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[Steelcan]

Yay Auld Wolf is here!

[Steelcan]

Steelcan wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...


The geth have extremists -- the heretics.
The quarians have extermists -- the military.

The military and the heretics do not speak for all of the quarians or all of the geth, respectively.

It's amazing that people don't understand this. Amazing, and utterly frustrating.

. It was the regular geth who tried to wipe out the quarians.  It was the regular geth who did not bat an eye when the heretics attacked the galaxy, it was the regular geth who chose to join the Reapers, and it was the regular geth that the Geth VI represents.

You don't have to look at the heretics to conclude that the geth are extremist.

. For your benefit Auld Wolf.  So you don't have to dig.

[DeinonSlayer]

I might as well get in line, too.

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Hazegurl

Frustrating, innit?

The part that depresses me the most about this thread is that despite all the lessons taught to us by reality over the history of our species, there are still some people who can't separate extremists from the populace. Like I said, blaming the geth for the actions of the heretics is like blaming the Irish for the actions of the IRA.

What so many people refuse to understand is that the heretics are basically the geth version of extremists and, if I must use the word, terrorists. That word people seem to understand. The problem there though is that you then have people who believe that all of a certain ethnicity or species are terrorists, rather than just one extremist group. I say this as a Welsh person, and to my knowledge, the Welsh haven't had any extremist groups (so I'm not defending myself, here).

It's also like blaming all Americans for the actions of American white supremacist extremists against other ethnicities. I don't do that. That's stupid. Furthermore, that just increases hate and it's playing into their hands. When an extremist group has gotten you thinking in black and white terms, they've won, because the next step then is war. And that's what extremists pretty much tend to want -- the eradication of their enemies.

The geth have extremists -- the heretics.
The quarians have extermists -- the military.

The military and the heretics do not speak for all of the quarians or all of the geth, respectively.

It's amazing that people don't understand this. Amazing, and utterly frustrating.

I deconstructed this entire argument several pages back. I guess you must have missed it.

The frustration is yours, and yours alone. You insist on seeing your opposition in a certain way (we're all haters, racists, blah blah blah), and refuse to hear the arguments being presented. The problem here isn't that we have a problem we somehow refuse to recognize. The problem is that you have failed to understand our position. It isn't the shallow racism you want it to be. We're discussing the actual reasoning which would have motivated both sides to take the actions they did, and the information they had and didn't have which influenced that reasoning.

You have consistently stamped the Quarian military as extremists. Lest it need to be mentioned again, Koris is military. Kal'Reegar is military. Are they extremists? No? Then please, stop branding the entire group that way.

[Auld Wulf]

@Steelcan

Where is your evidence of that?

[Auld Wulf]

@DeinonSlayer

Your opinion versus mine. You're insistent on demonising me, too.

But I'm the evil one, you're the good one. You have such a binary, black & white viewpoint. No wonder I sympathise with the geth.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 02 avril 2013 - 01:38 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@DeinonSlayer

Your opinion versus mine. You're insistent on demonising me, too.

You persistently (baselessly) accuse us of racism (among other things), I call you out on it. Seems fair enough.

EDIT: Saw your edit, thank you for once again proving my point. Is this going to go the way it did last time where your next post decries me as being hateful and bitter? Or will it be that I'm a genocide fetishist? A Luddite? Binary thinker is already taken, I'll have to wait to see that one again.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 01:50 .

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Steelcan

Where is your evidence of that?

. My evidence for it being the regular geth who rose against the quarians etc...?  That would be the fact that Legion says that the heretics left the mainstream geth.  He says that they were allowed to leave, so they left Rannoch and settled on that station known as "Heretic Station".   Or the fact that he says that the regular geth refused the old machines' and their gifts so they did not venture beyond the veil but instead focus on their Dyson-sphere

Modifié par Steelcan, 02 avril 2013 - 01:41 .

[Hazegurl]

Deleted all the crap I said I won't address anymore. You'll just have to deal with me disagreeing with you and I don't care about changing your mind half as much as you care about changing mine.

silverexile17s wrote...
So, WRONG. The geth are the ones not looking too good right now....

Let's see, the Geth were minding their own business and the Quarians attacked them without first using any diplomatic measures as advised by Koris and Tali. Violated a treaty doing it, (I think I saw that mentioned here). Expect Shepard to bail them out after driving the Geth into Reaper arms, tried to kill Shepard, told to stand down by an Admiral on ground in Rannoch, allowed a one man idiot to destory their whole race if Shepard doesn't hold said Admiral's hand in dealing with some hotheaded basketcase. So where are they looking good in all this?

5. I WASN'T. YOU were the one that said geth do not worship the Reapers.

Geth didn't worship Reapers. Geth Heretics worshipped Reapers. You can read any past statement of mine that stays on track with this opinion. It has never once changed. At this point, I just think you are looking for any reason to keep this argument going. I won't discuss this part anymore either.  Consider any reply on it snipped.

See what happened. Your lack of accurate communication caused an invalid responce. Sound familar to what we're discussing here?

No, you just do not understand the meaning of words and sentences because you are looking for anything to jump on that would make you right and the other person wrong. If your responses are invaild it is your fault alone because my opinions have remained the same. I have never once spoke of Geth and Geth Heretics as though they are the same. That is all on you.

And actually, most quarians DID agree to the war.

See, this is what I mean. You just need to argue with me. I make fun of the stupid idea of generalizing ALL Quarians and you have to come back with a reply arguing about MOST Quarians.  All and most are not the same thing. I don't care if the majority voted for the war.  Tali, Koris, and those they are in charge of should not be lumped together with them. Or are you arguing for generalizing an entire race of people?

7.  "Fight" means going out and actively combating the enemy before they get to you.

And what part of "preparing to fight Reapers" automatically translates to running all over the galaxy and attacking Reapers?

You know as well as I that the other races were fighting invasions on their own home worlds, moons, and colonies. They were not running around the galaxy looking for Reapers and fighting them as you claim the Geth should do.

9. Again, wrong. Gerrel was supported by Raan and Xen, as well as the majority of the quarian Conclave senete. And again, those reasons are why Gerrel was so intent to get the homeworld back. And the geth's past with shooting down every single diplomatic ship didn't exactally encourage trust in the concept of negotiation working, now did it? It's not "big and dumb." It's desperate. He's looking out for his people in crisis. I doubt one can say any better of Wrex, who holds the war hostage for his people.

Things have changed. Tali was working with Leigon, and Shepard can help them make peace in ME2. With those checkpoints met the Quarians should be open to trying negotiations. Send Tali and Koris to meet with Leigon on neutral ground or find some other way.  I did blame the writers for this, until I saw the events that led up to the Morning War and see that the Quarians have been this way for 300 years. Most of the Quarians seem to be retarded. Why should I regret letting them die, again?

10. It has to do with Legion disagreeing and regretting the choice. The very fact that it was chained up in the Dreadnought's core is proof that it wasn't a willing participant in the alliance.

Actually it doesn't. He could have agreed before getting locked up, just another possiblity to think on. Regardless, Leigon does defend their reasons for siding with the Reapers. He does so more than once. I know you will disagree and you're free to do so but I also consider this topic done.

[remydat]

DS,

Rannoch hasnt been occupied by organics for 300 years. It does not have any infrastructure to support the Quarians. Who has been farming the land these 300 years or planting seeds. You will still need the liveships so all you have done is fixed their location in space because all a Reaper had to do is attack Rannoch and they will basically be locked in to defend a planrt that can't support them and they die.

So not sure where people get the idea that Rannoch is some garden paradise chock full of food.  Realistically it would take years to terraform the planet so if the Reapers really wanted to they could take the planet quite easily.  again all you have done is advertise to the reapers where to find you all for a planrt not yet ready to feed you.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 02:09 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

DS,

Rannoch hasnt been occupied by organics for 300 years. It does not have any infrastructure to support the Quarians. Who has been farming the land these 300 years or planting seeds. You will still need the liveships so all you have done is fixed their location in space because all a Reaper had to do is attack Rannoch and they will basically be locked in to defend a planrt that can't support them and they die.

So not sure where peopke get the idea that Rannoch is some garden paradise chock full of food. Rannoch

I won't pretend to know the full extent of their preparations, but they still stand a better chance on the ground than in space (look at how fast the fleet above Earth fell). It's not like Rannoch is a barren rock they couldn't cultivate food on. Either way, they seem to do just fine down there, with or without Geth assistance. In any case, nowhere in the galaxy is safe, but as long as they live in space, they can't loan their ships out to help others because their holds are full of civilian living quarters.

It's entirely possible we're all putting way more thought into this than the writers themselves did. The idea of the Geth fixing Quarian immune systems simply by "uploading themselves into their suits and simulating infections" is the biggest handwave on this side of Synthesis (I know, I know, it was meant to be a parallel for what happened to the Zha and the Zha'til, part of their pseudo-mystical "all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again" mantra - I don't care for it).

Gotta get some food; might be back later.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 02:12 .

[tevix]

Wow, I missed a lot. I'll try to condense my points to as small a wall as possible.

--Auld wolf, you are repeating yourself and ignoring your own evidence. Legion made contact with shepard. He didn't make contact with the entire galaxy. No one else besides shepards crew knows about the heretic split.

--Silver, for the third time. I get that the geth according to lore have a lousy history of accepting peace offers. All I ask was that the quarians try one more time. If they get rejected, they can attack with my blessing.

--Remy, to be fair, the concept of a soul is religion based. It isn't entirely fair to assume that because, say, dolphins have no churches or mass prayers or talk about the soul that they are not self aware. Humanity was self aware long before religion or talk of souls and afterlives. Fact is, we don't know for sure, but I can safely say it doesn't seem fair to deny the possbility of some animals being self aware because they don't ask about the soul.

--Remy, in regards to rannoch's life sustaining capabilities: We know only for sure what the quarians and geth tell us. The geth (or rather legion) say that they have preserved rannoch and continue efforts to restore it to its condition pre-MW. The quarians know their planet better than we do. After only 300 years there's little reason to assume the planet is not still the best possible option to sustain quarian life. The atmosphere and lands have likely changed little. It's not unrealistic to assume it's not much differant than when they left it, bar quarian structures. Raan says according to history the "southern countinent" had good farming lands. 300 years isn't a long time for a planet. 300 years ago Wisconsin was not a desert, and Utah a rolling grasslands. The areas will be largely unchanged.

--To all: I get that the heretics are an extremist faction. I get that their actions do not represent the geth. According to legion, however, the geth knew the heretics goals and intentions before they left. I expect a race to police its own people and hold its own people accountable. The fact that they let the heretics go knowing full well what they planned to do is, as far as my own morals go, unacceptable.

When you have a terrorist in your custody, you don't release them onto the world and then excuse yourself of responsibility by saying they wanted to kill, you didn't, so you just let them go. The geth can either be an isolationist society that have their own rules and want no help or contact from anyone else, or a contributing member of the galactic community, not both.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

Deleted all the crap I said I won't address anymore. You'll just have to deal with me disagreeing with you and I don't care about changing your mind half as much as you care about changing mine.

silverexile17s wrote...
So, WRONG. The geth are the ones not looking too good right now....

Let's see, the Geth were minding their own business and the Quarians attacked them without first using any diplomatic measures as advised by Koris and Tali. Violated a treaty doing it, (I think I saw that mentioned here). Expect Shepard to bail them out after driving the Geth into Reaper arms, tried to kill Shepard, told to stand down by an Admiral on ground in Rannoch, allowed a one man idiot to destory their whole race if Shepard doesn't hold said Admiral's hand in dealing with some hotheaded basketcase. So where are they looking good in all this?

5. I WASN'T. YOU were the one that said geth do not worship the Reapers.

Geth didn't worship Reapers. Geth Heretics worshipped Reapers. You can read any past statement of mine that stays on track with this opinion. It has never once changed. At this point, I just think you are looking for any reason to keep this argument going. I won't discuss this part anymore either.  Consider any reply on it snipped.

See what happened. Your lack of accurate communication caused an invalid responce. Sound familar to what we're discussing here?

No, you just do not understand the meaning of words and sentences because you are looking for anything to jump on that would make you right and the other person wrong. If your responses are invaild it is your fault alone because my opinions have remained the same. I have never once spoke of Geth and Geth Heretics as though they are the same. That is all on you.

And actually, most quarians DID agree to the war.

See, this is what I mean. You just need to argue with me. I make fun of the stupid idea of generalizing ALL Quarians and you have to come back with a reply arguing about MOST Quarians.  All and most are not the same thing. I don't care if the majority voted for the war.  Tali, Koris, and those they are in charge of should not be lumped together with them. Or are you arguing for generalizing an entire race of people?

7.  "Fight" means going out and actively combating the enemy before they get to you.

And what part of "preparing to fight Reapers" automatically translates to running all over the galaxy and attacking Reapers?

You know as well as I that the other races were fighting invasions on their own home worlds, moons, and colonies. They were not running around the galaxy looking for Reapers and fighting them as you claim the Geth should do.

9. Again, wrong. Gerrel was supported by Raan and Xen, as well as the majority of the quarian Conclave senete. And again, those reasons are why Gerrel was so intent to get the homeworld back. And the geth's past with shooting down every single diplomatic ship didn't exactally encourage trust in the concept of negotiation working, now did it? It's not "big and dumb." It's desperate. He's looking out for his people in crisis. I doubt one can say any better of Wrex, who holds the war hostage for his people.

Things have changed. Tali was working with Leigon, and Shepard can help them make peace in ME2. With those checkpoints met the Quarians should be open to trying negotiations. Send Tali and Koris to meet with Leigon on neutral ground or find some other way.  I did blame the writers for this, until I saw the events that led up to the Morning War and see that the Quarians have been this way for 300 years. Most of the Quarians seem to be retarded. Why should I regret letting them die, again?

10. It has to do with Legion disagreeing and regretting the choice. The very fact that it was chained up in the Dreadnought's core is proof that it wasn't a willing participant in the alliance.

Actually it doesn't. He could have agreed before getting locked up, just another possiblity to think on. Regardless, Leigon does defend their reasons for siding with the Reapers. He does so more than once. I know you will disagree and you're free to do so but I also consider this topic done.

1. Again, you ignore how, from the perspective of the Alliance, the Council, and the quarians, the geth launched an unpresidented and unprovoked attack on Eden Prime, Feros, and Noveria, the Citadel, and tried to wipe out all organic life under Sovergien. That doesn't exactaly paint them in a good light, does it? Especally added to the fact that they killed everyone that ever tried to make contact with them, and needlessly mass slaughtered billions of quarian civilians in their retaliation.
Also, the quarians DID attempt a peace talk with Legion via messageing. Gerrel saw no reason to trust the geth. Xen didn't see them as having rights. Rann thought peace was impossible with all the bad blood between them. But before any further attempts could be made, Legion cut contact. Do you understand the signifigance of that? Legion was the one that pulled from negotiations first, retruning to geth space because the geth were having trouble "reaching consensis." The geth broke the negotiation talk first. The matter was never brought up again because Legion never restablished contact.
And again, no different then Hackett nearly killing Shepard at the Citadel with the attack on Sovergein. It's three lives  vs millions. No military commander will place three lives over millions. Not Gerrel, not Hackett. Not anyone worth their rank.
I explained that the quarians need a world because they cannon fight the Reapers as is while burdened with civilians, nor do they have anywhere that is going to actively take 17 million civilians that need spicific diets and health needs. It was either salvation on the homeworld or death in space. What do you think anyone thinking about 17 million lives would pick? Also, since no-one, quarians included, know the geth are not inherently hostile, and since the geth are already branded enemies of the free galaxy, the quarians would actually look like goddamn heroes to the Council.

2-3. Wrong. You never specified the Heretics. You said geth do not worship the Reapers. You didn't include the Heretics in that staement, so I believed you somehow had disregarded them. You failed to differentiate them. Your comunnication failure here, not mine.
Iornic. You failing to provide enough information led to a misunderstanding, just as the geth's failing to provide information led to a war. See the connection?
I'm not looking for anything to jump on. You jumped on me here. Besides, you seem to snip any and all topics at a moments notice.

4. What? I was simply pointing out the fact that your joke was more accurate then you believed. I wasn't trying to "jump on you" over that - I simply pointed out that it was ironic that your joke was actually mostly accurate.
Who's jumping on who, now?
The quarian Conclave votes on matters, which are then put to individual vote among each ship. Literally every quarian has some form of say when it comes to going to war. I said nothing of grouping them. I was pointing out that, like it or not, most of the quarians voted for this. And since most of the quarians are civilian ships, that means a majority of the civilians agreed to this as well. It wasn't forced.

5. Look at the turians and humans. Look at the volus, elcor and hanar supporting them. The asari are running ragged to protect their own space.
Pretty much every race was doing exactally that - except for the salarians, raloi, and geth. And Thessia and Dekunna were not directly invaded by the war until after the Rannoch invasion. Nither was Kajhe. So no, they were doing that before their world was invaded.

6. One geth isn't much evidence of geth peace, given that tens of thousands attacked the Attican Traverse and the Citadel. Especally one geth that is isolated from the main geth consensis.
And again, the geth are the one's that let the entire galaxy hate them.

I mean, the reason you thing that the geth are suddenly going to negotiate after 300 years of killing all negotiation attemps is....?
And the reason for hating the quarians for acting on a reputation the geth's own inaction and apathy caused is....
And the reason for believing the geth want peace when they did nothing to disclaim the actions of the Battle of the Citadel would be.....?
I mean, seriously, that's three strikes.  And the geth could easily have changed it with a simple announcement, and a token of goodwill by doing something about the Heretics before it ever got that out of hand. As is, because the geth never attempt to rectify the negetive feelings against them, nobody - no quarian, turian, human, asari, salarian, krogan, vorcha, hanar, elcor, drell, or volus - has any reason what-so-ever to not shoot a geth on sight for the Citadel attack.
Does that suddenly make you consider everyone in the galaxy retarded?

7. Hardware shackles that chain his operating systems and slave him? You really think ANYONE would agree to that? You are actually arguing that Legion agreed to this, despite the nurmours statements that this is something he would never agree to. Shepard even perosnally says "Legion helped me stop the Collectors. There's no way it would have agreed to this." If Legion had agreed to it, do you think they would have needed to chain him up if he was a willing particapent?
And again, no it doesn't. If you go renadage on him when discussing the Reaper code after locating the Reaper Base, Legion will flat-out admit the geth were wrong and must be stopped.

[shodiswe]

A lot of people are confused about how the Quarian offensive on the Geth Started.

Especialy with Tali as an Admiral, the thign is I think they made her an admiral because they needed a "Geth expert" after the war/offensive had started. Xen and Mr "I punt him a lot" voted for a war, Koris was agaisn't it. However the Quarians tend to unite to "support" one decition, this is probably how a Geth consensus works. They see where the wind is blowign then they all agree to support that oen route giving it their complete support for the strength and best interests of the fleet.
Because they are firm belivers of the mantra "Divided you shall fall" and so on and so forth.

Also somewhere I know a few people say you can't make the Geth back down, the thing is, the Geth arn't the one's attacking, the Quarians are.

When you got a Quarian fleet (bully) attacking defenseless people who are trying to rally a defence and fightingmorale (Geth). Then you can't tell the victim to stand down.

That's like you getting mugged in a dark alley and having a gang kicking on you while you're trying to cover your head, Then a police officer commes along, bends down to your face and tells you, stop resisting!

At the end of the day, I think there is only one point that's worth anything, and that's that it doesn't matter if "YOU" think a certain person or entity or species or robot or whatever is worth less than other people, because they won't agree, and if you keep marginalizing them and kicking them then they will fight back if they feel the least bit entitled to any kind of rights.
It doesn't matter what you think, if you choose to marginalize them and beat them down then kick on them when they are down, then they will just keep fighting back, the will keep comming back. And they will remember, the truth is hard to hide. Even if you kill them new "people" or "non-people" or "undesirable not living not worth anything" things will come alive and realize what's goign on and what the universe is like and what their options are.

You can not decide their worth and make it a universal truth, it can only become your truth and that of those who agrees with you.
You can however decide what you belive, what you think, and how "YOU" act. The same goes for others, the ones you wouldn't recognize got the same choices wether you like it or not. You can either tollerate them and endure it or fight a never ending struggle.

The Geth Quarian conflict is more than just a choice between the Quarians or the Geth, it's a choice between acceptance, tollerance or intolerance. The Quarians and the Council are already proving the catalysts reasoning. If the galaxy is to stand a chance it has to make a different choice.
If you can't beat them, join them, or make them join you. Together you will be stronger and better able to resist extremist factions and they will have less space in which to grow.

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[tevix]

@Shodiswe

That was a fantastic post.

+1

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

Yeah, I think starkid also tampered with the destory option to include all synthetics. It's like he was taking hostages or something. "Kill us and your friends go too." I really hate that little shyt.  While I do find Remy's views on synthesis to be pretty good, I also see it as halting evolution. What makes evolution so fascinating is the unpredictablity of it. We can develop in ways we've never thought possible, Synthesis is just one possible evolutionary path not end game as starkid claims. We should be free to develop however we all see fit regardless of the aches and pains and war, that goes for both organics and synthetics. I would never choose the green stream but I do like hearing other views about it. Especially if they bring up something I've never thought about.

I said this in another thread but synthesis as it is depicted cannot halt evolution.  Evolution or more precisely natural selection ie the process by which evolution is achieved is largely the result of errors in the replication or reproduction process.  When organics replicate themselves the process results in random errors/mutations.

So as long as in a post synthesis world, reproduction still occurs, natural selection must still occur.  Further, the thing that drives natural selection is our genes/DNA.  Since all the different organics kept their DNA (otherwise they would look the same post synthesis), you still have Krogan, Asara, Salarian, Human, Turian, etc. DNA so you still have genetic variation that is required for natural selection.

So what Star Kid probably meant is when he said the hybrid represents the final evolution is the final cross species evolution ie the ability of evolution to result in a reptile evolving into a bird, a bird evolving into a mammal and an ape evolving into man.  If he saw that the human DNA's final evolution was to combine with synthetic material to create a hybrid then yes that is the final path.  However, once you reach that final path, you still have intra-species evolution ie the evolution that does not result in animals evolving into different animals but that results in the same animal continue to evolve within it's own species.  As I said above, that process has to continue unless reproduction ends or synthesis resulted in perfect replication which could only happen if everyone sexual reproduction led to clones being born ie people with identical DNA  and genes of their parents which seems unlikely.

I just don't see how natural selection can offer much when all ailments have been cured for all species eliminating any possiblity of a weeding out process. 

I do get what you mean by every race still being there but it seems like in order to get a different variation you have to mate with them. I can't see how it provides much advantage as only the best DNA from each group is passed and how would, let's say a Turian/Human synthesis baby adapt to living on Earth or Palavan. Will they just be able to do that? Is adaption possible? If so, then is it because they are part Synthetic or is it natural selection at work.

I also wonder about what the difference in the heterozygote advantage between a natural occurance of it vs the one given to everyone through Synethsis, and what it could mean for natural selection in evolution.

Ex: A person can carry one trait of sickle cell which provides resistance to Malaria. If Synthesis cures this genetic trait then does the hybrid body now counter Malaria in another way? Does it just cure it? If so then what advantage is there in adapting to ones evironment?

And would Genetic drifting matter? I know it is random compared to natural selection but it can also override natural selection in the evolutionary process.

It's just too much to think about and most of it is too uncertain for me to take a nose dive into the beam.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 02 avril 2013 - 03:46 .

[remydat]

DS, Tevix,

Let me preface this by saying this is obviously us just speculating so in the end we are free to believe what we want.  And I am assuming the Geth don't help because the Quarians opted for war not expecting the Geth to ultimately help them.

Now, think of earth.  Without humans to cultivate the land, most crops necessary to sustain a population of 17 million would not grow in sufficient quantities by itself.  Furthermore without humans to use pesticides and such, bugs that like say the Quarian equivalent of corn would go to town eating to their hearts content.  You also would have weeds overruning things because weeds by definition are sh*tty a**holes that tend to be able to gobble up nutrients that the good planets we like to eat need to prosper.

There is no evidence the Geth have been maintaining the land for food production for the Quarians.  We are only told they have been cleaning up toxins.  Toxins I might add that also probably make it tough to grow anything in the soil that won't kill you.  Furthermore, the Quarians have no idea the Geth are cleaning up toxins as from their perspective the Geth are a**holes who couldn't possibly be doing something so nice.  

There is a reason that humans lived in small communities as hunter gatherers for much of their existence.  The land doesn't provide enough resources to just magically sustain 17 million people by itself.  Human populations grew as they moved from hunter gatherers to a farming sendentary lifestyle which requires effort.  Effort that has not been made for 300 years as the Geth don't need food.

So yes, long term a planet might be nice but in the short term if you really fear a Reaper attack, tying yourself down to a planet that you have no clue is capable of sustaining 17 million people without some serious time and effort is simply not a smart decision in my opinion.  You have no idea how much farmable land still exists due to the toxins, no idea how many weeds, bugs or plant viruses have damaged edible food supplies, don't have the infrastruture built to establish irrigation systems, farms, etc.  Hell you likely don't even have electricity set up beyond the defense stations that the Geth have been using.  Rome was not built in a day.  

If I am the Reapers I would be perfectly estactic about the Quarians finding a home.  I now don't need to go chasing them through the sytems.  I just go to Rannoch and the Quarian Fleet won't help other planets once I attack this planet that can't even feed them.  Furthermore, there is no way you can leave your civilian population on Rannoch without leaving a lot of the liveships because until you can build the infrastructure to reestablish farmng on Rannoch, you need the liveships to feed the colonists.

These dudes were getting ripped to shreds by Geth with Reaper Code and you think they can defend a planet that can't even feed them properly yet from a Reaper force?  Nah, either the Reapers didn't care about the Quarians or the game designers just screwed up. 

[tevix]

@Remy

I....can't really argue with that actually. You make good points I hadn't considered. Short term retaking of rannoch provides little immediate benefits at best. Not to mention in order to build an infrastructure they'd have to cannibalize some of their ships, probably the liveships.

Once you kill the reaper they already know you're there. Using rannoch as a source of food is an easy achilles heal to take advantage of.

I guess the quarians are just stuck hauling their liveships around, and totally screwed if they ever loose them.

[remydat]

Tevix,

As for the point about religion. Again, the issue is not whether one believes. The issue is having the ability to think about these things. Our ape like ancestors don't truly show a divergence from other ape like creatures until they start for example burying the dead and develop ancestor worship. Doing so provides a hint that they have moved beyond simply trying to survive to continue the species but rather have higher level concerns.

And this is not to say they were not sentient before but that the clear evidence of their sentience was when they started to do or think about these types of things. So yeah maybe a Dolphins is really sentient in the same manner as humans but that is not been proven really.

And the fact is if it is and decides to wage war on me because I have killed it for food, sport, or just sh*ts and giggles, I really can't get mad at it for wanting me dead.

[Hazegurl]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
Also, the quarians DID attempt a peace talk with Legion via messageing. Gerrel saw no reason to trust the geth. Xen didn't see them as having rights. Rann thought peace was impossible with all the bad blood between them. But before any further attempts could be made, Legion cut contact.[/quote]

If this can be believed. Then I bolded reasons why it could have been cut.

[quote]2-3. Wrong. You never specified the Heretics.

I'm not looking for anything to jump on. You jumped on me here. Besides, you seem to snip any and all topics at a moments notice.[/quote]

When have I ever stated that Geth Heretics represented all Geth? Did you even bother to read my posts in this thread stating that I kill Geth Heretics in my playthroughs? When you began stating how Geth worship Reapers I have replied MULTIPLE times telling you that those were the actions of Geth Heretics. You chose to ignore all of this to argue with me. It took me typing heretics in all caps just to get you to pay attention. 

As for me snipping your replies. I have no desire to keep repeating myself forever in this thread. I keep stating my opinion, you keep stating the same thing. Blah blah. I guess you don't understand the simple concept of agreeing to disagree with someone. Please learn it, it cuts useless debates short.

[quote]4. What? I was simply pointing out the fact that your joke was more accurate then you believed. I wasn't trying to "jump on you" over that - I simply pointed out that it was ironic that your joke was actually mostly accurate.
Who's jumping on who, now?[/quote]

It just seems like you were saying it was okay to generalize them by the actions of a few of their leaders. But really it was you just derailing the discussion when I brought up how stupid it is to generalize the Geth by the actions of the Heretics.

[quote]The quarian Conclave votes on matters....blah[/quote]
Why should the Geth run around the galaxy fighting Reapers?

[quote]6. One geth isn't much evidence of geth peace, given that tens of thousands attacked the Attican Traverse and the Citadel. Especally one geth that is isolated from the main geth consensis.
And again, the geth are the one's that let the entire galaxy hate them.[/quote]

Oh please, the entire galaxy already hated the Geth. If Tali was the Geth expert and she is against making war with them then perhaps the Quarians should shut up and listen to her.

[quote]I mean, the reason you thing that the geth are suddenly going to negotiate after 300 years of killing all negotiation attemps is....?[/quote]

If Koris says there is another way then why not take him and Tali up on any ideas they have? But I guess it wouldn't be as glorious as starting an illegal war and then killing your entire race to win it.

[quote]And the reason for hating the quarians for acting on a reputation the geth's own inaction and apathy caused is....[/quote]

I don't hate the Quarians for that. I don't even hate all the Quarians. I really don't get the idea that if you don't agree with the Quarians you must hate them.  I hate their ****** poor leaders, hot headedness,Gerrel and Xen, stupid military government, and the inaction of the Quarian people that they would allow their entire race to go extinct because of an Admiral who might as well be a five year old with ADHD.

[quote]And the reason for believing the geth want peace when they did nothing to disclaim the actions of the Battle of the Citadel would be.....?[/quote]

Yeah cause right after the battle they should just head to the Citadel for cake and pie.

You do realize that Leigon is developed after the destruction of Sovereign and specially designed to communicate with organics and operate outside the Veil. Hm, I wonder why they would go through all that trouble to find Shepard etc.  Oh yeah and the youtube vid also explains Leigons pov about peace with the Quarians.
www.youtube.com/watch
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Legion


[quote]Does that suddenly make you consider everyone in the galaxy retarded?[/quote]

No, considering the fact that it violates the treaty to wage war against them.

[quote]7. Hardware shackles that chain his operating systems and slave him? You really think ANYONE would agree to that?[/quote]

*sigh* I never said he would. I said he could have agreed to the alliance before getting shackled.

[quote]And again, no it doesn't. If you go renadage on him when discussing the Reaper code after locating the Reaper Base, Legion will flat-out admit the geth were wrong and must be stopped.
[/quote]

Let's see that video. Cause so far I have found ones where he defends them and doesn't display this great shame you kept claiming he displayed about it. If he does say they are wrong it could be a case of him believing that things have gone too far.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How do you tell a geth heretic from a non-heretic?

[Da Don Giovanni]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How do you tell a geth heretic from a non-heretic?

One is shooting at you on site because Harbinger is directing them too.

The other is flagging you down for a chat-chit.

Yes i flipped chit-chat. They're words, they don't control us.

Sent from Android for Galaxy SIII

[DeinonSlayer]

@Remy

You make a good argument, but it should be noted that Rannoch's codex entry says the Geth have "cultivated some farmland" and "repaired ecological damage" from the war in addition to maintaining ancient structures. Still, that begs the question of how the Quarians would know this. Unless this was something communicated between Legion and Tali during the brief pre-war period during which they were still talking, or a stealth drone of some kind got some idea of what state Rannoch was in pre-invasion, you're right - the Quarians would have little idea what state Rannoch was in. If Legion was sold, unless they go the spy drone route there would be little reason to believe Rannoch wasn't still a poisoned cemetery-world. Such a planet (going off what the Quarians would know) wouldn't be in the best shape for moving in... truly leaving them with nowhere to go. Either they knew something which wasn't conveyed to the player, or the writers simply didn't think of it. I've seen plenty of TV shows where the abandoned far-future Earth has crumbling cities with abandoned streets full of rusty, empty cars... whose tires are still inflated.



Yeah. Oversights happen.

I really am starting to think we're overthinking this (sort of like the ending debacle, where everyone was convinced the dextros who came to Earth would starve to death and the Normandy crew would start inbreeding on Planet Nowhere while Tali and Garrus wasted away, and so on and so on). I mean, how much thought was really put into this? The entire immune-system issue we spent three games hearing about was hand-waved in a single conversation with the notion that the Geth could fix all of their problems through "reprogramming suit functions," something the galaxy-renowned computer experts evidently couldn't think of over the last three hundred years spent living in said suits. I guess something could have been thrown in about "mass effect fields" for good measure (oh wait, it was in Citadel DLC). ME2 talked of genetic engineering being the only solution if they tried to colonize another world, but I guess we're just supposed to forget about all of that.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 05:48 .

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

I just don't see how natural selection can offer much when all ailments have been cured for all species eliminating any possiblity of a weeding out process. 

I do get what you mean by every race still being there but it seems like in order to get a different variation you have to mate with them. I can't see how it provides much advantage as only the best DNA from each group is passed and how would, let's say a Turian/Human synthesis baby adapt to living on Earth or Palavan. Will they just be able to do that? Is adaption possible? If so, then is it because they are part Synthetic or is it natural selection at work.

I also wonder about what the difference in the heterozygote advantage between a natural occurance of it vs the one given to everyone through Synethsis, and what it could mean for natural selection in evolution.

Ex: A person can carry one trait of sickle cell which provides resistance to Malaria. If Synthesis cures this genetic trait then does the hybrid body now counter Malaria in another way? Does it just cure it? If so then what advantage is there in adapting to ones evironment?

And would Genetic drifting matter? I know it is random compared to natural selection but it can also override natural selection in the evolutionary process.

It's just too much to think about and most of it is too uncertain for me to take a nose dive into the beam.

Whether it offers much doesn't change the fact it occurs.  For example, you have a beetle resistant to pesticides and you have one that isn't.  In a world with no pesticides the non-resistant beetles outnumber the resistant ones because the non-resistant beetles are the norm and the resistant beetle is the result of genetic mutation that arises due to reproduction ie an organism trying to create a copy of itself.

Now, when we introduce pesticides, the non-resistant beetle that was numerous die out and the resistant beetle survives and soon becomes the dominant species because it is better suited to survive in a world of pesticides.  

That is natural selection.  So adaption as a cause for evolution is an illusion.  An illusion created because there is so much genetic variation that we don't notice it until that mutation is seen in a population where it conveys an advantage relative to the environment.  We don't notice that the non-resistant beetle exists before pesticides came along because he was in the minority and since there were no pesticides we didn't have a reason to suspect he existed.

Let's say a new disease called Legion will appear in 5 years.  There are people living right now already immune to it.  We just don't notice them because they are the minority and we simply don't know this disease is coming so there would be no reason to go looking for people resistant to a disease that doesn't exist.  Then in 5 years when Legion hits people start dying.  Suddenly, we discover that certain people with a particular gene are immune.  We assume that these guys adapted and developed an immunity but the reality is no, they did not adapt.  They simply were hidden among the general population and only became noticeable when this new disease killed the people without the mutation.

So again, the reproduction process creates genetic diversity irrespective of the environment.  We simply don't notice that diversity until something in the environment forces us to take note of it.

[remydat]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How do you tell a geth heretic from a non-heretic?

You ask?  I haven't seen one lie about being a Heretic or a True Geth, lol.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Auld Wulf wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

For God's sake, how many times do I have to say it?[/quote]
Just up front, Silver. You asked for this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

WHERE was there anything that ever ONCE told the Alliance, the turians, the asari, the salarians, the elcor, the hanar, the volus, the krogan, the vorcha, or the quarians, that the Heretics didn't reperesent the main body of geth? I'm not telling you MY personal views. I'm telling you how EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE MASS EFFECT UNIVERSE saw the geth.[/quote]
1. Geth: Greetings organics, I--
Alliance Soldier: It's a geth, kill it! Kill it dead!
Geth: MALFUNCTION.
Alliance Soldier: Damned menace.

Really Silver. Really? They all want to kill the geth. How easy do you think it is for the geth to actually talk with them? Legion has a hole in his chest. The above is a thing that could have actually happened.

So much hate. So little think.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth kill billions in mass slaughter, taking no prisoners.[/quote]
2. Prove it or it's headcanon. The geth consensus shows the quarian killing their own. We don't know the truth of the Morning War.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth kill every single peace envoy that enters their space.[/quote]
3.The heretics do. Crazy racism and inability to distinguish extremists from populace aside.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth kill every ship that enters their space with no discrimination.[/quote]
4.The heretics do. Crazy racism and inability to distinguish extremists from populace aside.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth never once attempt contact with wider galaxy.[/quote]
5.Legion is that contact. He has a hole in his chest for his efforts.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction leades attack on Eden Prime. Thousands of humans dead. New conflict started.[/quote]
6. Faction is heretic extremists. Nice omission.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction leades attack on Feros. Over a thousand dead.[/quote]
7. Faction is heretic extremists. Nice omission.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction infiltrates Noveria.[/quote]
8. Faction is... good grief, getting tired of typing this.

Extremists =/= Populace.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction leads massive assault on Citadel. Tens of thousands dead. Council threatened.[/quote]
9. Heretics working with Saren. Not orthodox geth.

Suggestion to kill populace for sins committed by extremists because killers don't know the difference is noted.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Geth faction hijacks ship and attempts to suicide run human terminus colony with ship full of military-grade explosives.[/quote]
10. Actions commited by extremists do not represent the opinions and actions of the populace.

As an intelligent person, you know this. Why are you doing this?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

No geth attempt an negotiation or claims of responcibility taken for above acts.[/quote]
11. Hi. I'm Legion. I was created to talk with organics and I have a hole in my chest for the effort.

You're acting like a living construct of intellectual dishonesty here, Silver. You're better than this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

(Post-Reaper invasion) Geth faction now associated with Reapers.[/quote]
12. Heretics were always associated with Reapers. Rest of geth were forced.

Orthodox geth choose to leave Rannoch and build a megastructure. Chose to give Rannoch back to quarians.

Megastructure has very little in the way of defences as a show of goodwill.

Quarian military orders carpet bombing, causing extermination of most orthodox geth.

Orthodox geth are terrified for ongoing existence. To their knowledge, all organics trying to kill them. Heretics offer them a way out. Orthodox geth accept.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Accountible for nearly ending all galactic life in the batlle of the Citadel under Saren.[/quote]
13. Heretic extremists do not represent the populace.

Extremists do not represent the populace in any case. Racist thinking.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Still no public statement from any geth regarding this.[/quote]
14. Hi. I'm Legion. I tried to talk to organics and now I have a hole in my chest.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

These are the Council, Alliance, and quarian's known facts about the geth.[/quote]
15. Until Shepard changed this by talking to the orthodox geth instead of shooting at them.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

WHERE in this list is anything that tells them the geth AREN'T represented by the Heretics actions.[/quote]
16. Hi. I'm Legion. I talked to organics. I helped to build a peaceful, barely armed megastruce. Then most of my people died for no good reason.

Inability to notice efforts made by Legion. Inability to separate extremists from populace. Representative of racist thinking.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Where is anything that would tell or confirm that a split existed at all?[/quote]
17. You like ignoring the existence of Legion, don't you?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

I don't know if you ever realized this, but the Heretic's being extrimests Was NOT a known fact.[/quote]
18. Except that Legion tells you that the heretic geth don't represent the populace, and that they're committing terrorist actions against the orthodox geth (trying to brainwash them).

You honestly believe that no one knows about the attack on the heretic ship?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

THAT'S facinating, innit?[/quote]
19. Monkey see, monkey do. Expected better.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

No one KNEW there was an actual split. So why do you act like everyone DID?[/quote]
20. Legion. Legion-related missions.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

And that is the single biggest strawman I have ever seen, because it has no bearing here.[/quote]
21. The only strawman here is yours -- in ignoring the existence of Legion.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

The geth did NOT claim or deny the Heretics actions.[/quote]
22. Legion did. Hello... Legion. You know, the representative of the orthodox geth. Remember him?

So much intellectual dishonesty. Unbecoming.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They did nothing to make anyone believe the Heretics didn't represent them.[/quote]
23. Legion.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Normally, you come out and disavow the actions of the party in question [...][/quote]
24. Legion did this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[...] and openly state they do not represent your beliefs or motivations, [...][/quote]
25. Legion did this.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

What did the geth do? Nothing.[/quote]
25. I'm sure you'd like Legion to be nothing. He's a massive thorn in your argument.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They did NOTHING to deny the Heretics actions.[/quote]
26. Legion. Again. Legion exists as an orthodox geth representative.

Where's the quarian representative, or the representatives of anyone else?

Inability to recognise goodwill actions of Legion represntative of bias. Not at all objective.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Of course people are going to blame you for the actions of your people, [...][/quote]
27. To blame a populace for the actions of a group of extremists is incredibly racist and unethical.

No two ways about it. Your ways of thinking are racist. Sorry.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

if you don't do anything to handle your rogue element, [...][/quote]
28. You assume that any group of people has been able to do anything about their extremists, no matter what they do. Observe history. The best thing you can do is make sure the distinction between the populace and the extremists is clear.

Now if only someone had done that. Oh wait. Legion did.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[...] or even deny their actions as representing yours.[/quote]
29. Again. Legion did. You like repeating yourself.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

All the examples you state? Those are of people that DID deny the actions of their rogues as represenative of their beliefs. The geth did NOT do that.[/quote]
30. Except that they did. Via Legion. They sent a platform to do just what you're saying they didn't.

Therefore you are lying. Unbecmoing.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

The geth issued no claim of the Heretics being rogues or extremists.[/quote]
31. Oh boy, repetition.

Legion was sent as a representative to do just that. Repetition of lies does not make lies truth.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They answered no comms or hails.[/quote]
32. Legion has made the point that the orthodox geth are ignored, no matter what they do. Hence his creation.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

They killed anyone that came near them.[/quote]
33. The heretics did. Racist perceptions aside, the heretics do not represent the orthodox geth populace.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

What was everyone SUPPOSED to think?[/quote]
34. That maybe the actions of the few don't represent thee many.

Logic over instinctive xenophobic emotions.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Were they supposed to look into a crystal prothean sphere and magically know the Heretics were a rogue element?[/quote]
35. They chose to ignore the geth. Legion was made to serve the purpose of a representative. Legion ended up with a hole in his chest. The first person to listen to Legion was Shepard. Results were achieved. Eventually, peace was achieved. All because Shepard listened to Legion.

The game doesn't support your more simplistic viewpoint. You want to think "all geth are evil" but that isn't the case.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

If the geth wanted people to know the Heretics didn't represent them, perhaps they should have TOLD them that, [...][/quote]
36. Legion did.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

[...] and offered proof of their intentions by handling the Heretics themselves.[/quote]
37. They did all they were able to do via Legion.

Man, Legion must have just been a friendly ghost you talked to in your AI core in your game.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

A sign of goodwill perhaps?[/quote]
38. A sign of good will like Legion?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Rather then sitting back and letting the galaxy burn under the Heretic's warpath.[/quote]
39. You mean like how they didn't because they created Legion?

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

And no, the quarian military were NOT extrimists.[/quote]
40. Strapping guns to civilian liveships (making them glass cannons) isn't an extremist action?

Right.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

The quarian Conclave senete sided with the warplan in a majority vote.[/quote]
41. Based upon false information.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

I know this because quarian law prohibits the Admirals to force a decision on the fleet without unanimous agreement on the action taken.[/quote]
42. Except it wasn't unanimous. Tali and Koris disagreed. Tali tells you this in ME3. Big plothole there.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

So it WASN'T an extremist view because [...][/quote]
43. Because the quarians are shiny angels and the geth are evil devils. So racist.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

(a) the majority of the quarian senate willingly agreed to it, [...][/quote]
44. Contradicted by Tali.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

( it was that or float in space waiting to die.[/quote]
45. Or talk to the geth. Legion wanted to talk.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Death or salvation. Take your pick on what someone would choose.[/quote]
46. Social Darwinism isn't for sapient life forms. We can do this thing called talking. Chatting with Legion would have resulted in lasting peace with the orthodox geth.

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

Maching against the geth was NOT the reason the quarians attacked. They attacked because they needed their world back ASAP, and the geth showed no inclination to being open to negotiation.[/quote]
47. Derp.

1.) Most of the orthodox geth had left to build the megastructure.

2.) The quarians attacked the megastructure (out in space), not an installation on Rannoch.

Attack an installation in space that means you no harm, instead of just going back to your homeworld. Sounds legit.

Silver - The arguments you present are full of holes. You need to realise this. Your thinking is based upon racism, and as such you are not impartial. I am impartial because I don't believe the geth or quarians represent true good or evil. However, you believe the geth represent true evil, and the quarians represent true good.

You ignore all good that the geth do, and all evil the quarians are responsible for. Very racist in nature. Your arguments cannot hold water so long as you are so obviously partial to the quarians.

Learn to not be so terribly racist. Then cmoe back. We'll talk more.

Edit: Quoting pulled some interesting shenanigans with line-downs. Perhaps it's not designed for so many quotes. Hopefully the edit fixes it.
[/quote]
Just up front: YOU asked for this.
WARNING: WALL OF TEXT. Corrosponding points are numbered to match the respondint point.

1. Council diplomat: Hello!, we're to attepmpt peacefull negotia-
Geth: (shoots diplomat in head, blows up ship) Not interisted.
Remember this? This only happened dozens of times over 300 years.
The geth killed everyone that ever tried to negotiate with them for 300 years. The shot every single unarmed peace envoy on sight, completely disregarding the open transmissions of non-agression.
"Why do you think they cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy? Why do you think they killed every organic that ever tried to contact them?" - Tali'Zorah, ME1.
You have so much one-sided prejudice, and so little thinking. After 300 years of shooting organic diplomats on sight, you really think that a geth isn't going to be regarded with suspicion? And again, Legion is a geth infiltrator. he says he was shot when he was discovered, meaning he didn't intend to be noticed.

2. Legion's direct admission of the quarian's account being largely the same? Also, here's a news flash for you: the recordings take place BEFORE the Morning War. Therefore, the possible death toll is completely seperate from the Morning War. Also, you are judging 2.1 billion spread across several colonies based on two recordings? That's like assuming that every Cerberus soldier is an alien lover just because Kelly Chambers is.
Also, they arrested all the protesters - that's standard for police to do. And that bomb was in a door breach against what was assumed to be hostile forces, so the death of Magara may have been a complete accident. After all, where is your proof it WAS intended to kill him?
And likewise, how then can YOU make such assertations on the Morning War if "no one knows what happened." Isn't that contridicting yourself?

3. The Heretics didn't exist till 2183, when they met Sovergien. Also, Legion directly states that the Heretics reasons had nothing to do with hatred for organics. They worshiped the "pinnicle" of synthetic evolution that Sovergien was, and wanted to be like it. It had nothing to do with hate for organics - it never did. If anything, it was a lack of emotion for organics that played a part in this. The Heretics wanted to be like Sovergein, and were willing to do anything to atain this shortcut in their evolution.
You are using the Heretics as an excuse for things they were not involved in. And hate of organics didn't exist for any of the geth. They simply didn't care about organics. They didn't hate them, they weren't concerned by them. Organics were not a blip on their radar. That's how it was for 300 years.
Also, when did the geth do ANYTHING to show the galaxy that the Heretics didn't represent them. Give me one example of something the True Geth did to show the galaxy that the Heretics were rouges. The Galaxy DIDN'T know there WAS a split. It's not prejudice or racist if you don't even know that a division exists.

4. Same as above. Heretics didn't exist till 2183. No geth - Heretic or True - had any hate or concern for organics. To further summerize both, the geth's own solitary isolationsim created the image that they were impossible to negotiate with. They killed anyone and everyone that went into the Veil long before there was ever a Heretic split. They simply wanted no assocaition with organics - NONE of the geth did.

5. Legion is an infiltration unit. It says it was disocvered on Eden Prime. Discovered means that you weren't trying to be found. It also says that security was tighter then it expected, meaning that it did not intend to be found. Legion spicifcially says he was sent out to find and observe Shepard. Nothing else. Negotiation was NOT it's reason: observation of Shepard and quiet observayion of organics in general was the goal. It would have otherwise gone to an actual governemnt seat of power, like the Citadel. NOT a colony world.
Also, Legion directly states that it was created for deep reconnicence "behind enemy lines." Why would a negotiation-spicific geth need to "go behind enemy lines" if the goal is diplomacy? Why is it an expert sniper and equiped with weapons and combat algerothims if it's ment to be a diplomat?
Also, there is the fact that you typacaly try to announce when a diplomat is coming to your door. Which the geth never do. The simple truth is that Legion was anything but ment for diplomicy.

6. No one knows there is a difference. The geth never disclaim the Heretics actions as not being their own. Not once. They let them burn a hole through the Attican Traverse. Light up Eden Prime. Assault Feros. Infiltrate Noveria. Besiege the Citadel. And never ONCE do they say "the Heretics do not represent our beliefs. Their actions are not ours." They issued no form of disclaimer, like the Alliance did for Cerberus. The geth NEVER estlabished that they and the Heretics were seperate factions. The geth are the only ones to blame for not establishing the fact that a division existed.

7. Same as above. No disclaimer for their actions. No anncounement of not being tied in any way. No effort what-so-ever to establish to the galaxy that there was a division between the geth. The geth's own fault for not telling anyone. All it took was a simple wide-band boradcast over the extranet, then a few attacks on Heretic holdings to show they were sincere.

8. Again, same as above. No attempt to estlabish to the wider galaxy that there was a division between the geth. The geth's own fault for lack of communication.

9. Again, same as above. To compound my point, a paragraph from the ME2 Codex:
ME2 Codex: Secondary Entries: Non-Council Races: Geth: Culture:
With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Soveregin, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.
Note the bolded. No proven fact aside from their isolation. That means no knowledge about a division between the geth. No knowledge that there were multiple factions. Do you understand? No one knew there was a Heretic split. No one knew that there was a difference. No one knew that the Heretics were different, because the fact that there WAS such a thing as a Heretic faction was unknown.

10. No one knew there WAS an extremist faction, because the geth NEVER established to the galaxy that a split occured.
You act like you are intelligent. How can you not understand something so simple as: No one knows an extremeist faction exists.? It's not that hard to comprehend.

11. Outright false. Legion tells you he was created for deep reconisence behind enemy lines.
He also says that he was ment soley to fing Shepard: www.youtube.com/watch?v=faTgloQg8wc
The only one being dishonest is you. You are the one that can act better then this seemingly ignorant outlook.

12. That's incorrect. No one believed in the Reapers until ME3. Soveregin was assumed to be an advanced prototype geth dreadnought.
Again, incorrect. Geth built servers on Rannoch. Geth megastructure would have rendered the geth incapable of EVER leaving the Tikkun system, or Rannoch. Also, the dyson bubble would absorb the total output of the star, meaning no solar energy would get to Rannoch, killing the plants with lack of energized sunlight, and lack of solar heat, which is normally trasnmitted through energized sunlight, would drop temperatures worldwide. The end result: Rannoch would be completely inhospitable. The quarians would NEVER be able to return. The geth had NO intention of giving Rannoch back to the quarians, or else they would have built the megastructure elsewere. Also, they have been working on it for 264 years, meaning that it was started on 26 years after the end of the Morning War. They didn't work on it instantly. They could have found another world to build it around if they really wanted to return Rannoch.
Incorrect. The Megatsructure DID have defences: miltiple geth stations and the acyompaning fleets. Xen's viral weapon renderd them inopperable. They had the meagstructure defended. The defences were simply rendered useless against the viral weapon of Xen.
Also, Rannoch lists that the number of geth on the planet number in the single-diget billions, with the number of programs being signifigantly higher. That's the number of geth on Rannoch's ground-based servers. The megastructure took thouands of geth with it.
So, to recap. Billions of geth on Rannoch + billions more spread out through the bases on Haestrom and such. Billions minus thousands = death of majority of geth?
What is even the HELL? How do you think taking thousands from billions is death of most of them. The key problem was that all geth communciated through the megastructure. With it gone, all geth were severed from each-other. They could no longer form consensis. It WASN'T that most geth died, since there are billions on Rannoch alone. It's that they were all isolated from actively communing with each-other. Their mind and consensis were fragmented.

13. Again, no one knows this. Geth do not EVER annocunce that Heretics do not represent Ture Geth. No distinction is ever established by the True Geth, so no one ever knows there is a difference.

14. Again, Legion is an infiltration unit ment for reconnenicence behind enemy lines. It is ment to locate Shepard and confim the Commander's death. It is NOT ment to contact organics. It was discovered on Eden Prime, and was not ment to be according to Legion's own words.

15. Shepard is associated with Cerberus, and being tried for blowing up a Mass Relay and killing 300,000 batarians. And for the sake of what the galaxy considers a myth. Right now, Shepard's word isn't worth spit. Hence why they lock the Commander up. So again, right back to square one, which is: No accountible proof that anything Shepard says on the Heretics is true, or that Legion wasn't lying to Shepard. Same scenerio as how Anderson is suspicious of The Illusive Man lying to Shepard, the Alliance has no proof that Legion told Shepard the truth about the Heretics. In other words, back to square one.

16. Again, wrong. Legion is an infiltration unit, spicifically tasked with finding and studying Shepard. Nothing Else.
Megastructure WAS defended by several geth space stations and fleets. Xen's weapons disabled them all.
Again, Billions of geth. Thousands lost on megastructure attack. Billions - thousands does NOT equal "most of race dead." It wouldn't even be a dent. The loss of being able to create consensis is what caused them to panic and join the Reapers. Actual death toll was NOT the majority of geth.

17. Again, the proof that Legion is sencere is.....?
The Alliance and Council's evidence that Legion's word isn't a fabrication is.....?
Nothing. Shepard's word is inadmissible thanks to the Cerberus Ties and the Alpha Relay incident. Legion's word is inadmissible because all there is to go on is Legion's own word. And since the geth STILL haven't disclaimed the Heretics actions as not being represenitive of ther own, guess how much that word is worth,

18. Again, proof that Legion's word isn't a fabrication is?
The problem is that you are instantly assuming that what Shepard knows is common knowledge. News flash: It's NOT.
And EXACTALLY. No one knows about the attack on the Heretic station. That the exact truth.
Nothing Shepard says can be taken at face-value because of the Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay incident. Shepard gave the crew orders to not say anything so that they could all avoid sitting in Alliance interrogation with the Commander. None of the information can be trusted as being legitimate. So NO, the exact truth is that no one knows about the attack on the Heretic Station. In fact, no one even knows the thing exists.
Even if someone did believe, there is zero cooberating evidence. No one is willing to go into geth space to conform the Station exists. There is no recovered data that can be taken as evidence due to the Cerberus crew and such. So there is not only no proof that the station exists, but the very statement of Shepard's was classified top secret. Only high-level people in the Alliance, like Kaiden/Ashley, Anderson, and Hackett know anything about it. The quarians? The Council? The avarage person? NOTHING. They know NOTHING.

19. You proved you were not reasonable or logical long ago. Don't blame me for turning your snide remarks back at you.

20. Again, the Alliance/quarians/Council's proof that anything Legion says is truthfull is.....?
Honestly, WHAT evidence is there that supports anything Legion says beyond blind faith? Nothing. Not one thing. No physical evidence that what Legion says is true.

21. Same as above. No reason what-so-ever to trust the geth platform that was serving on the Cerberus ship with the person tha blew up a Mass Relay. The evidence that does exist far outweighs the word of mouth form Shepard and Legion. So again, no physical proof. Nothing to prove Legion is sencire.

22. Again. One geth. With unconfirmed word. Associated with an esscental terrorest who blew up a Relay and worked with a known terror group (Cerberus). Even disregarding the discraced Commander he's associated with, One geth's word isn't that convincing when placed against 300 years of bloodshead, and the thousands of geth that assaulted the Citadel and the Attican Traverse. If the geth wanted actual diplomatic contact, they would have transmitted messeges across the extranet, then arrainged for actual meet-up with the Council Races.
And once again, Legion is NOT A DIPLOMAT. It is an infiltration and combat unit spicifically ment to find Shepard. Nothing else. It was shot after being caught infiltrating Eden Prime. And even after Shepard turns himself/herslef over to the Alliance, what does Legion do? Hightail it back to geth space. he only ever keeps in contact with Tali through messages. Which he himslef cuts contact with.
So much intellectual denial and headcannon. It's unbecoming of you. You're better then that.

23. Again, Legion is not proof. He isn't a diplomat. His word has no physical proof. And he is associated with a person who blew up a Relay and worked with terrorists.

24. Again, Legion is not proof. He isn't a diplomat. His word has no physical proof. And he is associated with a person who blew up a Relay and worked with terrorists.

25 Again, Legion is not proof. He isn't a diplomat. His word has no physical proof. And he is associated with a person who blew up a Relay and worked with terrorists.

26. Again, Legion is not proof. He isn't a diplomat. His word has no physical proof. And he is associated with  aperson who blew up a Relay and worked with terrorists.
One MORE thing: Legion is assumed to be a trophy bot with no free will. Therefore, it's assumed to be a "fake geth." One more reason that nothing it says can be taken as proof: NO ONE THINKS IT'S A REAL GETH. So, add THAT hurdle to the above. Even if people knew Legion wasn't a trophy bot, they still would not take Legion at it's word. The geth wanted peace? They should have sent an envoy and transmitted a request to meet on neutral ground. You know, the same thing all the peace emvoys the geth killed asked to do?.

27. Again, same as above. Legion was NOT sent as a diplomat. Legion's word has no backing aside from a person under tribunal for blowing up a Relay and siding with Cerberus. Legion is assumed to be a reprogrammned trophy bot and not a real geth.
No proof of Legion's sencerity. Also, 300 years of actively killing everyone ELSE that tried to negotiate kinda disuaded the quarians from doing it.

28. Again, NO announcement was made by the True Geth regarding the Heretics not representing them. If they wanted people to know, they should have put out a transmission over the extranet and asked for offical audiance with the Council. They never did. Legion was NOT created to be a diplomat: It was an infiltrator.
Your ways of thinking are headcannon-based, prejudiced, and generally filled with insults. Sorry.

29. The Alliance did with Cerberus. The Salarians did with the Leauge of One. The Turians did with the Taetrus Revolusionists. They issued disclaimers to their rouges AND actively did something about it. Geth: Nada.
Again, Legion did NOTHING to convince the public. It told Shepard in private. With zero physical evidence to back any of it up.

30 Again, Legion was never created to be a diplomat. It was an infiltrator, period. It's mission was the location and study of Shepard. Nothing less. Legion never tells any orgnaic government this split. The geth never make any attempt to publicly broadcast the fact that there was a Heretic split. That was NOT Legion's job, nor did the geth try to do anything to correct the negitive public opinions of them.  If that's what Legion wanted, Legion should have gone to the Council and told them. (they still wouldn't have believed him, as shown here:www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lJ5zUKrrVI
Because guess what? NO PROOF)

31. Again. WRONG. Legion was NOT a diplomat. It was an infiltrator. It had zero physical proof to back it's word. No one is going to trust a single member of a race at war with them. Certinly not on word of mouth.
You are akining Legion to something that He himself spicifcially says he is not. Therefore you are blatently lying. How unbecoming of you.

32. Legion himself says he is a deep reconnicence unit ment for prolonged time behind enemy lines. He was ment to locate Shepard and observe and study the Commander. He is NOT a diplomatic represenitive of his people, nor does he have ANY physical proof of his senerity.
Your repetition of lies isn't going to magically make Legion a diplomat.

33. No. This was LONG before Legion was built. 300 years they let this fester. And after the Heretics attack, they do what? Noithing to correct it. And again, Legion is NOT a diplomat, and has ZERO evidence of it's senciraty. He has zero credidence, because no one knows about the Heretic station, no one knows anything about the geth beyond the veil, and the only backer of his word is a person on trial for mass genocide and working with terrorists.
So AGAIN, nothing to show or prove the Heretics didn't represent the Ture Geth, because Legions interactions are not public knowledge, nor validifiable.

34. Look at the circumstance.
Legion/One Geth = few.
Citadel attackers/Thousands of geth = many.
Logical responce = what the hell makes this one geth any more represenitive of his people then the ones that attacked the Citadel?
You just disporved yourself while validating your opposing point with the "few vs many" example. That's not easy to do on accident.

35. Again, completely wrong. Legion is an infilrtator ment to find Shepard. Nothing else.
Legion has zero proof that his word is sincere, or that he's even a real geth and not a reprogramed trophy bot.
Legion says he was discovered on Eden Prime by hightened security. He didn't intend to be found.
No one else in the galaxy has any reason to take the blind leap of faith Shepard does. Especally since the Cerberus ties, Alpha Relay incident and ravings about the Reapers have painted the Commander as a madman to the rest of the galaxy.
Sorry, but simple logic doesn't support your overly simplistic viewpoint. You don't account for social responce, burden of evidence, or even political standpoint. No one in the galaxy is going to consider one geth any more a represenitive of his people then the thosuands of geth that shot the Citadel to hell. If the geth wanted to get a message out, they would have put out a public message asking for an audiance, coupled with a requst for an audiance with the Coucil on neutral ground, with physical evidence that they are sincere.

36. NO. Again, Legion DIDN'T. He was NOT sent out as a diplomat. He has zero proof, zero credibility, and no backers save for the Commander under tribunal for genocide, mass destruction, and terrorist connections.

37. NO. They did NONE of that via Legion. They made no attemps to contact the Council, or make public the knowledge that there was a split between factions. There is no proof that Legion's word is sencire. There isn't even any proof that Legion is an authentic geth, and not just the trophy bot everyone assumes it as. No one in the Alliance, the Council, and certinly not the Quarian Migrant Fleet, is going to believe that a single geth is any more represenitive of it's people then the thosuands that shot up the Citadel.

38. Again. One geth. No proof of truthful words. Not even any proof that he isn't a trophy bot that Shepard recovered/Cerberus gifted.

39. AGAIN. Legion isn't a diplomat. Legion was not ment to do anything about the Heretics. Legion was ment to track down Shepard. Legion isn't even assumed to be a real geth. Council has no proof it's sincere. Council has no proof it's not a trophy bot. Council has no proof it represents it's people any more then the geth that attacked the Citadel did.

40. Quarians majority agreed to do that. After all, Hackett and Udina orderd the same thing done to all HUMAN civilian ships. And since they were going into the Veil, the geth would have targeted the ships anyway. Having arms would NOT have stopped the geth from shooting. The only requariement the geth need to shoot is "it's in the Perseus Veil." That's all they need. Not arming the liveships would not have made them aly less a target. And they planned to fight the Reapers afterword, so they would have needed them anyway.
And again, quarians do something after majority vote confirms action. Majority of quarians agreed to arm liveships. Admiralty cannon force action without unanimous consent.

41. WRONG.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcPhA_QfvQ
Play at 3:40. Gerrel says "we almost had the votes."  The war plan was put to vote among the quarians. The majoriy was already leaning that way in ME2. They went all the way in ME3.
Also, Tali directly tells you in ME1 that the Admiralty Board cannot force the Migrant Fleet into a spicifci course of action without being in unanimous consent. After which, all five Admirals must stand down and retire from the board. This wasn't the case.
Ergo, the information is completely correct. The Migrant Fleet went to war based on a majoriy vote among all the quarian ships and the Conclave.

42. umm... that was my POINT. Quarian law forbids Admiral Gerrel from forcing the Migrant Fleet into war unless the other four Admirals agree with him. They don't, meaning that YOUR assertation about the military forcing the fleet into war has been shot out of the sky. The Conclave - quarian senete, which polls the war among every single quarian ship - voted in the majority to going to war. Therefore, the majority of the quarians willingly agreed to fight. So, NO. The only plothole is in YOUR assumption of military dictatorship.

43. Wrong. It was because the geth painted themselves as monsters and did nothing to change the public opinion of themselves. They damned themselves in the eyes of the galaxy.
And before you try it, Legion was NOT diplomat, had NO proof of being sencire, and wasn't even able to prove he wasn't a trophy bot to anyone. The Council, quarians, and Alliance have no reason to trust him.

44. WRONG. Actually, it's validated by Tali in ME1, who spicifcalyy states that the Admirals can't force the fleet to do something without all agreeing to it. Otherwise, it must be put to vote among all ships.

45. Again, no proof Legion is sincere. No proof that it represents the geth any more then the ones that attacked the Citadel did.
Plus, 300 years of killing everyone that got close to then discouraged that idea.

46. Wrong. No reason to trust Legion. No credibility because of association with Cerberus-connected, Genocide-accused Shepard. And again, Legion is one geth being compaired to the thousands that attacked the Citadel, literally a comparison of few vs many, with everyone seeing Legion as the few, and the Citadel attackers as the many. The True Geth sending an actual envoy to a neutral area to meet with the Council and quarians would have been how to do it. As is, Legion was not sent with any form of diplomicy in mind, so the geth appearintly couldn't have cared less about that.

47. WRONG.
Planitary discription lists the number of geth platforms on Rannoch reaching the single-digit billions, with signifigantly higher numbers of programs on the servers installed on-planet. HARDLY unoccupied.
As said before, compleation of the dyson bubble would result in the complete loss of solar energy in the sunlight reaching Rannoch, dropping temperatures worldwide and killing the majority of the plant life, which has likely been struggling ever since the quarians left.
Megastructure had several stations around it, plus majorituy of geth fleet. Hardly defensless. Xen's weapons disabled all defenses.

Alud - I just shot your arguement so full of holes it's swiss cheese. You need to realize that your arguements are full of headcannon, misconception, and in some cases, outright lying. Your thinking is entirely based on prejudice, without accounting for any of the factors that normal people would. You are ANYTHING but impartial.
And again, your ultimate failure - akkining what I listed as the COUNCIL, ALLIANCE, and QUARIAN's views on the geth as mine. I listed that the above is how the rest of the galaxy perceves the geth.
This may surprise you, but I am Pro-synthetic. I believe synthetics are living beings. I believe they have rights. What I've done above is show why no one else believed so, and why they are sceptical, and above all, that while they have rights, they are not the gospels - the abused cherubs - that you preach them as.

You single-handedly ignore all the geth's faults, and all the quarians misfortunes, and refuse to admit that all the good the geth did came after Shepard had to personally straighten out both sides. You have NEVER ONCE admitted any falt to the geth, or any good to the quarians. EXTREMELY prejudcied and racist in nature, as you are blined and cemented in headcannon to be partial to the geth and the geth alone. Not a single drop of water was held in your arguements, which failed to poke a single hole in my arguement.

Learn not to lie, dodge, be prejudiced and racist and worshiping of headcannon, and THEN cone back to me about this.