. The Geth were preparing to kill Reapers, they knew their freedom would be compromised by siding with them. If they fought the Quarians for freedom why would they just randomly hand it over to the Reapers for just no reason at all. Makes no sense, period. 

They were willing to hand their freedom over in exchange for their lives. That was their reason.

And AGAIN, where is your proof? They say they were prepping for war, but NOT that they intended to go on the march. The Rannoch War didn't take place till at least Priority: Tuchanka. Where were they when Palaven and Earth burned? Why didn't they reach out to the galaxy in the six month reprive between ME2 and ME3? In all likelyhood, the geth were planning to turtle up and wait out the war in isolation.

LOL!!! Are you seriously asking me to provide proof I have already provided multiple times? Leigon says so. Simple as that. The writers put it in there and no one in game disputes this claim. Now you want to say that they didn't intend to go on the March. March where? They were doing what every other race was doing, fortifying their own planet...albeit they do it before a Reaper invasion and not during like the rest of the idiots.

Are you really going to ask these ridiculous questions to prove a point? Why should they march to Palaven or Earth? But if you want to ask pointless questions to derail the discussion, then where were the Asari when Earth and Palaven were burning? Where were the Elcor? The Hanar? Krogan? Salarians? If not being there for Earth and Palavan is enough to make a race guilty of siding with the Reapers then you better be ready to charge everyone who weren't there or just didn't care. Oh yeah, the salarians thought the better plan were to avoid the war and......wait it out. I guess there was a hidden Reaper on their planet as well.

3. Wrong. Legion fully states that self-preservation took full hold because the geth now lacked the processing power to think through on their choices. He spifically states that self-preservation was the priority, not the consiquences.

The Geth took the first deal offered because they were desperate, it doesn't mean they didn't think about it. The fact that leigon states that the choice to join them was difficult pretty much says they at least thought about it, as a choice cannot be difficult if one isn't thinking about it.  You only believe they didn't think about it at all because they made a choice you disagree with. 

4.AGAIN, wrong. "Evidently" in here means Legion thinks that the REST OF THE GETH think that. Legion istelf DOES'T say that. It tells you that the REST OF THE GETH think it's "evidently" acceptible. He NEVER ONCE states that HE thinks that. Like I said, I wasn't the one streaching the words out.

Leigon is Geth and Geth are one. What part of this is hard for you to understand? Stop putting words in Leigon's mouth...head flashlight thingy or whatever. You are desperate to hang on to your opinion, head canon, or whatever you have going on but it is done. The in game dialouge does not support your claim.

No you weren't stretching words out, just attaching them to the wrong definition.

5. www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSZ1b8c1YQ0
Remember this? There is NO TRACE of the "evedently" statement. It completely brushes off that the geth were desperate......blah.

I don't give two craps what the Geth VI says because this discussion has nothing, nada, ziltch to do with what it says or does not say. We are talking about what LEIGON says or does not say. Running to your Geth VI vid does not change what Leigon himself says nor does it change the meaning of his words. If you have an issue with it then take it with the writers or something. Geez.

6. Wrong. Legion NEVER denies that it's ashamed. It says that it "shouldn't apply here." That's tantimount to saying "I shouldn't feel guilt about it," yet never actually STATES that he doesn't feel guilty about it.
And if you want to get technical, it may feel guilty about BOTH things.
And in truth, I believe that BOTH Legion and Tali are ashamed about the paths they and their races took.

The discussion between Shepard and Leigon during that scene has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the Reapers. No amount of you splicing together dialouge will make it so. It is on a specific topic. Leigon hiding the Reaper upgrade. As for emotions and the Geth. The Geth don't feel shame, most certainly not the same way organics do anyway.

And okay, if you want to headcanon Leigon feeling guilt over what happened, that is fine, I dont get why you have to debate me about it as though it is fact. I'll just stick to what I know in game, and that is Tali feeling ashamed of the actions of her race. She should be.

1. Actually, Legion dosn't prove Tali's speculations wrong at all. I mean, look at the facts: A fortified base that is perfectly scoped for the Reaper, with a blast-shield, and a geth dreadnought with Reaper tech installed in the drive core. Also, that the quarians pushed the geth back the the home system before the signal started broadcasting, and that the Reaper was somehow already on Rannoch well before the invasion reached the home system, and everything points to Tali's speculation being right.
Also, too much work? Really? You don't have ANY saves that are prior to the geth dreadnought?

2. And again, the Reapers were in-system when this happened. According to the discription of the "Geth Debris Field" on the map of the Tikkun system (Rannoch's system) the destruction of the megastructure was interrupted before it could be finished. Therefore, the Reapers gave the geth the upgrades almost instantiniously after the megastructure was bombed. HOW is that possible, unless the Reaper was already set up well before the invasion? And 17 days is far too short to build a binker that can perfectly house a Reaper Destroyer. So YES, there IS concidence - far too much of it to be natural. And the quarians didn't attack at the start of the game. They were still purchasing materials and calling people back when you reach the Citadel. Therefore, the attack actually took place sometime around Priority: Tuchanka. So in truth, there isn't any of that ample time you talk about. Not at all.

And why wouldn't he? He never once confirms that the geth weren't considering the offer beforehand. Or if they were leaning to it regardless of needing to. Just because they wouldn't have needed to doesn't me they didn't want to. And from what Legion says, there is nothing suggesting they weren't considering the offer long beforehand. It would certinly explain the geth's absence when Earth and Palaven started burning.

So no, it's a bit more then simple speculation, since there is alot that does in fact cooberate it. It's hardly headcannon.

3. And the Heretics followed Sovergien because they worshiped what Sovergien was, not what it did or intended. They wanted Sovergien's upgrades - a Reaper body for them to upload into. And Legion actually was not sent out to deal with the Heretics. Legion left the Veil to find and observe Shepard, because the geth were facinated by the organic that killed a "God." Shepard was Legion's target. The Heretics had absolutly nothing to do with Legion until two years later, when they learned of the virus Sovergien left them. They only cared when they were threatened. (Something the Council and geth have in common: Don't get off your ass and do something unless it affects you)
Legion says the geth were prepping to resist them. But I recall no statement that the geth intended to aid the other races, or leave the Veil at all. If anything, they were going to turtle up again. They likely had no intent of actually involving themselves in the wider conflict, instead playing defense and riding out the war. After all, if that wasn't their intent, wouldn't they have started fighting the Reapers when they first arrived?

4. No, you didn't. PLAIN and SIMPLE, you didn't.
They plan to fight, but WHERE was there ever a mention what-so-ever that they were going to come out of the Perceus Veil and fight alongside the other races?  All that is ever said is "the geth were prepping for war." Nothing that says they were going to aid the other races. And again, Legion tells Tali the geth were having trouble "reaching consensis" months before the invasion, so no, the geth were not being productive: they were losing it just like all the others were.  And there is an improtant fact that you are not considering at all:
What's the point of going out since they are branded enemies of the galaxy ? That's someting you failed to account for: the geth are already assumed by everyone to already BE allies of the Reapers. So they couldn't aid the fight anyway, could they?

Also, THESE are the reasons.
The elcor were already fighting, according to Hackett, and being opressesd as the Reapers pushed to Thessia.
Reapers took the volus homeworld in the first wave against the turians and their allies.
The asari were already the Reapers prime targets and ties up the same.
The Hanar don't have any form of fleet that could take on Reapers.
The krogan do not HAVE any fleet, so they need allies to fight, which they didn't have back then.
The salarians were the selfish ones, sticking to Sur'Kesh.
The quarians were prepping to reclaim their homeword, as they can't survive the war without a self-sustaining world of their own.
Out of all the races you listed, guess which ones are completely free?
The Salarians.... and the Geth. The salarians state their intent to avoid the war completely. The geth were likely planning to do the same. But unlike the salarians, the geth are largely shunned thanks to their own isolationsim, and the only people that are willing to accpet them are the Reapers.
Do you see how the geth's own isolationism left them with no allies to turn to?

5. I just find it hard to believe the geth would make that choice unless it was done rashly and without thinking. Legion says that their "views dimmed" and survival took presidence. That just seems to indicate that the geth panciked and took whatever they were offered without figuring the long-term ramafactions. After all, with the quarians attacking them, I doubt they could devote that much processing power to thinging in the long term, right?

6. But that's not true. Legion had to physically return to geth space to present it's "proof" that the Reapers were returning. If they were all the same mind, Legion would never have needed to return to geth space in order to present it's proof - it should have been capable of doing so wirelessly. Instead, it had to physically return to the Perceus Veil. Also, if they were the same, Legion would never have been able to split from the geth's decision to join with the Reapers. Or oppose them at all. There is even a Codex entry that spicifically states that all geth being the same is explisitly not true.

ME2: Codex Entry: Secondary Codex: Geth: Heretics.
This entry spicifically lists that:
this schism suggest that
individual geth possess more free will and perhaps even personality than
previously suspected. Without such individuality, no geth could have
deviated from the group decision to join or reject Saren's mission.
There could not have been a division.
Note the underlined. The geth are a mass of individuals, not a hive mind. Otherwise, there would never have even been a Heretic split. So no, I'm not streaching the words at all.

7. But it DOES matter. Because the Geth V.I. is a template of what all other geth besides Legion are like. You wanted to know what the other geth are like? The Geth V.I. is a template of what the rest of the geth believe. Comparing the two IS the same thing as comparing Legion's views to the rest of the geth.

8. But geth do have emotions, don't they? I mean, as far as I can tell, Legion DOES have emotions, but they aren't realized till near the end. It simply doesn't understand them. Perhaps doesn't even know they are emotions or drives. The geth are living beings aren't they? Living beings have feelings. Emotions. Saying otherwise is like disregarding Legion as a living being. He has feelings. In the Geth Server, he spicifically admits to feeling admiration to the organic concept of being sustained by hope in desperate times. And the fact that he admits to being ashamed at all is indication. He says the upgrades are a personal matter, to which Shepard says Legion was ahsamed of the upgrades. Legion doesn't deny this.
Why do you think Legion is incapable of emotion?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I will respond to this.

I find it odd that you don't have the option for peace, or even to attempt it without tali & legion in play. Why can't shepard make the same statements he does in the optimal setting, but get a differant result?

Say you still tell gerrel about the code, or that the geth don't want to fight and the quarians stand down. I don't get what tali or raan's presence has to do with giving out information. There could be outcomes where the quarians stand down, and the geth attack anyway. Or the VI tries to stop you from giving out the information. Or without tali you lack the votes to get the quarians to stand down, so the qurians attack anyway.

Let me throw this one out there: If you could tell gerrel to stand down succesfully, but the geth VI says it will use the code to end the quarian threat once and for all, what would you do?

What if the VI tried to stop you from telling gerrel about the RC?
What if when you said the geth don't want to fight the VI said it has no intentions for peace with the quarians?

In the situation that actually exists, you say you would pick the geth because gerrel refuses to stand down. I"m just curious what you would do if the above situations were what actually could happeN.

Because it is a game.  There is no logical reason IMO except the writers wanted to create conditions for peace to be possible and decided that Tali and Legion survivng and being loyal which would have included you talking them down when they have their confrontation is one of those condtions.  The game designers wanted that to be important and so made Tali and Legion necessary for peace. 

Just like I just f**ked myself because I forgot that if you save the miners during Zaeed's loyalty mission that you don't gain his loyalty unless you have a high enough paragon level.  I forgot about it, didn't realise it until the final mission in ME2, didn't want to go back and so Zaeed must die during the Volus Ambassdor mission.  There is no logical reason for his not being loyal to result in his death.  They just did that so that decisions in ME2 could have meaning in ME3.  

If the Quarians stand down and the Geth VI insists on trying to wipe them out then the Geth die.  Once again, I have said since like page 15 or so that my decision is based on who I deem to be the Aggressors.  In that scenario it would be the Geth VI.  All this other stuff is largely irrelevant to me.  A court doesn't decide innocence or guilt based on who has cute little children.  Who committed the crime, end of story.  That's all I need to know.  

Again, prejudiced. If you don't even care about the cause and circumstance, you can never be qualified to make proper judgement of any kind.
The geth brought their fate on top of themselves by making themselves out as galactic enemy #1 and not doing a thing to change it. You can't prosicute someone for attacking a wanted criminal. Which the geth are by Council law, and by the decleration of war the Alliance and Council still have against them. Therefore, any Court would rule in favor of the invasion, because the geth not being hostile is NOT a known fact.
So acting on so little information will always result in a biased, incompleate or prejudiced picture.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

You were speaking of me, correct? That was still an insult, you know.
And it bugs me that you anthropomorphize a fictional character to the point that you spell his name wrong just for the sake of scorning said fictional character. You accuse me and others of being "too serious" when you do something as literally childish as that.

No I was making a general joke about people getting worked up about my taking shots at a fictional character.  Just like when you told me to stop being a ****** when I made a joke about the Quarians trying to shut down the Geth and 2 billion of them getting logged off.

This is not real life Silver.  I can make jokes and talk crap about fictional characters because they are fictional.  Just like people can love serial killers or villains in books, tv and other media because they are not real.  That is the point of fiction since the time of the Greeks who came up with a word for it catharsis.

You were again anthromoporphizeing a race with such prejudcied terms, yet accusing everyone else of being childish. Don't you see the contridiction?