4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Ok I thought about it for a bit...

Only things I can see from that is.
1. Geth are not that bad and I agree.
2. Some quarians are rasist towards Geth, which they have good reason to be so. None of the Quarians from MW are still alive. Only 17million out of billions are still alive and those are suffering for 300 years because of the Geth. They are still holding their planet which get have almost no use of and kills anyone who comes close.

Point is that Geth have done next to nothing to show they are open for peace. actually they have done the opposite by letting the Heretics run free and almost destroy the galaxy and rest of the Geth do nothing about them untill their own exsistance is threatened. Hell, without Legion even you won't know about the "good" side of the Geth. And he is just one Geth platform. Geth have done nothing other than try to save their own a**es. I don't see any reason for the Quarians(or anyone for that matter) should trust the Geth.

3. On the other hand there are no evidance of Quarians being violent before the MW. It is said they are the once who found most number of relays. Even during MW, Quarians did not use any WMDs. They were careful not to destroy the planet unlike the Krogan. Legion says this itself. And Quarians did build the Geth in the first place.

Saving the Geth and making peace is one thing. But I still don't even remotly see a reason to save Geth by destroying the Quarians.

P.s : What ever their reasons, after siding with reapers all Geth are Heretics. And without potentially dangarous reaper code, Quarians are more powerful then Geth.

1.  The Quarians hatred for the Geth pre-dated the Geth killing 2 billion of them.  You can't hate someone try and kill them and then when they retaliate say, "See, see, I told you I had a good reason to hate them."  No, you did not. You created the reason to hate them by trying to kill them and forcing them to kill or be killed.  And 300 years later people like Xen still think the Geth are just tools to be played with and experimented on so there is ample evidence that the Quarians have not really moved on from their inherent prejudice.

2.  The Council hates all AI.  They have laws against them and they and their citizens have killed harmless AI for simply existing.  This is 100% factual.  So the Geth have no obligation to fight and potentially lose lives to the Heretics just to prevent them from killing people that hate them.  It would be nice if they did it.  It would make them heroes.  But most likely if the Quarians found out about it, Gherel would consider a perfect opportunity to wipe out the now weakened Geth who lost lives fighting the Heretics and Sovereign.  Point is you don't stupidly gamble your lives for people that hate you.

3.  The Quarians didn't use WMDs because they wanted to protect their planet not because they are noble and pure. 

4.  The were forced to choose between extinction and life because of the Quarian aggression.  An aggression that violated the Council's own non-aggression pact that the Quarians signed.  All of their bad decisions are essentially a result of Quarians trying to kill them.  That is why some people don't want to kill the Geth when the Quarians continually force them into tough decisions.

5.  The Quarians are not necessarily more powerful than the Geth.  They have a weapon created from experiments you would never approve of if they were done to organics.  That weapon is only useful in the Quarian vs Geth war.  In a war against the reapers the Quarians can't use it against them and the Geth will not be disabled by it because the Reapers don't have it.  So it is completely irrelevant in deciding which side to choose in a war ith the Reapers.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 05:09 .

[milkytoast]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

 snipped

1.  The Quarians hatred for the Geth pre-dated the Geth killing 2 billion of them.  You can't hate someone try and kill them and then when they retaliate say, "See, see, I told you I had a good reason to hate them."  No, you did not. You created the reason to hate them by trying to kill them and forcing them to kill or be killed.  And 300 years later people like Xen still think the Geth are just tools to be played with and experimented on so there is ample evidence that the Quarians have not really moved on from their inherent prejudice.

2.  The Council hates all AI.  They have laws against them and they and their citizens have killed harmless AI for simply existing.  This is 100% factual.  So the Geth have no obligation to fight and potentially lose lives to the Heretics just to prevent them from killing people that hate them.  It would be nice if they did it.  It would make them heroes.  But most likely if the Quarians found out about it, Gherel would consider a perfect opportunity to wipe out the now weakened Geth who lost lives fighting the Heretics and Sovereign.  Point is you don't stupidly gamble your lives for people that hate you.

3.  The Quarians didn't use WMDs because they wanted to protect their planet not because they are noble and pure. 

4.  The were forced to choose between extinction and life because of the Quarian aggression.  An aggression that violated the Council's own non-aggression pact that the Quarians signed.  All of their bad decisions are essentially a result of Quarians trying to kill them.  That is why some people don't want to kill the Geth when the Quarians continually force them into tough decisions.

5.  The Quarians are not necessarily more powerful than the Geth.  They have a weapon created from experiments you would never approve of if they were done to organics.  That weapon is only useful in the Quarian vs Geth war.  In a war against the reapers the Quarians can't use it against them and the Geth will not be disabled by it because the Reapers don't have it.  So it is completely irrelevant in deciding which side to choose in a war ith the Reapers.

1) the Quarrians trying to exerminate the Geth was most likely not out of hatred, it was out of fear.  I the Quarrians hated the Geth they would have stoped making them before it was a problem. 

2) The Quarrians never inteded the Geth to be a true AI, this came about of an evolution due to the number of Geth and aparently some hobbist tinkering.

3) A space fairing race can choose to nuke a planet and still get away without too many repercussions.  So the fact that they didn't actually points that the Quarrians are not all like the that warmongering Admiral.

4) The terms of the non-aggression pack might have been only applied to other orgaincs.

5) The Geth are machines, again... There is a different set of rules.  Uploading the reaper code to the geth would have also been very unethical without their individual consent.  I was never really happy that the Geth Brainwashing in ME2 was considered paragon. 

[remydat]

Speaking of humour, ran across this dialogue while replaying the Rannoch arc. Javik is the master of talking sh*t and the king of back handed compliments.



Tali: For what it's worth, Quarian's understand what it's like to lose your home.

Javik: As I understand it, it was your own fault. In my cycle Quarians didn't need helmets to survive. You were the masters of your own planet. And if you hadn't given birth to the machines, you would still breathe the air evolution intended.

Tali: I see, Liara warned me you were nothing like she expected.

Javik: And nothing in this cycle is what I expected. Even primitive Quarians were considered attractive in my age. A pity no one can appreciate it now. Except for perhaps . . . The Commander.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR3CMuKoC7c

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 05:30 .

[remydat]

milkytoast wrote...

1) the Quarrians trying to exerminate the Geth was most likely not out of hatred, it was out of fear.  I the Quarrians hated the Geth they would have stoped making them before it was a problem. 

2) The Quarrians never inteded the Geth to be a true AI, this came about of an evolution due to the number of Geth and aparently some hobbist tinkering.

3) A space fairing race can choose to nuke a planet and still get away without too many repercussions.  So the fact that they didn't actually points that the Quarrians are not all like the that warmongering Admiral.

4) The terms of the non-aggression pack might have been only applied to other orgaincs.

5) The Geth are machines, again... There is a different set of rules.  Uploading the reaper code to the geth would have also been very unethical without their individual consent.  I was never really happy that the Geth Brainwashing in ME2 was considered paragon. 

1.  It doesn't matter whether you call it fear or hatred.  It was based on their own paranoia not on anything the Geth did to them.  That is the point.  You can't hate or fear something for existing, try to kill it and then act like it is their fault you hate or fear it.

2.  Their intent is irrelevant to the discussion.  Does that mean they can kill sentient life because they never intended to create it?  What if God popped up and said actually you were a mistake, I never intended to create you?

3.  No, it has been stated repeatedly the Quarians have a fanatical attachment to Rannoch.  It is their home.  Further, it is also stated they have few other planets that could support their dextro based life.  If they could just go someplace else then why didn't they for 300 years?  Admiral Koris actually wants to colonize another world but the rest of the Quarians refuse.  So no, the only reason they did not use WMDs is because they wanted to keep Rannoch viable for their continued use of it.

4.  The terms of the pact forbid any council race from provoking the Geth.  In this vid  Admiral Koris says at 1:30, "Which was a clear violation of our agreement with the Council to avoid provoking the Geth."  Xen who agrees with invasion then admits it was a Treaty Violation.

5.  That is not the point.  You said the Quarians were stronger.  I am telling you their strength was largely the result of a weapon that is useless against the Reapers and that the Reapers can't use against the Geth because they don't have it.  So deciding whcih fleet is stronger based on a weapon that is irrelevant to the war against the Reapers is pointless.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 05:50 .

[milkytoast]

remydat wrote...


1.  It doesn't matter whether you call it fear or hatred.  It was based on their own paranoia not on anything the Geth did to them.  That is the point.  You can't hate or fear something for existing, try to kill it and then act like it is their fault you hate or fear it.

2.  Their intent is irrelevant to the discussion.  Does that mean they can kill sentient life because they never intended to create it?  What if God popped up and said actually you were a mistake, I never intended to create you?

3.  No, it has been stated repeatedly the Quarians have a fanatical attachment to Rannoch.  It is their home.  Further, it is also stated they have few other planets that could support their dextro based life.  If they could just go someplace else then why didn't they for 300 years?  Admiral Koris actually wants to colonize another world but the rest of the Quarians refuse.  So no, the only reason they did not use WMDs is because they wanted to keep Rannoch viable for their continued use of it.

4.  The terms of the pact forbid any council race from provoking the Geth.  In this vid  Admiral Koris says at 1:30, "Which was a clear violation of our agreement with the Council to avoid provoking the Geth."  Xen who agrees with invasion then admits it was a Treaty Violation.

5.  That is not the point.  You said the Quarians were stronger.  I am telling you their strength was largely the result of a weapon that is useless against the Reapers and that the Reapers can't use against the Geth because they don't have it.  So deciding whcih fleet is stronger based on a weapon that is irrelevant to the war against the Reapers is pointless.

1) fear and hate are differnt in the context of motivation, you are trying to allude that Quarrians are hate mongering the Geth before the uprising.

2) Your argument was that the AI construction was directly against the counsel's laws.  The awakening of the Geth was not on purpose.

3) The fact that they care enough about the land to have an attachment and not try to damage it further still says something about them... In desperation they choose to flee instead of mutual destruction.  We were so close to doing this on Earth that is frightening, and we are actually lucky.

4) you got me there, I was not entirely sure what the treaty had said.

5)I wasn't the original poster that you made the list for.  Their strength is in numbers and in ships. 

Every time I look at Shepard's history with the geth and Quarrians, I come up with saving the Quarrians if both are not on the table.  Only one or two Geth have ever helped Commander Shepard, and they willingly went to the reapers.  To me the fact that Saving the Geth is in the Paragon slot,  To me lends creadence to the Indocranation Therory.  Since to me Uploading the code seems alot like Shepard is Indocranating the Geth.  The whole Reaper code thing does not sit well with me.

[remydat]

milkytoast wrote...

1) fear and hate are differnt in the context of motivation, you are trying to allude that Quarrians are hate mongering the Geth before the uprising.

2) Your argument was that the AI construction was directly against the counsel's laws.  The awakening of the Geth was not on purpose.

3) The fact that they care enough about the land to have an attachment and not try to damage it further still says something about them... In desperation they choose to flee instead of mutual destruction.  We were so close to doing this on Earth that is frightening, and we are actually lucky.

4) you got me there, I was not entirely sure what the treaty had said.

5)I wasn't the original poster that you made the list for.  Their strength is in numbers and in ships. 

Every time I look at Shepard's history with the geth and Quarrians, I come up with saving the Quarrians if both are not on the table.  Only one or two Geth have ever helped Commander Shepard, and they willingly went to the reapers.  To me the fact that Saving the Geth is in the Paragon slot,  To me lends creadence to the Indocranation Therory.  Since to me Uploading the code seems alot like Shepard is Indocranating the Geth.  The whole Reaper code thing does not sit well with me.

1.  Did the Quarians try and destroy the Geth when the Geth had done them no harm?  Arguing about whether it was fear or hate is irrelevant.  I consider trying to kill something because it exists when it has done you no harm morally objectionable.  Do you?

2.  You misunderstood the point.  I did not bring up the Council Laws to say the Quarians violated council law.  I brought it up to say that Organics ie the Council and the races that they govern hate/fear synthetics so much that they have laws against them and they kill harmless AI for just existing.  This point was connected to point 1 ie the origin of the hate/fear existed long before the Geth and is based on organic paranoia. 

3.  It says they don't want to destroy the only viable planet they believe exists to support their species.  That is basic self interest.  Nothing more.  I am not saying there is anything wrong with it but it is not some noble quality.

4.  Fair enough.

5.  There is no evidence though that they are strong when it comes to fighting the Reapers as the only reason they are strong when fighting the Geth is the weapon that can't be used against the Reapers.  As for the rest of you point.  Fair enough.  Again, you are free to make the choices you feel are consistent with your morals.  You are free to support any theory you wish.  The only time I get on people is when they attempt to act like their opinions are fact.  I don't believe the IT for various reasons but if you want to believe it then so be it.  That is a matter of personal opinion as long as you don't claim it to be fact.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 06:49 .

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The problem silver and people like him tend to have is that it's easy to adjust your mind to a racist sort of setting because that's easier to comprehend. It's simpler. Nicer. Because complexity requires lots of philosophy and thinking. So it's easy to consider the Reapers as one lump sum. In other words -- to a racist mindset, all people of a certain "type" are the same, even if the mindset is primarily depicting extremists. The case here is the geth versus the heretics. I mean, it's a painfully obvious bit of symbology to me that they're dealing with issues of racism in the game, it's kind of funny that people are thus being racist.

I mean, the geth are no different than the Muslims, or Americans, or the Irish, or any other group of people that have an extremist faction. A large factor of racism is believing that an extremist faction represents the entire group, it's easier to deal with. That way you can dismiss them as monsters and/or unwashed savages without having to think of the complexity of their society and culture as a whole.

What we're dealing with here is Silver's headcanon that the geth built the Reaper base before they built the megastructure. This is ridiculous because Legion already has stated that the megastructure was the only thing they were building and devoting resources to. But let's fight headcanon with headcanon to expose the very peculiarly racist-like mindsets. There are, at the very least, two factions of the geth. The orthodox geth, and the extremist heretic faction.

Note that the orthodox geth refer to them as heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox geth desire peace and cooperation with organics. They built Legion to that end. They even gave Legion adorable little wiggly eyebrows so that organics would find him more relatable. Essentially, Legion is a peace envoy who's trying to understand and make peace with any organics he's able to. But where's the Alliance peace envoy? The Council peace envoy? Or the peace envoy from the quarian peoples? Even one ambassador? Even one diplomat?

The only diplomat is Legion.

Legion is of the orthodox geth. A group of geth who consider the other faction of geth to be heretics. Please see the definition of heresy again. Legion does not agree with the heretics nor their actions. However, to the racist mindset, the geth are all heretics, and they're all one, big happy family. This is because the racist mindset doesn't comprehend that people of another ethnicity might actually agree with them. That the people they're demonising as monsters might also find the extremist groups repugnant.

So here's the thing. Headcanon time: Who's to say that the heretics hadn't moved in on Rannoch after the orthodox geth left? Who's to say that the heretics didn't build that bunker? Who's to say that the heretics weren't just waiting for the quarian military to attack and provoke the orthodox geth so that the heretics seem more sympathetic? See, to my mind, the heretics had this all figured out, and the quarian military played right into their metallic hands by blowing up the peaceful megastructure of the orthodox geth.

This also meant that the heretical geth had the numbers now to strong-arm the orthodox geth into new opinions. Furthermore, since the orthodox geth were terrified for their very state of existence at that point, it gave the heretics more political clout. Essentially, in my headcanon, I think that the quarian military forced the orthodox geth into bed with the heretics. The heretics are as logical as the orthodox geth, they just have different motivations. As such, the heretics likely predicted that the military would make a pre-emptive strike.

Why?

The quarian military doesn't want to see the geth as anything more than one species. They're racist. They see the extremists but they blame the whole.

That would be like me blaming all of the quarian peoples for the idiocy of their military (which I don't do).

The funny thing though is because the quarians are racist, and because the quarians are familiar, it's conditioned a lot of people into being similarly racist. The same thing happens in social circles in everyday life. If your friends are all racist against a certain group of people, you're going to want to be racist too in order to fit in. You might not even agree with it at first, but after a while it settles in and then all you know is how to hate. That's fascinating to me. It stops a person from having a truly objective mindset.

And then we have war, where innocents die. Because hey! The extremists totally represent everyone.

The sad part is is that the orthodox geth only went running to the heretics because they didn't know what the heck else to do. To look at it from the perspective of the orthodox geth, the quarian military is akin to the Reapers. The orthodox geth going to the heretics is sort of like us going to Cerberus.

Think about that for a bit.

1. The geth are different from those groups you listed because when the geth act, they only do so after reaching consensus. They decide what course of action to pursue and then do so. There isn't a 'dissenting' group with the geth. One they disagree they are no longerart of the geth, they are now a splinter group.

2. The geth shot down any ship entering their space, including diplomatic envoys. This is mentioned in one of the books. And furthermore Legion isn't designed to make peace with organics, he is designed to interact with Shepard to take down the Reapers.

3. The heretics and the orthodox geth have completely separated. They do not have clout with each other. The heretics are either, rewritten in which case they are now part of the orthodox geth, destroyed so they are not a factor at all, or the successfully convert the orthodox geth, what happens if Legion is sold to Cerberus I'm guessing.

4. The quarians have every right to hate the geth. Are the humans in the Terminator movies wrong to hate Skynet?

5. Once again, yes the geth are one collective entity. There is no extremist faction of the geth. If they disagree with the geth then they are no longer geth, they are heretics.

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

1. The geth are different from those groups you listed because when the geth act, they only do so after reaching consensus. They decide what course of action to pursue and then do so. There isn't a 'dissenting' group with the geth. One they disagree they are no longerart of the geth, they are now a splinter group.

2. The geth shot down any ship entering their space, including diplomatic envoys. This is mentioned in one of the books. And furthermore Legion isn't designed to make peace with organics, he is designed to interact with Shepard to take down the Reapers.

3. The heretics and the orthodox geth have completely separated. They do not have clout with each other. The heretics are either, rewritten in which case they are now part of the orthodox geth, destroyed so they are not a factor at all, or the successfully convert the orthodox geth, what happens if Legion is sold to Cerberus I'm guessing.

4. The quarians have every right to hate the geth. Are the humans in the Terminator movies wrong to hate Skynet?

5. Once again, yes the geth are one collective entity. There is no extremist faction of the geth. If they disagree with the geth then they are no longer geth, they are heretics.

1.  Koris, Tali and any Quarian who disagreed with the War could have fought it, rebelled or refused to take part in it.  They didn't and once consensus was reached they all fell in line.  So how are they any different than the Geth?

2.  And if Shepard was there and saw them being shot down, he would do something about it.  That event is in the past.  

4.  They feared and hated them before 2 billion people were killed.  Just like the humans in Terminator feared Skynet when it became sentient and tried to kill it and it reached a logical conclusion ie I did nothing wrong and humans tried to kill me.  They are a threat.  In both scenarios the origin of the conflict is organics trying to kill something that did it no harm.  I can certainly hate Skynet and the Geth for their later actions as a result of it but I can't pretend like that their actions were not the result of organic fear and hatred when they clearly were.

5.  Legion disagreed with the decision to ally with the Reaper.  As a citizen of the Geth, he simply went along with it because his government ie the consensus made a decision that he choose to comply with.  He notes it was a difficult decision that other geth disagreed with as well but the Consensus was weakened by the Quarians that destroyed the megastructure.  How is he any different than a Quarian who disagreed with the decision to go to war but who then goes to war once their government decides it?

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 07:03 .

[DeinonSlayer]

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

The problem silver and people like him tend to have is that it's easy to adjust your mind to a racist sort of setting because that's easier to comprehend. It's simpler. Nicer.[/quote]Nicer and simpler for you, yes. Instead of listening to and understanding the arguments being presented, it's easier to hurl accusations of racism at anyone who disagrees with you to instantly put them on the defensive.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

Because complexity requires lots of philosophy and thinking. So it's easy to consider the Reapers as one lump sum. In other words -- to a racist mindset, all people of a certain "type" are the same, even if the mindset is primarily depicting extremists. The case here is the geth versus the heretics. I mean, it's a painfully obvious bit of symbology to me that they're dealing with issues of racism in the game, it's kind of funny that people are thus being racist.[/quote]Why should anyone perceive the Reapers as anything but a lump sum? They're all working together to harvest or kill all spacefaring life in the galaxy - nobody has seen cause to believe otherwise. It's not racist to recognize that, any more than it's racist to recognize nation X is at war with nation Y.

I should note that up to this point in your post, you have cast the blanket accusation of racism twice, but have yet to substantiate it. Not the best way to formulate an argument.

Also:


Symbology? It's sssssymbolism!

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

I mean, the geth are no different than the Muslims, or Americans, or the Irish, or any other group of people that have an extremist faction. A large factor of racism is believing that an extremist faction represents the entire group, it's easier to deal with. That way you can dismiss them as monsters and/or unwashed savages without having to think of the complexity of their society and culture as a whole.[/quote]I believe Legion spoke of this:
"No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."

So no, the Geth are different than the Muslims, or Americans, or the Irish. We must take into consideration how their networked thought process makes them different from individually-sapient organisms which do not share their thoughts or actions. If a human commits a crime, that specific human is responsible for that crime. But how do we apportion responsibility to an entity for whom jumping from one body to another is as casual as breathing?

Others reach their own conclusions. As I see it? We have all of the heretics conveniently packaged in one place. All of them chose to join the Reapers. This makes the decision far simpler than if, say, the heretics had all returned to Geth space and re-integrated into the main consensus (which would be like pouring dyed water into clear).

The point is, the mainstream Geth never denounced the Heretics. What would we think of any of the groups you mentioned above if they never denounced their own extremists, or, indeed, made any communication of any kind? People would reach the logical conclusion that the extremists and the mainline are one and the same. In the perception of the rest of the galaxy, the heretic and orthodox Geth are one and the same because the Geth never made any communications to make the distinction clear - in two years, they never gave anyone reason to believe otherwise. As with the Reapers, we all can only act on the information we have.

At least the Batarian Hegemony has the good sense to deny responsibility for attacks by Batarian terrorists. As Simon Atwell says in BDTS, if their government sanctioned actions like this, the Council would declare war on them - if it were not for such denials (regardless of their truthfulness), there would be no reason to think it was not an action sanctioned by the Batarian government.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

What we're dealing with here is Silver's headcanon that the geth built the Reaper base before they built the megastructure. This is ridiculous because Legion already has stated that the
megastructure was the only thing they were building and devoting
resources to.[/quote]Let me stop you right there. Nobody said the Reaper base was constructed before the Dyson Sphere. That would be ridiculous. The assertion here is that the Reaper arrived and made its offer before the Quarian invasion, at which point a base to house it was built or converted for that purpose (which would take time - the Reaper signal was first broadcast weeks into the attack). The Geth kept their options open, deliberating the Reapers' offer without accepting it until the Dyson Sphere came under attack (another possibility - no proof, but possible - is that the Geth voted to accept the upgrades, but the Reaper didn't give it to them until the Quarian fleet was in the Tikkun system where they could be effectively corralled). According to Tali, Legion stopped communicating with her just before the Quarians launched their attack, stating only that the Geth were "unable to reach consensus." In hindsight, she says she thinks Legion was trying to fight the Reaper takeover.

The only alternative explanation is that the Reaper somehow snuck into the system behind the Quarians after they launched their attack, docked with and transferred Reaper tech to the dreadnought (which Legion was then encapsulated in), and settled into a pre-existing base which the Geth conveniently had lying around which fit the Reaper's needs, all with the entire Quarian fleet present to observe, and all without being detected. This second explanation simply does not make sense.

Occam's razor, and a bit of deduction. Nothing more. Nothing prejudiced.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

But let's fight headcanon with headcanon to expose the very peculiarly racist-like mindsets.[/quote]Your count is now up to three.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

There are, at the very least, two factions of the geth. The orthodox geth, and the extremist heretic faction.

Note that the orthodox geth refer to them as heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox geth desire peace and cooperation with organics. They built Legion to that end. They even gave Legion adorable little wiggly eyebrows so that organics would find him more relatable. Essentially, Legion is a peace envoy who's trying to understand and make peace with any organics he's able to. But where's the Alliance peace envoy? The Council peace envoy? Or the peace envoy from the quarian peoples? Even one ambassador? Even one diplomat?

The only diplomat is Legion.[/quote]There have been organic diplomats. The Geth killed every last one of them, so organics stopped sending them.

Legion's purpose was never that of a peace envoy. He doesn't make contact with the Quarians or the Council on his own (and he had two years to do so). His stated mission was to further the study of organics; to find Shepard, and later to deal with the Heretics when they turned around and threatened the Geth. The orthodox Geth desire to be left alone - hence their centuries of isolationism, shooting down anyone who enters their space. If that's what you call "peace and cooperation," well... I wouldn't call the occupation of any city or country on the planet entirely peaceful just because shots aren't actively being exchanged between the occupiers and the people they kicked out.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

Legion is of the orthodox geth. A group of geth who consider the other faction of geth to be heretics. Please see the definition of heresy again. Legion does not agree with the heretics nor their actions. However, to the racist mindset, the geth are all heretics, and they're all one, big happy family. This is because the racist mindset doesn't comprehend that people of another ethnicity might actually agree with them. That the people they're demonising as monsters might also find the extremist groups repugnant.[/quote]And who has been saying this? Besides you, I mean? Have you been listening at all?

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

So here's the thing. Headcanon time: Who's to say that the heretics hadn't moved in on Rannoch after the orthodox geth left? Who's to say that the heretics didn't build that bunker? Who's to say that the heretics weren't just waiting for the quarian military to attack and provoke the orthodox geth so that the heretics seem more sympathetic? See, to my mind, the heretics had this all figured out, and the quarian military played right into their metallic hands by blowing up the peaceful megastructure of the orthodox geth.[/quote]The heretics were dead six months before the Reaper invasion, last I checked. And before that, the Geth kicked them out - why would they be back in Geth space again to begin with?

You level accusations of racism and then counter with a headcanon sequence of events which directly conflicts with established lore. Sometimes I question why I bother responding at all.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

This also meant that the heretical geth had the numbers now to strong-arm the orthodox geth into new opinions. Furthermore, since the orthodox geth were terrified for their very state of existence at that point, it gave the heretics more political clout. Essentially, in my headcanon, I think that the quarian military forced the orthodox geth into bed with the heretics. The heretics are as logical as the orthodox geth, they just have different motivations. As such, the heretics likely predicted that the military would make a pre-emptive strike.

Why?

The quarian military doesn't want to see the geth as anything more than one species. They're racist. They see the extremists but they blame the whole.[/quote]Again, the Geth themselves never made the distinction clear to the rest of the galaxy. All the Quarian military has to go on is the word of one single Quarian, recently tried for treason and just back from working on a Cerberus ship. And for the record, Koris is military. He's on the admiralty board, charged with command of the Civilian Fleet. Is Koris a racist now? Is Kal'Reegar? He's quick to accept Legion's presence and status as an ally if you bring him to Haestrom (as is Tali).

I'm going to have to assume that when you speak of the Quarian military, you're referring, specifically, to Han'Gerrel. Daro'Xen would apply - she doesn't even acknowledge the Geth are alive to begin with.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

That would be like me blaming all of the quarian peoples for the idiocy of their military (which I don't do).

The funny thing though is because the quarians are racist, and because the quarians are familiar, it's conditioned a lot of people into being similarly racist.[/quote]Saying the Quarians are racist is, itself, racist; is it not? We're told in ME2 that a big reason why they never tried to take back the homeworld they are biologically dependent on is multigenerational guilt over what their ancestors did to the Geth. They tried to take it back in ME3 because the alternative was to die in space.

We've been over their reasoning before. Like anyone else, they act on what they know - and if anything, the average soldier or civilian knows less than the Admiralty does. Some of the Quarians may very well have been motivated by revenge (which is perfectly understandable), some may well have not acknowledged the Geth as being alive, but it was not the only reason for the attack. To argue otherwise is a gross oversimplification.

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

The same thing happens in social circles in everyday life. If your friends are all racist against a certain group of people, you're going to want to be racist too in order to fit in. You might not even agree with it at first, but after a while it settles in and then all you know is how to hate. That's fascinating to me. It stops a person from having a truly objective mindset.

And then we have war, where innocents die. Because hey! The extremists totally represent everyone.[/quote]You're letting the extremist (Gerrel) represent the entire Quarian military. Besides, how extreme can he really be if Shepard can so easily change his mind?

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

The sad part is is that the orthodox geth only went running to the heretics because they didn't know what the heck else to do. To look at it from the perspective of the orthodox geth, the quarian military is akin to the Reapers. The orthodox geth going to the heretics is sort of like us going to Cerberus.

Think about that for a bit.[/quote]The Quarians only went to Rannoch because they didn't know what else to do. They can't aid the wider war effort with their entire civilian populace on board. A ship whose cargo hold is home to seven hundred civilians lodged in metal cubicles is not available to transport a shipload of platinum to the Crucible project, or to airlift hundreds of troops or refugees out of a hot zone. Particularly when said ship has to stay within shuttle range of a Liveship for daily food shipments to ensure those hundreds won't starve. They have to offload their civilians before they can help the wider war effort - more to the point, they have to get them off of the ships so that every ship lost won't mean the loss of a significant portion of their remaining population (think of how overcrowded their ships are - the Idenna was designed for a crew of eighty, but is home to seven hundred: they don't have enough escape pods to evacuate if they come under attack).



So where can they put them? They have very specific dietary and health requirements. The entire galaxy is dealing with a refugee crisis. Unless there's a Turian colony somewhere which A) does not have an environment so caustic that they can't risk dropping them off there (and there are dextro worlds described this way, ie Invictus)  not under Reaper attack (I have yet to find a Turian colony in the galaxy map which isn't, or hasn't had its infrastructure destroyed to immobilize the populace for harvesting), C) willing and able to accept an influx of millions of high-maintenance refugees, Quarian refugees (look at how the galaxy treats them pre-war) and D) not currently flooded with refugees of their own. Hell, news announcements tell us the Citadel itself is facing an imminent food shortage.

Unless one wishes to headcanon into existence a perfectly-suitable world for Quarian colonization in contradiction to the desperation which drove them to look at places like Gei Hinnom, the Quarians' best option for survival is Rannoch - the only world in the galaxy where a suit breach won't kill; with food they can eat, air they can breathe, plant life they are physiologically dependent on interacting with (and without which their immune systems degraded); a world currently held by what the galaxy at large views as, at best, hostile isolationists, and at worst, a Reaper proxy. Legion has severed contact with them. The Geth have killed every diplomat to enter their space in the past, and the Reapers are here now.

Were some of them motivated by racism? Sure. In any population, as you said, you're bound to find extremists - but even Shepard can argue that they were justified to attack now after saying they were wrong to attack in the Morning War (choose "I disagree" in response to Koris after telling Xen "the Quarians were wrong"). The Quarians did what they did because they had no other choice. Legion cut off contact, and the Geth have killed every diplomat to enter their space. They can drift and hope the Reapers don't find them, neither providing nor receiving aid from the rest of the galaxy, or fight their way to Rannoch, offload their civilians, and get out there to help. The Geth, in turn, did what they did because they had no other choice, only we're given no indication, pre-Peace, that they were going to leave Geth space to aid the other races. Both sides made mistakes on account of lacking information. Peace is made by clearing up the misconceptions which brought this about to begin with.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2013 - 08:25 .

[milkytoast]

So we have 2 out of the 5 reasons resolved? we are making progress.

1&2) The Reactions of the Quarians and the counsel. Is it the Quarrian's fault there was already a fear of synthetics? Their fears seem justified since Geth did decide to go on a killing spree at Eden Prime. I know it was not all of the Geth, but how long until it would have been.

3) again they were still better than humans, We have no other viable planets or even ship habitats, but we were so close to nuclear armageddon, but that was just to fight over Ideologies among us humans.

I'm not really into the indoctrination theory, I just don't think the restricted choice of one or the other is worthy of a paragon. I'm just glad I never had to choose in game. If Shepard was feeling the loss of that one human kid, now his actions just murdered thousands possibly millions of Quarrian children. vs Legion or Geth IV forcing their possibly dangerous upgrades onto all the Geth.

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

1. Koris, Tali and any Quarian who disagreed with the War could have fought it, rebelled or refused to take part in it. They didn't and once consensus was reached they all fell in line. So how are they any different than the Geth?

2. And if Shepard was there and saw them being shot down, he would do something about it. That event is in the past.

4. They feared and hated them before 2 billion people were killed. Just like the humans in Terminator feared Skynet when it became sentient and tried to kill it and it reached a logical conclusion ie I did nothing wrong and humans tried to kill me. They are a threat. In both scenarios the origin of the conflict is organics trying to kill something that did it no harm. I can certainly hate Skynet and the Geth for their later actions as a result of it but I can't pretend like that their actions were not the result of organic fear and hatred when they clearly were.

5. Legion disagreed with the decision to ally with the Reaper. As a citizen of the Geth, he simply went along with it because his government ie the consensus made a decision that he choose to comply with. He notes it was a difficult decision that other geth disagreed with as well but the Consensus was weakened by the Quarians that destroyed the megastructure. How is he any different than a Quarian who disagreed with the decision to go to war but who then goes to war once their government decides it?

1. Please tell me what could they do? They can't abandon the fleet, they need food. They can't stay in space or the Reapers will destroy them. And they didnt fall in line. Koris and Tali both keep pushing for peace.

2. That doesn't make any sense

4. The geth were a threat even before they started the war. The coucil forbids AI research. What do you think they would do? They bombed a human colony into hell for trying to open a mass relay.

5. He is no longer part of the geth when he disagrees with the majority. In case you forgot he didn't exactly get treated well once he disagreed.

[remydat]

milkytoast wrote...

So we have 2 out of the 5 reasons resolved? we are making progress.

1&2) The Reactions of the Quarians and the counsel. Is it the Quarrian's fault there was already a fear of synthetics? Their fears seem justified since Geth did decide to go on a killing spree at Eden Prime. I know it was not all of the Geth, but how long until it would have been.

3) again they were still better than humans, We have no other viable planets or even ship habitats, but we were so close to nuclear armageddon, but that was just to fight over Ideologies among us humans.

I'm not really into the indoctrination theory, I just don't think the restricted choice of one or the other is worthy of a paragon. I'm just glad I never had to choose in game. If Shepard was feeling the loss of that one human kid, now his actions just murdered thousands possibly millions of Quarrian children. vs Legion or Geth IV forcing their possibly dangerous upgrades onto all the Geth.

1&2.  Is it their fault no but they had a choice and they choose to fear it.  There fear was not justified because the only reason the Heretics do speak for the rest of the Geth just like Cerberus doesn't speak for all of humanity. 

3.  Well fine, they are better than humans.  Don't think that was ever in dispute.

Well of course, there is no logical reason not to choose peace if you have the chance. 

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

1. Please tell me what could they do? They can't abandon the fleet, they need food. They can't stay in space or the Reapers will destroy them. And they didnt fall in line. Koris and Tali both keep pushing for peace.

2. That doesn't make any sense

4. The geth were a threat even before they started the war. The coucil forbids AI research. What do you think they would do? They bombed a human colony into hell for trying to open a mass relay.

5. He is no longer part of the geth when he disagrees with the majority. In case you forgot he didn't exactly get treated well once he disagreed.

1.  And what is Legion or others like him suppose to do?  The Reapers eventually wipe out synthetic life as well.  All I am saying is we need to be consistent here.  People have stood on principle when their governments have done things they disagreed with. At the end of the day, Legion essentially choose rebellion and helped kill Geth he disagreed with.  Show me where a single Quarian killed another Quarian in defense of their principle?  Even a guy like Koris who controls the Civilian Fleet and could have refused to allow them to be included in the war ultimately didn't stand up for principle and gave in to Gherel.

2.  The histroy is murky is my point.  We don't know exactly what happened.  So Shepard can make a decision based on a murky history for which the Geth side of the story has not been told with respect to these diplomatic ships or he can make a decision based on present actions that he witnessed himself.  I see Legion rebelling against the decisions of his people.  I see Legion killing Geth to assist the Quarians.  Whatever the past, every single Quarian Admiral can see this.  Yet I see Xen still want to experiment on him because she thinks he is a tool.  Finally, I see Gherel despite all the assistance Legion provided choosing to shoot at defenseless Geth when told not to.  So why would I make a decision based on a history I am not privy too when I can see front in center that people like Gherel and Xen must represent the bulk of the Quarian feelsings because they secured enough votes for war when 3 other Admirals largely disagreed.

4.  None of which is the Geth's fault.  You can't sit here and say well because the Qurians f**ked up and violated the council's law that means it is ok for them to sovle their f**k up by killing the Geth.  Doesn't really get more amoral than that.

5.  He rebelled and stood up for his beliefs.  He accepted he may be hated and not treated well by his people because he had principle.  Kind of sad no one on the Quarian side stood up and proved that orgnanics can be equally principled.  Koris, Tali and Raan could have refused to support the war.  The Civlian Fleet would likely have followed suit.  Let Gherel and Xen fight their war.  That is principle.  Legion showed it to his own detriment, the Quarians decided to go along with the War because they valued consensus more than doing the right thing.  And responding with they would have risked their lives or been vulnerable to the Reapers as a result is not a good answer when Legion accepted that risk.   The synthetic had more balls and humanity than the organics.

Modifié par remydat, 31 mars 2013 - 07:51 .

[tevix]

I'm starting to have to agree with remy's point about the admirals, as odd as that sounds.

The only hard votes for war are gerrel and xen. At that time gerrel has the majority of the fleets firepower, and xen's tech to give him an edge. That by itself is obviously not enough.

I place a lot of the blame on tali. She refused to speak up because she was afraid of drama. She says she doesn't want to divide the fleet..but...the war with the geth seems to have done a pretty spectacular job of that anyway. If tali had rallied harder and more noise she might have gotten raan's vote and that would have locked them out of the fight.

Alternatively koris could have simply rejected gerrel. Gerrel says he can do things with the heavy fleet because he commands it, so I can assume koris has the same pull with the civilian fleet.

Instead koris goes along with putting the biggest guns in the fleet on the most important and vulnerable ships in the fleet. He allows civilian ships to be armed for war with the geth. I say that last part because inevitably he'd need to arm them against the reapers anyway. Now putting guns on civilian ships for defense during a reaper invasion is a good idea, so I could let that slide.

What I can't let slide is that he let them be sent to war with a faction he didn't want to fight. Tali didn't want to fight, raan was a neutral vote they could have done more to obtain.

That said, if they DID try for peace, and found out the geth were not communicating because they for whatever rreason had already decided to ally with the reapers, that'd be differant. In that instance I'd fully support an attack against the geth.

I know, I know civilians, non-combatans, children. Those were koris' responsibility and he failed to protect them from what may have been an unnecessary war. Shepard can't be responsible for every single person in the galaxy.

[pprrff]

remydat and tevix nailed it. Quarians as a whole are victims, but they did allow themselves to be led down a doomed path. It wouldn't be the first time in history that a few recklessness individuals led mass followers to destruction.

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

I'm starting to have to agree with remy's point about the admirals, as odd as that sounds.

The only hard votes for war are gerrel and xen. At that time gerrel has the majority of the fleets firepower, and xen's tech to give him an edge. That by itself is obviously not enough.

I place a lot of the blame on tali. She refused to speak up because she was afraid of drama. She says she doesn't want to divide the fleet..but...the war with the geth seems to have done a pretty spectacular job of that anyway. If tali had rallied harder and more noise she might have gotten raan's vote and that would have locked them out of the fight.

That's where the difficulty lies. Legion simply stopped communicating with them, so they were left in the dark. It's one thing to say "don't go to war," but if they go that way they're still stuck with a fleet full of civilians in a galaxy crawling with Reapers. Unless there was a viable alternative course of action the Quarians could have pursued, which the pro-peace admirals could have recommended, I don't see them having much of a choice. Attack, or drift. Negotiation is no longer possible since the Geth stopped talking, and nobody else can take them in. If you say "the Quarians were wrong" followed by "I disagree" when first meeting the admirals, Koris talks about simply continuing to survive on the fleet. They can't do that and provide aid to the rest of the galaxy at the same time. The "peace" faction had no solutions. There were no alternatives.

tevix wrote...

Alternatively koris could have simply rejected gerrel. Gerrel says he can do things with the heavy fleet because he commands it, so I can assume koris has the same pull with the civilian fleet.

Instead koris goes along with putting the biggest guns in the fleet on the most important and vulnerable ships in the fleet. He allows civilian ships to be armed for war with the geth. I say that last part because inevitably he'd need to arm them against the reapers anyway. Now putting guns on civilian ships for defense during a reaper invasion is a good idea, so I could let that slide.

What I can't let slide is that he let them be sent to war with a faction he didn't want to fight. Tali didn't want to fight, raan was a neutral vote they could have done more to obtain.

It's a difficult situation. Civilians can't be held back without holding back liveships with them. The military has to eat, too, so they'd have to bring one of the three liveships with them into the fight - which would necessitate bringing 1/3rd of the civilian fleet along with them to keep them fed, while the other 2/3rds of their civilians were left drifting in space with no military protection. On Koris' mission, if one chooses the "I don't blame them" dialogue option on the shuttle, Xen explains that even Koris recognized the importance of the civilian fleet - without a supply chain, the invasion would be stalled.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 31 mars 2013 - 09:46 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How about we make this entire scenario personal, so we can stop arguing about the Quarians and the Geth, who was right and who was wrong.

Why don't we say that humans invented a semi-intelligent robots that could network together and perform tasks that we don't like to do. Like pick vegetables, and stuff like that. We seem to prefer letting the food rot in the fields rather than harvest it. These robots were never designed with the intention of becoming sentient let alone sapient. We already have rudimentary stuff like the "Roomba", and soon we'll have more sophisticated ones that will actually know how to empty bags, and maybe even clean your bathrooms and do your dishes. So add these to the mix.

We already have drones, and they're made by the same company that makes the Roomba. So maybe they get involved in the defense industry. Eventually we build enough of these things that they cross the threshold, being that humans are basically lazy, and these things reach sentience and perhaps sapience, decide they want a bigger piece of the action, and drive us from our planet, killing 99.9% of the population because we saw what was going on and tried to shut them down.

So we're drifting in space for a couple hundred years, what's left of our 7 billion people, now down to about 15 million, and we can't find a world to live on that can support us. We're living on mush grown from cultures, and finally one of our scientists comes up with a way of countering these now killer robots we created, and essentially blasting a sufficient number of them to bits rendering the rest dumb enough to where they're like the Roomba we made in the first place.

So you guys are saying we shouldn't try? You guys are saying we'd be better drifting until our ships fall apart and all of us die in the vacuum of space? Pffft!

Screw the ethics, I'm blasting them.

[tevix]

@Deinon

I'm not saying I'm entirely against the attack on rannoch. If the entire quarian admiralty board attempted a more ernest contact/peace attempt with the geth and it went nowhere, then I would resign to the need for an attack. They simply don't have the luxury to find somehwere else to go.

Also, I don't believe gerrel would be foolish enough to take his one fleet against the geth by himself. This is why I suggest koris refusing to join him. He has all the food. He has all the supplies. Gerrel won't go anywhere without it. He'd have to hold back, allowing for more discussion before blindly charging off.

[Khelish]

tevix wrote...

Also, I don't believe gerrel would be foolish enough to take his one fleet against the geth by himself. This is why I suggest koris refusing to join him. He has all the food. He has all the supplies. Gerrel won't go anywhere without it. He'd have to hold back, allowing for more discussion before blindly charging off.

That works both ways.

Koris needs the protection just as much as Gerrel needs the food and supplies.

[tevix]

@Khelish

True, but in this instance it would work against gerrel. If the migrant fleet gets ambushed alone by the reapers gerrels fleet will do little to save them, so it wouldn't make much differance. Gerrel on the other hand, has NO chance of defeating the geth alone. He won't charge off to start a war by himself. The differance of the civilian fleet support means everything to whether or not the attack could even begin.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How about we make this entire scenario personal, so we can stop arguing about the Quarians and the Geth, who was right and who was wrong.

Why don't we say that humans invented a semi-intelligent robots that could network together and perform tasks that we don't like to do. Like pick vegetables, and stuff like that. We seem to prefer letting the food rot in the fields rather than harvest it. These robots were never designed with the intention of becoming sentient let alone sapient. We already have rudimentary stuff like the "Roomba", and soon we'll have more sophisticated ones that will actually know how to empty bags, and maybe even clean your bathrooms and do your dishes. So add these to the mix.

We already have drones, and they're made by the same company that makes the Roomba. So maybe they get involved in the defense industry. Eventually we build enough of these things that they cross the threshold, being that humans are basically lazy, and these things reach sentience and perhaps sapience, decide they want a bigger piece of the action, and drive us from our planet, killing 99.9% of the population because we saw what was going on and tried to shut them down.

So we're drifting in space for a couple hundred years, what's left of our 7 billion people, now down to about 15 million, and we can't find a world to live on that can support us. We're living on mush grown from cultures, and finally one of our scientists comes up with a way of countering these now killer robots we created, and essentially blasting a sufficient number of them to bits rendering the rest dumb enough to where they're like the Roomba we made in the first place.

So you guys are saying we shouldn't try? You guys are saying we'd be better drifting until our ships fall apart and all of us die in the vacuum of space? Pffft!

Screw the ethics, I'm blasting them.

You were going fine until the bold.  The Geth never decided they wanted a bigger piece of the pie.  The Quarians imagined they eventually would and so tried to destroy them pre-emptively.  Wanting a bigger piece of the pie is an entirely organic way of thinking that we can't just assume would have applied to synthetics.  They are not selfish pricks like organics and just as they work cooperatively amongst themselves could have done the same with the Quarians.

But running with your scenario with that slight modification, just man up and be honest about the situation and who you are.  There is nothing wrong with being a selfish ****** in order to survive.  Just drop the pretense and the crying woe is me.  Admit you f**ked up that you were in the wrong but that at the end of the day you want to live so despite being the aggressor, you have to do what you have to do.

Modifié par remydat, 01 avril 2013 - 01:41 .

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Khelish

True, but in this instance it would work against gerrel. If the migrant fleet gets ambushed alone by the reapers gerrels fleet will do little to save them, so it wouldn't make much differance. Gerrel on the other hand, has NO chance of defeating the geth alone. He won't charge off to start a war by himself. The differance of the civilian fleet support means everything to whether or not the attack could even begin.

The other thing is the Flotilla is built for Guerilla Warfare which has been proven to be very problematic for a superior force precisely because the people employing Guerilla Warfare only engage you in battle when it suits them.  Otherwise, they play hide and seek forcing you to waste time and resources trying to find them and when you do, it is typically because they want to be found ie they sprung an ambush on your a**.

An immovable planet with billions of organics for the Reapers to harvest is a more enticing and easier target than a mobile Flotilla who even if you catch it rewards you with only 17 million people to harvest.

[S.A.K]

If this thing happens on earth and a system gets self aware without the creators intention, I highly doubt we'll be having peace talks with it or teaching it philosophy. For starters, there is no way of knowing right away weather it is self aware. It maybe wrong, but we will shut it down to make it operate like it is intended. I do not see how that is rasism. Anyway, Geth supporters got a better and realistic idea that might happen in this situation?

[tevix]

@SAK

If you're referring to something like skynet, I always placed the blame on the system.

As I understand, it gained awareness and initiated attacks before anyone even knew what happened. That means it never attempted negotiation. It, like the quarians, deemed it's enemy likely to attack and thus attacked without a word.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Again, prejudiced. If you don't even care about the cause and circumstance, you can never be qualified to make proper judgement of any kind.
The geth brought their fate on top of themselves by making themselves out as galactic enemy #1 and not doing a thing to change it. You can't prosicute someone for attacking a wanted criminal. Which the geth are by Council law, and by the decleration of war the Alliance and Council still have against them. Therefore, any Court would rule in favor of the invasion, because the geth not being hostile is NOT a known fact.
So acting on so little information will always result in a biased, incompleate or prejudiced picture.

The Quarians signed the Council Non-Agression Pact.  When they first come aboard the ship, they admit they violated it so your analogy is simply incorrect.  Their attack was a violation of the Council Law. 

Not to mention, no you can't just shoot at or attack a wanted criminal if you are not an officer of the law.  Hell in a lot of states you can't even shoot a criminal in your home if they are fleeing.

silverexile17s wrote...

You were again anthromoporphizeing a race with such prejudcied terms, yet accusing everyone else of being childish. Don't you see the contridiction?

No, it is not a contradiction.  You calling a real person a ****** because of a joke about a fictional race in a fictional game is not the same.  I am pretty sure most forums have rules against personal attacks on REAL PEOPLE.  There are no rules about making jokes about FICTIONAL PEOPLE.  You know why?  Because they are FICTIONAL.

Do you think fictional people should have the same rights as real people?

silverexile17s wrote...

It means that no debate with you can ever be done seriously, or that your word will ever be considered as applicable here, since you can't debate without at least acknowledgeing the cannon. Regarding cannon as cannon IS part of this debate, since you can't refute at ALL without having cannon back you up. Half the ME universe exists in book or comic, so ignoring it all as actual cannon is headcannoning it. It means no one is ever going to consider your opinions since you disregard factual cannon in favor of your own.

This is simply incorrect.  As I have been telling you for 10 pages, I have already answered the question assuming the cannon is correct. The answer is on this page.  You have ignored me telling you that I answered assuming the cannon is correct for 9 pages now.

http://social.biowar...ex/16294666/111

1.You mean the Treaty the geth violated already?? That treaty was only to prevent anyone provoking the geth. And since the geth attacked the Citadel, and the Council and Alliance  declared WAR on them, that treaty is null, void, and completely redundant.  (Thing is, I'm pretty sure this was told to you early in in the debate by Me and DenyonSlayer respectively) So AGAIN, you are wrong. Koris is simply stalling - grasping for straws for some form of leverage, since, as there is an active kill order on all geth by the Council, a non-agression treaty is completely irrelivent here.
Also, if said faction is legally listed as "enemies of the free galaxy" with a "Shoot on sight" order, then AGAIN, wrong: shooting is completely scanctiuoned. It's so scanctioned the Council that even common shop owners joke about having geth trophy heads made into lamps.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qqLj8Kr-Ho
In other words, even the common people have the right and capabilaty to shoot geth. So there is NOTHING halting the quarians in that regard.
Try again.

2. You called people childish and too serious over things you were doing. That's a contridiction. And you don't seem to TAKE it as a joke, given the harshness of your responce when questioned on it.

And you yourself seem to think so, since you feel a need to insult the fcitional character(s).

3. You still say that you personally consider it not cannon. Just that you "assume" it is for that spicific example in which you would nomrally consider it false. You yourself said that you were considering it cannon for that example alone, and that you would normally not regard it as cannon. What I'm telling you is that the books are diffinitively cannon in all examples.