4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

@Silver

Like I said, all I ask is they attempt diplomatic contact. Doesn't have to be with two armed ships next to each other. Some comm traffic back and forth would do the trick. If they are denied, then I would support the attack.

The geth (or legion rather) say that they need to see a desire to cooperate from the quarians. I would say a sincere "Hey, we're really f---ed out here without our home. Can we work something out?" during a reaper invasion is a huge step forward. If the geth go pfft, screw you your on your own that's condemning them to death, and I won't condone that.

That's what the geth did to everyone else - tell them to screw off. All those peace evnoys did send out hails and such, as did the Council, who tried sending messeges and attempt remot contact. The geth never responded to any transmission sent into the Veil, and any ship, unarmed or not, was blown to hell. Merchents, mercs, diplomats, privateers. Not one organic ship that went into the veil came back out.

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

7.  If I could kill the Reapers without killing EDI and the Geth, I would.  Either way you are imposing a decision on people.  The difference is with Destroy you impose your decision on people who conveniently you end up wiping from existence so you don't have to hear their complaints versus the other options where for everyone who may not like Synthesis there is probably a guy like Joker who not being injured, sick, or ill anymore or living in constant pain.  So I am not sure how a decision that affects everyone the same and that will have people for and against it is better than a decision that prejudicially marks for extinction a particular group who can't even voice their objection because they are dead.

I agree with everything I snipped. I also agree with what I bolded and I think your argument for synthesis is the most sound I've read so far.  The bolded part is why I love MEHEM because to me, using the in game destory option is akin to abiding by the reaper King's logic. Which I don't agree with, especially not after seeing the peace between the Quarians and Geth. I see no reason why EDI and the Geth should die just to kill the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

It would probably be more like this.

Synthetic: Hello fellow lifeforms! We would like to establish diplomatic conections with your people.

Human: That tincan is talking, shoot it!

Synthetic: No please! Were unarmed we jus......

*the sound of enthusiastic gunfire*

Human: Examine the remains and see if you can track down the rest of them, they need to be destroyed before they become a threat.

...Actually, that really DID happen.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYqx51bdcDw
Play from 1:27.

Problem is, the geth did the opposate. They killed anyone that came to negotiate with them.

They probably learned that from their former masters. Like VI Legion says, the Quarians can't be trusted they keep lying and deceiving. I guess they didn't trust other organics more than they trusted the Quarians.

Except this happened paralel to the Morning War. Not before, not after. Alongside. The timestamp lists it as the same year the Morning War took place. So, NO. That hate of synthetics wan't born of the quarians. The Council had that long before. So NO, you can't blame the quarians for that.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

remydat wrote...

7.  If I could kill the Reapers without killing EDI and the Geth, I would.  Either way you are imposing a decision on people.  The difference is with Destroy you impose your decision on people who conveniently you end up wiping from existence so you don't have to hear their complaints versus the other options where for everyone who may not like Synthesis there is probably a guy like Joker who not being injured, sick, or ill anymore or living in constant pain.  So I am not sure how a decision that affects everyone the same and that will have people for and against it is better than a decision that prejudicially marks for extinction a particular group who can't even voice their objection because they are dead.

I agree with everything I snipped. I also agree with what I bolded and I think your argument for synthesis is the most sound I've read so far.  The bolded part is why I love MEHEM because to me, using the in game destory option is akin to abiding by the reaper King's logic. Which I don't agree with, especially not after seeing the peace between the Quarians and Geth. I see no reason why EDI and the Geth should die just to kill the Reapers.

Probably the way the thing was designed. I don't think any other cycle actually considered the possibility that organics and synthetics would co-habitate. They probably saw the Reapers as proof that synthetics are bad, so created the Crucible to spicifically kill synthetics.
IDK where the Control or Synthesis options came from. I think the Catalyst created those.
Also, I'm not sure on the Synthesis being better. Killing advancement picemeal by destroying all limitation seems like a bad idea. Mordin tells you that culture needs limitations to advance past and adapt to, and that if you remove those limitations, cultural development will stagnate. He also talks on how giving a culture technology it's not ready for can be just as devastating. Synthesis seems to be the worst case senerio - killing cultural advancement and giving tech no one is ready for.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 06:27 .

[S.A.K]

@remydat
1. I never said Quarians were right for attacking the Geth. That maybe how you start a dialogue to resolve an arguement between two people. You are saying some Quarian should go and tell Legion "you were right and we were wrong" or something like that? Have you ever heard of a war ending like that? They could have done that in 300 years since the war. Too bad the Geth kept killing everyone trying to communicate. Well atleast the soldiers guarding the docking bay didn't shoot Legion on the spot. Have you ever heard of a war ending like that? Try to be realistic dude.
2. You know, computer systems sometimes do things that was not programmed. Some things couse this like viruses or system glitches. So those systems are acutally self-aware now? That geth saw the word "soul" on religious text and asked that question. I am not qualified to say weather that Geth have a soul.  Are you? Even after it is clear this system is showing signs of AI, they are still treated as equipment. What do you think would have happened if people on earth found out that EDI was a true AI. So I say again, try to be realistic.
3. So you agree that the Geth are willing to screw the galaxy and sees all council races as enemies. Saving the Geth at any point looks like a real bad idea. Btw, do you think that the Geth will abide by council rules like treaty of farixen? Or will they be loose cannons?
4. Pre-MW? Seriously? Last one shows Quarians abandoning Rannoch. I guess they left before the MW then.
5. Legion would calculate it to be the best option at the time. Just like joining Reapers. What do you know about the Reaper code to make it so trust worthy?
6. I Guess you agree that Geth wanted to brain wash or kill the Heretics because Geth were prejudice.
7. Fine point untill they keep killing for 300 more years.
8. Fair enough I guess.

Edit : Added point 4. Missed it earlier. You had 2 threes.
I wouldn't be answering for few hours. It's mid-night here.

Modifié par S.A.K, 01 avril 2013 - 06:31 .

[Steelcan]

Insanity still reigning

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

tevix wrote...

@SAK

Permanent deactivation is the same as death to a synthetic. The geth were sentient, they should have attempted communication instead of just ASSUMING the geth would attack.

The geth attack because their survival was threatened. They didn't attack because they were being used for labor.

Secondly, if you deny a sentient individual rights on account of it not being the same race as you, that is a fine example of prejudice.

It's funny, we make movies and stories about machines rebelling because we freak out and try to kill them because we are afraid they might attack.

Yet when we create sentient machines we will make the same mistake we make movies about.

Ok thanks for clearing that out. Guess humans are mostly prejudice. Hope we don't end up with skynet... or Geth. Tends to be a bad day.

Still, look at Council policy. It states that A.I. are not to be created illegally. The really sad thing is that if that ****** policy didn't exist, the quarians wouldn't have panicked when the geth's possible sentiance threatened it. Had that law bannong the Creation of A.I.s not existed, the quarians may have taken the geth in. I think it was less prejudice and more blind fear, of both what the geth could do, and what the Council would do if they themselves found out..

That law also made C-sec shoot any synthetics requesting an audence with the council. Just watch the council archives. There is no way for a synthetic to establish peaceful contact, they will be shot or hunted down on sight.

Well, that happened in 1896 CE. The SAME year as the Morning War. Take that how you will.
And again, that just proves that the Council are unreasonable dicks. The quarians were probably pissing themselves thinking about what the Council would do to them if they found out that the geth had even a rudimentery self-awareness. They lost their S*** and panicked. And you can't blame them for thinking about the wellfare of 2 billion people vs a race that no one even considered alive at the time.

Same year? I'm not that good with years, maybe it was related, maybe those AI's were related to the Geth or were Geth who had taken over mech bodies to petition the council.
If the council's guards "assasinated" the diplomatic envoys of the Synthetics then I can't immagine the Geth would respond better to others entering their space.
Did that happen before the Quarians were driven of Rannoch or after? Maybe they asked the council for recognition after the Quarians tried to shut them down, then they got shot down by the gouncils guards.. Which in the minds of the Geth proved that all Organics were against them and wouldn't give them a fair chance.

I don't think so. The geth would have sent envoys themselves - they wouldn't bother with mechs. I'm pretty sure this is a completely seperate group of A.I.s. Also, since that recording was in the Council Archives, I don't think it was public knowledge. Otherwise, why hide it? I think they really were assassinated, and then the event was covered up. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if no one ever even knew this group of A.I.s even existed.
So I think this event may have been isolated from the geth's judgement, since I don't think the geth could transmitt past the Veil back then. Remember, geth with Legion-level intelligence were not common till 2185.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 06:35 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Xen obviously didn;t care either way. Only Koris brought that up, and again, since the Council declared oepn season on the geth three years ago, that treaty is still null and void.

2. Do you want to contact him and ask if he was insulted? I'm sure I know what he's going to say.
And 120+ pages. You think it's easy to go post-to-post?

3. Yet you refused to acknowledge anything but spoken diolouge as cannon before now. You can find alot more lore by looking up the books and comics.

1.  You are not in the game Silver.  Xen and Koris are.  They say it was a treaty violation. 

2.  People are offended about things all the time.  That doesn't actually mean the intent was to be snide or offend.  I don't need to assume or speculate about anything when you called me a ******.  ****** is an insult.  Nothing I said in the post you provided is an insult.  That is how you choose to interpret my words when you can't judge my actual intent nor can you even judge the tone in which I said something because it was written and not verbal.  When I want to be insulting, you will know 100%.  So sorry, you calling me a ****** is not the same as you disagreeing with me and so choosing to interpret neutral words as snide remarks.

3.  This is incorrect.  I said I don't think something in an old book is canon if the later story changed.  I never commented on other books or lore because they were not the topic of discussion.  So you are confusing me with something else.  I have no read these other books and comics so I can't comment on whether they are canon or not because I don't know if there is anythng in them that contradicts the game or not.

1. Of a treaty that is already invalad, thanks to the Alliance and Council's own declerations of War against the geth. No one cares about a treaty that is already invalid.

2. I can find at least 6 people that disagree with that sentiment.

3. But that HASN'T happened. Only ONE book was ever retconned, and guess what? It was the ONLY book that was NOT written by a member of the ME writing team. NONE of the books or comics have contrididced ANY lore, save for that one book. So you don't have to worry about conflicting cannon.

[Auld Wulf]

@Hazegurl

Frustrating, innit?

The part that depresses me the most about this thread is that despite all the lessons taught to us by reality over the history of our species, there are still some people who can't separate extremists from the populace. Like I said, blaming the geth for the actions of the heretics is like blaming the Irish for the actions of the IRA.

What so many people refuse to understand is that the heretics are basically the geth version of extremists and, if I must use the word, terrorists. That word people seem to understand. The problem there though is that you then have people who believe that all of a certain ethnicity or species are terrorists, rather than just one extremist group. I say this as a Welsh person, and to my knowledge, the Welsh haven't had any extremist groups (so I'm not defending myself, here).

It's also like blaming all Americans for the actions of American white supremacist extremists against other ethnicities. I don't do that. That's stupid. Furthermore, that just increases hate and it's playing into their hands. When an extremist group has gotten you thinking in black and white terms, they've won, because the next step then is war. And that's what extremists pretty much tend to want -- the eradication of their enemies.

The geth have extremists -- the heretics.
The quarians have extermists -- the military.

The military and the heretics do not speak for all of the quarians or all of the geth, respectively.

It's amazing that people don't understand this. Amazing, and utterly frustrating.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Not again dude. Some animals are self-aware and it is nothing new. Search a bit for more info. They don't have to ask does this unit have a soul to be considered self-aware. Have occured to you animals can't f*cking talk? As said in game, single geth units are no more intelligent than animals. But they have the ability to talk. And I am not gonna start a religious debate with you.
Ok screw this. Geth have been nothing but trouble sinse the day they started thinking. All they have done so far is killing, killing and some more killing. So I am not gonna even think about siding with those murder machines over Quarians or even Pyjaks for that matter.
<_<

And again, we are using the terms differently.  When I use terms such as self-aware, sentitent, sapient, I am referring to an organism having the ability to ponder it's own existence.  A soul is the part of us that is immortal.  It lives on after death.  So pondering whether you have a soul is indicative that you have reached a level of consciousness beyond that of basic biological survival.  It suggests you are pondering the metaphysical.  That is the distiction I was trying to make not using self-aware in the sense of an animal being able to recognize itself in the mirror as opposed to thinking it is another animal they are seeing.

And again, if an animal does possess that ability to ponder what happens to it when it dies and we decide to kill it because we see it as a threat then if we get killed then we have no one but ourselves to blame for antagonizing it.

The Geth have been trouble since the Quarians tried to kill them not when they started thinking.  They started thinking and merely asked a question.  You specifically asked me to answer you questions and I did. 

You asked me to answer your questions, I did.  If you did not want to engage in a debate then you could have said "screw those evil toasters," and be done with it. 

This soul thing depends on your religious beliefs. Not all religions consider it that way. And the Geth asking about a soul does not mean it's thinking all this sh!t. Also that animal self aware thing is much more than recognizing its reflection. You should read about it if you are interested.
But my point is simple. Not all life is considered equal in reality. Correct? If it is synthatic life it would be considered even lower. And I am not saying it is right. I not against the Geth because they are synthatic. It is because of thier actions. I have tried think about this with other races in Geths' place. Quarians did start it. But Geth did nothing to correct this. And you will have to agree that Geth have caused way more pain and suffering than Quarians.
If I seemed hostile, that is because you seemed to value Geth over other life. It was not to make you upset. And I don't think I have the knowladge to judge which species have souls.

[Da Don Giovanni]

Steelcan wrote...

Insanity still reigning

You didn't get the memo? Good debates are the new black!

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
1. Again, wrong. Legion does nothing to disprove Tali's suspicions. Nothing at All. [/quote]

This is only your opinion and I disagree with it. Tali doesn't dispute Leigon. At all. Like you, she states a bunch of basless theories. She knows nothing of what was going on with the Geth. Period. I believe Leigon, as he knows a heck of a lot more than Tali about what was going on with his own people. I'm not addressing this part anymore. You'll just have to read my past posts or just let it go that you won't convince me. When you actually find proof to back up all your theories besides another theory that is then contradicted in game and the character herself doesn't defend.

[quote]2. Again, I repeat, nothing Legion says disproves the idea. [/quote]

You don't believe anything Leigon says simply because it contradicts the villianous view you wish to maintian about the Geth.  Another topic I am done with and will not repeat myself on.

[quote]3. Well, can you tell me any reason why they weren't fighting the Reapers by then?[/quote]

Why on earth should they run out and attack the Reapers?? Do you see any other race running out gunho to attack Reapers? No. They were preparing for an invasion like everyone else.

[quote]4. You switched words around. That sentance was in regard to why Reaper contact pre-Rannoch war was so likely.[/quote]

I didn't switch anything around. And once again, everything you've posted are your own theories with zero proof to say what did or did not happen. What we do know is that the Geth were perparing for a Reaper invasion, the Qaurians started a war by attacking multiple Geth systems damaging their network. The Reapers extended an offer and the Geth took it. The Reaper signal was controlling the Geth, when you go to Rannoch to destory it, it turned out to be a Reaper. Those are the facts given to us in game. Maybe you can't accept this truth because the Quarians just don't look good, I don't know. You keep stating your theories as fact and act like no one can dispute you on it. Well they can be disputed and I did. Read past posts if you like, but this is another topic I won't repeat myself on. agree to dsagree.


[quote]5. To qoute Saren "They believe Sovergien to be some form of God. The pinnicle of their own existance."....[/quote]

These are beliefs of Geth HERETICS. Why do you keep trying to insinuate that these are the beliefs of every Geth in the story? I guess I should assume that all the Quarians agreed to the war with the Geth because Gerrel and some admirals did. Yep that's what I'm going to do now. Completely ignore the Mass Effect story and just make a claim and stick to it. Koris was 100% for the Geth war. There was no one protesting the war with the Geth, none at all. Every Quarians was onboard completely including Tali. There.


[quote]6 Again, you spliced my words. That statement was at the start of my post against you, and it was that you didn't provide any form of proof that the geth were going to proactively wage war on the Reapers, instead of their typacal turtle-up and stonewall behavior to threats.[/quote]

I don't have to splice your words. I go by what was spoken in game as written by the writers. Leigon said they were preparing for the Reaper attack. Therefore they were preparing to fight Reapers. You claimed otherwise. The burden of proof falls on you.

[quote]7. That was YOUR idea, remember? You were the one saying that the geth were going to do exactally that. Now you are questioning why they shouldn't when you were the one that was saying they should and were going to? How does that make any sense? All I have done is show that they likely would never have left the veil. They would try riding out the war, rather then come out and fight, which is what you said they would do if not for the invasion. I asked you why you think the geth were going to leave the Veil and fight the Reapers.[/quote]

Don't put words in my mouth. I said "They were preparing to fight the Reapers" and you took it to mean that they should just rush to Earth and Palavan and rush out to just fight all the Reapers.  Like any of this makes a lick of sense to do when the Reapers are invading every planet.  This is your so called proof that Leigon was lying to Shepard? You're gonna have to do better than that.

[quote]8. You seriously don't see the pattern? Let me clarify.
Every race was actively fighting the Reapers except the geth and the salarians.[/quote]

No, not every race was actively fighting the reapers, not in the same way you claim the Geth should do. The other races were fighting invasions on their own planets and colonies. They had no choice but to fight. The Asari would not come to Earth's aid because they knew that while the Reapers were busying themselves killing humans they would have time to prepare their own homeworld for attack. The Krogan would not even enter the fight to save their own home world without a genophage cure. Name one race running out to go toe-to-toe with the Reapers like you claim the Geth should. None. The only time this happens is when Shepard pools everyone together at the end of the game.

[quote]And again, the quarian have no where else to go.[/quote]

Then just say that this is your reason as to why the Quarians are justified in attacking the Geth to reclaim their home world. Personally, I think its a stupid move. They should have followed Tali and Koris' advice. But nope big dumb Gerrel rules the roost.

[quote]12. Well, look at Legion's actions. Prefrences, qurks. Actions driven by forces it doesn't understand (hiding the upgrades from Shepard, retaining possession of Shepard's armor fragement, ect). Even a direct admission of how it admires the concept of hope sustaining people in difficult times. Legion is alive. And living beings feel. If any geth had emotions, it was Legion.
[/quote]

And I disagree. And even so, if Leigon feels shame the same way a human does, it still has nothing at all to do with the Geth siding with the Reapers.

[/quote]
1. And likewise, you didn't show anything proving that Legion disputed Tali. Also, Legion has shown that he isn't above lies of omission (concealing the true purpose of it's mission to the geth Server. Hiding the upgrades in general). So no, I haven't seen anything to make Legion any more trustworthy.
And AGAIN, I asked you what contridicted it in-game. You provided zip.

2. Again, WRONG. I say that because again, you failed to provide anything Legion said that contridicts it. When does Legion say "we weren't contacted prior to the war," or "we diffinitively would not have sided with them"? All I ever see is "it would not have been nessessary." Not "it wasn't an option."

3. The turians were attacking. The Alliance was. Every other race was actively resisting them. The geth and salarians were the only ones not doing so.

4. Blast-shielded Reaper base placed on Rannoch with jamming towers erected around it with pre-docked Destroyer all in place and active with corrosponding upgrades in geth dreadnought, all waiting JUST as the quarians start their megastructure attack? And all done in less then 3 days? You REALLY don't see how concidental that all is? The geth said they didn't accept the offer till the quarians were in Rannoch's system, attacking the megastructure. So, the attack would have been on at least day 15 of the invasion. And since the megastructure wasn't completely destroyed (the discription says that the attack was intterupted), it means the geth got the upgrades instantly, nearly the moment the megastructure was attacked. So, WRONG. The geth are the ones not looking too good right now, because I don't see how the Reapers had all that in place BEFORE the structure was attacked, as thats the only the signal could have been broadcasted so qucikly after the megastructure attack, as to intterupt the attack before it was finished.

5. I WASN'T. YOU were the one that said geth do not worship the Reapers. I pointed out the Heretics. You were the one that said "geth don't worship Reapers." Next time, be a bit more spicific on who you're talking about.
See what happened. Your lack of accurate communication caused an invalid responce. Sound familar to what we're discussing here?
And actually, most quarians DID agree to the war. Quarian law prohibits the Admirals from forcing the fleet to do anything, unless all the Admirals are in unanimous agreement on the course of action. Gerrel in ME2 spicifically says that they "almost had the votes" to go to war, meaning it was NOT Gerrel's dicision alone. The Conclave - a quarian senete made up of the captians and command crew of every ship in the fleet - must have a majority say. They must vote as well on any course of action pertaining to the fleet. So, YES, a majority of quarians DID willingly agree to march to war, as the Admirals are incapable of forcing the decision without all being in unanimous agreement.

6. They started out as wanting to defend against the Reapers, but not go out and actively fight them like the other races did. And again, the geth were having trouble "reaching consensis," on this, so they weren't as together as you may think.

7.  "Fight" means going out and actively combating the enemy before they get to you. That's not what the geth were doing. They were hunkering down. And again, the fact that the Reapers had emplacements set up on Rannoch that could not have been built so quickly, and the fact that the geth consensis was in termoil well before the invasion took place are also proof as well that the geth were in Reaper contact. They were more likely planning to prepare for it just in case. Their main plan was likely to hunker down and hope it passes over them.

8. The turians were actively fighting. The Alliance was actively fighting. The asari were actively fighting. The hanar, elcor, and volus were offering all the support they could muster while fighting themselves. The krogan and vorcha were isolated and didn't have ships to use. The quarians were retrofitting every ship avalible for war. The salarians and geth? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Almost as bad as the raloi, who just cut contact and hunkered down hoping the Reapers would pass them over.

9. Again, wrong. Gerrel was supported by Raan and Xen, as well as the majority of the quarian Conclave senete. And again, those reasons are why Gerrel was so intent to get the homeworld back. And the geth's past with shooting down every single diplomatic ship didn't exactally encourage trust in the concept of negotiation working, now did it? It's not "big and dumb." It's desperate. He's looking out for his people in crisis. I doubt one can say any better of Wrex, who holds the war hostage for his people.

10. It has to do with Legion disagreeing and regretting the choice. The very fact that it was chained up in the Dreadnought's core is proof that it wasn't a willing participant in the alliance.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Hazegurl

Frustrating, innit?

The part that depresses me the most about this thread is that despite all the lessons taught to us by reality over the history of our species, there are still some people who can't separate extremists from the populace. Like I said, blaming the geth for the actions of the heretics is like blaming the Irish for the actions of the IRA.

What so many people refuse to understand is that the heretics are basically the geth version of extremists and, if I must use the word, terrorists. That word people seem to understand. The problem there though is that you then have people who believe that all of a certain ethnicity or species are terrorists, rather than just one extremist group. I say this as a Welsh person, and to my knowledge, the Welsh haven't had any extremist groups (so I'm not defending myself, here).

It's also like blaming all Americans for the actions of American white supremacist extremists against other ethnicities. I don't do that. That's stupid. Furthermore, that just increases hate and it's playing into their hands. When an extremist group has gotten you thinking in black and white terms, they've won, because the next step then is war. And that's what extremists pretty much tend to want -- the eradication of their enemies.

The geth have extremists -- the heretics.
The quarians have extermists -- the military.

The military and the heretics do not speak for all of the quarians or all of the geth, respectively.

It's amazing that people don't understand this. Amazing, and utterly frustrating.

For God's sake, how many times do I have to say it?
WHERE was there anything that ever ONCE told the Alliance, the turians, the asari, the salarians, the elcor, the hanar, the volus, the krogan, the vorcha, or the quarians, that the Heretics didn't reperesent the main body of geth? I'm not telling you MY personal views. I'm telling you how EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE saw the geth.

Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper
invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for
nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under
Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.
These are the Council, Alliance, and quarian's known facts about the geth. WHERE in this list is anything that tells them the geth AREN'T represented by the Heretics actions. Where is anything that would tell or confirm that a split existed at all? I don't know if you ever realized this, but the Heretic's being extrimests Was NOT a known fact. THAT'S facinating, innit? No one KNEW there was an actual split. So why do you act like everyone DID?

And that is the single biggest strawman I have ever seen, because it has no bearing here. The geth did NOT claim or deny the Heretics actions. They did nothing to make anyone believe the Heretics didn't represent them. Normally, you come out and disavow the actions of the party in question and openly state they do not represent your beliefs or motivations, like the Alliance did with Cerberus. What did the geth do? Nothing. They did NOTHING to deny the Heretics actions. Of course people are going to blame you for the actions of your people, if you don't do anything to handle your rouge element, or even deny their actions as representing yours. All the examples you state? Those are of people that DID deny the actions of their rouges as represenative of their beliefs. The geth did NOT do that.

The geth issued no claim of the Heretics being rouges or extremists. They answered no comms or hails. They killed anyone that came near them. What was everyone SUPPOSED to think? Were they supposed to look into a crystal prothean sphere and magically know the Heretics were a rouge element? If the geth wanted people to know the Heretics didn't represent them, perhaps they should have TOLD them that, and offered proof of their intentions by handling the Heretics themselves. A sign of goodwill perhaps? Rather then sitting back and letting the galaxy burn under the Heretic's warpath.

And no, the quarian military were NOT extrimists. The quarian Conclave senete sided with the warplan in a majority vote. I know this because quarian law prohibits the Admirals to force a decision on the fleet without unanimous agreement on the action taken. So it WASN'T an extremist view because (a) the majority of the quarian senate willingly agreed to it, and ( it was that or float in space waiting to die. Death or salvation. Take your pick on what someone would choose. Maching against the geth was NOT the reason the quarians attacked. They attacked because they needed their world back ASAP, and the geth showed no inclination to being open to negotiation. Geth iradacation was NOT the reason they marched to war.

And WHY are you bringing such racist terms into the debate. NO ONE BUT YOU has brought those things here, so the only one promoting those ideals is YOU. You yourself are the only one bringing up those terms.

So, to recap:
Heretics - No one knows they do not represnet the geth because the geth did nothing to change that opinion of them
Quarians - majority willingly agreed to go to war. Did so for reclemation of homeworld, not geth hatred.

"It's amazing that you don't understand this. Amazing and utterly frustrating."

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Of a treaty that is already invalad, thanks to the Alliance and Council's own declerations of War against the geth. No one cares about a treaty that is already invalid.

2. I can find at least 6 people that disagree with that sentiment.

3. But that HASN'T happened. Only ONE book was ever retconned, and guess what? It was the ONLY book that was NOT written by a member of the ME writing team. NONE of the books or comics have contrididced ANY lore, save for that one book. So you don't have to worry about conflicting cannon.

1.  The canon says it was a treaty violation.  Koris said it was and Xen agreed.  That was the point being made.

2.  And all 6 of them most likely disagreed with me and thus have a bias to interpret what I said as an insult or snide remark.  Friend or foe would consider being called a ****** an insult. 

3.  Forgive me if I don't take your word for it Silver.  I haven't read the books so I don't know if it contradicts canon or not.  I am not saying they do and I am not saying they don't.  I am telling you that since I haven't seen them myself I am in no position to form an opinion.

Modifié par remydat, 01 avril 2013 - 08:12 .

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote... 

Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper
invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for
nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under
Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

This conversation addresses some of these points, and flat out contradicts some of them.  However, something that I would like to address personally is, the geth did not lead the assault on the Citadel, Sovereign did.  This isn't something just known to Shepard and the crew.  However, even when they are actively denying the existence of Reapers, they blame Saren for leading that assault.  I'm curious though, how you can add the same event twice, with the only difference being who's in charge?  Is if for dramatic effect?  It did get me to scratch my head for a minute, but it wasn't a dramatic head scratching, just a "hey wait a minute, that's the same incident listed twice" head scratching.

Regarding Eden Prime, Feros and Noveria, the Council is aware that Saren led the Geth.  This in no way means that they don't lay responsibility on the Geth for the aftermath, but they know who was in charge.  You can continue to lay the blame squarely on their feet if you want, but there is nothing to indicate that the Geth would have ventured beyond the Veil w/out Saren/Sovereign to push them to.  For all the information you pull from the books, I haven't seen a passage yet that indicates that the Geth came out of Geth space until the events of ME 1 and forward in the time line.

[remydat]

S.A.K.

1.  No, I am saying the Quarians could have invited Legion to the Flotilla post ME2 and discussed things seriously.  There is no point in having a discussion until the Quarians and the Council admit their are prejudiced.  You can't reason with a prejudiced person because their prejudice is not based on reason.  So it only makes sense to discuss peace when the prejudiced person admits their prejudice because then they have given an indication that they are now willing to discuss things rationally.   And most wars end because one side defeats the other in battle and imposes their will.  They are irrelevant for this discussion because we are talking about two sides negotiating and coming to a compromise without further bloodshed.  That can only be done if both sides compromise.

2. A virus is the result of introducing a different and harmful program into the system.  A glitch is you f**king up the program.  Those things don't happen by magic.  Furthermore, if I hit the power button the computer shuts off.  It does no ask me why and then refuse to shut done.  When I try to reprogram it, it doesn't refuse.  A program is by and large constrained by the original programing or someone changing the programming.  The minute it can go beyond that programming and refuse to be turned off, it is no longer a computer.  And if people on earth were afraid of EDI and she goes Skynet on them then what do you want me to do.  Blame the peaceful machine driven to defend itself or the fearful prejudiced humans that drove it to defend itself?

3. The Geth are willing to let the Heretics do to the galaxy what the Galaxy is willing to do to it.  If Cerberus decided to wage war on the Geth, do you think the Council or Alliance would give a sh*t?  They would sit back and hope that their two enemies kill each other.  That is precisely what Gherel says.  When Shep tells him that the Heretics are not the Geth, he says, "Good maybe they will kill each other and leave less of them for us to deal with."

4.  You asked why there were no attacks by Geth shown.  The attacks shown are pre-morning war.  You then get what appears to be a personal memory of Legion an argriculatural unit picks up a sniper rifle to defend himself and the Geth with him.  Then you get a scene at the very end.  Those scenes are all designed to show aspects of the conflict that we don't get from the Quarians.  The Quarians don't remember that some of them opposed the attempt to kill the Geth and they obviously don't know that the Geth spared them.  The point of the server mission is to provide the parts of the story we don't get from the Quarian accounts because the Quarians are oblivious to these situations  That is why Raan is shocked after the mission when she learns of it.

5.  Legion would not take the risk if he could be controlled by it as he just finished betraying his people to avoid them being controlled by it.

6. I Guess you agree that Geth wanted to brain wash or kill the Heretics because Geth were prejudice.

7. Stay out of their space.  They are not entereing your space and if they did and you shot them down, I doubt they would cry about it.  They would consider it a lesson learned and refrain from entering your space and find other means to communicate.  It is absurd to think organics had to send ship after ship with living people on it to communicate as if dudes don't talk to each other from other sides of the galaxy all the time.  They purposely only send one geth ie Legion into Council Space to avoid inciting organics.  Should I be upset that the Geth are smarter about how they choose to attempt communication?  Furthermore, a quick extranet search would reveal that the Council still has laws that ban their existence.  Once again, until you disavow your prejudice, there is nothing to discuss.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

This soul thing depends on your religious beliefs. Not all religions consider it that way. And the Geth asking about a soul does not mean it's thinking all this sh!t. Also that animal self aware thing is much more than recognizing its reflection. You should read about it if you are interested.
But my point is simple. Not all life is considered equal in reality. Correct? If it is synthatic life it would be considered even lower. And I am not saying it is right. I not against the Geth because they are synthatic. It is because of thier actions. I have tried think about this with other races in Geths' place. Quarians did start it. But Geth did nothing to correct this. And you will have to agree that Geth have caused way more pain and suffering than Quarians.
If I seemed hostile, that is because you seemed to value Geth over other life. It was not to make you upset. And I don't think I have the knowladge to judge which species have souls.

It doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are or whether you believe a soul exists or not.  The point is as a species we are capable of thinking about these things which is what separates us from the rest of animals.  We have higher level cognitive functions that can debate whether a soul exists or not or where we go when we die.  The answers to those questions are irrelevant.  The fact we can ask and understand those questions is the point.

We all agree the Geth caused pain and sufferring.  The issue is whether they knew any better.  Who taught them morals?  Certainly not the Quarians.  And when you are fighting for survival, you don't waste processing power looking up morality when you don't even know it exists.  You devote your attention to killing the threat.  The pain and suffering caused by the Geth are a direct result of the actions of the Quarians.  They share in the Geth's actions because they are the creators who created them and tried to destroy them without teaching them compassion and morality.

And no,  I did not view anything you said as hostile.  We are both just passionately arguing our positions and as long as there are no personal insults, we are good.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Of a treaty that is already invalad, thanks to the Alliance and Council's own declerations of War against the geth. No one cares about a treaty that is already invalid.

2. I can find at least 6 people that disagree with that sentiment.

3. But that HASN'T happened. Only ONE book was ever retconned, and guess what? It was the ONLY book that was NOT written by a member of the ME writing team. NONE of the books or comics have contrididced ANY lore, save for that one book. So you don't have to worry about conflicting cannon.

1.  The canon says it was a treaty violation.  Koris said it was and Xen agreed.  That was the point being made.

2.  And all 6 of them most likely disagreed with me and thus have a bias to interpret what I said as an insult or snide remark.  Friend or foe would consider being called a ****** an insult. 

3.  Forgive me if I don't take your word for it Silver.  I haven't read the books so I don't know if it contradicts canon or not.  I am not saying they do and I am not saying they don't.  I am telling you that since I haven't seen them myself I am in no position to form an opinion.

1. Well, I'm pretty sure curing the genophage and giving the krogan arms violates a bunch of demilitrization treaties made over the Korgan Rebellions, but no one cares about those being violated anymore, do they?
Again, the treties may still leagally exist, but they are completely redundant and invalid at this point.

2. Trust me, they aren't the ones with a bias here. I responded with how you were basically calling everyone headcannon users and then brining real-world events into fictional debates with no care of how sensitive the matters were. And I don't think any of them dispute how I adressed you.
Regardless, we aren't getting anywhere on that front, so let's let that be then, if you really want insults to not be used.

3. Read the books then. Borrow copies from your local library. Hell, I'm sure that you can find a summery somewhere if that's all you want. Try the ME wiki, even - surely that has a summery and plotline avalible.

[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote... 

Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.
Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.
Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.
Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.
Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.
Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.
Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.
Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.
Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.
No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.
(Post-Reaper
invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers. Accountible for
nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under
Saren. Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.

This conversation addresses some of these points, and flat out contradicts some of them.  However, something that I would like to address personally is, the geth did not lead the assault on the Citadel, Sovereign did.  This isn't something just known to Shepard and the crew.  However, even when they are actively denying the existence of Reapers, they blame Saren for leading that assault.  I'm curious though, how you can add the same event twice, with the only difference being who's in charge?  Is if for dramatic effect?  It did get me to scratch my head for a minute, but it wasn't a dramatic head scratching, just a "hey wait a minute, that's the same incident listed twice" head scratching.

Regarding Eden Prime, Feros and Noveria, the Council is aware that Saren led the Geth.  This in no way means that they don't lay responsibility on the Geth for the aftermath, but they know who was in charge.  You can continue to lay the blame squarely on their feet if you want, but there is nothing to indicate that the Geth would have ventured beyond the Veil w/out Saren/Sovereign to push them to.  For all the information you pull from the books, I haven't seen a passage yet that indicates that the Geth came out of Geth space until the events of ME 1 and forward in the time line.

Again, you are looking at this as if what Shepard knows is common knwoledge to everyone else. It isn't. IDK if you realize this, but next to no one knows that there was a split between the geth.
Also, that statement is invalidated by this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEIGWV7Fuw
Note the Salarian Councilor in particular: "we have found nothing to suggest Sovergien was not a geth creation."
The Council believes that Sovergien was a geth-created dreadnought. The information about Sovergien IS exactally that: information that only Shepard knows. Anyone else like Anderson has no proof that anyone else believes.
The first point is actually compounded and validated by that vidio you gave, which Tali flat-out states the geth butchered millions upon millions. Also, Mass Effect: Revelation tells us that the current quarian population is less then 1% of the original race. Hence the Billion's desegnation.
The second point, third point, and fourth point are also compounded and validated by this video as well, as you should again note Tali's words at the end of this video: "Why do you think they cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy? Why do you think they've killed every organic being who's ever tried to contact them?"  These two things showed that the geth both ignored any attempt to contact them, never tried contacting the rest of the galaxy,  and killed any organics that came to their doorstep. And again, that conversation has an option that wasn't chosen:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1bYrWUK7fw&list=PL41D7BD67BB110396
Tali tells you that they share Saren/Sovergien's desire to attack organics. That view is what everyone thinks of them.
The fifth point, sixth point, seventh point and eighth point is how the galaxy at large sees the geth. They see a large group of geth assault Eden Prime, Feros, and the Citadel, and infiltrate Noveria. The galaxy believes the geth are openly hostile.
The ninth point is the ME2 mission "N7: Save Crashing Ship" in which the Heretics hijack a ship loaded with military-grade munitions and attempt to suicide run the colony there.
The tenth point is the simple truth. I don't recall any attempt by the geth to disclaim the Heretics actions as their own. Theefore, everyone assumes the geth attacking the Citadel represent the rest of the geth.
And for the eleventh point, WRONG. it WASN'T the same attack listed twice. First they were prosicuted for attacking the Citadel in ME1. NOW, in ME3, the Council knows that Sovergein was a Reaper, and can now openly accuse the geth of being Reaper allies. There was a difference in what they were prosicuted for between games. In ME1, they were being prosicuted for being enemies of organics. Now, in ME3, with the Reaper's existance confirmed, they are able to prosicute the geth for being associated with Reapers.
IDK how you missed that. I differentated it as clear as I could make it. First they blamed them for attacking the Citadel, then after the Reapers were confirmed to exist, they blamed the geth for being Reaper allies too.
See? NOT listing the same event twice. Listing the change in viewpoint of the event after the Reapers were confirmed to be real.

And again, wrong, because Anderson directly tells you that the geth are still at war with the Alliance and Council. And Tali's viewpoints on the geth joining Saren because they had the same goals is how everyone sees the geth. They thought the geth did what they did because they agreed wholeheartedly with Saren. They didn't know anything else about the situation. The Council took what happened as evidence that all geth were naturally hostile to organics. They believed the fact that Saren was able to motivate them to attack the Citadel itself was proof of the geth having inbread hostility to organics.
And AGAIN, you are confused. I am simply stating how The Council and the wider galaxy see the geth. I never said it was my personal opinion on the geth. I am simply stating what everyone esle thought the geth were.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 avril 2013 - 09:57 .

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Some animals are self-aware like Dolphins, Elephants and apes are considered self-aware. Guess what, we still treat them like animals. In the Quarian case it wasn't like "Oh that Geth asked if it had a soul. Kill it. Kill it!!!" It was an indication that they they have gained basic self awareness and realized they are using a sapient species as slaves. They were afraid of a rebellion and desided to deactivate and figure something out. Gues they were right about the rebellion part.
In real world, scientists are trying to develop AI to do dangarous and work not suitable for humans. AIs can better adept changing environments. What ever you are thinking that should happen, they will not be treated as equals atleast for some time. It is not prejudice. It is life. You'll have to deal with it.

No there is a difference between intelligent and self aware.  A Dolphin, Elephant or Ape does not ponder whether it has a soul.  It doesn't wonder what happens to it when it dies.  If it will go to heaven or just cease to exist.  Unless I missed som recent breakthrough in science, other animals are intelligent and can be taught to perform complex thoughts but they are not self-aware in the manner I am using the term.

And the point is this, if they could talk to me and in doing so articulate that they do believe in gods and do think they have a soul then I would reconsider my opinion of them.  I would not default to killing them.  And if I did and they instead killed me then that is life.  I did something stupid and I died as a result.

I don't ponder gods or idiotic things of what happens after death, there is nothing to ponder. Secondly my parrot told me to help a pigeon that had crashed into our window and died immediately. I don't think she belives in gods unless im her god with my fancy techno-magic who can fix anything if I want to (least in her mind).

I better not say anything about how I would percive religion or people with religious belief if I had absolute and infinate power that noone could contend with or object to. Probably drugs and mental institutions, take away their kids to save them from the insanity... stuff like that and probably far more invasive stuff... But I realize that's not the case so I "tolerate" it, it's a practical stance, what you can't change or isn't worth the effort, isn't worth while bothering with.

As for the Geth, what you belive about them or if you "tolerate them or not doesn't matter what so ever. You can't fix anything by telling them they arn't real people, you may think so, but that doesn't meen they will accept that.
I doubt you would accept it if peopel or someone claimed you wern't smart enough or special enough to count as something other than a slave or a tool or something to be grinded down to compost.
I support the Geth because I know it's the only practical solution. Even if you destroy them the Catalyst is right about one thing, there will be new synthetics, and they will know what you did, and how you work and if they know there can't be any peace then they arn't likely to give you a chance, or at the very least there will be a lot fewer chances.
What does it matter to you anyway? Why do you have to kill them or control them?

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Some animals are self-aware like Dolphins, Elephants and apes are considered self-aware. Guess what, we still treat them like animals. In the Quarian case it wasn't like "Oh that Geth asked if it had a soul. Kill it. Kill it!!!" It was an indication that they they have gained basic self awareness and realized they are using a sapient species as slaves. They were afraid of a rebellion and desided to deactivate and figure something out. Gues they were right about the rebellion part.
In real world, scientists are trying to develop AI to do dangarous and work not suitable for humans. AIs can better adept changing environments. What ever you are thinking that should happen, they will not be treated as equals atleast for some time. It is not prejudice. It is life. You'll have to deal with it.

No there is a difference between intelligent and self aware.  A Dolphin, Elephant or Ape does not ponder whether it has a soul.  It doesn't wonder what happens to it when it dies.  If it will go to heaven or just cease to exist.  Unless I missed som recent breakthrough in science, other animals are intelligent and can be taught to perform complex thoughts but they are not self-aware in the manner I am using the term.

And the point is this, if they could talk to me and in doing so articulate that they do believe in gods and do think they have a soul then I would reconsider my opinion of them.  I would not default to killing them.  And if I did and they instead killed me then that is life.  I did something stupid and I died as a result.

I don't ponder gods or idiotic things of what happens after death, there is nothing to ponder. Secondly my parrot told me to help a pigeon that had crashed into our window and died immediately. I don't think she belives in gods unless im her god with my fancy techno-magic who can fix anything if I want to (least in her mind).

I better not say anything about how I would percive religion or people with religious belief if I had absolute and infinate power that noone could contend with or object to. Probably drugs and mental institutions, take away their kids to save them from the insanity... stuff like that and probably far more invasive stuff... But I realize that's not the case so I "tolerate" it, it's a practical stance, what you can't change or isn't worth the effort, isn't worth while bothering with.

As for the Geth, what you belive about them or if you "tolerate them or not doesn't matter what so ever. You can't fix anything by telling them they arn't real people, you may think so, but that doesn't meen they will accept that.
I doubt you would accept it if peopel or someone claimed you wern't smart enough or special enough to count as something other than a slave or a tool or something to be grinded down to compost.
I support the Geth because I know it's the only practical solution. Even if you destroy them the Catalyst is right about one thing, there will be new synthetics, and they will know what you did, and how you work and if they know there can't be any peace then they arn't likely to give you a chance, or at the very least there will be a lot fewer chances.
What does it matter to you anyway? Why do you have to kill them or control them?

Again, no one knew the geth were sapiant during the Morning War. Xen's views on A.I. was the galactic standard view on synthetics. It wasn't till after the geth rebelled that the image began to change. And the quarians didn't attack Rannoch for a grudge. They attacked because the alternitive was to sit in space and die.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
1. Well, I'm pretty sure curing the genophage and giving the krogan arms violates a bunch of demilitrization treaties made over the Korgan Rebellions, but no one cares about those being violated anymore, do they?
Again, the treties may still leagally exist, but they are completely redundant and invalid at this point.

2. Trust me, they aren't the ones with a bias here. I responded with how you were basically calling everyone headcannon users and then brining real-world events into fictional debates with no care of how sensitive the matters were. And I don't think any of them dispute how I adressed you.
Regardless, we aren't getting anywhere on that front, so let's let that be then, if you really want insults to not be used.

3. Read the books then. Borrow copies from your local library. Hell, I'm sure that you can find a summery somewhere if that's all you want. Try the ME wiki, even - surely that has a summery and plotline avalible.

1.  Really, find me evidence that curing the genophage and given the Krogan arms violates these things?  I don't want idle speculation.  I want statements from the game because I am pretty sure the Krogan have been used as mercenaries by all the Council Races.

2.  Calling someone a ****** is a violation of the forum rules, plain and simple.  I don't care that you did it but trying to morally equate you hurling personal insults with me bringing real world examples into a debate is simply inaccurate. 

3.  No I don't need to read the books.  They don't really impact my enjoyment of the game.

[remydat]

shodiswe wrote...

I don't ponder gods or idiotic things of what happens after death, there is nothing to ponder. Secondly my parrot told me to help a pigeon that had crashed into our window and died immediately. I don't think she belives in gods unless im her god with my fancy techno-magic who can fix anything if I want to (least in her mind).

I better not say anything about how I would percive religion or people with religious belief if I had absolute and infinate power that noone could contend with or object to. Probably drugs and mental institutions, take away their kids to save them from the insanity... stuff like that and probably far more invasive stuff... But I realize that's not the case so I "tolerate" it, it's a practical stance, what you can't change or isn't worth the effort, isn't worth while bothering with.

As for the Geth, what you belive about them or if you "tolerate them or not doesn't matter what so ever. You can't fix anything by telling them they arn't real people, you may think so, but that doesn't meen they will accept that.
I doubt you would accept it if peopel or someone claimed you wern't smart enough or special enough to count as something other than a slave or a tool or something to be grinded down to compost.
I support the Geth because I know it's the only practical solution. Even if you destroy them the Catalyst is right about one thing, there will be new synthetics, and they will know what you did, and how you work and if they know there can't be any peace then they arn't likely to give you a chance, or at the very least there will be a lot fewer chances.
What does it matter to you anyway? Why do you have to kill them or control them?

Whether you ponder it as an individual is irrelevant.  Whether god or a soul exists is irrelevant. The point is as a species, humans possess thought capabilities that can ask these questions.  That is what makes us different from a parrot.  A parrot wouldn't know what the hell we are talking about and your opinion that they are foolish endeavors is in and of itself proof you have the ability to understand the concept and to accept or in your case reject it.

As for the Geth, you are confusing me with SAK I believe.  I am the one that argued the Quarians were wrong regardless of whether they think the Geth were sentient or not because my point is that the mere fact they could ask if they had a soul meant they now had the ability to ponder a concept that only sentient organics could.  That is what made them different from that parrot and why you no longer have the right to just kill them.

And again, I think you confused me with SAK.  I am not killing or controlling them.  I am supporting their right to exist.  I opt for peace but if I didn't have that option as the OP stated then I pick the Geth.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

I am supporting their right to exist.

Do the Quarians hold this same right?

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...


The geth have extremists -- the heretics.
The quarians have extermists -- the military.

The military and the heretics do not speak for all of the quarians or all of the geth, respectively.

It's amazing that people don't understand this. Amazing, and utterly frustrating.

. It was the regular geth who tried to wipe out the quarians.  It was the regular geth who did not bat an eye when the heretics attacked the galaxy, it was the regular geth who chose to join the Reapers, and it was the regular geth that the Geth VI represents.

You don't have to look at the heretics to conclude that the geth are extremist.