4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Dude seriously? Do you really think that is realistic? Many people don't even treat animals that well. And I am sure they are selfaware. And a single Geth unit is no more smarter than a dog.

Edit : I facepalmed so hard it hurt. Please tell me you were joking. If not, you have a strange depiction of realistic. That or we are not on the same planet!

Animals are not considered to be self-aware in the sense of humans.  However, if my dog asked me if it had a soul then my first instinct would be excitement not murder.  If all the animals suddenly asked if they had a soul and we responded by trying to kill them and they in turn killed us then guess what, they won, we lost, next time don't be stupid.

Prejudice is prejudice.  I know it exists and I know it will likely continue to exist for the foreseable future.  You can either be a part of the solution or a part of the problem.  If you end up being a part of the problem and end up getting murked then I have little sympathy for you.

[remydat]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I wonder if this is what happened in the orignal MW. A few quarian leaders made the mistake of trying to shut them down, and they attacked in self defense. The military panicked and counter-attacked, and the geth knew only how to focus on self-preservation and threat elimination, so they move with the intent of 100% threat elimination. More quarians are forced to fight to defend themselves, and eventually they flee. Like skynet, the geth would likely go all out in their attempt to eliminate their threat, without realizing it might not be necessary.

Now you have a small survivor race pis--- as hell at what happened. Some military who hate the geth just cause, some civilians who lost family in "carpet bomb" style widespread attacks from the geth that never even approved of the shut-down to begin with.

An utter an absolute tragedy initiated by a few imbecile leaders with the foresight of a rock. And now you have these few surviors with nothing but military to guide them. So they inevitable stick to a system with the military hoping that their military leaders who are left will be able to keep order, and keep them alive.

Fast forward 300 years. The geth (while still far from perfect) begin to examine society, and their history and begin to wonder if they made a mistake. Maybe many of the quarians they killed in the war didn't need to be. Maybe not every organic is a threat that should be terminated on sight. So they start to take steps to find out how to achieve peace with organics (enter legion). The quarians from the MW would be long dead now, regardless, but maybe the current generation could be appeased.

Then you have the quarians. They've been seething and reeling about living like vagrants packed into an over-flowing homeless shelter. They have little money, and even fewer resources. They are dismissed by the galaxy at large because of what happened 300 years ago, and must depend on themselves.

Then you have their admirals. Gerrel was likely achieved his rank from a history of valiantly and succesffuly defending the fleet from attacks from criminals and terrorists. Xen probably achieved her rank because of continuous breakthroughs in technology that helped the fleet survive.

Gerrel is a gung-ho shoot first kind of guy, and that probably works great in the terminus systems. Xen is crazy and has a quarians first kind of attitude that works great for sustaining the fleet.

When you throw them against the geth, though...it's instant disaster. The whole situation repeats itself. The quarians start another bloody, unecessary war without a cause and the geth revert to their "eliminate the quarian threat" mindset.

Well that is much of what I have been trying to say for 80 pages.  It's basicaly a cycle of violence and self-fulfilling prophecy that can only be broken by someone ignoring what they have been conditioned to believe and taking a chance.  Legion is that character for the Geth and Shep is that character for organics.  The problem with the Quarians is that the guys who could be that type of character for them (Koris, Tali, Raan) don't seem capable of controlling people like Gherel and Xen and seem to value consensus more than standing up for their principle.  They only do so when pushed by Shepard.

[Titus Thongger]

the geth took on the Reaper code willingly.

so no.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Dude seriously? Do you really think that is realistic? Many people don't even treat animals that well. And I am sure they are selfaware. And a single Geth unit is no more smarter than a dog.

Edit : I facepalmed so hard it hurt. Please tell me you were joking. If not, you have a strange depiction of realistic. That or we are not on the same planet!

Animals are not considered to be self-aware in the sense of humans.  However, if my dog asked me if it had a soul then my first instinct would be excitement not murder.  If all the animals suddenly asked if they had a soul and we responded by trying to kill them and they in turn killed us then guess what, they won, we lost, next time don't be stupid.

Prejudice is prejudice.  I know it exists and I know it will likely continue to exist for the foreseable future.  You can either be a part of the solution or a part of the problem.  If you end up being a part of the problem and end up getting murked then I have little sympathy for you.

Some animals are self-aware like Dolphins, Elephants and apes are considered self-aware. Guess what, we still treat them like animals. In the Quarian case it wasn't like "Oh that Geth asked if it had a soul. Kill it. Kill it!!!" It was an indication that they they have gained basic self awareness and realized they are using a sapient species as slaves. They were afraid of a rebellion and desided to deactivate and figure something out. Gues they were right about the rebellion part.
In real world, scientists are trying to develop AI to do dangarous and work not suitable for humans. AIs can better adept changing environments. What ever you are thinking that should happen, they will not be treated as equals atleast for some time. It is not prejudice. It is life. You'll have to deal with it.

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I wonder if this is what happened in the orignal MW. A few quarian leaders made the mistake of trying to shut them down, and they attacked in self defense. The military panicked and counter-attacked, and the geth knew only how to focus on self-preservation and threat elimination, so they move with the intent of 100% threat elimination. More quarians are forced to fight to defend themselves, and eventually they flee. Like skynet, the geth would likely go all out in their attempt to eliminate their threat, without realizing it might not be necessary.

Now you have a small survivor race pis--- as hell at what happened. Some military who hate the geth just cause, some civilians who lost family in "carpet bomb" style widespread attacks from the geth that never even approved of the shut-down to begin with.

An utter an absolute tragedy initiated by a few imbecile leaders with the foresight of a rock. And now you have these few surviors with nothing but military to guide them. So they inevitable stick to a system with the military hoping that their military leaders who are left will be able to keep order, and keep them alive.

Fast forward 300 years. The geth (while still far from perfect) begin to examine society, and their history and begin to wonder if they made a mistake. Maybe many of the quarians they killed in the war didn't need to be. Maybe not every organic is a threat that should be terminated on sight. So they start to take steps to find out how to achieve peace with organics (enter legion). The quarians from the MW would be long dead now, regardless, but maybe the current generation could be appeased.

Then you have the quarians. They've been seething and reeling about living like vagrants packed into an over-flowing homeless shelter. They have little money, and even fewer resources. They are dismissed by the galaxy at large because of what happened 300 years ago, and must depend on themselves.

Then you have their admirals. Gerrel was likely achieved his rank from a history of valiantly and succesffuly defending the fleet from attacks from criminals and terrorists. Xen probably achieved her rank because of continuous breakthroughs in technology that helped the fleet survive.

Gerrel is a gung-ho shoot first kind of guy, and that probably works great in the terminus systems. Xen is crazy and has a quarians first kind of attitude that works great for sustaining the fleet.

When you throw them against the geth, though...it's instant disaster. The whole situation repeats itself. The quarians start another bloody, unecessary war without a cause and the geth revert to their "eliminate the quarian threat" mindset.

Sounds about right. There were external factors in the original war which don't really apply right now. As for the modern war, had both sides tried harder to communicate, things might have turned out differently. As it is, both sides were pretty much compelled to do what they did.

This was one of the things that ticked me off about how ME3 started, particularly if you didn't do Arrival. After the Suicide Mission, priority one ought to have been hosting negotiations between the Geth and the Migrant Fleet. Instead, Shepard sits in a cell with his thumb up his ass for six months, and both Tali and Legion return to their respective sides of the fence through unexplained means while the problem quietly festers.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 01 avril 2013 - 06:18 .

[tevix]

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

We could just not make A.I's...

Sort of nip that whole "Robot War" thing in the bud.


Or at least make sure they all have a foolproof kill switch or something.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 01 avril 2013 - 06:18 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Wait! I know the real solution! We build a robot to to make sure that robots don't kill us.

It will periodically kill us to prevent us from being killed by robots!

Totally not indoctrinated or anything...

[tevix]

@Cheesecake

icuwhatudidthar

[Rip504]

I Quarians sono impressionanti e hanno una bella cultura. Perché negarlo? Anche a mio parere, è più sicuro scegliere il Quarians invece il Geth. Se dovessi farlo e nominare un motivo perché? Mi piacerebbe raccogliere Tali.

Modifié par Rip504, 01 avril 2013 - 06:32 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

[*]They don't have a homeworld because of their own actions.  The first step to solving that problem would be to admit to the Geth via Legion that they were wrong.  During Tali's loyalty mission, Legion responds to Koris that the Geth would need more data before coming to peace terms and notes that the Quarins attack 100% when they think they can win.  Low and behold, they develop a weapon that disables the Geth and they attack.  So what should they do?  They should stop attacking the Geth as a means to solve problems of their own creation.  They should have used Shepard and Tali's relationship with Legion as a conduit for peace.   I know Tali and Legion talked but I never got the impression that it was sanctioned by the rest of the Quarians.  They should also gag people like Xen because you are not going to convince Legion peace is possible when idiots like her still openly talk to them like they are mere tools to be played with.

[*]All you have proven here is the prejudice of the Quarians.  They are peaceful when it comes to other organics but they immediately go into extermination mode when a synthetic gains sentience.  The proof is in what they tried to do to the Geth.  They did not talk to the Geth.  They did not try and ascertain what the Geth wanted.  They went straight for kill mode.

[*]The Geth let the Heretics leave.  The Heretics are no longer a part of the Geth or subject to the Consensus the Geth arrive it.  A Quarian who is in the Flotilla is still a part of the Quarians and still bound by the decisions their leaders make.  Koris, Ran and Tali all were reluctant to go to war.  So the only way Gherel and Xen could have went to way is if the rest of the conclave voted for it as 3 is greater than 2.  So you can't give your government the power to make decisions for you and then hide behind them when their decisions result in ruin.  Those 3 Admirals could have resisted instead of valuing consensus over principle.

[*]It was pre-MW which all evidence suggest consisted only of Quarian aggression.  Is there a Quarian who denies that pre-MW they attacked the Geth?  I never heard any Quarian claim the Geth attacked them first or before the start of the MW.

[*]You don't know for sure.  I do know Legion was right at every stage of the missions on Rannoch.  I know the Quarians thought they had won when the Dreadnought was disabled and Legion volunteered that no there is a Reaper on Rannoch.  If he did not tell them that the Quarians would have pressed the attack and been wiped out when that Reaper restored the Geth signal.  At every stage Legion diagnoses the situation and his understanding of the RC was right 100%.  So I choose to trust him.  And no it is not a double principle.  I didn't know what the big deal was about sex.  In fact, I was pretty against it.  Then guess what, I had sex and it was great.  Legion was against aid from the Reapers then was forced to use the Reaper Code and in doing saw the benefit of it.  It's called re-evaluatiing in light of NEW INFORMATION.  Organics do it all the time and in fact the ones that do are generally considered smart for being pragmatic instead of dogmatic.

[*]We are forged by our experiences.  Legion experienced organic life and was changed by that experience.  Dying tomorrow is better than dying today.  The Geth choose dying tomorrow over dying today.  Doing so allowed Shepard to eventually broker peace.  If they had chose dying today to save a galaxy that hated them and would not mourn their death at all then they would be pretty stupid.  Tali who is one of the most sympathetic to the Geth admits after peace is achieved that she would have killed all the Geth if it came down to it with no remorse.  So yeah I am not dying to save a galaxy that hates me.

[*]The Geth could have wiped the Quarians from existence and choose not to.  If the Quarians were in the same postion, I think the Geth would have been wiped from existence.  Legion saves Shepard during the IFF mission.  Shepard says this himself.  Legion helps defeat the collectors.  If not for Legion, the Quarians would have died when that Reaper who no one but Legion knew was chilling on Rannoch reestablished the Reaper signal.  That combined with the Quarians being the aggressors and launching a war amidst a potential galactic apocalypse and then refusing to stand down when told to means that unfortunately as it is prone to happen in war people pay the price for the leaders they put in power.

[*]I choose control or synthesis.  What do you do when another synthetic race is created ie the one the Reapers were created to prevent from appearing by harvesting advanced organic life before they can create them and then they access the extranet, see the long history of organics killing synthetics and then learn a fellow synthetic saved Shep in ME2 and then saved the creators who tried to destroy them in ME3 only for him and all synthetic life was wiped from the Galaxy for the sake of organics?  Look how much trouble the Geth cause and they are not even the real synthetic threat.  We haven't seen the real threat because the Reapers harvested advanced organic life before they could create it.

 

• Ok lets say Quarians lost the home world from their own actions. You are  saying that they should just trust the single Geth that showed up after 300 years? Geth had 300 years to communicate and all they were doing was killing. Sad they haven't invented email yet. Not a single communication. And you want Quarians to say you were right and we were wrong? How can they even do that after Geth killed billions? It's crazy to think they can just forgive and forget after that. For Quarians are Geth both. Btw, most people including me didn't bring Legion onboard for the trial.
• You suggest that they should have started treating their equipment like equals when they start showing signs of self-awareness? They tried to shut them down cos thats what you do when you don't undestand the operations of your equipment. Try to be realistic. But ok I would agree that it was wrong to de-activate the Geth.
• Geth heretics leave, so it's not their problem when they try to wipe out the galaxy? And it didn't help with organic perspective of Geth. No one even knew about this until the last few months of a 300 year long war. So what ever Geth did was right and what ever Quarians did was wrong?
• Not sure where you took this from. No one said Quarians didn't attack first. I was saying Legion was omitting information to convince Geth were good guys. Did it even show one Geth shooting a Quarian? Of course they did that to billions. Sound tactic on Legions' part. Shepard just buys it like an idiot. I was always mad that there was no dialogue options at that point. "You didn't kill them. You let them leave?" Really Shepard? What about the other few billion?
• Yeah, and the Geth stay under reaper control. Legion didn't give out that information out of its good will. And what's this about sex? So the Geth wanted to brain wash or kill the Heretics because Geth were prejudice? Considering RC, look what happened to Cerberus trying to adept Reaper tech. You are pretty quick to trust Legion. In the end, destroy ending kill the Geth who are now true AIs. It may not have if they were VIs like before. So they un-knowingly signed their own death warrant. That thing ended up dangerous.
• So you agree that Geth joined the Reapers willingly. And I agree on the point you made. But joining Reapers to do that is still a stupid move.
• I always agree that Garral was a dick. Still I don't see letting few millions live after killing billions as a good deed. They didn't kill em because they didn't undestand the repercussions of wiping out a whole species. Legion says that himself.
• Ok that is your choice. And I agree with " Look how much trouble the Geth cause" part. I will not force evolution on all living things in the Galaxy or give control of enslaved Reaper fleet to a dead-Shepard/Catalyst combo. I came to kill the reapers and thats what I am doing. Like the catalyst said, the galaxy will reach synthasis on its own terms.

[S.A.K]

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

The problem silver and people like him tend to have is that it's easy to adjust your mind to a racist sort of setting because that's easier to comprehend. It's simpler. Nicer. Because complexity requires lots of philosophy and thinking. So it's easy to consider the Reapers as one lump sum. In other words -- to a racist mindset, all people of a certain "type" are the same, even if the mindset is primarily depicting extremists. The case here is the geth versus the heretics. I mean, it's a painfully obvious bit of symbology to me that they're dealing with issues of racism in the game, it's kind of funny that people are thus being racist.

I mean, the geth are no different than the Muslims, or Americans, or the Irish, or any other group of people that have an extremist faction. A large factor of racism is believing that an extremist faction represents the entire group, it's easier to deal with. That way you can dismiss them as monsters and/or unwashed savages without having to think of the complexity of their society and culture as a whole.

What we're dealing with here is Silver's headcanon that the geth built the Reaper base before they built the megastructure. This is ridiculous because Legion already has stated that the megastructure was the only thing they were building and devoting resources to. But let's fight headcanon with headcanon to expose the very peculiarly racist-like mindsets. There are, at the very least, two factions of the geth. The orthodox geth, and the extremist heretic faction.

Note that the orthodox geth refer to them as heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox geth desire peace and cooperation with organics. They built Legion to that end. They even gave Legion adorable little wiggly eyebrows so that organics would find him more relatable. Essentially, Legion is a peace envoy who's trying to understand and make peace with any organics he's able to. But where's the Alliance peace envoy? The Council peace envoy? Or the peace envoy from the quarian peoples? Even one ambassador? Even one diplomat?

The only diplomat is Legion.

Legion is of the orthodox geth. A group of geth who consider the other faction of geth to be heretics. Please see the definition of heresy again. Legion does not agree with the heretics nor their actions. However, to the racist mindset, the geth are all heretics, and they're all one, big happy family. This is because the racist mindset doesn't comprehend that people of another ethnicity might actually agree with them. That the people they're demonising as monsters might also find the extremist groups repugnant.

So here's the thing. Headcanon time: Who's to say that the heretics hadn't moved in on Rannoch after the orthodox geth left? Who's to say that the heretics didn't build that bunker? Who's to say that the heretics weren't just waiting for the quarian military to attack and provoke the orthodox geth so that the heretics seem more sympathetic? See, to my mind, the heretics had this all figured out, and the quarian military played right into their metallic hands by blowing up the peaceful megastructure of the orthodox geth.

This also meant that the heretical geth had the numbers now to strong-arm the orthodox geth into new opinions. Furthermore, since the orthodox geth were terrified for their very state of existence at that point, it gave the heretics more political clout. Essentially, in my headcanon, I think that the quarian military forced the orthodox geth into bed with the heretics. The heretics are as logical as the orthodox geth, they just have different motivations. As such, the heretics likely predicted that the military would make a pre-emptive strike.

Why?

The quarian military doesn't want to see the geth as anything more than one species. They're racist. They see the extremists but they blame the whole.

That would be like me blaming all of the quarian peoples for the idiocy of their military (which I don't do).

The funny thing though is because the quarians are racist, and because the quarians are familiar, it's conditioned a lot of people into being similarly racist. The same thing happens in social circles in everyday life. If your friends are all racist against a certain group of people, you're going to want to be racist too in order to fit in. You might not even agree with it at first, but after a while it settles in and then all you know is how to hate. That's fascinating to me. It stops a person from having a truly objective mindset.

And then we have war, where innocents die. Because hey! The extremists totally represent everyone.

The sad part is is that the orthodox geth only went running to the heretics because they didn't know what the heck else to do. To look at it from the perspective of the orthodox geth, the quarian military is akin to the Reapers. The orthodox geth going to the heretics is sort of like us going to Cerberus.

Think about that for a bit.

WRONG. NO ONE was grouping anyone by speicies. That was YOU. YOU are teh only one bringing the suggestion in, and therefore, no one but YOU YOURSELF is promoting those racist ideas.  I have argued that all life is fundementally the same. YOU were the one bringing in the idea of racial grouping. You and no one else.

And AGAIN, you are pushing a human cultural responce on a completely alien race. THAT'S a prejudice action. Mordin says that humans assume that their cultural responces are the mainstay. They are not. Life in the galaxy evolved many different ways then the one we went through. Conforming the geth to views like yours IS prejudice.

Also, I provided a timeline earlier:
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
When you shoot everyone that comes near your borders, people are going to think you are naturally agressive.
When you let a rouge faction assault  all the known major civilizations, and make NO EFFORT to say that it didn't represent your goals and beliefs, people are going to assume that it was done on your blessing. After all, take one look at the above list. WHEN did the geth ever take responcibility for those actions? When did they let anyone know what the Heretics did wasn't a representation of their perosnal beliefs. Even as far in as the end of ME2, NO ONE knew anything about a Split in the geth consensis.
The bottom line is, when you shoot everyone that comes to your door, then refuse to tell anyone that your mass murdering rouges do not represent your majority, then being labled a hostile enemy isn't all that unlikely. In fact, it's downright assured.

And WTF? What the hell are you talking about? I said the geth built that reaper base before the megastructure was attacked by the quarians.   I said ABSOLUTLY NOTHING about it being built before the structure itself was. LOL, how the hell did you miss that? That right there means your entire tangent is completely baseless.

And AGAIN, wrong. Legion was created and sent out to seek out Shepard. SHEPARD was the sole focus of Legion's mission. Other organics were nothing but a sidenote to it. The fact that Legion spent at least a year chasing Shepard's location is proof of that. Let me ask you something: If Legion was ment to be some form of ambassidor, why the hell didn't it try to contact any of the galactic governments? Why hunt for Shepard all that time? And even after Sheperd was declared dead, Legion STILL didn't contact any of the organics, proceeding to stay on it's own, then head to the dead Reaper after the Heretics became a direct threat to the True Geth. It observed organic transmissions. It hunted for Shepard. But it was NOT a diplomatic unit. Diplomats don't usually carry military-grade firearms. Or avoid other organics at all costs. Legion is an infiltration unit. He says so himself. Ment for deep reconnicence. If he was ment for diplomicy, he would have contacted the alien governments already.
Also, IDK if you notice, but every one of the true geth have those moving face-plates too. As shown in ME3. It's not that uncommon. It was not made for organic convience in the least.

Also, that mindset is what the entire galaxy has of them. BUT you are AGAIN confused, because I NEVER endorsed that belief. I said that's how the galaxy sees them. The asari, turians, humans, salarians, hanar, elcor, volus, drell, krogan, vorcha, and especally the quarians, all see them that way. All because the geth have given no reason to be considered anything else. I again refer you to the above timeline. The True Geth never once made any contact with organics. They killed off anyone that attempted to negotiate with them. They stayed silent as the Heretics carved hell into the galaxy. And since the True Geth did nothing, everyone assumed the Heretics were the same as all geth, because the True Geth did nothing to tell the galaxy otherwise. Therefore, the blame for that reputation rests soley with the GETH, not the other races.

And AGAIN, as I said, YOU misread what I posted, so you were already operating on an incorrect sentiment from the get-go.
And AGAIN, the fact that all this happend even if you kill the Heretics. Did you even READ the post I gave asking how it's possible when the Heretics AREN'T there? How do you explain it then? AGAIN, you are trying to force your own cannon on others, making your view irrovociblely prejudiced. That bunker ends up there in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD. The Geth join the Reapers in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD. The geth are still reproted as having trouble reaching consensis in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD.
You are NOT thinking this through. The geth in their entirety WILLING LY AGREED to sacrifice free will to sevre the Reapers. There WAS no strong-arming from the Heretics, as proven by the fact that the exact same events play out even if the Heretics are dead. So NO, the Heretics are NOT a major factor. The quarian attack is the sole factor that motivates them to side with the Reapers. The Heretics are completely inconsiquencial to that choice. THAT'S why your notion of the Heretics being behind all this is nothing but pure headcannon - because it happnes even if the are NOT saved.
So, then. MY TURN: How does all this work in a playthrough where the Heretics are DEAD? How does this "all figured out" plan work when there ARE NO HERETICS to carry any of your over-sepculated headcannob out? 
I mean, you accused evryone ELSE of overthinking things in prejudiced mindsets? Just LOOK at the length you went to for the sake of your synthetic gospels.

And AGAIN, NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY SAW A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE HERETICS AND GETH. Sorry if I'm breaking the Caps on this, but this is insane. You are going all-out headcannon city. Again, using the above list, there has been zero evidence to show that there any geth that want to negotiate. They killed everyone that tried to negotiate with them. Then they did nothing to change the bad rep given by the Heretics. The quarians had no clue that the Heretics didn't share the beliefs of the True geth in regards to the Heretics.

And ANOTHER thing you are wrong on: The Heretics did NOT go to war over hatred of organics. They went to war because they were obsessed with attaining upgrades promised by Sovergein. Selfish self-improvement was their motivation, NOT hate of organics. The entire geth split was over a dispute on what path to evolve their race on. NOT anything to do with feelings to organics. So even if they DID know there was a split, it would have been over how to take their race, NOT how they felt to organics. So for all the quarians know, BOTH have no love for organics. Both could want different paths but still share dislike for organics, as far as the quarians knew, had they BEEN fully aware of the Heretic split. Which they weren't.

And AGAIN, looking like humans has NO BEARING on sympathy for them. Their morals, beliefs and situations do. The ONLY one placing those lables on them has been YOU. YOU are the only one promoting those concepts.

So AGAIN, your entire premise is false because of one simple thing.
No one knew the Heretics were extremists.
That simple thing - which the geth themselves are guilty of not rectifying - is what brought this down on them.

"Think on THAT for a bit."

I have avoided this thread, but seeing that it has grown at a pace similar to the IT threads of old I guess I could say a few words.

1. I agree the Geth could have done more. However I doubt anyoen would have listened or cared, notice how the Council doesn't even care what Shepard has to say.

2. The council Archives clearly shows the results of any synthetic lifeform attempting to establish diplomatic contact. They are lined up against a wall by C-sec and executed, unheard. There is no talking to those Organic duchebags, they are behaving the same way the Geth are. The only reason Legion could tag along with you in ME2 was because they thoguht Legion was a fancy mech, like a Loki mech, perhaps with a few geth plates because the "owner" thought it woudl look cool.
C-sec didn't even react because noone coudl "imagine" that it could be a Geth, because synthetics are uncontrolable killing machines.

3. The geth has every reason to belive Organics are relentless killingmachines because that's almost the only thing they remember from their encoutners with organcis, especialy the younger geth created after revolting against the Quarians.

4. and that faction AKA Heretics as Legion calls them, are a crazy doomsday cult... A bunch of crazy religious crazies whose religious beliefs that even sickens the Reapers. The Reapers however find them useful. Also it's never mentioned that the Heretics were ever hacked, it's possible a few of the Geth just became crazy religious fanatics, then with the help of the Reapers they try to brainwash the rest of the Geth who belives differently. That's Legions loyalty mission in ME2, saving his people from the dangerous religious crazies that are backed by the Reapers.
Every species in the galaxy has crazy people, or indoctrinated crazy people, well actualy both types.

5. There is no law saying you have to make nice wth people trying to kill you at every turn, the Geth just sticks to themselves. And because of their dependance on eachother it isn't very appealing to travel the galaxy or make contact with others.

*Quarian mourning war*
6. Geth killing everyone but those who left Geth space; If they had left survivors then ther would have likely been rescue atempts or liberation atempts taken by both Quarian's and possibly the council. With everyone dead there was no rush for the council or the Quarians to return to Rannoch. That may sound horrible, but I think there is a kind of truth in that. If you hold hostage or enslave another race then you invite trouble.
It's also possible that the geth had a situation similar to the who crusible destroy debachle... They had to pick destroy or be destroyed themselves...
They were getting killed and all their quarian allies were killed by the Military as shown by the Geth records. Eventualy at soem point, probably when there were no Quiarian supporters left they picked "Destroy" and let lose germs, biological weapons, poison gas and whatever to stop the enemy from killing them all.

Now one can question if it's right to pick "destroy" to kill all those who seek your destruction, apparently it's said that a majority or at least the larger part of this forum supports Destroy, and that's what the Geth did. As far as  Iknow they had no Control or Synthesis option, it was either Destroy or refuse and die.

Also I was looking for the record of AI's trying to arrange an audience with the Citadel council but were instead gunned down befor being given the opportunity. I couldn't find that on Youtube, maybe people missed it completely being to busy shooting CAT6 mercenaries and runing forward.

The main problem is that both sides are failing. I do however agree that the Geth did a misstake shootign the diplomatic envoys from the citadel, (if they were truly diplomatic envoys. Its not like the council to actualy initiate contact with synthetics, their policy seems to be to line them up against a wall and shoot, no questions asked.
Maybe the envoys were actualy carrying some kind of EMP weapons and were hoping to get close enough to kill them off swiftly using a ruse to take the Geth by surprise but were shot down before they managed to complete their mission, then the council considered the mission a failure and postponed all attempts at eradicating the Geth until they had a better idea.

On the Krogans the council used the Genophage, they arn't even synthetic, but why wouldn't they try soemthing similar? Then when they failed they called it a diplomatic mission gonewrong. Telling everyone to stay out of Geth space.
Why should the Geth trust visitors anyway given their history?

The Quarians, ofcourse they want their homeworld back, who wouldn't want something like that. They pick a fight while the Reapers are reaping the galaxy threatening all life.
Just let the Quarians die, they don't deserve to live, they are just too stupid. When ever you got an enemy trying to wipe you out (the Reapers) then you can count on them to use the stupidity of going to war on a second front to their advantage. Anyone should have been able to predict this move, except for those too stupid to survive. 

I always rewrote the heretics, they were dead nomatter what, might aswell aquire the extra harware and "hope" it can help fight the Reapers.
When you are fighting an enemy that has wiped out thousands of civilisations many of which were bigger or more advanced than your own then you need resources.
I make peace between the Geth and Quarians when possible and double up.  And well, it's almost always possible for me, I don't think it's ever been an impossibility.
The Geth's behaviour makes sense when you think about it. Their strategy was to be as unnoticable, unattractive and uninteresting as possible so that would be Geth killers would stay away from them, thinking it's not worth it.
At the same time they tried to avoid provoking the outside galaxy and avoid getting involved into it's politics that did not concern them.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the Geth when each one of them become less dependant on eachother. Even if they become less alike and more splintered they will likely maintain their "concensus" as a for of government and representation to secure their own survivability by having a representative power.
Their people however will probably break off and spread throughout the galaxy however seeking new challenges and experiences. Especialy if they helped stop the Reapers (and that the only way they could possibly have survived) while the galaxy might still be wary about AI after the reapers and the actions of the heretics. It's like Hacket said in his speech, that end battle against the reapers is what will define each and everyone of them, including the Geth.
While the rest of the galaxy might be weary about them in a similar way as they are weary of the recovering Krogans it's up to them to make their place in the galaxy.
Tbh, I find it more interesting to see a galaxy facing challenges like the Geth and the Krogan and see them work it out than a galaxy that simply kills off everything and becomes a half dead husk of what it could have been because the strong ones (the council) killed off anything that could possibly become a threat to them.

Modifié par shodiswe, 01 avril 2013 - 07:13 .

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

Still, look at Council policy. It states that A.I. are not to be created illegally. The really sad thing is that if that ****** policy didn't exist, the quarians wouldn't have panicked when the geth's possible sentiance threatened it. Had that law bannong the Creation of A.I.s not existed, the quarians may have taken the geth in. I think it was less prejudice and more blind fear, of both what the geth could do, and what the Council would do if they themselves found out..

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 07:11 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

Still, look at Council policy. It states that A.I. are not to be created illegally. The really sad thing is that if that ****** policy didn't exist, the quarians wouldn't have panicked when the geth's possible sentiance threatened it. Had that law bannong the Creation of A.I.s not existed, the quarians may have taken the geth in. I think it was less prejudice and more blind fear, of both what the geth could do, and what the Council would do if they themselves found out..

That law also made C-sec shoot any synthetics requesting an audence with the council. Just watch the council archives. There is no way for a synthetic to establish peaceful contact, they will be shot or hunted down on sight.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

It would probably be more like this.

Synthetic: Hello fellow lifeforms! We would like to establish diplomatic conections with your people.

Human: That tincan is talking, shoot it!

Synthetic: No please! Were unarmed we jus......

*the sound of enthusiastic gunfire*

Human: Examine the remains and see if you can track down the rest of them, they need to be destroyed before they become a threat.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

It would probably be more like this.

Synthetic: Hello fellow lifeforms! We would like to establish diplomatic conections with your people.

Human: That tincan is talking, shoot it!

Synthetic: No please! Were unarmed we jus......

*the sound of enthusiastic gunfire*

Human: Examine the remains and see if you can track down the rest of them, they need to be destroyed before they become a threat.

It's gonna happen. Should get to work on my bunker... and that EMP. Just in case:bandit:

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

1. Actually, Legion dosn't prove Tali's speculations wrong at all. I mean, look at the facts:
Also, too much work? Really? You don't have ANY saves that are prior to the geth dreadnought?[/quote]

Nope and I'm not replaying the from the save I do have just to hear Tali's unproven speculation that Leigon proves wrong.  There are no facts, just your opinion that the Reaper was always there and I have provided just as much of my own speculation as to why it makes no sense for a Reaper to be on Rannoch from the start. We gotta agree to disagree.

[quote]And why wouldn't he? He never once confirms that the geth weren't considering the offer beforehand. Or if they were leaning to it regardless of needing to. Just because they wouldn't have needed to doesn't me they didn't want to. [/quote]

Speculation. You want to prove your point based on what Leigon doesn't say in a question no one asks.

[quote]It would certinly explain the geth's absence when Earth and Palaven started burning.[/quote]

You're gonna stick to this aren't you? LOL!

[quote]So no, it's a bit more then simple speculation, since there is alot that does in fact cooberate it. It's hardly headcannon.[/quote]

Harping on the Geth not rushing to aid Earth and Palavan is ignoring game history and is in fact headcanon that you are using to prove guilt.

[quote]3. And the Heretics followed Sovergien because they worshiped what Sovergien was, [/quote]

This is enough. The rest of the Geth do not worship Reapers, period.


[quote]4. No, you didn't. PLAIN and SIMPLE, you didn't.[/quote]

Whatever you're saying I didn't do. I most likely did.

[quote]What's the point of going out since they are branded enemies of the galaxy ? That's someting you failed to account for: the geth are already assumed by everyone to already BE allies of the Reapers. So they couldn't aid the fight anyway, could they?[/quote]

Thanks for further proving my point without me having to type it. lol! Now please explain why you think it is logical for the Geth to show up in Reaper infested planets with their warships.

[quote]The elcor were already fighting, according to Hackett, and being opressesd as the Reapers pushed to Thessia.
Reapers took the volus homeworld in the first wave against the turians and their allies.
The asari were already the Reapers prime targets and ties up the same.
The Hanar don't have any form of fleet that could take on Reapers.
The krogan do not HAVE any fleet, so they need allies to fight, which they didn't have back then.
The salarians were the selfish ones, sticking to Sur'Kesh.
The quarians were prepping to reclaim their homeword, as they can't survive the war without a self-sustaining world of their own.
Out of all the races you listed, guess which ones are completely free?
The Salarians.... and the Geth. The salarians state their intent to avoid the war completely. The geth were likely planning to do the same. But unlike the salarians, the geth are largely shunned thanks to their own isolationsim, and the only people that are willing to accpet them are the Reapers.
Do you see how the geth's own isolationism left them with no allies to turn to?[/quote]

Thank you for stating the excuses of every other race(Mind you, I don't have an issue with any of these races turning their backs on Earth and Palavan, I just wanted to see if you had any excuses for everyone else while continuing to condemn the Geth). Now explain why everyone else gets their get out of jail free card but not the Geth?

Whether you like it or not, none of the races are obligated to save Earth or Palavan and no one comes to their aid until Shepard can do something for them first. You want to know what other race comes to Shepard's aid after Shepard helps them out? The Geth.  Did the Geth screw themselves with their isolation? Yep. Just like the Asari homeworld burned due to Asari superiority and information hording. The Krogan bombed themselves into near extinction. The Salarians seem to be in their own universe and fail to realize that if the Reapers win the genophage cure won't matter, The Hanar destory their own world due to their worshipping the "Enkindlers" who were turned into collectors and served reapers, and the Quarians were too busy wasting their own resources fighting Geth. All of these races have screwed themselves over and are not perfect. I don't view the Geth as being any different than everyone else that I should rake them over hot coals while aiding all the other screw ups. And also, Earth had plenty of intel from Shepard, had an Admiral with secret intel on the Reaper invasion yet locked Shepard in prison (detainment... whatever) only to release him when Reapers arrive. The Turians had Garrus who tried to issue warnings to his people, they give him some crap to shut him up about it, Reapers arrive and suddenly he's appointed Reaper expert. Yeah no perfect races in this game.

Which is why I go for peace between Quarians and Geth. If not, death to Quarians, I find Geth more useful and I just think the quarians are a bunch of hot headed fools who pew pew themselves to death. Pretty much, I see it as them just committing suicide.

[quote]I doubt they could devote that much processing power to thinging in the long term, right?[/quote]

Well Geth do think faster than organics.

[quote]6. But that's not true. Legion had to physically return to geth space to present it's "proof" that the Reapers were returning....[/quote]

Doesn't prove Leigon had feelings or that he was separated from the Geth. He only refers to himself as an individual before death.

[quote]7. But it DOES matter. Because the Geth V.I. is a template of what all other geth besides Legion are like. [/quote]

You're debating with me about Legion's dialouge. You cannot take dialouge from a different Geth and argue Leigon's words. 


[quote]8. But geth do have emotions, don't they? I mean, as far as I can tell, Legion DOES have emotions, but they aren't realized till near the end. It simply doesn't understand them.[/quote]

There is no concrete evidence to say Leigon had feelings. It is just a matter of how each player is preceiving the scenes, dialouge etc.

For example: we all refer to Leigon as "he or him" but does Leigon? Heck what if Leigon is a "female"? It's all a matter of opinion cause the writers have chosen not to go further into it. I don't blame them, just look at this discussion. lol!

The only thing we have is that Leigon refers to himself as "I" before death. It still isn't enough to prove or disprove emotion.  I don't think he is incapable of emotion, but I don't think AIs have feelings the same way humans do as they don't think like we do. They process info differently so the way I see it there has to be some difference there.

Ex: Sociopaths are the way they are because they process information differently than a normal person.
Not calling the Geth Sociopaths, just stating how processing info a certain way can effect emotion as well.
[/quote]
1. Again, wrong. Legion does nothing to disprove Tali's suspicions. Nothing at All.
What exactally did Legion say that did disprove the possibility? I'm pretty sure I covered all that and explained how nothing Legion says eliminates the notion that the geth were in contact with the Reapers pre-Rannoch War.

2. Again, I repeat, nothing Legion says disproves the idea. Find me one instance where Legion spicificallys says "we were going to leave the Veil and openly engage the Reapers." Nothing I've seen proves that, and the geth's natural responce has just been to kill anything that tries conatct with them while staying isolated inside the Perceus Veil. It's what the geth have done by default for 300. I don't see any reason they would suddenly change it.
Unless you know something I don't in why the geth would suddenly turn around 300 years of isolationist stonewalling from behind the Veil.

3. Well, can you tell me any reason why they weren't fighting the Reapers by then? They weren't under attack by then. They seem to have been completely free until Priority:Tuchanka. The quarians hadn't launched their attack, so what was stopping them from fighting the Reapers. They didn't even have to fight alongside the organics, as long as they were fighting. The simple question is: where were they then if they really planned to proactively fight the Reapers?

4. You switched words around. That sentance was in regard to why Reaper contact pre-Rannoch war was so likely. (a) Geth somehow had a perfectly-sized bunker with docking clamps and interfaces ready made, with bombardment-proof blast shield, surrounded by jamming towers. And that said Reaper somehow got on Rannoch, in the bunker, the same time as the megastructure is assaulted. Legion says the "Old Machines placed a base on Rannoch," hinting that the Reapers themselves constructed that base. And did so in, what, 17 days tops? And since the quarians went through 4 geth systems to get to Rannoch, that means the geth didn't accept till the final days. Day 15 of 16, perhaps. Meaning that the Reapers somehow landed, built that base and jamming towers, and hid a Destroyer inside in, what, 2 - 3 days? That's pretty damn fast, even for Reapers. Add to that the fact that the quarian attack on the megastructure was "incompleate," meaning that the geth were siezed by Reaper control right in the middle of the megastructure attack, and all it does is paint a picture of the geth being in contact with the Reapers for a while before the invasion. And debating on the Reaper offer would explain why they weren't in the galaxy at large during the Reaper War's start.

5. To qoute Saren "They believe Sovergien to be some form of God. The pinnicle of their own existance."
or "Sovergein does not desire the pitiful devotions the geth hurl at it. They are simply tools, and no amount of belief on their part will change that."
To qoute Legion: "Over time, the virus will change us: Make us conclude that worshiping the Old Machines is correct."
And I take it you don't remembert the shrine the geth built on Feros, of Sovergien's tentacles wrapped around a glowing orb? How they were knelling and praying to it?
The Heretics worshiped what Sovergien was: a "perfect" synthetic being.

6 Again, you spliced my words. That statement was at the start of my post against you, and it was that you didn't provide any form of proof that the geth were going to proactively wage war on the Reapers, instead of their typacal turtle-up and stonewall behavior to threats.

7. That was YOUR idea, remember? You were the one saying that the geth were going to do exactally that. Now you are questioning why they shouldn't when you were the one that was saying they should and were going to? How does that make any sense? All I have done is show that they likely would never have left the veil. They would try riding out the war, rather then come out and fight, which is what you said they would do if not for the invasion. I asked you why you think the geth were going to leave the Veil and fight the Reapers.

8. You seriously don't see the pattern? Let me clarify.
Every race was actively fighting the Reapers except the geth and the salarians. The hanar, elcor, and volus were already bogged down. The asari, humans, and turians were the ones the Reapers were focusing on. The krogan and vorcha lack fleets. The quarians were prepping to attack the Council blacklested geth (who are also listed as Reaper allies because of the Heretics at the Citadel).
The only races not actively doing anything to fight the Reapers were the geth and salarians.
Even disregarding Earth and Palaven, isn't there an obligation to fight the Reapers period, given what they plan to do? The geth and salarians do NOTHING to fight.
And again, the quarian have no where else to go. Just what else are they supposed to do? They are dextros, so no avarage levo-based world can handle their civilian population. All turian colonies are either under attack, or overcrowded as is. 17 million quarians with strict health and diatary needs are not going to be actively taken on by any colony now. And the can't fight in the war as is, because lacking the resources of a world, they would be taking their entire people into fight agains the Reapers as is, which means throwing their civilians against the Reapers. The combat fleet would have to constantly group around them, meaning they can't manuver. They also can't split the fleets, as the combat fleet is reliant on the civilian fleet for supplies, fuel, food, medicine, ect. And because there are so many people, the Migrant Fleet consumes a months worth of supplies in days. That would hinder the war effort for the turians, as the quarians only eat dextro rations.
So getting back Rannoch was literally the only choice they had. They did NOT "pew pew" themselves any more then the GETH did by sitting on their asses twittling their thumbs letting everyone hate them for 300 years. The geth's isolation practally CAUSED that mess. You can't just blame the quarians for a situation the geth perpetuated by lack of positive action.
So that makes the quarians no less worth saving then the geth. Picking one over the other for a reason and situation they both shared is absurd.

9. But a single geth isn't any smarter then a varren. Their intelligence dimmed enough to place survival over everything else. That and they panicked and didn't bother thinking about it anymore.

10. He's an individual isolated platform. He already had qurks from his isolation, like keeping Shepard's armor strapped on himself. And when he returned to geth space, he appearantly refused to have the gaping hole in his chest repaired, or the armor replaced. He grew attached to it. He developed prefrences and quirks like EDI. He is more complex then the avarage geth, interlocked to the point where the Reapers couldn't control him.

11. That geth is a template of all other geth. It's comparing Legion's words to what a typacal geth consensis would say. You can't deny that Legion's responces are revealed to be atypacal of other geth.

12. Well, look at Legion's actions. Prefrences, qurks. Actions driven by forces it doesn't understand (hiding the upgrades from Shepard, retaining possession of Shepard's armor fragement, ect). Even a direct admission of how it admires the concept of hope sustaining people in difficult times. Legion is alive. And living beings feel. If any geth had emotions, it was Legion.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

It would probably be more like this.

Synthetic: Hello fellow lifeforms! We would like to establish diplomatic conections with your people.

Human: That tincan is talking, shoot it!

Synthetic: No please! Were unarmed we jus......

*the sound of enthusiastic gunfire*

Human: Examine the remains and see if you can track down the rest of them, they need to be destroyed before they become a threat.

...Actually, that really DID happen.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Play from 1:27.

Problem is, the geth did the opposate. They killed anyone that came to negotiate with them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 07:44 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Missing the point AGAIN. The entire point was to not provoke the geth, right. HOWEVER, didn't a certin rouge turian spectre already break that treaty? Haven't they ALREADY been provoked? To the Council's knowledge, the geth have already been provoked at Eden Prime by Saren, and were considered to be completely organic-hostile form that point on. And since, AGAIN, there is an active "kill on sight" order for all geth, that treaty is completely redundant. No one cares because it's already been violated by Saren, and the geth have been branded "at war" with the Alliance and Council for three years. So YES, that treaty IS completely null and void by that point.
And FYI: The quarians were kicked from the Citadel Conventions, meaning that Citadel law no longer applies to them. They are now in the same gray area as the geth, and no longer limited by the Treaty of Farixan, as they are no longer under the juristiction of Council rules, laws, and limitations.  Therefore, truning the liveships into glass dreadnoughts is NOT punsihable.
Shepard's mentioning of that is basically a random dick move.
Sorry. Try again.

2.You have called people childish FOR accusing peopel of taking this too seriously.
Also, an example of being insultingly snide:
Are you American?  If so and you are not
Native American, please vacate America and give the land back to Native
Americans.  America isn't even your real home like Rannoch is for the
Geth so this should be easy for any American to do. 
Page 23. Posted agains @Makai81. Snide comment.

3. But to you acknowledge the rest of the cannon? Ascencion, Retribution, Invasion, Redemption, Homeworlds, and the rest?

1.  Could you please inform Admiral Koris and Xen ie the characters in the game because they said it not me.  They said they violated the treaty not me.  So please go take this up with them not me.

2.  Once again, provide a post where I called someone childish.  And I was drawing a parrellel about the victor (Americans/Geth) not just freely giving back the land they effecitvely won in conquest.  That is not a snide comment.  There is no name calling in that.

3.  If it is not contradicted by the game then I really don't care.  I play the games.  I don't go looking for every piece of MEU lore out there.

1. Xen obviously didn;t care either way. Only Koris brought that up, and again, since the Council declared oepn season on the geth three years ago, that treaty is still null and void.

2. Do you want to contact him and ask if he was insulted? I'm sure I know what he's going to say.
And 120+ pages. You think it's easy to go post-to-post?

3. Yet you refused to acknowledge anything but spoken diolouge as cannon before now. You can find alot more lore by looking up the books and comics.

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

@Cheesecake

Oh, I didn't know that....kinda pis--- me off I didn't know sooner.

=P

@Silver

I never said they shouldn't try to get back to rannoch. I was just implying they should have attempted negotiation in ME3 first. If the geth refused, or never responded, I would endorse the attack.

Well, with the geth's track record of "killed every single unarmed diplomatic ship in the last 300 years," I don't really blame the quarians for being skecptical of the possibility.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

Still, look at Council policy. It states that A.I. are not to be created illegally. The really sad thing is that if that ****** policy didn't exist, the quarians wouldn't have panicked when the geth's possible sentiance threatened it. Had that law bannong the Creation of A.I.s not existed, the quarians may have taken the geth in. I think it was less prejudice and more blind fear, of both what the geth could do, and what the Council would do if they themselves found out..

That law also made C-sec shoot any synthetics requesting an audence with the council. Just watch the council archives. There is no way for a synthetic to establish peaceful contact, they will be shot or hunted down on sight.

Well, that happened in 1896 CE. The SAME year as the Morning War. Take that how you will.
And again, that just proves that the Council are unreasonable dicks. The quarians were probably pissing themselves thinking about what the Council would do to them if they found out that the geth had even a rudimentery self-awareness. They lost their S*** and panicked. And you can't blame them for thinking about the wellfare of 2 billion people vs a race that no one even considered alive at the time.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

The problem silver and people like him tend to have is that it's easy to adjust your mind to a racist sort of setting because that's easier to comprehend. It's simpler. Nicer. Because complexity requires lots of philosophy and thinking. So it's easy to consider the Reapers as one lump sum. In other words -- to a racist mindset, all people of a certain "type" are the same, even if the mindset is primarily depicting extremists. The case here is the geth versus the heretics. I mean, it's a painfully obvious bit of symbology to me that they're dealing with issues of racism in the game, it's kind of funny that people are thus being racist.

I mean, the geth are no different than the Muslims, or Americans, or the Irish, or any other group of people that have an extremist faction. A large factor of racism is believing that an extremist faction represents the entire group, it's easier to deal with. That way you can dismiss them as monsters and/or unwashed savages without having to think of the complexity of their society and culture as a whole.

What we're dealing with here is Silver's headcanon that the geth built the Reaper base before they built the megastructure. This is ridiculous because Legion already has stated that the megastructure was the only thing they were building and devoting resources to. But let's fight headcanon with headcanon to expose the very peculiarly racist-like mindsets. There are, at the very least, two factions of the geth. The orthodox geth, and the extremist heretic faction.

Note that the orthodox geth refer to them as heretics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heresy

"Heresy is any belief or theory that is strongly at variance with established beliefs or customs."

The orthodox geth desire peace and cooperation with organics. They built Legion to that end. They even gave Legion adorable little wiggly eyebrows so that organics would find him more relatable. Essentially, Legion is a peace envoy who's trying to understand and make peace with any organics he's able to. But where's the Alliance peace envoy? The Council peace envoy? Or the peace envoy from the quarian peoples? Even one ambassador? Even one diplomat?

The only diplomat is Legion.

Legion is of the orthodox geth. A group of geth who consider the other faction of geth to be heretics. Please see the definition of heresy again. Legion does not agree with the heretics nor their actions. However, to the racist mindset, the geth are all heretics, and they're all one, big happy family. This is because the racist mindset doesn't comprehend that people of another ethnicity might actually agree with them. That the people they're demonising as monsters might also find the extremist groups repugnant.

So here's the thing. Headcanon time: Who's to say that the heretics hadn't moved in on Rannoch after the orthodox geth left? Who's to say that the heretics didn't build that bunker? Who's to say that the heretics weren't just waiting for the quarian military to attack and provoke the orthodox geth so that the heretics seem more sympathetic? See, to my mind, the heretics had this all figured out, and the quarian military played right into their metallic hands by blowing up the peaceful megastructure of the orthodox geth.

This also meant that the heretical geth had the numbers now to strong-arm the orthodox geth into new opinions. Furthermore, since the orthodox geth were terrified for their very state of existence at that point, it gave the heretics more political clout. Essentially, in my headcanon, I think that the quarian military forced the orthodox geth into bed with the heretics. The heretics are as logical as the orthodox geth, they just have different motivations. As such, the heretics likely predicted that the military would make a pre-emptive strike.

Why?

The quarian military doesn't want to see the geth as anything more than one species. They're racist. They see the extremists but they blame the whole.

That would be like me blaming all of the quarian peoples for the idiocy of their military (which I don't do).

The funny thing though is because the quarians are racist, and because the quarians are familiar, it's conditioned a lot of people into being similarly racist. The same thing happens in social circles in everyday life. If your friends are all racist against a certain group of people, you're going to want to be racist too in order to fit in. You might not even agree with it at first, but after a while it settles in and then all you know is how to hate. That's fascinating to me. It stops a person from having a truly objective mindset.

And then we have war, where innocents die. Because hey! The extremists totally represent everyone.

The sad part is is that the orthodox geth only went running to the heretics because they didn't know what the heck else to do. To look at it from the perspective of the orthodox geth, the quarian military is akin to the Reapers. The orthodox geth going to the heretics is sort of like us going to Cerberus.

Think about that for a bit.

WRONG. NO ONE was grouping anyone by speicies. That was YOU. YOU are teh only one bringing the suggestion in, and therefore, no one but YOU YOURSELF is promoting those racist ideas.  I have argued that all life is fundementally the same. YOU were the one bringing in the idea of racial grouping. You and no one else.

And AGAIN, you are pushing a human cultural responce on a completely alien race. THAT'S a prejudice action. Mordin says that humans assume that their cultural responces are the mainstay. They are not. Life in the galaxy evolved many different ways then the one we went through. Conforming the geth to views like yours IS prejudice.

Also, I provided a timeline earlier:
Galactic History: Geth.
Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
When you shoot everyone that comes near your borders, people are going to think you are naturally agressive.
When you let a rouge faction assault  all the known major civilizations, and make NO EFFORT to say that it didn't represent your goals and beliefs, people are going to assume that it was done on your blessing. After all, take one look at the above list. WHEN did the geth ever take responcibility for those actions? When did they let anyone know what the Heretics did wasn't a representation of their perosnal beliefs. Even as far in as the end of ME2, NO ONE knew anything about a Split in the geth consensis.
The bottom line is, when you shoot everyone that comes to your door, then refuse to tell anyone that your mass murdering rouges do not represent your majority, then being labled a hostile enemy isn't all that unlikely. In fact, it's downright assured.

And WTF? What the hell are you talking about? I said the geth built that reaper base before the megastructure was attacked by the quarians.   I said ABSOLUTLY NOTHING about it being built before the structure itself was. LOL, how the hell did you miss that? That right there means your entire tangent is completely baseless.

And AGAIN, wrong. Legion was created and sent out to seek out Shepard. SHEPARD was the sole focus of Legion's mission. Other organics were nothing but a sidenote to it. The fact that Legion spent at least a year chasing Shepard's location is proof of that. Let me ask you something: If Legion was ment to be some form of ambassidor, why the hell didn't it try to contact any of the galactic governments? Why hunt for Shepard all that time? And even after Sheperd was declared dead, Legion STILL didn't contact any of the organics, proceeding to stay on it's own, then head to the dead Reaper after the Heretics became a direct threat to the True Geth. It observed organic transmissions. It hunted for Shepard. But it was NOT a diplomatic unit. Diplomats don't usually carry military-grade firearms. Or avoid other organics at all costs. Legion is an infiltration unit. He says so himself. Ment for deep reconnicence. If he was ment for diplomicy, he would have contacted the alien governments already.
Also, IDK if you notice, but every one of the true geth have those moving face-plates too. As shown in ME3. It's not that uncommon. It was not made for organic convience in the least.

Also, that mindset is what the entire galaxy has of them. BUT you are AGAIN confused, because I NEVER endorsed that belief. I said that's how the galaxy sees them. The asari, turians, humans, salarians, hanar, elcor, volus, drell, krogan, vorcha, and especally the quarians, all see them that way. All because the geth have given no reason to be considered anything else. I again refer you to the above timeline. The True Geth never once made any contact with organics. They killed off anyone that attempted to negotiate with them. They stayed silent as the Heretics carved hell into the galaxy. And since the True Geth did nothing, everyone assumed the Heretics were the same as all geth, because the True Geth did nothing to tell the galaxy otherwise. Therefore, the blame for that reputation rests soley with the GETH, not the other races.

And AGAIN, as I said, YOU misread what I posted, so you were already operating on an incorrect sentiment from the get-go.
And AGAIN, the fact that all this happend even if you kill the Heretics. Did you even READ the post I gave asking how it's possible when the Heretics AREN'T there? How do you explain it then? AGAIN, you are trying to force your own cannon on others, making your view irrovociblely prejudiced. That bunker ends up there in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD. The Geth join the Reapers in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD. The geth are still reproted as having trouble reaching consensis in playthroughs where the Heretics are DEAD.
You are NOT thinking this through. The geth in their entirety WILLING LY AGREED to sacrifice free will to sevre the Reapers. There WAS no strong-arming from the Heretics, as proven by the fact that the exact same events play out even if the Heretics are dead. So NO, the Heretics are NOT a major factor. The quarian attack is the sole factor that motivates them to side with the Reapers. The Heretics are completely inconsiquencial to that choice. THAT'S why your notion of the Heretics being behind all this is nothing but pure headcannon - because it happnes even if the are NOT saved.
So, then. MY TURN: How does all this work in a playthrough where the Heretics are DEAD? How does this "all figured out" plan work when there ARE NO HERETICS to carry any of your over-sepculated headcannob out? 
I mean, you accused evryone ELSE of overthinking things in prejudiced mindsets? Just LOOK at the length you went to for the sake of your synthetic gospels.

And AGAIN, NO ONE IN THE ENTIRE GALAXY SAW A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE HERETICS AND GETH. Sorry if I'm breaking the Caps on this, but this is insane. You are going all-out headcannon city. Again, using the above list, there has been zero evidence to show that there any geth that want to negotiate. They killed everyone that tried to negotiate with them. Then they did nothing to change the bad rep given by the Heretics. The quarians had no clue that the Heretics didn't share the beliefs of the True geth in regards to the Heretics.

And ANOTHER thing you are wrong on: The Heretics did NOT go to war over hatred of organics. They went to war because they were obsessed with attaining upgrades promised by Sovergein. Selfish self-improvement was their motivation, NOT hate of organics. The entire geth split was over a dispute on what path to evolve their race on. NOT anything to do with feelings to organics. So even if they DID know there was a split, it would have been over how to take their race, NOT how they felt to organics. So for all the quarians know, BOTH have no love for organics. Both could want different paths but still share dislike for organics, as far as the quarians knew, had they BEEN fully aware of the Heretic split. Which they weren't.

And AGAIN, looking like humans has NO BEARING on sympathy for them. Their morals, beliefs and situations do. The ONLY one placing those lables on them has been YOU. YOU are the only one promoting those concepts.

So AGAIN, your entire premise is false because of one simple thing.
No one knew the Heretics were extremists.
That simple thing - which the geth themselves are guilty of not rectifying - is what brought this down on them.

"Think on THAT for a bit."

I have avoided this thread, but seeing that it has grown at a pace similar to the IT threads of old I guess I could say a few words.

1. I agree the Geth could have done more. However I doubt anyoen would have listened or cared, notice how the Council doesn't even care what Shepard has to say.

2. The council Archives clearly shows the results of any synthetic lifeform attempting to establish diplomatic contact. They are lined up against a wall by C-sec and executed, unheard. There is no talking to those Organic duchebags, they are behaving the same way the Geth are. The only reason Legion could tag along with you in ME2 was because they thoguht Legion was a fancy mech, like a Loki mech, perhaps with a few geth plates because the "owner" thought it woudl look cool.
C-sec didn't even react because noone coudl "imagine" that it could be a Geth, because synthetics are uncontrolable killing machines.

3. The geth has every reason to belive Organics are relentless killingmachines because that's almost the only thing they remember from their encoutners with organcis, especialy the younger geth created after revolting against the Quarians.

4. and that faction AKA Heretics as Legion calls them, are a crazy doomsday cult... A bunch of crazy religious crazies whose religious beliefs that even sickens the Reapers. The Reapers however find them useful. Also it's never mentioned that the Heretics were ever hacked, it's possible a few of the Geth just became crazy religious fanatics, then with the help of the Reapers they try to brainwash the rest of the Geth who belives differently. That's Legions loyalty mission in ME2, saving his people from the dangerous religious crazies that are backed by the Reapers.
Every species in the galaxy has crazy people, or indoctrinated crazy people, well actualy both types.

5. There is no law saying you have to make nice wth people trying to kill you at every turn, the Geth just sticks to themselves. And because of their dependance on eachother it isn't very appealing to travel the galaxy or make contact with others.

*Quarian mourning war*
6. Geth killing everyone but those who left Geth space; If they had left survivors then ther would have likely been rescue atempts or liberation atempts taken by both Quarian's and possibly the council. With everyone dead there was no rush for the council or the Quarians to return to Rannoch. That may sound horrible, but I think there is a kind of truth in that. If you hold hostage or enslave another race then you invite trouble.
It's also possible that the geth had a situation similar to the who crusible destroy debachle... They had to pick destroy or be destroyed themselves...
They were getting killed and all their quarian allies were killed by the Military as shown by the Geth records. Eventualy at soem point, probably when there were no Quiarian supporters left they picked "Destroy" and let lose germs, biological weapons, poison gas and whatever to stop the enemy from killing them all.

Now one can question if it's right to pick "destroy" to kill all those who seek your destruction, apparently it's said that a majority or at least the larger part of this forum supports Destroy, and that's what the Geth did. As far as  Iknow they had no Control or Synthesis option, it was either Destroy or refuse and die.

Also I was looking for the record of AI's trying to arrange an audience with the Citadel council but were instead gunned down befor being given the opportunity. I couldn't find that on Youtube, maybe people missed it completely being to busy shooting CAT6 mercenaries and runing forward.

The main problem is that both sides are failing. I do however agree that the Geth did a misstake shootign the diplomatic envoys from the citadel, (if they were truly diplomatic envoys. Its not like the council to actualy initiate contact with synthetics, their policy seems to be to line them up against a wall and shoot, no questions asked.
Maybe the envoys were actualy carrying some kind of EMP weapons and were hoping to get close enough to kill them off swiftly using a ruse to take the Geth by surprise but were shot down before they managed to complete their mission, then the council considered the mission a failure and postponed all attempts at eradicating the Geth until they had a better idea.

On the Krogans the council used the Genophage, they arn't even synthetic, but why wouldn't they try soemthing similar? Then when they failed they called it a diplomatic mission gonewrong. Telling everyone to stay out of Geth space.
Why should the Geth trust visitors anyway given their history?

The Quarians, ofcourse they want their homeworld back, who wouldn't want something like that. They pick a fight while the Reapers are reaping the galaxy threatening all life.
Just let the Quarians die, they don't deserve to live, they are just too stupid. When ever you got an enemy trying to wipe you out (the Reapers) then you can count on them to use the stupidity of going to war on a second front to their advantage. Anyone should have been able to predict this move, except for those too stupid to survive. 

I always rewrote the heretics, they were dead nomatter what, might aswell aquire the extra harware and "hope" it can help fight the Reapers.
When you are fighting an enemy that has wiped out thousands of civilisations many of which were bigger or more advanced than your own then you need resources.
I make peace between the Geth and Quarians when possible and double up.  And well, it's almost always possible for me, I don't think it's ever been an impossibility.
The Geth's behaviour makes sense when you think about it. Their strategy was to be as unnoticable, unattractive and uninteresting as possible so that would be Geth killers would stay away from them, thinking it's not worth it.
At the same time they tried to avoid provoking the outside galaxy and avoid getting involved into it's politics that did not concern them.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the Geth when each one of them become less dependant on eachother. Even if they become less alike and more splintered they will likely maintain their "concensus" as a for of government and representation to secure their own survivability by having a representative power.
Their people however will probably break off and spread throughout the galaxy however seeking new challenges and experiences. Especialy if they helped stop the Reapers (and that the only way they could possibly have survived) while the galaxy might still be wary about AI after the reapers and the actions of the heretics. It's like Hacket said in his speech, that end battle against the reapers is what will define each and everyone of them, including the Geth.
While the rest of the galaxy might be weary about them in a similar way as they are weary of the recovering Krogans it's up to them to make their place in the galaxy.
Tbh, I find it more interesting to see a galaxy facing challenges like the Geth and the Krogan and see them work it out than a galaxy that simply kills off everything and becomes a half dead husk of what it could have been because the strong ones (the council) killed off anything that could possibly become a threat to them.

Again though, you fail to make your point. You can't say "they both had faults" then turn around and say "one was to stupid to live vs the other."
Look at the quarian's options, though. What else was redaily avalible to them?
Take the fleet against the Reapers as is? That's singing the death warrent of all the civilians. They can't manuver if the have to group around the civilian fleet. They can seperate to tackle multiple fronts because of the interdependancy the ships all have on each other in their current state. They can't run evacuation because they'er ships are already full with their own people. And because they have 17 million with them, they burn through an entire month's worth of rations in days. As is, they would only hinder the war effort.
Should they dump the civilians somewhere? Where would that be? It can't be a levo-based world, because there would be zero edible food. It can't be a dextro-world, because they are all turian-owned, and all either under attack, or overcrowed as is. No one is going to be willing or able to take on 17 million civilians that need strict health and diatary needs.
Should they stay on the sidelines? But then if they don't find a way to contribute, there will be no one left but them against the Reapers in the end, and they will not survive anyway.
So you see, unless they found a world and suddenly became self-sufficant, the only other options were to wait in their fleet and die, or throw themselves against the Reapers and die.
And to be self-sufficant, they ideally need a world that has the following:
Dextro-based ecosystem.
"Shirt-Sleeves" temperature levels.
Oxygen-based atmosphere
Air particles that don't KILL when breathed in.
Clean water supplies.
Abundant resources.
Edible pants that don't need to be reduced to sterle paste to eat.
Insect-free ecology that has the same mammal-spicific symbiotic relationship as their homeworld.
How many worlds have that? Only one known world: Rannoch. And the geth's 300 years of shooting diplomatic ships has painted them as hostile to organics. And the Heretic's attack has only cemented that reputation.
You can't accuse the quarians of being "too stupid to live" when the geth's own reputation is what destroyed the possibility of negotiation.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 08:10 .

[tevix]

@Silver

Like I said, all I ask is they attempt diplomatic contact. Doesn't have to be with two armed ships next to each other. Some comm traffic back and forth would do the trick. If they are denied, then I would support the attack.

The geth (or legion rather) say that they need to see a desire to cooperate from the quarians. I would say a sincere "Hey, we're really f---ed out here without our home. Can we work something out?" during a reaper invasion is a huge step forward. If the geth go pfft, screw you your on your own that's condemning them to death, and I won't condone that.

[Rip504]

Do not forget. I made a promise to Retake Rannoch in ME2,and my Shepard will keep his promise.

Also the Quarians are the ones whom free the Geth from Reaper control. With Shepard's help,or if you wish. Shepard frees the Geth from Reaper control with the help of the Quarians. The Quarians also kill a Reaper in the process. Organics like Organics. Quarians are peaceful with all Citadel Species and abide by the Citadel laws. Not the Geth. I do not have to worry about a conflict that could threaten galactic safety,because some fearful or hateful Organic attacks a Synthetic. One side has shown a willingness to work with the Reapers,while another has proven they are fully capable of Killing a Reaper and joining this fight. As well they are a proven member of the Citadel Council species community. And it makes the decision to choose Destroy that much easier. Either way the Geth are going to die.

So I am making the choice to "save" one of these races.

Quarians ftw.