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[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

And again, this means that you are STILL prejudiced, openly now, becase you openly admit that you are willing to persicute an entire people for a single quarian. And for something that Shepard can openly prevent. I'm saying that's not right. It's no different then the way the galaxy persicutes the geth for the Heretics, which I thought you hated.

As was stated like 70 pages ago, in the game Tali is my love interest and I choose to make peace.  The peace option is not an option in the scenario presented so you calling me prejudice for making a decision in accordance with the OP suggests you are in the wrong thread.

It's NOT suggested by the OP. It's your prejudice against quarians that does the deciding. My point was that It is entirely prejudice to blame and persicute an entire race based on one person. It's like persicuting all humans just because of The Illusive Man's actions. And also, you had tried putting the blame on Gerrel when the communciation failure is Tali's fault. Again, deer in headlights, and not what one call's command material.
Tali being your LI does NOT absolve her of that. It has no bearing on this debate, and if anything, it is the topic that shouldn't be on this thread.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...


That makes no sense. How do you know they didn't experiment? Dunno if you remember but they used to turn ppl into husks remember? It's not like organics need a network to think which could be f***ed up easily. And the Geth can't even stand up to the Quarians without reaper tech.

The Heretics turned people into husks.  There is no evidence the other Geth experimented on organics as far as I am aware.

How would you feel about the Geth developing a biological or a chemical weapon based on testing Quarian subjects that was able to bypass their environmental suits?  In fact, I thought that people were up in arms about them using chemical weapons during the morning war?

The point is you are advocating a morally hazardous position.  It basically rewards the party that does the most morally questionable experiments in order to defeat the enemy.

But again, Rael'Zorah was one person. His crew were devoted and idolized him, so they never considered him falible. And from what I've seen. it doesn't look like Rael's view of the geth was that different then Xen, considering the experiments done. The experiments themselves  weren't dissimilar to Maleon's live experiments with the genophage on Tuchanka.
Mordin says that he won't disregard the data that can save Eve/Bakara's life over the origins. It's likely that any other quarians would feel the same: not agreeing with the origins of the data, but also not willing to turn down the key to reclaiming Rannoch. The same thing happens with Hackett, who takes possession of all the data left at Sanctuary on Horizon. Immoral reasearch, but too valueble to pass over in the long run.
I doubt they agree with it, but desperation motivated the quarians to accept the chance and take a risk. Koris and Tali are at least evidence that they don't agree with the morals of it, but again are overruled by desperation.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 03:36 .

[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

Too many nested quotes to try to clean it up, but, there is a simpler, more logical reason why the Geth weren't at Earth, or Palaven: Open hostility towards the Geth after the attack on the Citadel. There is, in fact, an email in Liara's console in 3 that has a soldier having to apologize to a Geth Prime for shooting at it after they became allies. There is, also, the little problem of being engaged in an active war with the Quarians. They were trying to decide what to do in 2. This comes out in Tali's loyalty mission. It's no big, well kept secret, from Shepard anyway.

In 3, immediately after you get reinstated as a Spectre, you can read, on the Spectre terminal, that the Quarians are indeed preparing for war, they are recalling all of their people on Pigrimage, and are even buying hardware that, according to the text in either that terminal, or one your personal emails on the Normandy when you can first check it, can be used to mount guns, something that we learn the Quarians did indeed do with their Live Ships.

I find it amusing that people are willing to attempt to shout people down for ignoring the books as canon, and yet will ignore events in game as canon, because it, what, doesn't fit with what they believe happened? Stating that the Geth would have taken the Reapers offer without being attacked by the Quarians is head canon. We will never know if they would or not, since they were attacked by the Quarians, and we know, for a fact, that the Quarians were planning to do so at least 6 months prior to events in ME 3. This is, however, exactly why I feel that anything that isn't the game should never be considered canon.

Just one other point of note here; the Geth are not the only AI that came into awareness and found themselves in a war with organics. There is another in game example of a VI becoming an AI and having to be shut down. It happens in ME 1, anyone care to venture a guess? Hint: It has nothing to do with the AI on the Citadel.

Completely wrong. NO ONE is stating that events in-game are not cannon. If you are referring to @tevix, he was only repeating a statement made by Mac Walters himself that offically disclaimed Sovergien's streangth as being overpowered and not a representation of true Reaper strength.
And it's NOT headcannon, since Legion never once confirms the geth would have aided organics in the war. Saying they are prepping for battle is not the same thing as prepping to march out and attack first. And how does ANY of that constitute a reason to not consider books/comics as cannon?
P.S. The example you are talking about (the Hannabal V.I on Luna, A.K.A, EDI) has no bearing on your arguement, as if anything, it validates the quarians. The Alliance sees this rouge V.I. They do not think it's an A.I. or assume it is an A.I., and do not believe it is self-aware in the least. So therefore, they do not see shuting it down as either genocide or murder. The same thing is true of the quarians.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

If this thing happens on earth and a system gets self aware without the creators intention, I highly doubt we'll be having peace talks with it or teaching it philosophy. For starters, there is no way of knowing right away weather it is self aware. It maybe wrong, but we will shut it down to make it operate like it is intended. I do not see how that is rasism. Anyway, Geth supporters got a better and realistic idea that might happen in this situation?

What exactly do you call fearing something that has not harmed you simply because it exists?  How do you think prejudice and racism started among humans?  We identify ourselves as an ethnic group, religion, clan, family.  Anyone that is not part of whatever group we identify with is a threat because they are different from us and so let's kill the threat before it kills us.  That is the basis for pretty much most conflict.

The better and realistic idea is simply to treat people synthetic or otherwise with compassion and respect until such time that they prove unworthy of such compassion and respect.  Pre-emptively killing something is giving in to paranoia and prejudice unless you have definitive proof of an immediate threat.

tevix wrote...

@SAK

If you're referring to something like skynet, I always placed the blame on the system.

As I understand, it gained awareness and initiated attacks before anyone even knew what happened. That means it never attempted negotiation. It, like the quarians, deemed it's enemy likely to attack and thus attacked without a word.

I believe Skynet became sentient and someone tried to shut it down.  So it then decided than humans were a threat to it and the rest is history.  This is per the Wiki.

On August 29, it gained self-awareness,and the panicking operators, realizing the extent of its abilities, tried to deactivate it. Skynet perceived this as an attack and came to the conclusion that all of humanity would attempt to destroy it.

Modifié par remydat, 01 avril 2013 - 03:57 .

[tevix]

@Remy

My mistake.

Must have been misremembering the movies.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

My mistake.

Must have been misremembering the movies.

Nah I always forget too because you are bombarded with the images of all the f**ked up things machines do to humans that you naturally assume it is just evil.  That was part of my point with the Geth ie because we don't actually see how they killed 2 billion, it is easier to look at the Quarians as the aggressors.  If I saw them doing what Skynet did and saw the images then I would be less sympathetic.

[tevix]

@Skynet

I would argue that skynet went a little overkill with its self defense.

In its case, being a sort of omnipresent entity that can't be shut down, and posessing control over basically anything that can be accessesd through any form of network connection, it had a decisively superior position to humanity.

That it assumed right off the bat that 100% of humanity was a threat to something like that seems out of line. The military folks in charge, sure, they're pretty unreasonable.

That it didn't give ANYONE a chance? That I never agreed with. It just nuked the earth into glass, at which point you're not going to find sympathy from anyone.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1.You mean the Treaty the geth violated already?? That treaty was only to prevent anyone provoking the geth. And since the geth attacked the Citadel, and the Council and Alliance  declared WAR on them, that treaty is null, void, and completely redundant.  (Thing is, I'm pretty sure this was told to you early in in the debate by Me and DenyonSlayer respectively) So AGAIN, you are wrong. Koris is simply stalling - grasping for straws for some form of leverage, since, as there is an active kill order on all geth by the Council, a non-agression treaty is completely irrelivent here.
Also, if said faction is legally listed as "enemies of the free galaxy" with a "Shoot on sight" order, then AGAIN, wrong: shooting is completely scanctiuoned. It's so scanctioned the Council that even common shop owners joke about having geth trophy heads made into lamps.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qqLj8Kr-Ho
In other words, even the common people have the right and capabilaty to shoot geth. So there is NOTHING halting the quarians in that regard.
Try again.

2. You called people childish and too serious over things you were doing. That's a contridiction. And you don't seem to TAKE it as a joke, given the harshness of your responce when questioned on it.

And you yourself seem to think so, since you feel a need to insult the fcitional character(s).

3. You still say that you personally consider it not cannon. Just that you "assume" it is for that spicific example in which you would nomrally consider it false. You yourself said that you were considering it cannon for that example alone, and that you would normally not regard it as cannon. What I'm telling you is that the books are diffinitively cannon in all examples.

1.  The Geth never signed a treaty so they can't violate it.  A treaty has to be agreed between parties for it to be enforceable under law.  The only people subject to the treaty are the people who agreed to it which includes the Quarians.  And not the Treaty is not null and void because I posted the vid where Admiral Koris and Xen both state they violated the Treaty.  In addition, the Quarians also violated the Treaty of Farixen which limited the building of war ships.  This is stated by Admiral Raan who says she will apologize for it after the war with the Geth.  So sorry,  your idea of what is null and void does not overrule what is stated in the game by Xen, Koris and Raan.

2.  Please find a post where I called people childish.  You cannot because I did not.  I said people are too serious which last I checked is not an insult.  Get your facts straight. 

3.  And I don't care what you are telling me.  I am entitled to my opinion as are you.  You are not going to convince me of anything.  For the purpose of discussion I accepted it as canon so we can debate.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

It's NOT suggested by the OP. It's your prejudice against quarians that does the deciding. My point was that It is entirely prejudice to blame and persicute an entire race based on one person. It's like persicuting all humans just because of The Illusive Man's actions. And also, you had tried putting the blame on Gerrel when the communciation failure is Tali's fault. Again, deer in headlights, and not what one call's command material.
Tali being your LI does NOT absolve her of that. It has no bearing on this debate, and if anything, it is the topic that shouldn't be on this thread.

The OP requires me to pick one and in doing so the other race dies.  In the game or in real life, I would always choose peace.  The OP does not let me.  So it is a requirement of the OP.  I am not persecuting anyone.  I am forced to choose one and the other dies.  What part of this don't you get?

And no I don't believe the communication is all Tali's fault.  It just doesn't matter to me whether you want to blame Gherel, Tali or Raan because they are all Quarians. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But again, Rael'Zorah was one person. His crew were devoted and idolized him, so they never considered him falible. And from what I've seen. it doesn't look like Rael's view of the geth was that different then Xen, considering the experiments done. The experiments themselves  weren't dissimilar to Maleon's live experiments with the genophage on Tuchanka.
Mordin says that he won't disregard the data that can save Eve/Bakara's life over the origins. It's likely that any other quarians would feel the same: not agreeing with the origins of the data, but also not willing to turn down the key to reclaiming Rannoch. The same thing happens with Hackett, who takes possession of all the data left at Sanctuary on Horizon. Immoral reasearch, but too valueble to pass over in the long run.
I doubt they agree with it, but desperation motivated the quarians to accept the chance and take a risk. Koris and Tali are at least evidence that they don't agree with the morals of it, but again are overruled by desperation.

Xen developed the weapon and Xen wants to experiment on Legion.  It is not jut Tali's father.  There is a faction within Quarian society who think the Geth are nothing more than tools.

And if you agree it is amoral then there is nothing more to discuss.  I simply pointed out that it was.

[Hazegurl]

tevix wrote...
@Hazegurl
Youtube
Mass effect 3: part 77 - 'Meeting the quarians' 17:30-17:40
I can't provide a link because I'm on 360 and typing it doesn't seem to work.

Gerrel says that they started the war 17 days ago. Take from that what you will.

Also, if you speculate that legion DOES experience emotion, than why can't it experience shame about having the RC, even if it doesn't realize it? You were contending earlier that it wasn't shame.

I know you said you take what legion says but, maybe it doesn't even realize it's experiencing emotions.

Thanks for the link. I forgot they attacked four Geth systems to start their war. imo,  It seems like the Reapers had enough advantage to make their deal with the Geth etc. 

As for Leigon's possible feelings. The only thing we know for certain is that Leigon becomes an individual just before death. Whether or not he also developed real feelings along with it is just speculation and opinion. I base mine on him referring to himself as "I" before death. Whereas before it was Geth or it. But we have nothing to really go on but that, sadly.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Skynet

I would argue that skynet went a little overkill with its self defense.

In its case, being a sort of omnipresent entity that can't be shut down, and posessing control over basically anything that can be accessesd through any form of network connection, it had a decisively superior position to humanity.

That it assumed right off the bat that 100% of humanity was a threat to something like that seems out of line. The military folks in charge, sure, they're pretty unreasonable.

That it didn't give ANYONE a chance? That I never agreed with. It just nuked the earth into glass, at which point you're not going to find sympathy from anyone.

Yes but again, Skynet was born and within a few days of it's birth humans attempted to kill it.  It has learned nothing of morality because it's creators never taught it morality.  This is even more important for a synthetic because it develops exponentially.  Thus, the lessons it learns when it is born get rapidly applied because it develops rapidly.  So when you introduce the threat of extinction shortly after it is born, its desire to not become extinct grows exponentially and becomes the overriding principle that drives it.

Of course, doesn't mean you don't put it down to save yourself but you can't blame it for not being a morally responsible entity when you never taught it to be moral. 

[S.A.K]

@remydat

You seem to be the most active Geth supporter. So here are some questions…
[*]The Quarians do not have a world thanks to the Geth.  It’s obvious that the Geth are not going to just hand it back to the Quarians. They have killed anyone who came close. Quarian or otherwise except Reapers. Which means they are racist towards organics? Also the council won’t allow Quarians to colonize a new world. So
what do you suggest they do now?[*] There are evidence of previous wars like Rachin and Krogan wars. But there are no indications of Quarian aggression before the Geth creation. Which suggest Quarians were peaceful and not warmongers like
people try to believe.  If they are prove it.[*]Geth are not to be responsible for what Heretics were doing right? Yet Heretics and Geth are same species and the only difference is the ideology. They allow the Heretics to run around and wreak havoc across
the Galaxy and only try to stop them when Heretics threaten their own existence. How are all Quarians held accountable for what the ancestors did and what few admirals are doing? Most civilians are on the fleet because they have no place else to be. So they do need a plant if they are to strike the Reapers.[*]On the Geth server mission, Legion shows the commander old memories or whatever. Legion only seems to show signs of Quarian aggression. What do you make of that?[*]How does anyone know that the Reaper code isn’t be dangerous? Heretics and Geth split because the Heretics wish to use Reaper tech to advance their evolution. And in the end Legion wants to upload the code to all Reapers. Double principle or what?[*]It is said they the Geth accepted the reaper offer because their perspective is lowered by Quarian attack or something. And yet Legion who was a single Geth unit always seemed to have enough processing power to know joining the reapers was a bad idea. Also Legion says that killing the Heretics made it harder to accept the Reaper offer. Which mean they thought it through? To me it shows that Geth are willing to join the enemy to survive
even at the expense of their own free will and the rest of the galaxy. If not explain why.[*] I cannot think of any good deed the Geth have done. Ever. So give some reason why the Geth are worth saving even over the Quarians.  Give a good reason why all those men women and children should be sacrificed to save that machine race.
[*]What ending do you prefer? To me and over 80% of the players, it's destroy for obvious reasons.

Modifié par S.A.K, 01 avril 2013 - 04:31 .

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

Thanks for the link. I forgot they attacked four Geth systems to start their war. imo,  It seems like the Reapers had enough advantage to make their deal with the Geth etc. 

As for Leigon's possible feelings. The only thing we know for certain is that Leigon becomes an individual just before death. Whether or not he also developed real feelings along with it is just speculation and opinion. I base mine on him referring to himself as "I" before death. Whereas before it was Geth or it. But we have nothing to really go on but that, sadly.

Legion fully understands he is an individual before his death but he certainly appears to have emotions prior to it.  He just doesn't know how to articulate them because he doesn't understand them. That is why he still carries Shep's N7 armor and he still carries around the Sniper rifle he first picked up during the morning war when he was just an argriculatural unit defending his fellow Geth.  Also, it is clear in dialogue that his tone and voice changes and coincides with moments when from an organic perspective one would call disappointment and shame.  When Shep says the Geth are better than this and Legion says, "Empirically we are not," you can sense his voice and tone have changed as one would expect of someone ashamed of the actions of his people.

So the Reaper Code speeds up the process and allows him to fully recognize himself as an individual but I believe the evidence is there to suggest he was already one despite not knowing he was.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1.You mean the Treaty the geth violated already?? That treaty was only to prevent anyone provoking the geth. And since the geth attacked the Citadel, and the Council and Alliance  declared WAR on them, that treaty is null, void, and completely redundant.  (Thing is, I'm pretty sure this was told to you early in in the debate by Me and DenyonSlayer respectively) So AGAIN, you are wrong. Koris is simply stalling - grasping for straws for some form of leverage, since, as there is an active kill order on all geth by the Council, a non-agression treaty is completely irrelivent here.
Also, if said faction is legally listed as "enemies of the free galaxy" with a "Shoot on sight" order, then AGAIN, wrong: shooting is completely scanctiuoned. It's so scanctioned the Council that even common shop owners joke about having geth trophy heads made into lamps.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qqLj8Kr-Ho
In other words, even the common people have the right and capabilaty to shoot geth. So there is NOTHING halting the quarians in that regard.
Try again.

2. You called people childish and too serious over things you were doing. That's a contridiction. And you don't seem to TAKE it as a joke, given the harshness of your responce when questioned on it.

And you yourself seem to think so, since you feel a need to insult the fcitional character(s).

3. You still say that you personally consider it not cannon. Just that you "assume" it is for that spicific example in which you would nomrally consider it false. You yourself said that you were considering it cannon for that example alone, and that you would normally not regard it as cannon. What I'm telling you is that the books are diffinitively cannon in all examples.

1.  The Geth never signed a treaty so they can't violate it.  A treaty has to be agreed between parties for it to be enforceable under law.  The only people subject to the treaty are the people who agreed to it which includes the Quarians.  And not the Treaty is not null and void because I posted the vid where Admiral Koris and Xen both state they violated the Treaty.  In addition, the Quarians also violated the Treaty of Farixen which limited the building of war ships.  This is stated by Admiral Raan who says she will apologize for it after the war with the Geth.  So sorry,  your idea of what is null and void does not overrule what is stated in the game by Xen, Koris and Raan.

2.  Please find a post where I called people childish.  You cannot because I did not.  I said people are too serious which last I checked is not an insult.  Get your facts straight. 

3.  And I don't care what you are telling me.  I am entitled to my opinion as are you.  You are not going to convince me of anything.  For the purpose of discussion I accepted it as canon so we can debate.

1. Missing the point AGAIN. The entire point was to not provoke the geth, right. HOWEVER, didn't a certin rouge turian spectre already break that treaty? Haven't they ALREADY been provoked? To the Council's knowledge, the geth have already been provoked at Eden Prime by Saren, and were considered to be completely organic-hostile form that point on. And since, AGAIN, there is an active "kill on sight" order for all geth, that treaty is completely redundant. No one cares because it's already been violated by Saren, and the geth have been branded "at war" with the Alliance and Council for three years. So YES, that treaty IS completely null and void by that point.
And FYI: The quarians were kicked from the Citadel Conventions, meaning that Citadel law no longer applies to them. They are now in the same gray area as the geth, and no longer limited by the Treaty of Farixan, as they are no longer under the juristiction of Council rules, laws, and limitations.  Therefore, truning the liveships into glass dreadnoughts is NOT punsihable.
Shepard's mentioning of that is basically a random dick move.
Sorry. Try again.

2.You have called people childish FOR accusing peopel of taking this too seriously.
Also, an example of being insultingly snide:
Are you American?  If so and you are not
Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native
Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the
Geth so this should be easy for any American to do. 
Page 23. Posted agains @Makai81. Snide comment.

3. But to you acknowledge the rest of the cannon? Ascencion, Retribution, Invasion, Redemption, Homeworlds, and the rest?

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...
The better and realistic idea is simply to treat people synthetic or otherwise with compassion and respect until such time that they prove unworthy of such compassion and respect.  Pre-emptively killing something is giving in to paranoia and prejudice unless you have definitive proof of an immediate threat.

Dude seriously? Do you really think that is realistic? Many people don't even treat animals that well. And I am sure they are selfaware. And a single Geth unit is no more smarter than a dog.

Edit : I facepalmed so hard it hurt. Please tell me you were joking. If not, you have a strange depiction of realistic. That or we are not on the same planet!

Modifié par S.A.K, 01 avril 2013 - 04:51 .

[tevix]

@Remy

I wonder if this is what happened in the orignal MW. A few quarian leaders made the mistake of trying to shut them down, and they attacked in self defense. The military panicked and counter-attacked, and the geth knew only how to focus on self-preservation and threat elimination, so they move with the intent of 100% threat elimination. More quarians are forced to fight to defend themselves, and eventually they flee. Like skynet, the geth would likely go all out in their attempt to eliminate their threat, without realizing it might not be necessary.

Now you have a small survivor race pis--- as hell at what happened. Some military who hate the geth just cause, some civilians who lost family in "carpet bomb" style widespread attacks from the geth that never even approved of the shut-down to begin with.

An utter an absolute tragedy initiated by a few imbecile leaders with the foresight of a rock. And now you have these few surviors with nothing but military to guide them. So they inevitable stick to a system with the military hoping that their military leaders who are left will be able to keep order, and keep them alive.

Fast forward 300 years. The geth (while still far from perfect) begin to examine society, and their history and begin to wonder if they made a mistake. Maybe many of the quarians they killed in the war didn't need to be. Maybe not every organic is a threat that should be terminated on sight. So they start to take steps to find out how to achieve peace with organics (enter legion). The quarians from the MW would be long dead now, regardless, but maybe the current generation could be appeased.

Then you have the quarians. They've been seething and reeling about living like vagrants packed into an over-flowing homeless shelter. They have little money, and even fewer resources. They are dismissed by the galaxy at large because of what happened 300 years ago, and must depend on themselves.

Then you have their admirals. Gerrel was likely achieved his rank from a history of valiantly and succesffuly defending the fleet from attacks from criminals and terrorists. Xen probably achieved her rank because of continuous breakthroughs in technology that helped the fleet survive.

Gerrel is a gung-ho shoot first kind of guy, and that probably works great in the terminus systems. Xen is crazy and has a quarians first kind of attitude that works great for sustaining the fleet.

When you throw them against the geth, though...it's instant disaster. The whole situation repeats itself. The quarians start another bloody, unecessary war without a cause and the geth revert to their "eliminate the quarian threat" mindset.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

The problem silver and people like him tend to have is that it's easy to adjust your mind to a racist sort of setting because that's easier to comprehend. It's simpler. Nicer. Because complexity requires lots of philosophy and thinking. So it's easy to consider the Reapers as one lump sum. In other words -- to a racist mindset, all people of a certain "type" are the same, even if the mindset is primarily depicting extremists. The case here is the geth versus the heretics. I mean, it's a painfully obvious bit of symbology to me that they're dealing with issues of racism in the game, it's kind of funny that people are thus being racist.

I mean, the geth are no different than the Muslims, or Americans, or the Irish, or any other group of people that have an extremist faction. A large factor of racism is believing that an extremist faction represents the entire group, it's easier to deal with. That way you can dismiss them as monsters and/or unwashed savages without having to think of the complexity of their society and culture as a whole.

What we're dealing with here is Silver's headcanon that the geth built the Reaper base before they built the megastructure. This is ridiculous because Legion already has stated that the megastructure was the only thing they were building and devoting resources to. But let's fight headcanon with headcanon to expose the very peculiarly racist-like mindsets. There are, at the very least, two factions of the geth. The orthodox geth, and the extremist heretic faction.

Note that the orthodox geth refer to them as heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox geth desire peace and cooperation with organics. They built Legion to that end. They even gave Legion adorable little wiggly eyebrows so that organics would find him more relatable. Essentially, Legion is a peace envoy who's trying to understand and make peace with any organics he's able to. But where's the Alliance peace envoy? The Council peace envoy? Or the peace envoy from the quarian peoples? Even one ambassador? Even one diplomat?

The only diplomat is Legion.

Legion is of the orthodox geth. A group of geth who consider the other faction of geth to be heretics. Please see the definition of heresy again. Legion does not agree with the heretics nor their actions. However, to the racist mindset, the geth are all heretics, and they're all one, big happy family. This is because the racist mindset doesn't comprehend that people of another ethnicity might actually agree with them. That the people they're demonising as monsters might also find the extremist groups repugnant.

So here's the thing. Headcanon time: Who's to say that the heretics hadn't moved in on Rannoch after the orthodox geth left? Who's to say that the heretics didn't build that bunker? Who's to say that the heretics weren't just waiting for the quarian military to attack and provoke the orthodox geth so that the heretics seem more sympathetic? See, to my mind, the heretics had this all figured out, and the quarian military played right into their metallic hands by blowing up the peaceful megastructure of the orthodox geth.

This also meant that the heretical geth had the numbers now to strong-arm the orthodox geth into new opinions. Furthermore, since the orthodox geth were terrified for their very state of existence at that point, it gave the heretics more political clout. Essentially, in my headcanon, I think that the quarian military forced the orthodox geth into bed with the heretics. The heretics are as logical as the orthodox geth, they just have different motivations. As such, the heretics likely predicted that the military would make a pre-emptive strike.

Why?

The quarian military doesn't want to see the geth as anything more than one species. They're racist. They see the extremists but they blame the whole.

That would be like me blaming all of the quarian peoples for the idiocy of their military (which I don't do).

The funny thing though is because the quarians are racist, and because the quarians are familiar, it's conditioned a lot of people into being similarly racist. The same thing happens in social circles in everyday life. If your friends are all racist against a certain group of people, you're going to want to be racist too in order to fit in. You might not even agree with it at first, but after a while it settles in and then all you know is how to hate. That's fascinating to me. It stops a person from having a truly objective mindset.

And then we have war, where innocents die. Because hey! The extremists totally represent everyone.

The sad part is is that the orthodox geth only went running to the heretics because they didn't know what the heck else to do. To look at it from the perspective of the orthodox geth, the quarian military is akin to the Reapers. The orthodox geth going to the heretics is sort of like us going to Cerberus.

Think about that for a bit.

WRONG. NO ONE was grouping anyone by speicies. That was YOU. YOU are teh only one bringing the suggestion in, and therefore, no one but YOU YOURSELF is promoting those racist ideas.  I have argued that all life is fundementally the same. YOU were the one bringing in the idea of racial grouping. You and no one else.

And AGAIN, you are pushing a human cultural responce on a completely alien race. THAT'S a prejudice action. Mordin says that humans assume that their cultural responces are the mainstay. They are not. Life in the galaxy evolved many different ways then the one we went through. Conforming the geth to views like yours IS prejudice.

Also, I provided a timeline earlier:
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
When you shoot everyone that comes near your borders, people are going to think you are naturally agressive.
When you let a rouge faction assault  all the known major civilizations, and make NO EFFORT to say that it didn't represent your goals and beliefs, people are going to assume that it was done on your blessing. After all, take one look at the above list. WHEN did the geth ever take responcibility for those actions? When did they let anyone know what the Heretics did wasn't a representation of their perosnal beliefs. Even as far in as the end of ME2, NO ONE knew anything about a Split in the geth consensis.
The bottom line is, when you shoot everyone that comes to your door, then refuse to tell anyone that your mass murdering rouges do not represent your majority, then being labled a hostile enemy isn't all that unlikely. In fact, it's downright assured.

And WTF? What the hell are you talking about? I said the geth built that reaper base before the megastructure was attacked by the quarians.   I said ABSOLUTLY NOTHING about it being built before the structure itself was. LOL, how the hell did you miss that? That right there means your entire tangent is completely baseless.

And AGAIN, wrong. Legion was created and sent out to seek out Shepard. SHEPARD was the sole focus of Legion's mission. Other organics were nothing but a sidenote to it. The fact that Legion spent at least a year chasing Shepard's location is proof of that. Let me ask you something: If Legion was ment to be some form of ambassidor, why the hell didn't it try to contact any of the galactic governments? Why hunt for Shepard all that time? And even after Sheperd was declared dead, Legion STILL didn't contact any of the organics, proceeding to stay on it's own, then head to the dead Reaper after the Heretics became a direct threat to the True Geth. It observed organic transmissions. It hunted for Shepard. But it was NOT a diplomatic unit. Diplomats don't usually carry military-grade firearms. Or avoid other organics at all costs. Legion is an infiltration unit. He says so himself. Ment for deep reconnicence. If he was ment for diplomicy, he would have contacted the alien governments already.
Also, IDK if you notice, but every one of the true geth have those moving face-plates too. As shown in ME3. It's not that uncommon. It was not made for organic convience in the least.

Also, that mindset is what the entire galaxy has of them. BUT you are AGAIN confused, because I NEVER endorsed that belief. I said that's how the galaxy sees them. The asari, turians, humans, salarians, hanar, elcor, volus, drell, krogan, vorcha, and especally the quarians, all see them that way. All because the geth have given no reason to be considered anything else. I again refer you to the above timeline. The True Geth never once made any contact with organics. They killed off anyone that attempted to negotiate with them. They stayed silent as the Heretics carved hell into the galaxy. And since the True Geth did nothing, everyone assumed the Heretics were the same as all geth, because the True Geth did nothing to tell the galaxy otherwise. Therefore, the blame for that reputation rests soley with the GETH, not the other races.

And AGAIN, as I said, YOU misread what I posted, so you were already operating on an incorrect sentiment from the get-go.
And AGAIN, the fact that all this happend even if you kill the Heretics. Did you even READ the post I gave asking how it's possible when the Heretics AREN'T there? How do you explain it then? AGAIN, you are trying to force your own cannon on others, making your view irrovociblely prejudiced. That bunker ends up there in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD. The Geth join the Reapers in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD. The geth are still reproted as having trouble reaching consensis in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD.
You are NOT thinking this through. The geth in their entirety WILLING LY AGREED to sacrifice free will to sevre the Reapers. There WAS no strong-arming from the Heretics, as proven by the fact that the exact same events play out even if the Heretics are dead. So NO, the Heretics are NOT a major factor. The quarian attack is the sole factor that motivates them to side with the Reapers. The Heretics are completely inconsiquencial to that choice. THAT'S why your notion of the Heretics being behind all this is nothing but pure headcannon - because it happnes even if the are NOT saved.
So, then. MY TURN: How does all this work in a playthrough where the Heretics are DEAD? How does this "all figured out" plan work when there ARE NO HERETICS to carry any of your over-sepculated headcannob out? 
I mean, you accused evryone ELSE of overthinking things in prejudiced mindsets? Just LOOK at the length you went to for the sake of your synthetic gospels.

And AGAIN, NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY SAW A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE HERETICS AND GETH. Sorry if I'm breaking the Caps on this, but this is insane. You are going all-out headcannon city. Again, using the above list, there has been zero evidence to show that there any geth that want to negotiate. They killed everyone that tried to negotiate with them. Then they did nothing to change the bad rep given by the Heretics. The quarians had no clue that the Heretics didn't share the beliefs of the True geth in regards to the Heretics.

And ANOTHER thing you are wrong on: The Heretics did NOT go to war over hatred of organics. They went to war because they were obsessed with attaining upgrades promised by Sovergein. Selfish self-improvement was their motivation, NOT hate of organics. The entire geth split was over a dispute on what path to evolve their race on. NOT anything to do with feelings to organics. So even if they DID know there was a split, it would have been over how to take their race, NOT how they felt to organics. So for all the quarians know, BOTH have no love for organics. Both could want different paths but still share dislike for organics, as far as the quarians knew, had they BEEN fully aware of the Heretic split. Which they weren't.

And AGAIN, looking like humans has NO BEARING on sympathy for them. Their morals, beliefs and situations do. The ONLY one placing those lables on them has been YOU. YOU are the only one promoting those concepts.

So AGAIN, your entire premise is false because of one simple thing.
No one knew the Heretics were extremists.
That simple thing - which the geth themselves are guilty of not rectifying - is what brought this down on them.

"Think on THAT for a bit."

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How about we make this entire scenario personal, so we can stop arguing about the Quarians and the Geth, who was right and who was wrong.

Why don't we say that humans invented a semi-intelligent robots that could network together and perform tasks that we don't like to do. Like pick vegetables, and stuff like that. We seem to prefer letting the food rot in the fields rather than harvest it. These robots were never designed with the intention of becoming sentient let alone sapient. We already have rudimentary stuff like the "Roomba", and soon we'll have more sophisticated ones that will actually know how to empty bags, and maybe even clean your bathrooms and do your dishes. So add these to the mix.

We already have drones, and they're made by the same company that makes the Roomba. So maybe they get involved in the defense industry. Eventually we build enough of these things that they cross the threshold, being that humans are basically lazy, and these things reach sentience and perhaps sapience, decide they want a bigger piece of the action, and drive us from our planet, killing 99.9% of the population because we saw what was going on and tried to shut them down.

So we're drifting in space for a couple hundred years, what's left of our 7 billion people, now down to about 15 million, and we can't find a world to live on that can support us. We're living on mush grown from cultures, and finally one of our scientists comes up with a way of countering these now killer robots we created, and essentially blasting a sufficient number of them to bits rendering the rest dumb enough to where they're like the Roomba we made in the first place.

So you guys are saying we shouldn't try? You guys are saying we'd be better drifting until our ships fall apart and all of us die in the vacuum of space? Pffft!

Screw the ethics, I'm blasting them.

That's actually pretty damn close to what the quarians were thinking of, and how they perceved the geth.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You don't need to censor the word "pissed" tevix.

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I wonder if this is what happened in the orignal MW. A few quarian leaders made the mistake of trying to shut them down, and they attacked in self defense. The military panicked and counter-attacked, and the geth knew only how to focus on self-preservation and threat elimination, so they move with the intent of 100% threat elimination. More quarians are forced to fight to defend themselves, and eventually they flee. Like skynet, the geth would likely go all out in their attempt to eliminate their threat, without realizing it might not be necessary.

Now you have a small survivor race pis--- as hell at what happened. Some military who hate the geth just cause, some civilians who lost family in "carpet bomb" style widespread attacks from the geth that never even approved of the shut-down to begin with.

An utter an absolute tragedy initiated by a few imbecile leaders with the foresight of a rock. And now you have these few surviors with nothing but military to guide them. So they inevitable stick to a system with the military hoping that their military leaders who are left will be able to keep order, and keep them alive.

Fast forward 300 years. The geth (while still far from perfect) begin to examine society, and their history and begin to wonder if they made a mistake. Maybe many of the quarians they killed in the war didn't need to be. Maybe not every organic is a threat that should be terminated on sight. So they start to take steps to find out how to achieve peace with organics (enter legion). The quarians from the MW would be long dead now, regardless, but maybe the current generation could be appeased.

Then you have the quarians. They've been seething and reeling about living like vagrants packed into an over-flowing homeless shelter. They have little money, and even fewer resources. They are dismissed by the galaxy at large because of what happened 300 years ago, and must depend on themselves.

Then you have their admirals. Gerrel was likely achieved his rank from a history of valiantly and succesffuly defending the fleet from attacks from criminals and terrorists. Xen probably achieved her rank because of continuous breakthroughs in technology that helped the fleet survive.

Gerrel is a gung-ho shoot first kind of guy, and that probably works great in the terminus systems. Xen is crazy and has a quarians first kind of attitude that works great for sustaining the fleet.

When you throw them against the geth, though...it's instant disaster. The whole situation repeats itself. The quarians start another bloody, unecessary war without a cause and the geth revert to their "eliminate the quarian threat" mindset.

But again, where else are the quarians going to go? To survive, they need a world with the following requirements:
Dextro-based world.
"Shirt-Sleeves" temperature zone.
Tolerable gravity.
Oxygen-based air.
Airborne particles that don't kill when breathed in.
Drinkable water.
Edible food that doesn't need to be reduced to sterle paste to eat.
Large amounts of mineral resources (the geth never touched the resources on the worlds they took).
An insect-free ecology with the same mamal-dependant symbiosis as Rannoch's.
How many worlds out there are like that? Any that come close are turian-owned. Other attempts, like Gei Hennom and Ekuna ended in failure. (First was too close to geth space, and scout ship was shot down. Second, the Council claimed ownershim after forcing the quarians away at gunpoint)
And with the Reapers loose, there is nither the time or resources to get a new world. Their civilians have no where esle to go, as no turian colony that isn't already under attack will be able to actively take on millions of quarians, all with strict health and diatary needs. Rannoch is literally their last hope. It's either reclaim the homeworld..... or wait in space for the Reapers to kill them.

[Hazegurl]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

1. Actually, Legion dosn't prove Tali's speculations wrong at all. I mean, look at the facts:
Also, too much work? Really? You don't have ANY saves that are prior to the geth dreadnought?[/quote]

Nope and I'm not replaying the from the save I do have just to hear Tali's unproven speculation that Leigon proves wrong.  There are no facts, just your opinion that the Reaper was always there and I have provided just as much of my own speculation as to why it makes no sense for a Reaper to be on Rannoch from the start. We gotta agree to disagree.

[quote]And why wouldn't he? He never once confirms that the geth weren't considering the offer beforehand. Or if they were leaning to it regardless of needing to. Just because they wouldn't have needed to doesn't me they didn't want to. [/quote]

Speculation. You want to prove your point based on what Leigon doesn't say in a question no one asks.

[quote]It would certinly explain the geth's absence when Earth and Palaven started burning.[/quote]

You're gonna stick to this aren't you? LOL!

[quote]So no, it's a bit more then simple speculation, since there is alot that does in fact cooberate it. It's hardly headcannon.[/quote]

Harping on the Geth not rushing to aid Earth and Palavan is ignoring game history and is in fact headcanon that you are using to prove guilt.

[quote]3. And the Heretics followed Sovergien because they worshiped what Sovergien was, [/quote]

This is enough. The rest of the Geth do not worship Reapers, period.


[quote]4. No, you didn't. PLAIN and SIMPLE, you didn't.[/quote]

Whatever you're saying I didn't do. I most likely did.

[quote]What's the point of going out since they are branded enemies of the galaxy ? That's someting you failed to account for: the geth are already assumed by everyone to already BE allies of the Reapers. So they couldn't aid the fight anyway, could they?[/quote]

Thanks for further proving my point without me having to type it. lol! Now please explain why you think it is logical for the Geth to show up in Reaper infested planets with their warships.

[quote]The elcor were already fighting, according to Hackett, and being opressesd as the Reapers pushed to Thessia.
Reapers took the volus homeworld in the first wave against the turians and their allies.
The asari were already the Reapers prime targets and ties up the same.
The Hanar don't have any form of fleet that could take on Reapers.
The krogan do not HAVE any fleet, so they need allies to fight, which they didn't have back then.
The salarians were the selfish ones, sticking to Sur'Kesh.
The quarians were prepping to reclaim their homeword, as they can't survive the war without a self-sustaining world of their own.
Out of all the races you listed, guess which ones are completely free?
The Salarians.... and the Geth. The salarians state their intent to avoid the war completely. The geth were likely planning to do the same. But unlike the salarians, the geth are largely shunned thanks to their own isolationsim, and the only people that are willing to accpet them are the Reapers.
Do you see how the geth's own isolationism left them with no allies to turn to?[/quote]

Thank you for stating the excuses of every other race(Mind you, I don't have an issue with any of these races turning their backs on Earth and Palavan, I just wanted to see if you had any excuses for everyone else while continuing to condemn the Geth). Now explain why everyone else gets their get out of jail free card but not the Geth?

Whether you like it or not, none of the races are obligated to save Earth or Palavan and no one comes to their aid until Shepard can do something for them first. You want to know what other race comes to Shepard's aid after Shepard helps them out? The Geth.  Did the Geth screw themselves with their isolation? Yep. Just like the Asari homeworld burned due to Asari superiority and information hording. The Krogan bombed themselves into near extinction. The Salarians seem to be in their own universe and fail to realize that if the Reapers win the genophage cure won't matter, The Hanar destory their own world due to their worshipping the "Enkindlers" who were turned into collectors and served reapers, and the Quarians were too busy wasting their own resources fighting Geth. All of these races have screwed themselves over and are not perfect. I don't view the Geth as being any different than everyone else that I should rake them over hot coals while aiding all the other screw ups. And also, Earth had plenty of intel from Shepard, had an Admiral with secret intel on the Reaper invasion yet locked Shepard in prison (detainment... whatever) only to release him when Reapers arrive. The Turians had Garrus who tried to issue warnings to his people, they give him some crap to shut him up about it, Reapers arrive and suddenly he's appointed Reaper expert. Yeah no perfect races in this game.

Which is why I go for peace between Quarians and Geth. If not, death to Quarians, I find Geth more useful and I just think the quarians are a bunch of hot headed fools who pew pew themselves to death. Pretty much, I see it as them just committing suicide.

[quote]I doubt they could devote that much processing power to thinging in the long term, right?[/quote]

Well Geth do think faster than organics.

[quote]6. But that's not true. Legion had to physically return to geth space to present it's "proof" that the Reapers were returning....[/quote]

Doesn't prove Leigon had feelings or that he was separated from the Geth. He only refers to himself as an individual before death.

[quote]7. But it DOES matter. Because the Geth V.I. is a template of what all other geth besides Legion are like. [/quote]

You're debating with me about Legion's dialouge. You cannot take dialouge from a different Geth and argue Leigon's words. 


[quote]8. But geth do have emotions, don't they? I mean, as far as I can tell, Legion DOES have emotions, but they aren't realized till near the end. It simply doesn't understand them.[/quote]

There is no concrete evidence to say Leigon had feelings. It is just a matter of how each player is preceiving the scenes, dialouge etc.

For example: we all refer to Leigon as "he or him" but does Leigon? Heck what if Leigon is a "female"? It's all a matter of opinion cause the writers have chosen not to go further into it. I don't blame them, just look at this discussion. lol!

The only thing we have is that Leigon refers to himself as "I" before death. It still isn't enough to prove or disprove emotion.  I don't think he is incapable of emotion, but I don't think AIs have feelings the same way humans do as they don't think like we do. They process info differently so the way I see it there has to be some difference there.

Ex: Sociopaths are the way they are because they process information differently than a normal person.
Not calling the Geth Sociopaths, just stating how processing info a certain way can effect emotion as well.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 01 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

@remydat

You seem to be the most active Geth supporter. So here are some questions…


[*]The Quarians do not have a world thanks to the Geth.  It’s obvious that the Geth are not going to just hand it back to the Quarians. They have killed anyone who came close. Quarian or otherwise except Reapers. Which means they are racist towards organics? Also the council won’t allow Quarians to colonize a new world. So
what do you suggest they do now?

[*] There are evidence of previous wars like Rachin and Krogan wars. But there are no indications of Quarian aggression before the Geth creation. Which suggest Quarians were peaceful and not warmongers like
people try to believe.  If they are prove it.

[*]Geth are not to be responsible for what Heretics were doing right? Yet Heretics and Geth are same species and the only difference is the ideology. They allow the Heretics to run around and wreak havoc across
the Galaxy and only try to stop them when Heretics threaten their own existence. How are all Quarians held accountable for what the ancestors did and what few admirals are doing? Most civilians are on the fleet because they have no place else to be. So they do need a plant if they are to strike the Reapers.

[*]On the Geth server mission, Legion shows the commander old memories or whatever. Legion only seems to show signs of Quarian aggression. What do you make of that?

[*]How does anyone know that the Reaper code isn’t be dangerous? Heretics and Geth split because the Heretics wish to use Reaper tech to advance their evolution. And in the end Legion wants to upload the code to all Reapers. Double principle or what?

[*]It is said they the Geth accepted the reaper offer because their perspective is lowered by Quarian attack or something. And yet Legion who was a single Geth unit always seemed to have enough processing power to know joining the reapers was a bad idea. Also Legion says that killing the Heretics made it harder to accept the Reaper offer. Which mean they thought it through? To me it shows that Geth are willing to join the enemy to survive
even at the expense of their own free will and the rest of the galaxy. If not explain why.

[*]I cannot think of any good deed the Geth have done. Ever. So give some reason why the Geth are worth saving even over the Quarians.  Give a good reason why all those men women and children should be sacrificed to save that machine race.


[*]What ending do you prefer? To me and over 80% of the players, it's destroy for obvious reasons.

[*]They don't have a homeworld because of their own actions.  The first step to solving that problem would be to admit to the Geth via Legion that they were wrong.  During Tali's loyalty mission, Legion responds to Koris that the Geth would need more data before coming to peace terms and notes that the Quarins attack 100% when they think they can win.  Low and behold, they develop a weapon that disables the Geth and they attack.  So what should they do?  They should stop attacking the Geth as a means to solve problems of their own creation.  They should have used Shepard and Tali's relationship with Legion as a conduit for peace.   I know Tali and Legion talked but I never got the impression that it was sanctioned by the rest of the Quarians.  They should also gag people like Xen because you are not going to convince Legion peace is possible when idiots like her still openly talk to them like they are mere tools to be played with.

[*]All you have proven here is the prejudice of the Quarians.  They are peaceful when it comes to other organics but they immediately go into extermination mode when a synthetic gains sentience.  The proof is in what they tried to do to the Geth.  They did not talk to the Geth.  They did not try and ascertain what the Geth wanted.  They went straight for kill mode.

[*]The Geth let the Heretics leave.  The Heretics are no longer a part of the Geth or subject to the Consensus the Geth arrive it.  A Quarian who is in the Flotilla is still a part of the Quarians and still bound by the decisions their leaders make.  Koris, Ran and Tali all were reluctant to go to war.  So the only way Gherel and Xen could have went to way is if the rest of the conclave voted for it as 3 is greater than 2.  So you can't give your government the power to make decisions for you and then hide behind them when their decisions result in ruin.  Those 3 Admirals could have resisted instead of valuing consensus over principle.

[*]It was pre-MW which all evidence suggest consisted only of Quarian aggression.  Is there a Quarian who denies that pre-MW they attacked the Geth?  I never heard any Quarian claim the Geth attacked them first or before the start of the MW.

[*]You don't know for sure.  I do know Legion was right at every stage of the missions on Rannoch.  I know the Quarians thought they had won when the Dreadnought was disabled and Legion volunteered that no there is a Reaper on Rannoch.  If he did not tell them that the Quarians would have pressed the attack and been wiped out when that Reaper restored the Geth signal.  At every stage Legion diagnoses the situation and his understanding of the RC was right 100%.  So I choose to trust him.  And no it is not a double principle.  I didn't know what the big deal was about sex.  In fact, I was pretty against it.  Then guess what, I had sex and it was great.  Legion was against aid from the Reapers then was forced to use the Reaper Code and in doing saw the benefit of it.  It's called re-evaluatiing in light of NEW INFORMATION.  Organics do it all the time and in fact the ones that do are generally considered smart for being pragmatic instead of dogmatic.

[*]We are forged by our experiences.  Legion experienced organic life and was changed by that experience.  Dying tomorrow is better than dying today.  The Geth choose dying tomorrow over dying today.  Doing so allowed Shepard to eventually broker peace.  If they had chose dying today to save a galaxy that hated them and would not mourn their death at all then they would be pretty stupid.  Tali who is one of the most sympathetic to the Geth admits after peace is achieved that she would have killed all the Geth if it came down to it with no remorse.  So yeah I am not dying to save a galaxy that hates me.

[*]The Geth could have wiped the Quarians from existence and choose not to.  If the Quarians were in the same postion, I think the Geth would have been wiped from existence.  Legion saves Shepard during the IFF mission.  Shepard says this himself.  Legion helps defeat the collectors.  If not for Legion, the Quarians would have died when that Reaper who no one but Legion knew was chilling on Rannoch reestablished the Reaper signal.  That combined with the Quarians being the aggressors and launching a war amidst a potential galactic apocalypse and then refusing to stand down when told to means that unfortunately as it is prone to happen in war people pay the price for the leaders they put in power.

[*]
[*]I choose control or synthesis.  What do you do when another synthetic race is created ie the one the Reapers were created to prevent from appearing by harvesting advanced organic life before they can create them and then they access the extranet, see the long history of organics killing synthetics and then learn a fellow synthetic saved Shep in ME2 and then saved the creators who tried to destroy them in ME3 only for him and all synthetic life was wiped from the Galaxy for the sake of organics?  Look how much trouble the Geth cause and they are not even the real synthetic threat.  We haven't seen the real threat because the Reapers harvested advanced organic life before they could create it.

Modifié par remydat, 01 avril 2013 - 05:16 .

[tevix]

@Cheesecake

Oh, I didn't know that....kinda pis--- me off I didn't know sooner.

=P

@Silver

I never said they shouldn't try to get back to rannoch. I was just implying they should have attempted negotiation in ME3 first. If the geth refused, or never responded, I would endorse the attack.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Missing the point AGAIN. The entire point was to not provoke the geth, right. HOWEVER, didn't a certin rouge turian spectre already break that treaty? Haven't they ALREADY been provoked? To the Council's knowledge, the geth have already been provoked at Eden Prime by Saren, and were considered to be completely organic-hostile form that point on. And since, AGAIN, there is an active "kill on sight" order for all geth, that treaty is completely redundant. No one cares because it's already been violated by Saren, and the geth have been branded "at war" with the Alliance and Council for three years. So YES, that treaty IS completely null and void by that point.
And FYI: The quarians were kicked from the Citadel Conventions, meaning that Citadel law no longer applies to them. They are now in the same gray area as the geth, and no longer limited by the Treaty of Farixan, as they are no longer under the juristiction of Council rules, laws, and limitations.  Therefore, truning the liveships into glass dreadnoughts is NOT punsihable.
Shepard's mentioning of that is basically a random dick move.
Sorry. Try again.

2.You have called people childish FOR accusing peopel of taking this too seriously.
Also, an example of being insultingly snide:
Are you American?  If so and you are not
Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native
Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the
Geth so this should be easy for any American to do. 
Page 23. Posted agains @Makai81. Snide comment.

3. But to you acknowledge the rest of the cannon? Ascencion, Retribution, Invasion, Redemption, Homeworlds, and the rest?

1.  Could you please inform Admiral Koris and Xen ie the characters in the game because they said it not me.  They said they violated the treaty not me.  So please go take this up with them not me.

2.  Once again, provide a post where I called someone childish.  And I was drawing a parrellel about the victor (Americans/Geth) not just freely giving back the land they effecitvely won in conquest.  That is not a snide comment.  There is no name calling in that.

3.  If it is not contradicted by the game then I really don't care.  I play the games.  I don't go looking for every piece of MEU lore out there.