4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

I am supporting their right to exist.

Do the Quarians hold this same right?

. Of course not!  How dare they hate the machines who tried to wipe them out!  The machines who allied with the Reapers, and e machines who want nothing but their extermination!  Blasphemy I say.

[DeinonSlayer]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Hazegurl

Frustrating, innit?

The part that depresses me the most about this thread is that despite all the lessons taught to us by reality over the history of our species, there are still some people who can't separate extremists from the populace. Like I said, blaming the geth for the actions of the heretics is like blaming the Irish for the actions of the IRA.

What so many people refuse to understand is that the heretics are basically the geth version of extremists and, if I must use the word, terrorists. That word people seem to understand. The problem there though is that you then have people who believe that all of a certain ethnicity or species are terrorists, rather than just one extremist group. I say this as a Welsh person, and to my knowledge, the Welsh haven't had any extremist groups (so I'm not defending myself, here).

It's also like blaming all Americans for the actions of American white supremacist extremists against other ethnicities. I don't do that. That's stupid. Furthermore, that just increases hate and it's playing into their hands. When an extremist group has gotten you thinking in black and white terms, they've won, because the next step then is war. And that's what extremists pretty much tend to want -- the eradication of their enemies.

The geth have extremists -- the heretics.
The quarians have extermists -- the military.

The military and the heretics do not speak for all of the quarians or all of the geth, respectively.

It's amazing that people don't understand this. Amazing, and utterly frustrating.

I deconstructed this entire argument several pages back. I guess you must have missed it.

The frustration is yours, and yours alone. You insist on seeing your opposition in a certain way (we're all haters, racists, blah blah blah), and refuse to hear the arguments being presented. The problem here isn't that we have a problem we somehow refuse to recognize. The problem is that you have failed to understand our position. It isn't the shallow racism you want it to be. We're discussing the actual reasoning which would have motivated both sides to take the actions they did, and the information they had and didn't have which influenced that reasoning.

You have consistently stamped the Quarian military as extremists. Lest it need to be mentioned again, Koris is military. Kal'Reegar is military. Are they extremists? No? Then please, stop branding the entire group that way.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 01:36 .

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Do the Quarians hold this same right?

Yes they do.  However, if I am forced to choose who is at fault between the aggressor who tried to exterminate a race and that race who responded by wiping the floor with them, I choose the aggressor. 

Don't start no sh*t won't be no sh*t.  My dad taught me when I was 5 years old, don't pick fights you can't win because if you get beat down as a result, no one is going to feel sorry for you.

Steelcan wrote...

Of course not!  How dare they hate the machines who tried to wipe them out!  The machines who allied with the Reapers, and e machines who want nothing but their extermination!  Blasphemy I say.

No, it's how dare they try and wipe a race from existence because they themselves f**ked up and then spend 300 years crying about getting their a** handed to them only to then try and wipe that race from existence a second time admist a potential galactic apocalypse and in doing so create more enemies I have to fight.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 12:25 .

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...

Probably the way the thing was designed. I don't think any other cycle actually considered the possibility that organics and synthetics would co-habitate. They probably saw the Reapers as proof that synthetics are bad, so created the Crucible to spicifically kill synthetics.
IDK where the Control or Synthesis options came from. I think the Catalyst created those.
Also, I'm not sure on the Synthesis being better. Killing advancement picemeal by destroying all limitation seems like a bad idea. Mordin tells you that culture needs limitations to advance past and adapt to, and that if you remove those limitations, cultural development will stagnate. He also talks on how giving a culture technology it's not ready for can be just as devastating. Synthesis seems to be the worst case senerio - killing cultural advancement and giving tech no one is ready for.

Yeah, I think starkid also tampered with the destory option to include all synthetics. It's like he was taking hostages or something. "Kill us and your friends go too." I really hate that little shyt.  While I do find Remy's views on synthesis to be pretty good, I also see it as halting evolution. What makes evolution so fascinating is the unpredictablity of it. We can develop in ways we've never thought possible, Synthesis is just one possible evolutionary path not end game as starkid claims. We should be free to develop however we all see fit regardless of the aches and pains and war, that goes for both organics and synthetics. I would never choose the green stream but I do like hearing other views about it. Especially if they bring up something I've never thought about.

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Hazegurl

Frustrating, innit?

The
part that depresses me the most about this thread is that despite all
the lessons taught to us by reality over the history of our species,
there are still some people who can't separate extremists from the populace. Like I said, blaming the geth for the actions of the heretics is like blaming the Irish for the actions of the IRA.

Nothing wrong with a good debate.

You're right, there is a difference between extremists and the general  population. All Germans are not ****s. I don't see why the Geth should be blamed as a whole due to the actions of a bunch of Heretics. I won't blame the entire Quarian population for idiots like Gerrel. It's just sad that they made him their leader and the other Admirals can't or won't do something about him before he kills his whole race. 

Modifié par Hazegurl, 02 avril 2013 - 12:27 .

[DeinonSlayer]

tevix wrote...

@Silver

Like I said, all I ask is they attempt diplomatic contact. Doesn't have to be with two armed ships next to each other. Some comm traffic back and forth would do the trick. If they are denied, then I would support the attack.

The geth (or legion rather) say that they need to see a desire to cooperate from the quarians. I would say a sincere "Hey, we're really f---ed out here without our home. Can we work something out?" during a reaper invasion is a huge step forward. If the geth go pfft, screw you your on your own that's condemning them to death, and I won't condone that.

I, personally, haven't had a playthrough where I brought Legion to Tali's trial. If Legion isn't there, and you talk to Gerrel, there's a part where you can try to dissuade him from attacking (something along the lines of "I hope the Quarians find a place to live, but it sounds like you're playing with fire"). This launches into a brief back-and-forth, with Tali saying that they'll need the fleet to fight the Reapers, and Gerrel responding that they'll need a planet to shelter their noncombatants while they do it. Does Gerrel mention this if Legion is present? I remember you talking about that before, Tevix - you said Legion basically blew off the idea (I believe your exact words describing it were "get on your knees and beg").

Anyway, this occurred to me earlier today: Legion stopped communicating with the Quarians before they attacked, with a final message to Tali simply saying the Geth were unable to reach consensus, without specifying what about. Legion sent that message, and stopped communicating. At that point, negotiation was no longer possible because one party left the table. Tali, in hindsight, speculates that Legion stopped talking because he was resisting the Reaper takeover.

There were necessary hardware preparations before the Geth could accept the Reaper code which would need to be made, if only to keep the option of accepting the code open. If someone is thinking about getting a resource-intensive computer game, they may well purchase and install the hardware (graphics card, etc.) to make it possible to run it without actually buying the game in the end. Simply keeping options open.

That reaper tech on the dreadnought came from somewhere. It's entirely possible Legion stopped responding because the rest of the Geth locked him up in that device (the network card, in this case, for a game they weren't sure they wanted to buy). This leaves us the question of how the Quarians got as far as they did, but even that is easily answered - even if the Geth asked for it early, the reaper could simply withhold the code until the Quarians were conveniently gathered up in the Tikkun system - right where the reaper wanted them.

I am not stating any of the above definitively. We have little information about the goings-on inside the Perseus Veil before the Quarians launched their attack; I am simply trying to construct plausible scenarios. I welcome scrutiny of the idea.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 01:04 .

[Steelcan]

. Because the quarians had so many options besides attacking the geth?  

Modifié par Steelcan, 02 avril 2013 - 12:31 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

Because the quarians had so many options besides attacking the geth?

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 12:34 .

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

Yeah, I think starkid also tampered with the destory option to include all synthetics. It's like he was taking hostages or something. "Kill us and your friends go too." I really hate that little shyt.  While I do find Remy's views on synthesis to be pretty good, I also see it as halting evolution. What makes evolution so fascinating is the unpredictablity of it. We can develop in ways we've never thought possible, Synthesis is just one possible evolutionary path not end game as starkid claims. We should be free to develop however we all see fit regardless of the aches and pains and war, that goes for both organics and synthetics. I would never choose the green stream but I do like hearing other views about it. Especially if they bring up something I've never thought about.

I said this in another thread but synthesis as it is depicted cannot halt evolution.  Evolution or more precisely natural selection ie the process by which evolution is achieved is largely the result of errors in the replication or reproduction process.  When organics replicate themselves the process results in random errors/mutations.

So as long as in a post synthesis world, reproduction still occurs, natural selection must still occur.  Further, the thing that drives natural selection is our genes/DNA.  Since all the different organics kept their DNA (otherwise they would look the same post synthesis), you still have Krogan, Asara, Salarian, Human, Turian, etc. DNA so you still have genetic variation that is required for natural selection.

So what Star Kid probably meant is when he said the hybrid represents the final evolution is the final cross species evolution ie the ability of evolution to result in a reptile evolving into a bird, a bird evolving into a mammal and an ape evolving into man.  If he saw that the human DNA's final evolution was to combine with synthetic material to create a hybrid then yes that is the final path.  However, once you reach that final path, you still have intra-species evolution ie the evolution that does not result in animals evolving into different animals but that results in the same animal continue to evolve within it's own species.  As I said above, that process has to continue unless reproduction ends or synthesis resulted in perfect replication which could only happen if everyone sexual reproduction led to clones being born ie people with identical DNA  and genes of their parents which seems unlikely.

[Steelcan]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because the quarians had so many options besides attacking the geth?

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

. But the cuddly geth?

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because the quarians had so many options besides attacking the geth?

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

. But the cuddly geth?

They had reasons of their own, and chose their own path. It's up to us to judge the merits of both sides.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

The Reapers have no logical interest in chasing down a mobile fleet just so they can harvest 17 million people.  That wouldn't even be considered a light snack.

The Reapers are focused on harvesting immobile planets with billions of people on them.  It is effective because the planet can't run away from them indefinitely and it is efficient because the yield in doing so is billions instead of millions.

The Quarians have no logical reason to do anything but run if they encounter a Reaper as they have no planet they are bound to protect.  They should have been employing Guerilla Warfare ie stay mobille and only attack the enemy when it is to your advantage.  That is the strategic benefit they could have provided since they don't have a an immobile planet to protect.  That is the strategy people have used against a superior force since man first started waging war with each other.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 12:43 .

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

The Reapers have no logical interest in chasing down a mobile fleet just so they can harvest 17 million people.  That wouldn't even be considered a light snack.

The Reapers are focused on harvesting immobile planets with billions of people on them.  It is effective because the planet can't run away from them indefinitely and it is efficient because the yield in doing so is billions instead of millions.

. Who said anything about harvesting?  The reapers could target the, because of their powerful fleet

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

The Reapers have no logical interest in chasing down a mobile fleet just so they can harvest 17 million people.  That wouldn't even be considered a light snack.

The Reapers are focused on harvesting immobile planets with billions of people on them.  It is effective because the planet can't run away from them indefinitely and it is efficient because the yield in doing so is billions instead of millions.

The Reapers are destroying minor mining colonies left and right (it's in numerous planet descriptions). Any population too small to bother harvesting is simply erased from orbit (ie Klencory). There's no reason for the Quarians to believe they won't be targeted - to rest one's hopes on denial that they'll be attacked by the galaxy-killing cuttlefish from beyond the fade is fatally naive. They're a significant asset to the war effort (one of the largest, in fact) once they alleviate themselves of the civilians filling their holds. If the Reapers go out of their way to destroy a particle accelerator in Asari space, why would they pass up a fleet of fifty thousand ships?

The way things work out, the Reapers bag the largest synthetic and organic fleets in the galaxy at the same time.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 12:47 .

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

Who said anything about harvesting?  The reapers could target the, because of their powerful fleet

It still makes no sense.  They have to go find them and the Geth could simply run away.  Who wants to devote resources running around the galaxy chase the Quarians.  It wastes energy and resources and the Quarians are only obliged to attack when they want to ie when they set up an ambush.

This is basic guerilla warfare.  The only reason other races can't do it is because they have planets and billions of people to protect.  

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
1. Well, I'm pretty sure curing the genophage and giving the krogan arms violates a bunch of demilitrization treaties made over the Korgan Rebellions, but no one cares about those being violated anymore, do they?
Again, the treties may still leagally exist, but they are completely redundant and invalid at this point.

2. Trust me, they aren't the ones with a bias here. I responded with how you were basically calling everyone headcannon users and then brining real-world events into fictional debates with no care of how sensitive the matters were. And I don't think any of them dispute how I adressed you.
Regardless, we aren't getting anywhere on that front, so let's let that be then, if you really want insults to not be used.

3. Read the books then. Borrow copies from your local library. Hell, I'm sure that you can find a summery somewhere if that's all you want. Try the ME wiki, even - surely that has a summery and plotline avalible.

1.  Really, find me evidence that curing the genophage and given the Krogan arms violates these things?  I don't want idle speculation.  I want statements from the game because I am pretty sure the Krogan have been used as mercenaries by all the Council Races.

2.  Calling someone a ****** is a violation of the forum rules, plain and simple.  I don't care that you did it but trying to morally equate you hurling personal insults with me bringing real world examples into a debate is simply inaccurate. 

3.  No I don't need to read the books.  They don't really impact my enjoyment of the game.

1. Krogan DMZ (demilitrized zone), Dranek system, Dor. Planatary discription says that arming the krogan with weapons of war is a capital offence, punishible by death. Even 1,000 years after the rebellions, the offical punsihment for arming the krogan with weapons of war is death by spacing. Yet arming them with weapons of war is exactally what the Turians do in the Reaper War.  Tampering with the genophage is illegal by Council law, yet the genophage cure is exactally that. Even the anti A.I. law is ignored now, as the Alliance replicates the Eva mech recovered by Shepard on Mars to create multiple unshakled A.I. infiltrator units. (The Alliance Infiltrator Unit character avalible in multiplayer). Law regarding prothean ruins and their recovery and preservation are disregarded in favor of helping construct the Crucible. WMDs are rolled out en masse and allowed use by the Blood Pack, the terminus fleets, and so-forth. Hell, even destroying Mass Relays is put forth for consideration by the batarians and a few others, and the only reason it's turned down is because of the colatoral damage possible.
As you can see, no one is really paying attention to the rules anymore. Especally ones that have been rendered redundant, either now or before now.

2. Not from what I've seen. And again, did't you want to let it go? You are the only one continuing it now.

3. The source of Cerberus "instant army-in-a-can" implants are explained. As well as where Kai Leng and Kahlee Sanders came into the story. The entire tale of why the quarians hate Cerberus is explained as well, as well as the first glimpses of the Collectors.  The books/comics substantially expand the lore. Also, it could put you at a disadvantage in a debate when you make a point that is countered by lore in the EU.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Reapers are destroying minor mining colonies left and right (it's in numerous planet descriptions). Any population too small to bother harvesting is simply erased from orbit. There's no reason for the Quarians to believe they won't be targeted - to rest one's hopes on denial that they'll be attacked by the galaxy-killing cuttlefish from beyond the fade is fatally naive. They're a significant asset to the war effort (one of the largest, in fact) once they alleviate themselves of the civilians filling their holds. If the Reapers go out of their way to destroy a particle accelerator in Asari space, why would they pass up a fleet of fifty thousand ships?

The way things work out, the Reapers bag the largest synthetic and organic fleets in the galaxy at the same time.

Once again, a planet can't run.  A mining colony can't run.  Ships equipped with FTL travel can run.  You run and hide and only come out to fight when it is advantageous to you.  That is how guerilla warfare works and that is what the Quarians are uniquely suited to do.

There is a reason why superior forces in Afghanistan or Vietnam struggled to win those wars.  The enemy simply kept avoiding direct combat with them unless they were in an advantageous position.

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Who said anything about harvesting?  The reapers could target the, because of their powerful fleet

It still makes no sense.  They have to go find them and the Geth could simply run away.  Who wants to devote resources running around the galaxy chase the Quarians.  It wastes energy and resources and the Quarians are only obliged to attack when they want to ie when they set up an ambush.

This is basic guerilla warfare.  The only reason other races can't do it is because they have planets and billions of people to protect.  

. It makes no sense?  Why on Earth would the reapers attack the largest fleet in the galaxy?  

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Reapers are destroying minor mining colonies left and right (it's in numerous planet descriptions). Any population too small to bother harvesting is simply erased from orbit. There's no reason for the Quarians to believe they won't be targeted - to rest one's hopes on denial that they'll be attacked by the galaxy-killing cuttlefish from beyond the fade is fatally naive. They're a significant asset to the war effort (one of the largest, in fact) once they alleviate themselves of the civilians filling their holds. If the Reapers go out of their way to destroy a particle accelerator in Asari space, why would they pass up a fleet of fifty thousand ships?

The way things work out, the Reapers bag the largest synthetic and organic fleets in the galaxy at the same time.

Once again, a planet can't run.  A mining colony can't run.  Ships equipped with FTL travel can run.  You run and hide and only come out to fight when it is advantageous to you.  That is how guerilla warfare works and that is what the Quarians are uniquely suited to do.

There is a reason why superior forces in Afghanistan or Vietnam struggled to win those wars.  The enemy simply kept avoiding direct combat with them unless they were in an advantageous position.

Blockade the relay of whatever system they're in, and their only options are to fight and be annihilated, or run out-system until they run out of fuel and wait to be picked off. That's how the Reapers always won in previous cycles, and it's what they have their Geth thralls do in ME3.

Besides, the Quarian Migrant Fleet takes days to traverse a relay. They're not exactly mobile. If the Reapers have any way of tracking relay traffic at all (which makes sense - it would tell them which systems have spacefaring life, and where it has spread), a 50,000-ship fleet will not go unnoticed.

The Quarians' strength is not combat. It's logistical support. A fleet of refurbished tugs and freighters packed with civilians (and with a serious shortage of escape pods on account of overcrowding) is not going to be staging guerilla raids on Reapers (who have no supply lines to attack) when every ship in the fleet has to stay within shuttle range of the liveships to keep fed. The word "guerilla" doesn't appear once with any of the Quarian war assets.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Koris' stated alternative to war in ME3 (choose "The Quarians were wrong," followed by "I disagree" upon meeting the admirals to hear it) was to continue surviving in the fleet - which isn't an alternative. It's a state in which the Quarians are unable to aid the rest of the galaxy, and in which an encounter with a single Reaper would spell the death of their entire race. As long as they're living in space, a couple of well-placed thanix shots targeting the liveships would mean the entire species will starve to death.

The Reapers have no logical interest in chasing down a mobile fleet just so they can harvest 17 million people.  That wouldn't even be considered a light snack.

The Reapers are focused on harvesting immobile planets with billions of people on them.  It is effective because the planet can't run away from them indefinitely and it is efficient because the yield in doing so is billions instead of millions.

The Quarians have no logical reason to do anything but run if they encounter a Reaper as they have no planet they are bound to protect.  They should have been employing Guerilla Warfare ie stay mobille and only attack the enemy when it is to your advantage.  That is the strategic benefit they could have provided since they don't have a an immobile planet to protect.  That is the strategy people have used against a superior force since man first started waging war with each other.

The Reapers stated "mission" is to harvest every race in the galaxy. Galactic Codex reveals that upon examination, Destroyers appear to be created from the races that aren't havrested to create the Sovergien-class Reapers. Only the race with the highest genetic diversity is selected to be a Sovergien-class Reaper. It takes several million to create a Sovergien-class Reaper. The outer Reaper is just a shell. The actual synthesized being is contained within the cheplopod-like shell. The inner being is smaller, and is speculated to take several million to create. The smaller Destroyer is only 160 meters high, with the core being likely smaller and contained inside the shell of the outer being. So It would take much less to create a Destroyer out of quarians then a Sovergien-class. They could make a quarian-based Reaper Destroyer easily.
In other words, think of them as "compulsive eaters." The only race I'm sceptical they could harvest is the drell, who only number about 300,000.

And look how well those plantes are doing comapred to the space fleets. Earth is still standing 6 months after teh invasion. Palaven and Thessia are still holding. The  Reapers are noted to have much more trouble in ground battles compared to space battles.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 avril 2013 - 01:01 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Krogan DMZ (demilitrized zone), Dranek system, Dor. Planatary discription says that arming the krogan with weapons of war is a capital offence, punishible by death. Even 1,000 years after the rebellions, the offical punsihment for arming the krogan with weapons of war is death by spacing. Yet arming them with weapons of war is exactally what the Turians do in the Reaper War.  Tampering with the genophage is illegal by Council law, yet the genophage cure is exactally that. Even the anti A.I. law is ignored now, as the Alliance replicates the Eva mech recovered by Shepard on Mars to create multiple unshakled A.I. infiltrator units. (The Alliance Infiltrator Unit character avalible in multiplayer). Law regarding prothean ruins and their recovery and preservation are disregarded in favor of helping construct the Crucible. WMDs are rolled out en masse and allowed use by the Blood Pack, the terminus fleets, and so-forth. Hell, even destroying Mass Relays is put forth for consideration by the batarians and a few others, and the only reason it's turned down is because of the colatoral damage possible.
As you can see, no one is really paying attention to the rules anymore. Especally ones that have been rendered redundant, either now or before now.

2. Not from what I've seen. And again, did't you want to let it go? You are the only one continuing it now.

3. The source of Cerberus "instant army-in-a-can" implants are explained. As well as where Kai Leng and Kahlee Sanders came into the story. The entire tale of why the quarians hate Cerberus is explained as well, as well as the first glimpses of the Collectors.  The books/comics substantially expand the lore. Also, it could put you at a disadvantage in a debate when you make a point that is countered by lore in the EU.

1.  Sorry I think you misunderstand, show me where the Salarians or the Asari claim to the Turians they can't arm the Krogan or cure the genophage because it is against Council Law.  They resit it but at no point in resisting it do they claim the Turians are violating council law.  Xen and Koris straight say they violated a treaty.  No one claims as far as I know that the Turians ie a council race is violating the law by enlisting the Krogan to save them.

2.  Nope I am correcting the record.  You tried to claim my statements were the same as you calling me a ****** and they are not.

3.  None of which I care much about.  I can read Kai Leng's history in the game from Anderson or Liara's Shadow Broker Terminal or his Codex.  I can learn about Kahlee and Anderson from both of them in game and from the Citadel DLC where Traynor notes that Kahlee has good taste in bath products which tells me all I need to know, lol.  Point is I don't need to read the books.  You are obviously free to enjoy them.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Krogan DMZ (demilitrized zone), Dranek system, Dor. Planatary discription says that arming the krogan with weapons of war is a capital offence, punishible by death. Even 1,000 years after the rebellions, the offical punsihment for arming the krogan with weapons of war is death by spacing. Yet arming them with weapons of war is exactally what the Turians do in the Reaper War.  Tampering with the genophage is illegal by Council law, yet the genophage cure is exactally that. Even the anti A.I. law is ignored now, as the Alliance replicates the Eva mech recovered by Shepard on Mars to create multiple unshakled A.I. infiltrator units. (The Alliance Infiltrator Unit character avalible in multiplayer). Law regarding prothean ruins and their recovery and preservation are disregarded in favor of helping construct the Crucible. WMDs are rolled out en masse and allowed use by the Blood Pack, the terminus fleets, and so-forth. Hell, even destroying Mass Relays is put forth for consideration by the batarians and a few others, and the only reason it's turned down is because of the colatoral damage possible.
As you can see, no one is really paying attention to the rules anymore. Especally ones that have been rendered redundant, either now or before now.

2. Not from what I've seen. And again, did't you want to let it go? You are the only one continuing it now.

3. The source of Cerberus "instant army-in-a-can" implants are explained. As well as where Kai Leng and Kahlee Sanders came into the story. The entire tale of why the quarians hate Cerberus is explained as well, as well as the first glimpses of the Collectors.  The books/comics substantially expand the lore. Also, it could put you at a disadvantage in a debate when you make a point that is countered by lore in the EU.

1.  Sorry I think you misunderstand, show me where the Salarians or the Asari claim to the Turians they can't arm the Krogan or cure the genophage because it is against Council Law.  They resit it but at no point in resisting it do they claim the Turians are violating council law.  Xen and Koris straight say they violated a treaty.  No one claims as far as I know that the Turians ie a council race is violating the law by enlisting the Krogan to save them.

2.  Nope I am correcting the record.  You tried to claim my statements were the same as you calling me a ****** and they are not.

3.  None of which I care much about.  I can read Kai Leng's history in the game from Anderson or Liara's Shadow Broker Terminal or his Codex.  I can learn about Kahlee and Anderson from both of them in game and from the Citadel DLC where Traynor notes that Kahlee has good taste in bath products which tells me all I need to know, lol.  Point is I don't need to read the books.  You are obviously free to enjoy them.

1. No, you are just using an asspull. Council law spicifically prohibits arming the krogan, as it does with tampering the genophage. But this is war for existance - the rules don't cut it anymore, especally since the Council made idiots of themselves for seemingly letting all this happen because they didn't believe Shepard. In the ME3: Citadel DLC during the casino party, Shepard jokes that people are going to be suing the Council for all their worth.
Also IDK if you noticed, the asari were against the entire notion of bringing the krogan in, hence why they pulled out of the War Summit. And surely you must know the Salarian's stance on it.
But the bottom line: Council rules no longer apply here. They went out the airlock the moment Palaven and Earth were besieged. Koris is simply trying to stall out the war and overplay what the quarians did. You forget, this is the guy that incited courtroom fear of  Legion to parlay against his opposition. He's nothing if not a shrewd politician.

2. Again, you are the only one perpetuating conflict. I stated this isn't going anywhere, so I suggested letting it go.

3. Actually, since alot of your points about geth peace were contridicted by points made in Mass Effect: Ascension and Mass Effect: Revelation, regarding the quarian's situation and the geth's killing negotiations, you kinda do need to read the books.

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Blockade the relay of whatever system they're in, and their only options are to fight and be annihilated, or run out-system until they run out of fuel and wait to be picked off. That's how the Reapers always won in previous cycles, and it's what they have their Geth thralls do in ME3.

Besides, the Quarian Migrant Fleet takes days to traverse a relay. They're not exactly mobile. If the Reapers have any way of tracking relay traffic at all (which makes sense - it would tell them which systems have spacefaring life, and where it has spread), a 50,000-ship fleet will not go unnoticed.

The Quarians' strength is not combat. It's logistical support. A fleet of refurbished tugs and freighters packed with civilians (and with a serious shortage of escape pods on account of overcrowding) is not going to be staging guerilla raids on Reapers (who have no supply lines to attack) when every ship in the fleet has to stay within shuttle range of the liveships to keep fed. The word "guerilla" doesn't appear once with any of the Quarian war assets.

Really because I have been hoping past them all day in the game.  How many Reapers do you think it will take to blockade a mass relay?  Once you do that how many Reapers are you going to expend going planet by planet and system by system.  

It makes no sense.  You are wasting resources for little gain.  It took them centuries to defeat the Protheans who were hunkered down on planets and you want them to waste time tracking down a mobile fleet?  Space is a massive place.  You would have to use an entire armada to chase down and cover all escape routes.  An entire armada that can be better served harvesting a planet.

And who said Guerilla appeared anywhere.  I said that is what they are suited to do.  The Reapers attack a planet and the Flotilla comes in with the Heavy Fleet and attacks from the rear. The Reapers turn to fight and the flotilla retreats and goes back into hiding.  That is guerilla warfare.  You never directly engage the enemy.  You only attack when they are distracted and once they try and focus on you, you flee.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. No, you are just using an asspull. Council law spicifically prohibits arming the krogan, as it does with tampering the genophage. But this is war for existance - the rules don't cut it anymore, especally since the Council made idiots of themselves for seemingly letting all this happen because they didn't believe Shepard. In the ME3: Citadel DLC during the casino party, Shepard jokes that people are going to be suing the Council for all their worth.
Also IDK if you noticed, the asari were against the entire notion of bringing the krogan in, hence why they pulled out of the War Summit. And surely you must know the Salarian's stance on it.
But the bottom line: Council rules no longer apply here. They went out the airlock the moment Palaven and Earth were besieged. Koris is simply trying to stall out the war and overplay what the quarians did. You forget, this is the guy that incited courtroom fear of  Legion to parlay against his opposition. He's nothing if not a shrewd politician.

2. Again, you are the only one perpetuating conflict. I stated this isn't going anywhere, so I suggested letting it go.

3. Actually, since alot of your points about geth peace were contridicted by points made in Mass Effect: Ascension and Mass Effect: Revelation, regarding the quarian's situation and the geth's killing negotiations, you kinda do need to read the books.

1.  No you arguing something as if I said it.  I said it was a Treaty Violation.  I said Koris and Xen called it that.  So you telling me about something that no one claimed in the game is irrelevant.  Show me where anyone called the Turians out for violating any laws or your point is irrelevant.  Koris and Xen said it clearly that they violated the treaty.  I don't need you speculation.  I want actual characters saying it.

2.  This is not a conflict.   I corrected the record.

3.  Umm no, someone posted the reference from Revelation and I considered it.  No one posted anything from Ascension so I don't need to consider it.  If you make an argument, it is your obligation to provide evidence to support it.

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Blockade the relay of whatever system they're in, and their only options are to fight and be annihilated, or run out-system until they run out of fuel and wait to be picked off. That's how the Reapers always won in previous cycles, and it's what they have their Geth thralls do in ME3.

Besides, the Quarian Migrant Fleet takes days to traverse a relay. They're not exactly mobile. If the Reapers have any way of tracking relay traffic at all (which makes sense - it would tell them which systems have spacefaring life, and where it has spread), a 50,000-ship fleet will not go unnoticed.

The Quarians' strength is not combat. It's logistical support. A fleet of refurbished tugs and freighters packed with civilians (and with a serious shortage of escape pods on account of overcrowding) is not going to be staging guerilla raids on Reapers (who have no supply lines to attack) when every ship in the fleet has to stay within shuttle range of the liveships to keep fed. The word "guerilla" doesn't appear once with any of the Quarian war assets.

Really because I have been hoping past them all day in the game.  How many Reapers do you think it will take to blockade a mass relay?  Once you do that how many Reapers are you going to expend going planet by planet and system by system.

It makes no sense.  You are wasting resources for little gain.  It took them centuries to defeat the Protheans who were hunkered down on planets and you want them to waste time tracking down a mobile fleet?  Space is a massive place.  You would have to use an entire armada to chase down and cover all escape routes.  An entire armada that can be better served harvesting a planet.

And who said Guerilla appeared anywhere.  I said that is what they are suited to do.  The Reapers attack a planet and the Flotilla comes in with the Heavy Fleet and attacks from the rear. The Reapers turn to fight and the flotilla retreats and goes back into hiding.  That is guerilla warfare.  You never directly engage the enemy.  You only attack when they are distracted and once they try and focus on you, you flee.

You're able to easily evade because it's a mini-game, and you're in a top-of-the-line stealth ship. Incidentally, that's why you can leave Tikkun and the Quarians can't - the Geth are blockading the relay.

If you were paying attention, there are few corners of the galaxy the Reapers haven't touched; where a few scans won't bring pursuers down on you despite your stealth capabilities (again, we're talking mini-game mechanics, here). Every system on the map is inaccessible in the end because they're occupied; clearly the Reapers have the advantage of numbers. Even if we assumed the Reapers had no means of tracking Relay traffic, all it would take is one scout detecting the flotilla. The Quarians would need days to relocate their fleet; all the Reapers would need to do is position a single dreadnought at the relay to keep them from escaping.

Like I said, one shot to each of the liveships condemns the entire species to extinction even if no other actions are taken. They've got their jugular presented to the blade so long as they live in space.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 01:25 .

[Auld Wulf]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

For God's sake, how many times do I have to say it?[/quote]
Just up front, Silver. You asked for this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

WHERE was there anything that ever ONCE told the Alliance, the turians, the asari, the salarians, the elcor, the hanar, the volus, the krogan, the vorcha, or the quarians, that the Heretics didn't reperesent the main body of geth? I'm not telling you MY personal views. I'm telling you how EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE saw the geth.[/quote]
Geth: Greetings organics, I--
Alliance Soldier: It's a geth, kill it! Kill it dead!
Geth: MALFUNCTION.
Alliance Soldier: Damned menace.

Really Silver. Really? They all want to kill the geth. How easy do you think it is for the geth to actually talk with them? Legion has a hole in his chest. The above is a thing that could have actually happened.

So much hate. So little think.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.[/quote]
Prove it or it's headcanon. The geth consensus shows the quarian killing their own. We don't know the truth of the Morning War.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.[/quote]
The heretics do. Crazy racism and inability to distinguish extremists from populace aside.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.[/quote]
The heretics do. Crazy racism and inability to distinguish extremists from populace aside.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.[/quote]
Legion is that contact. He has a hole in his chest for his efforts.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.[/quote]
Faction is heretic extremists. Nice omission.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.[/quote]
Faction is heretic extremists. Nice omission.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.[/quote]
Faction is... good grief, getting tired of typing this.

Extremists =/= Populace.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.[/quote]
Heretics working with Saren. Not orthodox geth.

Suggestion to kill populace for sins committed by extremists because killers don't know the difference is noted.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.[/quote]
Actions commited by extremists do not represent the opinions and actions of the populace.

As an intelligent person, you know this. Why are you doing this?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.[/quote]
Hi. I'm Legion. I was created to talk with organics and I have a hole in my chest for the effort.

You're acting like a living construct of intellectual dishonesty here, Silver. You're better than this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers.[/quote]
Heretics were always associated with Reapers. Rest of geth were forced.

Orthodox geth choose to leave Rannoch and build a megastructure. Chose to give Rannoch back to quarians.

Megastructure has very little in the way of defences as a show of goodwill.

Quarian military orders carpet bombing, causing extermination of most orthodox geth.

Orthodox geth are terrified for ongoing existence. To their knowledge, all organics trying to kill them. Heretics offer them a way out. Orthodox geth accept.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren.[/quote]
Heretic extremists do not represent the populace.

Extremists do not represent the populace in any case. Racist thinking.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.[/quote]
Hi. I'm Legion. I tried to talk to organics and now I have a hole in my chest.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

These are the Council, Alliance, and quarian's known facts about the geth.[/quote]
Until Shepard changed this by talking to the orthodox geth instead of shooting at them.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

WHERE in this list is anything that tells them the geth AREN'T represented by the Heretics actions.[/quote]
Hi. I'm Legion. I talked to organics. I helped to build a peaceful, barely armed megastruce. Then most of my people died for no good reason.

Inability to notice efforts made by Legion. Inability to separate extremists from populace. Representative of racist thinking.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Where is anything that would tell or confirm that a split existed at all?[/quote]
You like ignoring the existence of Legion, don't you?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

I don't know if you ever realized this, but the Heretic's being extrimests Was NOT a known fact.[/quote]
Except that Legion tells you that the heretic geth don't represent the populace, and that they're committing terrorist actions against the orthodox geth (trying to brainwash them).

You honestly believe that no one knows about the attack on the heretic ship?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

THAT'S facinating, innit?[/quote]
Monkey see, monkey do. Expected better.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

No one KNEW there was an actual split. So why do you act like everyone DID?[/quote]
Legion. Legion-related missions.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

And that is the single biggest strawman I have ever seen, because it has no bearing here.[/quote]
The only strawman here is yours -- in ignoring the existence of Legion.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

The geth did NOT claim or deny the Heretics actions.[/quote]
Legion did. Hello... Legion. You know, the representative of the orthodox geth. Remember him?

So much intellectual dishonesty. Unbecoming.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They did nothing to make anyone believe the Heretics didn't represent them.[/quote]
Legion.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Normally, you come out and disavow the actions of the party in question [...][/quote]
Legion did this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[...] and openly state they do not represent your beliefs or motivations, [...][/quote]
Legion did this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

What did the geth do? Nothing.[/quote]
I'm sure you'd like Legion to be nothing. He's a massive thorn in your argument.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They did NOTHING to deny the Heretics actions.[/quote]
Legion. Again. Legion exists as an orthodox geth representative.

Where's the quarian representative, or the representatives of anyone else?

Inability to recognise goodwill actions of Legion represntative of bias. Not at all objective.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Of course people are going to blame you for the actions of your people, [...][/quote]
To blame a populace for the actions of a group of extremists is incredibly racist and unethical.

No two ways about it. Your ways of thinking are racist. Sorry.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

if you don't do anything to handle your rogue element, [...][/quote]
You assume that any group of people has been able to do anything about their extremists, no matter what they do. Observe history. The best thing you can do is make sure the distinction between the populace and the extremists is clear.

Now if only someone had done that. Oh wait. Legion did.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[...] or even deny their actions as representing yours.[/quote]
Again. Legion did. You like repeating yourself.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

All the examples you state? Those are of people that DID deny the actions of their rogues as represenative of their beliefs. The geth did NOT do that.[/quote]
Except that they did. Via Legion. They sent a platform to do just what you're saying they didn't.

Therefore you are lying. Unbecmoing.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

The geth issued no claim of the Heretics being rogues or extremists.[/quote]
Oh boy, repetition.

Legion was sent as a representative to do just that. Repetition of lies does not make lies truth.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They answered no comms or hails.[/quote]
Legion has made the point that the orthodox geth are ignored, no matter what they do. Hence his creation.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They killed anyone that came near them.[/quote]
The heretics did. Racist perceptions aside, the heretics do not represent the orthodox geth populace.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

What was everyone SUPPOSED to think?[/quote]
That maybe the actions of the few don't represent thee many.

Logic over instinctive xenophobic emotions.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Were they supposed to look into a crystal prothean sphere and magically know the Heretics were a rogue element?[/quote]
They chose to ignore the geth. Legion was made to serve the purpose of a representative. Legion ended up with a hole in his chest. The first person to listen to Legion was Shepard. Results were achieved. Eventually, peace was achieved. All because Shepard listened to Legion.

The game doesn't support your more simplistic viewpoint. You want to think "all geth are evil" but that isn't the case.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

If the geth wanted people to know the Heretics didn't represent them, perhaps they should have TOLD them that, [...][/quote]
Legion did.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[...] and offered proof of their intentions by handling the Heretics themselves.[/quote]
They did all they were able to do via Legion.

Man, Legion must have just been a friendly ghost you talked to in your AI core in your game.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

A sign of goodwill perhaps?[/quote]
A sign of good will like Legion?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Rather then sitting back and letting the galaxy burn under the Heretic's warpath.[/quote]
You mean like how they didn't because they created Legion?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

And no, the quarian military were NOT extrimists.[/quote]
Strapping guns to civilian liveships (making them glass cannons) isn't an extremist action?

Right.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

The quarian Conclave senete sided with the warplan in a majority vote.[/quote]
Based upon false information.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

I know this because quarian law prohibits the Admirals to force a decision on the fleet without unanimous agreement on the action taken.[/quote]
Except it wasn't unanimous. Tali and Koris disagreed. Tali tells you this in ME3. Big plothole there.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

So it WASN'T an extremist view because [...][/quote]
Because the quarians are shiny angels and the geth are evil devils. So racist.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

(a) the majority of the quarian senate willingly agreed to it, [...][/quote]
Contradicted by Tali.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

( it was that or float in space waiting to die.[/quote]
Or talk to the geth. Legion wanted to talk.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Death or salvation. Take your pick on what someone would choose.[/quote]
Social Darwinism isn't for sapient life forms. We can do this thing called talking. Chatting with Legion would have resulted in lasting peace with the orthodox geth.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Maching against the geth was NOT the reason the quarians attacked. They attacked because they needed their world back ASAP, and the geth showed no inclination to being open to negotiation.[/quote]
Derp.

1.) Most of the orthodox geth had left to build the megastructure.

2.) The quarians attacked the megastructure (out in space), not an installation on Rannoch.

Attack an installation in space that means you no harm, instead of just going back to your homeworld. Sounds legit.

Silver - The arguments you present are full of holes. You need to realise this. Your thinking is based upon racism, and as such you are not impartial. I am impartial because I don't believe the geth or quarians represent true good or evil. However, you believe the geth represent true evil, and the quarians represent true good.

You ignore all good that the geth do, and all evil the quarians are responsible for. Very racist in nature. Your arguments cannot hold water so long as you are so obviously partial to the quarians.

Learn to not be so terribly racist. Then cmoe back. We'll talk more.

Edit: Quoting pulled some interesting shenanigans with line-downs. Perhaps it's not designed for so many quotes. Hopefully the edit fixes it.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 02 avril 2013 - 01:35 .