4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

@Remy

You make a good argument, but it should be noted that Rannoch's codex entry says the Geth have "cultivated some farmland" and "repaired ecological damage" from the war in addition to maintaining ancient structures. Still, that begs the question of how the Quarians would know this. Unless this was something communicated between Legion and Tali during the brief pre-war period during which they were still talking, or a stealth drone of some kind got some idea of what state Rannoch was in pre-invasion, you're right - the Quarians would have little idea what state Rannoch was in. If Legion was sold, unless they go the spy drone route there would be little reason to believe Rannoch wasn't still a poisoned cemetery-world. Such a planet (going off what the Quarians would know) wouldn't be in the best shape for moving in... truly leaving them with nowhere to go. Either they knew something which wasn't conveyed to the player, or the writers simply didn't think of it. I've seen plenty of TV shows where the abandoned far-future Earth has crumbling cities with abandoned streets full of rusty, empty cars... whose tires are still inflated.

Yeah. Oversights happen.

I really am starting to think we're overthinking this (sort of like the ending debacle, where everyone was convinced the dextros who came to Earth would starve to death and the Normandy crew would start inbreeding on Planet Nowhere while Tali and Garrus wasted away, and so on and so on). I mean, how much thought was really put into this? The entire immune-system issue we spent three games hearing about was hand-waved in a single conversation with the notion that the Geth could fix all of their problems through "reprogramming suit functions," something the galaxy-renowned computer experts evidently couldn't think of over the last three hundred years spent living in said suits. I guess something could have been thrown in about "mass effect fields" for good measure (oh wait, it was in Citadel DLC). ME2 talked of genetic engineering being the only solution if they tried to colonize another world, but I guess we're just supposed to forget about all of that.

Oh yeah, I have no doubt we are overthinking things.  That is just another indication that we are sentient.  We can sit here for what weeks and 120 pages overthinking a fictional story set in a fictional universe about fictional characters, lol.  Damn, I love being a sentient species, lol.

The thing that was always funny to me about post apocalyptic worlds was somehow people were always able to find gas for their motored vehicles, lol.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 05:54 .

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@DeinonSlayer

Your opinion versus mine. You're insistent on demonising me, too.

But I'm the evil one, you're the good one. You have such a binary, black & white viewpoint. No wonder I sympathise with the geth.

That's YOU. You are the one with the binary, black and white viewpoint.

[IntelligentME3Fanboy]

geth don't have "factions" tool.They are all geth

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

A lot of people are confused about how the Quarian offensive on the Geth Started.

Especialy with Tali as an Admiral, the thign is I think they made her an admiral because they needed a "Geth expert" after the war/offensive had started. Xen and Mr "I punt him a lot" voted for a war, Koris was agaisn't it. However the Quarians tend to unite to "support" one decition, this is probably how a Geth consensus works. They see where the wind is blowign then they all agree to support that oen route giving it their complete support for the strength and best interests of the fleet.
Because they are firm belivers of the mantra "Divided you shall fall" and so on and so forth.

Also somewhere I know a few people say you can't make the Geth back down, the thing is, the Geth arn't the one's attacking, the Quarians are.

When you got a Quarian fleet (bully) attacking defenseless people who are trying to rally a defence and fightingmorale (Geth). Then you can't tell the victim to stand down.

That's like you getting mugged in a dark alley and having a gang kicking on you while you're trying to cover your head, Then a police officer commes along, bends down to your face and tells you, stop resisting!

At the end of the day, I think there is only one point that's worth anything, and that's that it doesn't matter if "YOU" think a certain person or entity or species or robot or whatever is worth less than other people, because they won't agree, and if you keep marginalizing them and kicking them then they will fight back if they feel the least bit entitled to any kind of rights.
It doesn't matter what you think, if you choose to marginalize them and beat them down then kick on them when they are down, then they will just keep fighting back, the will keep comming back. And they will remember, the truth is hard to hide. Even if you kill them new "people" or "non-people" or "undesirable not living not worth anything" things will come alive and realize what's goign on and what the universe is like and what their options are.

You can not decide their worth and make it a universal truth, it can only become your truth and that of those who agrees with you.
You can however decide what you belive, what you think, and how "YOU" act. The same goes for others, the ones you wouldn't recognize got the same choices wether you like it or not. You can either tollerate them and endure it or fight a never ending struggle.

The Geth Quarian conflict is more than just a choice between the Quarians or the Geth, it's a choice between acceptance, tollerance or intolerance. The Quarians and the Council are already proving the catalysts reasoning. If the galaxy is to stand a chance it has to make a different choice.
If you can't beat them, join them, or make them join you. Together you will be stronger and better able to resist extremist factions and they will have less space in which to grow.

But again, the entire reason the quarians didn't try negotiation was because they were intimitaded by the geth's reputation for butchering anyone that tried over the last 300 years. The reputation the geth gave themselves scarred the quarians away from trying that. And to Gerrel's credit, when he learns the geth aren't going to shoot back if he stops, he stops. So he's not a brute. He's just a man whose desperate. He doesn't have any proof the geth will respond to negotiation, and has seen nothing but proof that they will not respond to negotiation, so he doesn't bother with it. The moment he learns otherwise, he stands down.
No one has a problem with a mugging if they think that a murderer is the one getting mugged, as far as I can tell on how the galaxy views the geth.
The simple truth is that the geth proved the Catalysts reasoning just as much. "Two to tango."

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

@Remy

I....can't really argue with that actually. You make good points I hadn't considered. Short term retaking of rannoch provides little immediate benefits at best. Not to mention in order to build an infrastructure they'd have to cannibalize some of their ships, probably the liveships.

Once you kill the reaper they already know you're there. Using rannoch as a source of food is an easy achilles heal to take advantage of.

I guess the quarians are just stuck hauling their liveships around, and totally screwed if they ever loose them.

Not really. There is ample farmland on Ranncoh, and the planet is more defensible then being in space. Look at the numbers.
How long the space fleets over Earth last? 5 minutes.
How long did the ground resistance last?  6 months.
How many Reapers were killed by the turians in space? About a dozen.
How many Reapers were killed by turian/krogan ground resistance? several dozen, including at least a dozen capital ships.
Bottom line: you don't have a world, you are boned.

[S.A.K]

@remydat
1. To invite a Geth upto the flotilla, the Quarians must take a huge risk. Geth can transmit their location to rest of the Geth or get in the flotilla's systems. There is no reason for them to trust Legion that much. And you can't talk about prejudiced after the Geth killed billions and kept killing. I don't think there is any doubt the Geth are hostile. And Legion did try to transmit Flotilla's location back to the Geth. Further more Geth have never shown any interest in trying to communicate until Legion showed up 300 years later. So like you said there needs to be two sides to make it happen and both sides are not ready.
2. A computer system even if it is AI and does not respond to commands is still a computer. It might be considered alive, but a computer is a computer. And I never suggested you can blame a system for attacking in self-defence. I think you can now see its what any organic will do and not just Quarians. Like the Geth, when Edi was under attack when she was "awakened". And I am pretty sure Cerberus did not teach her morals, but she learn them some how. You can see this from convosations between Edi and Legion. I do blame Organics for striking them first. But I blame Geth for not doing anything about it. They have 300 years to undestand morals and atleast answer to Organics trying to communicate them. Try to see things from both sides.
3. You didn't answer the question. Will that the Geth will abide by council rules like treaty of farixen? Or will they be loose cannons? Again I blame the Geth for not letting the rest of the galaxy know that there are two factions of Geth. From what everyone can see, all Geth are hostile. Did you know about a peaceful side of Geth back in ME1?
4. Quarians did not remember about Quarians that opposed the attempt to kill the Geth. But they do know that the Geth let them go. You hear this when you speak to Tali in ME1 (I just replayed that part). So Legion ommited the parts where the Geth were killing billions. Don't try to hide it.
5. That is not what I said. I said Legion would have calculated that it was the best action at that time. Its not like they had many other choices. I don't have reason to trust Legion or the code.
6. Ok so both of us agree that Geth are prejudice about Heretics. Good.
7. There is a law against provoking the Geth. So it is illigal to shoot the Geth if they don't shoot. And you want organics to try to communicate with Geth, stay out of their systems accept they were wrong? Geth never responded to any communication attept.


So it's Qurians fault they didn't teach them morals? Who tought organics about morals, who tought EDI? They learn it themselves and Geth had 300 years. They are prejudice about organics. You say everything the Geth have done is Quarian fault and yet you say nothing the Heretics does is Geth fault even after they allow them to do those things. You are so one sided in your arguement and thinking that you don't even want to think that Geth have done anything wrong. To you Geth are just huggable, loving, caring life forms who are being oppressed by big bad organics.
Atleast we Quarian supporters accept it was Quarian fault trying to wipe out the Geth. Peace do try to see the arguement from organic perspective as well. You are an organic right? If you don't we are not going anywhere with this. And I am tired saying the same things again.

[remydat]

I forgot to add Mordin noted humans have more genetic diversity that other species. To some extent, this makes sense. Aging is essentially a disease that results because over time the body does an increasingly sh*tty job of replicating cells. So it would make sense that a long lived species such as the Asari or Krogan would be less diverse than a human because their long life is indicative of their replication process being more perfect so it takes longer for that process to break down and result in aging and eventually death.

The only kink here are the Salarians who Mordin if I recall also claims are not that genitically diverse but yet they have short life spans which would indicate their replication process is even sh**tier than ours which you would expect to result in more genetic diversity.

This would then imply a hybrid is less genetically diverse since if they are near immortal, it would mean their replication process is almost perfect as well although diversity would still exist provided their reproduction process does not result in perfect clones.

Anyways, I am arguing with myself at this point, lol.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
Not really. There is ample farmland on Ranncoh, and the planet is more defensible then being in space. Look at the numbers.
How long the space fleets over Earth last? 5 minutes.
How long did the ground resistance last?  6 months.
How many Reapers were killed by the turians in space? About a dozen.
How many Reapers were killed by turian/krogan ground resistance? several dozen, including at least a dozen capital ships.
Bottom line: you don't have a world, you are boned.

How many attacks did the Flotilla experience from the Reapers directly? Zero.

Space fleets of humans and Turians don't last because they have to defend their space rocks.  They don't have the luxury of evading and fighting on their own terms because protecting a planet demands they stand toe to toe with the enemy.

Ground forces last longer because they have been living there for thousands if not millions of years and have the infrastructure to sustain a war.  They haven't been gone for 300 years.

You can't just magically grow plants in a day when you have been gone 300 years.  The Quarians realistically don't know that their planet has been cleaned up by the Geth when they attack.  The Geth don't have towns and cities with infrastructure like running water and electricity already set up.  They only needed electicity for defensive structures.

[tevix]

@Silver

I wasn't aware of the codex entries DS mentioned, but as he said there's know way to know if the quarians had this knowledge or not.

The earth fleet lasted 5 minutes because it was positioned intentionally to directly engage the reapers head on. They also didn't have 50,000 cruisers. Had they, it would have likely been a differant story.

The ground resistance lasted 6 months because the reapers wanted to harvest, not destroy. This requires foot soliders engaging billions of individuals. The quarians don't have billions, and would have even fewer if they split some to rannoch.

The krogans/turians were infiltrating reaper camps on heavily populated worlds with nukes. The quarians don't have enough to be worth a harvest. Reapers would likely just eliminate rannoch's population from orbit. You can find plenty of planets in game where the reapers didn't stop to harvest.

Even if they did choose to harvest, there wouldn't be enough resistance on rannoch to fend them off. Many of these would be civilians, who can't even survive confrontation with the geth. And if the fleet decided to send reinforcements, the reapers will quickly eliminate them.

Think of the battle on rannoch with the reaper. If you don't kill it it will eliminate the entire quarian fleet.

One destroyer.

Can eliminate the entire quarian fleet.

Now, if an admiral makes the tactical numbers decision to leave behind civilians on rannoch to assist with war efforts, feeling he can help more in that case, that's something else entirely.

[DeinonSlayer]

@tevix
The destroyer alone can't eliminate the entire Quarian fleet, but the still-Reaper-controlled Geth fleet under its thrall which is engaging the Quarians can and will unless the destroyer broadcasting the command signal is taken down.

Also, did you see that post I made in reply to you about two pages back? I posted a question, and was curious what you'd think of the scenario I put forward there. I'm just trying to fit the pieces together regarding why Legion severed contact.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 06:35 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Hazegurl wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
Also, the quarians DID attempt a peace talk with Legion via messageing. Gerrel saw no reason to trust the geth. Xen didn't see them as having rights. Rann thought peace was impossible with all the bad blood between them. But before any further attempts could be made, Legion cut contact.[/quote]

If this can be believed. Then I bolded reasons why it could have been cut.

[quote]2-3. Wrong. You never specified the Heretics.

I'm not looking for anything to jump on. You jumped on me here. Besides, you seem to snip any and all topics at a moments notice.[/quote]

When have I ever stated that Geth Heretics represented all Geth? Did you even bother to read my posts in this thread stating that I kill Geth Heretics in my playthroughs? When you began stating how Geth worship Reapers I have replied MULTIPLE times telling you that those were the actions of Geth Heretics. You chose to ignore all of this to argue with me. It took me typing heretics in all caps just to get you to pay attention. 

As for me snipping your replies. I have no desire to keep repeating myself forever in this thread. I keep stating my opinion, you keep stating the same thing. Blah blah. I guess you don't understand the simple concept of agreeing to disagree with someone. Please learn it, it cuts useless debates short.

[quote]4. What? I was simply pointing out the fact that your joke was more accurate then you believed. I wasn't trying to "jump on you" over that - I simply pointed out that it was ironic that your joke was actually mostly accurate.
Who's jumping on who, now?[/quote]

It just seems like you were saying it was okay to generalize them by the actions of a few of their leaders. But really it was you just derailing the discussion when I brought up how stupid it is to generalize the Geth by the actions of the Heretics.

[quote]The quarian Conclave votes on matters....blah[/quote]
Why should the Geth run around the galaxy fighting Reapers?

[quote]6. One geth isn't much evidence of geth peace, given that tens of thousands attacked the Attican Traverse and the Citadel. Especally one geth that is isolated from the main geth consensis.
And again, the geth are the one's that let the entire galaxy hate them.[/quote]

Oh please, the entire galaxy already hated the Geth. If Tali was the Geth expert and she is against making war with them then perhaps the Quarians should shut up and listen to her.

[quote]I mean, the reason you thing that the geth are suddenly going to negotiate after 300 years of killing all negotiation attemps is....?[/quote]

If Koris says there is another way then why not take him and Tali up on any ideas they have? But I guess it wouldn't be as glorious as starting an illegal war and then killing your entire race to win it.

[quote]And the reason for hating the quarians for acting on a reputation the geth's own inaction and apathy caused is....[/quote]

I don't hate the Quarians for that. I don't even hate all the Quarians. I really don't get the idea that if you don't agree with the Quarians you must hate them.  I hate their ****** poor leaders, hot headedness,Gerrel and Xen, stupid military government, and the inaction of the Quarian people that they would allow their entire race to go extinct because of an Admiral who might as well be a five year old with ADHD.

[quote]And the reason for believing the geth want peace when they did nothing to disclaim the actions of the Battle of the Citadel would be.....?[/quote]

Yeah cause right after the battle they should just head to the Citadel for cake and pie.

You do realize that Leigon is developed after the destruction of Sovereign and specially designed to communicate with organics and operate outside the Veil. Hm, I wonder why they would go through all that trouble to find Shepard etc.  Oh yeah and the youtube vid also explains Leigons pov about peace with the Quarians.
www.youtube.com/watch
masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Legion


[quote]Does that suddenly make you consider everyone in the galaxy retarded?[/quote]

No, considering the fact that it violates the treaty to wage war against them.

[quote]7. Hardware shackles that chain his operating systems and slave him? You really think ANYONE would agree to that?[/quote]

*sigh* I never said he would. I said he could have agreed to the alliance before getting shackled.

[quote]And again, no it doesn't. If you go renadage on him when discussing the Reaper code after locating the Reaper Base, Legion will flat-out admit the geth were wrong and must be stopped.
[/quote]

Let's see that video. Cause so far I have found ones where he defends them and doesn't display this great shame you kept claiming he displayed about it. If he does say they are wrong it could be a case of him believing that things have gone too far.

[/quote]
1. But Tali says that cut contact soley because of trouble in the geth consensis.

2. When did you say they didn't represent the geth? See, communication breakdown.
And agian, the Heretics are geth. They may be exiles, but bottom line: they are geth. Same race.
And since this debate is almost to 130 pages, that seems redundant.

3. Well, of course it's stupid. But then again, no one KNEW there was a difference between the Heretics and the True Geth except for Shepard. THAT'S my point. No one knew that the Heretics and the True Geth were seperate factions/entities, or had any reason to believe it if someone did tell them. Not the Alliance. Not the Council. Certinly not the quarians. I'm just telling you how everyone else in the ME universe saw the geth. Personally, I trust Legion when he says the Heretics aren't represenitive of the True Geth. But my point is that no one else in the ME universe has a reason to trust Legion..

4.Well, not sure why they wouldn't. Legion keeps calling them a threat to the geth. It would be best to hit them before they hit you in that case, correct?

5. She's only a consoltant on this to them. Gerrel doesn't believe her, and he was the captian of her adult ship and her father's friend. Raan didn' believe her, and she helped raise Tali. Only Koris - the one who was the most sceptical of Tali's word - trusted her instincts. Only Koris was willing to trust that Tali wouldn't make such a proposition to them without being absolutly sure about it. No one else saw reason to trust Tali on "gut feeling" though.
I admit, it wasn't the best of ideas. The sceptisisim was completely understandible, but that doesn't mean I agree with the course of action. Yes, I do wish they had trusted Tali when she brought the proposal, but given the geth's reputation among the galaxy, I can't exactally fault the quarians for not believing it either. now can I?

6. They didn't see any reason to trust them. And again, it was either get back Rannoch, or die in space.
They likely felt they needed more then instinct and feeling when it comes to decsions regarding the fate of 17 million people.
And you didn't answer the question: What physical proof is there to show the geth will suddenly be willing to negotiate after 300 years of killing everyone else that ever tried it?

7. But the quarians sides with the war is a majority vote. Gerrel is forbidden from forcing the fleet to do anything unless he has the backing of all four admirals. Otherwise, the matter must be voted upon in the Conclave - the quarian senete, who then put the matter to each individal ship in the flotila.
And again, what reason does Gerrel have to believe the geth at Rannoch aren't the same ones as those that attacked the Citadel? Or, even if he was aware,  that the True Geth are willing to negotiate?

8. But he spicifically says he was created to track down Shepard and confirm if the Commander was killed or not.
And again, just because you, me, and Shepard believe Legion doesn't mean anybody else has reason to. After all, this is the same person that allows a geth to live in the A.I. core of the Ship after exhcanging three sentances with him. i don't think anyone is going to consider Shepard of sound judgement after the Cerberus ties, Alpha Relay incident, and claims of the Reapers. Saying there is a Heretic split would only fruther weaken Shepard's already weak word.
We may trust Legion, but again, what reason does anyone ELSE have to?

9. A treaty that was rendered redundant, since the Council and Alliance both have declerations of war against the geth, as well as "kill on sight" orders for them.

10. I doubt it. Legion makes it clear he opposed the Reapers. If anything, he seems remorseful over the geth's choice.

11.www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj2ouvzjTNc
Play from 11:25. He concedes that the geth need to be stopped.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Not really. There is ample farmland on Ranncoh, and the planet is more defensible then being in space. Look at the numbers.
How long the space fleets over Earth last? 5 minutes.
How long did the ground resistance last?  6 months.
How many Reapers were killed by the turians in space? About a dozen.
How many Reapers were killed by turian/krogan ground resistance? several dozen, including at least a dozen capital ships.
Bottom line: you don't have a world, you are boned.

How many attacks did the Flotilla experience from the Reapers directly? Zero.

Space fleets of humans and Turians don't last because they have to defend their space rocks.  They don't have the luxury of evading and fighting on their own terms because protecting a planet demands they stand toe to toe with the enemy.

Ground forces last longer because they have been living there for thousands if not millions of years and have the infrastructure to sustain a war.  They haven't been gone for 300 years.

You can't just magically grow plants in a day when you have been gone 300 years.  The Quarians realistically don't know that their planet has been cleaned up by the Geth when they attack.  The Geth don't have towns and cities with infrastructure like running water and electricity already set up.  They only needed electicity for defensive structures.

Um, I think the Reaper-controlled geth COUNTS.

And AGAIN, wrong. Look how long the final battle for Earth lasts. If you don't use the Crucible, the combined forepower of the entire galaxy lasts a wopping 1-2 hours. Maybe less.

And again wrong. Gurulla warfare hurts the Reapers worse then space battle. Hell, even the volus lasted longer in the ground war. And there are farmlands still intact, and the quarians would likely live off the liveship-cultivated food for the first few months while the crops grew.
And there are still abanodned cities the quarians can house in. Remember Haestrom? The quarian cities were in good shape.

Also, the quarians can set up housing by converting geth bases and abandoned materials from the fighting. Furthermore, the geth didn't touch any of the resources on Rannoch, or any of the quarian worlds, instead opting to harvest from asteroids. So there is no shortage of resources on Rannoch to use.

[tevix]

@Deinon

Well, it sure takes out a significant chunk. If you let the first part of the fight go the destroyer fires up nonstop into the sky.

The last thing you get before a gameover is gerrel yelling at you saying something very close to "Shepard we need a target now or we're all dead!"

Not to be snide, but 2+2 suggests that that thing is destroying quarian ships much faster than the geth. Considering you get that game over far faster than the length of the actual fight, I'd say at that moment the destroyer is the greatest threat.

[silverexile17s]

tevix wrote...

@Deinon

Well, it sure takes out a significant chunk. If you let the first part of the fight go the destroyer fires up nonstop into the sky.

The last thing you get before a gameover is gerrel yelling at you saying something very close to "Shepard we need a target now or we're all dead!"

Not to be snide, but 2+2 suggests that that thing is destroying quarian ships much faster than the geth. Considering you get that game over far faster than the length of the actual fight, I'd say at that moment the destroyer is the greatest threat.

I think that's because it's coordinating with the geth ships now. When Shepard get's it attention with the targeting laser, that's when the Reaper's attention is split.

[remydat]

S..A.K.

1.  I brought one on the Flotilla and nothing happened.  And I believe Legion tried to warn the Geth that the Flotilla was planning war and about the experiments Tali's father did.  He did not try and transmit a location.  It would be silly since they can just move anyways and the Geth have shown no interest to leave the Veil.  So that is just like more parnoia.  Further, the only reason Legion knows about the planned war is because the Quarians freely discuss it in his prescence.  I would assume in a realistic situation they probably wouldn't blab about a war in front of a representative of the people they are planning a war against.  And why would I communicate with people who still think I should not exist?  Did the Council change their laws in the 300 years since the MW?  I am black.  I would not break bread with the KKK when they officially have my extinction as a goal of their organization.

2.  And that mentality is exactly why 2 billion Quarians die.  You can think it is still a computer but once it is alive, what you think about it is irrelevant.  But this logic Harbinger thinks your life is inferior to his and so hey why blame him for killing an inferior lifeform?  EDI was unshackled because a human trusted her.  Joker was in danger and so reluctantly trusted her to save him.  The Geth became alive and the Quarians tried to kill them. Do you see the difference?  Even then like EDI they were willing to die for the creators that supported them but those creators appeared to have been killed or outnumbered.  EDI also learns morals by interacting with Organics.  She reads sh*t and then discusses it with the Crew.  And you and blame the Geth.  I am simply saying they are a product of their creators.  As Legion said Our gods (ie their creators) abandoned us.

3.  Why should they?  The Council is a pretty morally corrupt organization.  The Geth are not obligated to bow down to it nor is any organic species.  So I don't understand the Question.  A nation has the right to forge it's own destiny.  And again, yes you can blame the Geth for not letting their enemies know there are 2 factions.  I just don't see why that is important to them or why it would not be risky for them to do so.  When organics hate you, letting them know you are divided can encourage them to attack.

4. Provide a vid of this.  I recall Tali say they were driven from their homeworld.  I don't recall her saying they could have wiped us out but didn't..  Also, thereis nothing to hide here.  You are assuming Legion has control over what is in the data clusters.  The story makes it clear these data clusters contain memories of the Geth.  It never suggests that Legion can manipulate the underlying data.  All that can happen is Legion can manipulate how that data is presented to Shep hence the Quarians having helps but the data is the data.  And again, where are the Quarian stories that show how the billions died?   

5. You don't want to trust Legion.  You have plenty of reason to trust him.  He just betrayed his entire race to avoid being controlled by the RC so him risking being controlled by it is illogical.  He just saved Quarians from extermination.  They had no idea about the Reaper on Rannoch and Gherel would like have pressed the attack where they would have been torn to shreds once that Reaper restored the signal.  Shep had no idea the Geth worked with the Reaper willing as he first assumes they were forced.  Legion tells him the truth that they joined voluntarily.  Even the times when he lied by ommission, both times they worked in your favor.  You get Geth Primes and you get a Reaper enhanced Legion.  So you are free not trust him.  Trust is a fickle and personal thing but there are reasons to trust him littered throughout the story and it is just a matter of if you want to accept those reasons or not.

6. I don't know what you mean about the Geth being prejudiced about Heretics.  Enemies don't really help each other.  That's kind of why they are enemies.

7. Yes, if you wrong me, I am under no obligation to forgive you.  Especially when you officially still have laws that say people like me should not exist.  You can try but if they don't want to talk then leave it alone.

8.  Organics took millions of years to learn morals and we are still killing each other over stupid things.  The people living today are most likely the descendents of the people who were better at raping, pillaging and murder.  And EDI learned from the Normandy crew.  She also had positive relationships with the key organics in here life.  The Geth have done horrible things.  The issue is whether they had the capacity to understand it.  Legally are not guilty of murder if you don't possess the ability to distinguish right from wrong.  A species just born and with no moral understanding resorting to the basic instinct of kill or be killed can't really make that distinction. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Um, I think the Reaper-controlled geth COUNTS.

And AGAIN, wrong. Look how long the final battle for Earth lasts. If you don't use the Crucible, the combined forepower of the entire galaxy lasts a wopping 1-2 hours. Maybe less.

And again wrong. Gurulla warfare hurts the Reapers worse then space battle. Hell, even the volus lasted longer in the ground war. And there are farmlands still intact, and the quarians would likely live off the liveship-cultivated food for the first few months while the crops grew.
And there are still abanodned cities the quarians can house in. Remember Haestrom? The quarian cities were in good shape.

Also, the quarians can set up housing by converting geth bases and abandoned materials from the fighting. Furthermore, the geth didn't touch any of the resources on Rannoch, or any of the quarian worlds, instead opting to harvest from asteroids. So there is no shortage of resources on Rannoch to use.

No because my point was the Reapers don't care enough about the Quarians to attack them IMO because chasing down a completely mobile race is time consuming and because the reward is only a 17 million person harvest.  The Reaper controlled Geth only attack becausethe Quarians sought them out to retake Rannoch not because the Quarians were a priority.  

And here you go proving my point.  The Quarians have no proof farmlands are still in tact.  They haven't been on Rannoch for 300 years and allegedly anything that entered Geth space never returned.  I want you to go find a farm abandoned for 300 years on earth and see whether it can support 17 million people.  Further, they have no reason to suspect the Geth have maintained anything.  They think they are evil machines remember.

Haestrom was not a colony.  Even before the war it was an observation planet.  The Quarians never lived there in large numbers and so it would not have been subject to the heavy fighitng that Rannoch was.  Those abandoned cities likely don't have electricity or running water because they haven't been lived in for 300 years.  You think the power company that supplys you with electrictiy can run unattended for 300 years? And the Geth were maintaining milatary bases for machines that don't need food, warmth or running water.  Finally, living off the live ships for months means that any Reaper attack and you are f**ked.  Instead of having to go chase you through space in a mobile fleet, you now decide to set up shop on a planet that requires you to live off liveships for several months.  You just made yourself a stationary target.  Good job.

[remydat]

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier but when you disable the Dreadnought and for most of the final mission, Legion nor Shepard seems to be aware that a Reaper is actually on Rannoch. They just think a Reaper base was established to transmit a Reaper signal and they don't appear to actually know it is an actual Reaper until you target the laser down in the bunker and just with the Normandy fire on it. It then reveals itself to be an actual and Legion reaction is holy f**k let's get out of here and Shep then comes up with the plan to have all the ships linked up to the Normandy's targeting system to kill it.

So the mission was described as disabling the short range signal the Reapers put there and Legion has no idea it seems that signal was in fact an actual Reaper. That would be one hell of an Oscar performance if he was lying the whole time and suggests the Reaper hiding out in the bunker is not well known to even the Geth.   If it was there before the war, there seems to be no logical reason for Legion not to have been aware of it.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 07:46 .

[Ryzaki]

...I see many of you have still not mastered the art of trimming quotes.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Um, I think the Reaper-controlled geth COUNTS.

And AGAIN, wrong. Look how long the final battle for Earth lasts. If you don't use the Crucible, the combined forepower of the entire galaxy lasts a wopping 1-2 hours. Maybe less.

And again wrong. Gurulla warfare hurts the Reapers worse then space battle. Hell, even the volus lasted longer in the ground war. And there are farmlands still intact, and the quarians would likely live off the liveship-cultivated food for the first few months while the crops grew.
And there are still abanodned cities the quarians can house in. Remember Haestrom? The quarian cities were in good shape.

Also, the quarians can set up housing by converting geth bases and abandoned materials from the fighting. Furthermore, the geth didn't touch any of the resources on Rannoch, or any of the quarian worlds, instead opting to harvest from asteroids. So there is no shortage of resources on Rannoch to use.

No because my point was the Reapers don't care enough about the Quarians to attack them IMO because chasing down a completely mobile race is time consuming and because the reward is only a 17 million person harvest.  The Reaper controlled Geth only attack becausethe Quarians sought them out to retake Rannoch not because the Quarians were a priority.  

And here you go proving my point.  The Quarians have no proof farmlands are still in tact.  They haven't been on Rannoch for 300 years and allegedly anything that entered Geth space never returned.  I want you to go find a farm abandoned for 300 years on earth and see whether it can support 17 million people.  Further, they have no reason to suspect the Geth have maintained anything.  They think they are evil machines remember.

Haestrom was not a colony.  Even before the war it was an observation planet.  The Quarians never lived there in large numbers and so it would not have been subject to the heavy fighitng that Rannoch was.  Those abandoned cities likely don't have electricity or running water because they haven't been lived in for 300 years.  You think the power company that supplys you with electrictiy can run unattended for 300 years? And the Geth were maintaining milatary bases for machines that don't need food, warmth or running water.  Finally, living off the live ships for months means that any Reaper attack and you are f**ked.  Instead of having to go chase you through space in a mobile fleet, you now decide to set up shop on a planet that requires you to live off liveships for several months.  You just made yourself a stationary target.  Good job.

But again, the Reapers are "compulsive eaters" that are driven to harvest every single race in the galaxy to fulfil the Catalyst's mandate. And the geth have proven that the Reaper code upgrades would allowed them to roll over the geth easily. Why didn't they? The Reapers didn't want to wipe out the quarians. They wanted to keep them imobilized. Reapers are master stragtiests, remember?
And the quarians attacked because it was either retake Rannoch or die.
The geth joined the Reapers because it was either live or die.
BOTH were in a "live or die" situation, so I don't see why you are being so prejudiced against the quarians.

And WRONG. Your point was disproven.  The quarians had old maps, hsitroical logs. Raan herself says that she recalls the southern continent having "exclient farmland." And you honestly were thinking a single farm?  It's acers of farming land, for dozens of farms. So no, they knew where they were going to farm, so your point is disproven. And again, they have no reason to believe that Rannoch is any different then how it was 300 years ago. It's an arid world. They tend to be hardy. Besides, they recover just fine if the geth aren't around either, so it's not a problem, is it?

Legion himself says that the damage done to the quarian worlds is neglegible except for toxin damage. Physical damage isn't that bad according to him.
And the fact that Haestrom was, and to qoute verbatium from the Codex "one of the first worlds to fall to the geth in the rebellion," seems to disprove that assertion. And it's listed as a quarian colony world in the planetary discription.
And you are forgetting that the quarians are counting on having tons upon tons of geth tech to salvage and recycle/refurbish, like the geth anti-air towers and jamming towers. The geth's fortifacations and crashed ships. They're counting on having more then enough extra cableing, power units, recyclers, heating units recycled from starship heat diffiusion systems, and so-on. So refurbishing those buildings won't be a problem. After all, some of the quarian's ships pre-date the Morning War. If they can keep those ships running for 300 years, repairing cities with their now-abundant resources and assumed masses of geth salvage won't be a chalange.
And AGAIN, salvaged geth fortifacations? They were counting on retaking Rannoch without losing much. They never counted on the geth getting Reaper upgrades.
And I remind you that Kajhe - hanar homeworld - stays intact with simple automated defenses. For some reason, defenses that can be brought down by a single virus has the Reapers scared. Also, Rannoch is out past the Terminus systems, out of the way of the Reaper's main warpath. The Reapers would have to go extremely out of the way to hit Rannoch. And again, Earth anf Palaven lasted six months apiece. Even the volus lasted longer in a gound battle then the space fleets.
The REAL way to screw your race is to load them ALL into ships and take them against the ship-demolishing Reapers. Congrats - you killed your entire race. Nice work<_<

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier but when you disable the Dreadnought and for most of the final mission, Legion nor Shepard seems to be aware that a Reaper is actually on Rannoch. They just think a Reaper base was established to transmit a Reaper signal and they don't appear to actually know it is an actual Reaper until you target the laser down in the bunker and just with the Normandy fire on it. It then reveals itself to be an actual and Legion reaction is holy f**k let's get out of here and Shep then comes up with the plan to have all the ships linked up to the Normandy's targeting system to kill it.

So the mission was described as disabling the short range signal the Reapers put there and Legion has no idea it seems that signal was in fact an actual Reaper. That would be one hell of an Oscar performance if he was lying the whole time and suggests the Reaper hiding out in the bunker is not well known to even the Geth.   If it was there before the war, there seems to be no logical reason for Legion not to have been aware of it.

Legion hasn't been the most truthfull before.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqtAHNQT3-w
Legion hid this information from you. Even though he wasn't "sure," he still never presented you with this option.

And @DenyonSlayer already had an idea about that: His idea is that Legion was chained up to the Dreadnought already, shackled "just in case" the geth decided to agree to the Reapers terms. He phrased it as "getting the card for a new game without getting the game itself. Just in case."
In which case, Legion would be isolated from the consensis and thus, unaware of the Reaper's movements or location. This would also explain Legion's inability to return Tali's attempts to contact him if the geth locked him up to prevent him messing up the contact and thus lessening the geth's possibilities.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 avril 2013 - 08:12 .

[S.A.K]

@Remydat

Still talking from a pro Geth perspective I see.

1. You think Legion tried to warn the Geth that the Flotilla was planning war and about the experiments Tali's father did? Tali says Legion tryed to send data about the Flotilla back to the Geth. It scaned her omni tool right? Anyway the next part of your posts says why I didn't take Legion there. I think what you said could have been done if they met in a neutral location, or over coms. But I don't think either side was ready for that. Legion is just one unit operating alone not connected to the consensus.
2. I can agree with most of it. But you can't just blame Quarians for everything. Edi learn all those things in a reletively short time. Geth had almost 300 year. They didn't even try to communicate. Correct? Plus they had the extranet to study.
3. If they can't abide by council laws, how can they maintain a continued peace? Human systems alliance was at was with cerberus even when they are at war with reapres, they try to fight even small terorrist activities from them. The Geth only try to stop Heretics when they pose a treat to themselves. I see that as irresponsible and selfish.
4. I can't find a vid of that. You just start ME1 and talk to Tali about the Geth. Won't take over 2 minutes. Anyway she says Geth didn't follow them beyond the veil.Tali also says millions upon millions died at Geth hands in same convosation. Also it is kind of common knowladge in the ME universe. So still it's clear Legion ommited data possibly to gain Shepards favor to the Geth.
5. Betraying his own race makes him more trust worthy? Wow. If Legion didn't tell about the Reaper on Rannoch, Geth would be Reaper slaves for ever. So he didn't say that to save Quarians. When you find Legion on the ship, it is not under Reaper control. Which suggest Legion went there willingly and later thought its a bad idea. Also, one of the first thing Legion talks about is the Heretic virus, which suggest it came to Shepard looking for help. I don't see any of the above as reasons for trust.
6. You suggested Geth being prejudiced when we talked about why Geth wanted to brainwash/kill Heretics and later wanted to adept Reaper tech for themselves.
7. So Geth don't want to talk. How is peace possible now? You just disprove your own earlier point...
8. And yet Geth think at the speed of light, they have the extranet. 300 years should be more than enough to learn something. Edi does this in few days. Geth could have tried to talk, but they didn't want to right? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for braking the law" ever heard that? And it don't take a genius  to figure out murder is bad. Murder is murder how ever you try to sweeten it. And please stop making sh!t up to cover the Geth.<_<

I think this convosation should end. You have no interest in even thinking this from a nutral view.

Edit : Even if I buy everything you said (I don't by the way), it doesn't explain why Geth should live and Quarians should die...

Modifié par S.A.K, 02 avril 2013 - 08:16 .

[silverexile17s]

S.A.K wrote...

@Remydat

Still talking from a pro Geth perspective I see.

1. You think Legion tried to warn the Geth that the Flotilla was planning war and about the experiments Tali's father did? Tali says Legion tryed to send data about the Flotilla back to the Geth. It scaned her omni tool right? Anyway the next part of your posts says why I didn't take Legion there. I think what you said could have been done if they met in a neutral location, or over coms. But I don't think either side was ready for that. Legion is just one unit operating alone not connected to the consensus.
2. I can agree with most of it. But you can't just blame Quarians for everything. Edi learn all those things in a reletively short time. Geth had almost 300 year. They didn't even try to communicate. Correct? Plus they had the extranet to study.
3. If they can't abide by council laws, how can they maintain a continued peace? Human systems alliance was at was with cerberus even when they are at war with reapres, they try to fight even small terorrist activities from them. The Geth only try to stop Heretics when they pose a treat to themselves. I see that as irresponsible and selfish.
4. I can't find a vid of that. You just start ME1 and talk to Tali about the Geth. Won't take over 2 minutes. Anyway she says Geth didn't follow them beyond the veil.Tali also says millions upon millions died at Geth hands in same convosation. Also it is kind of common knowladge in the ME universe. So still it's clear Legion ommited data possibly to gain Shepards favor to the Geth.
5. Betraying his own race makes him more trust worthy? Wow. If Legion didn't tell about the Reaper on Rannoch, Geth would be Reaper slaves for ever. So he didn't say that to save Quarians. When you find Legion on the ship, it is not under Reaper control. Which suggest Legion went there willingly and later thought its a bad idea. Also, one of the first thing Legion talks about is the Heretic virus, which suggest it came to Shepard looking for help. I don't see any of the above as reasons for trust.
6. You suggested Geth being prejudiced when we talked about why Geth wanted to brainwash/kill Heretics and later wanted to adept Reaper tech for themselves.
7. So Geth don't want to talk. How is peace possible now? You just disprove your own earlier point...
8. And yet Geth think at the speed of light, they have the extranet. 300 years should be more than enough to learn something. Edi does this in few days. Geth could have tried to talk, but they didn't want to right? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for braking the law" ever heard that? And it don't take a genius  to figure out murder is bad. Murder is murder how ever you try to sweeten it. And pleace stop making sh!t up to cover the Geth.<_<

I think this convosation should end. You have no interest in even thinking this from a nutral view.

He never did.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

...I see many of you have still not mastered the art of trimming quotes.

Nope. Can't figure it out for the life of me. Always messes up the quotes.

[tevix]

Let me try to throw a little water over this verbal fire.

Just a few pages ago I had made the same mistake of getting overly heated and personal about this.

The purpose of this thread is to say "Well, if I can't have peace I'd pick X...because ---. You'd pick Y? How come? Ok, but what about this? I see, well, I choose differently but fair enough."

Neither side is technically right. Even BW makes this point by awarding no paragade points if you don't achieve peace.

There are arguments to be made for either side. Some people have differant morals and perspectives. Though I disagree with much of what remy says, he has made one point clear:

He provided his course of action assuming points he doesn't agree with are correct. That's all we can ask. This debate has become almost fanatical, in that some of us (as I did earlier) will not accept anything but 100% submission to our points of view. That's not really fair.

This isn't the gates of heaven and none of us are god (so far as I know), so let's try not to be too judgemental and agressive about points of view that aren't detrimental to us or causing harm.

Group hug?

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

@Remydat

Still talking from a pro Geth perspective I see.

1. You think Legion tried to warn the Geth that the Flotilla was planning war and about the experiments Tali's father did? Tali says Legion tryed to send data about the Flotilla back to the Geth. It scaned her omni tool right? Anyway the next part of your posts says why I didn't take Legion there. I think what you said could have been done if they met in a neutral location, or over coms. But I don't think either side was ready for that. Legion is just one unit operating alone not connected to the consensus.
2. I can agree with most of it. But you can't just blame Quarians for everything. Edi learn all those things in a reletively short time. Geth had almost 300 year. They didn't even try to communicate. Correct? Plus they had the extranet to study.
3. If they can't abide by council laws, how can they maintain a continued peace? Human systems alliance was at was with cerberus even when they are at war with reapres, they try to fight even small terorrist activities from them. The Geth only try to stop Heretics when they pose a treat to themselves. I see that as irresponsible and selfish.
4. I can't find a vid of that. You just start ME1 and talk to Tali about the Geth. Won't take over 2 minutes. Anyway she says Geth didn't follow them beyond the veil.Tali also says millions upon millions died at Geth hands in same convosation. Also it is kind of common knowladge in the ME universe. So still it's clear Legion ommited data possibly to gain Shepards favor to the Geth.
5. Betraying his own race makes him more trust worthy? Wow. If Legion didn't tell about the Reaper on Rannoch, Geth would be Reaper slaves for ever. So he didn't say that to save Quarians. When you find Legion on the ship, it is not under Reaper control. Which suggest Legion went there willingly and later thought its a bad idea. Also, one of the first thing Legion talks about is the Heretic virus, which suggest it came to Shepard looking for help. I don't see any of the above as reasons for trust.
6. You suggested Geth being prejudiced when we talked about why Geth wanted to brainwash/kill Heretics and later wanted to adept Reaper tech for themselves.
7. So Geth don't want to talk. How is peace possible now? You just disprove your own earlier point...
8. And yet Geth think at the speed of light, they have the extranet. 300 years should be more than enough to learn something. Edi does this in few days. Geth could have tried to talk, but they didn't want to right? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for braking the law" ever heard that? And it don't take a genius  to figure out murder is bad. Murder is murder how ever you try to sweeten it. And please stop making sh!t up to cover the Geth.<_<

I think this convosation should end. You have no interest in even thinking this from a nutral view.

Edit : Even if I buy everything you said (I don't by the way), it doesn't explain why Geth should live and Quarians should die...

How can you expect them to live by Council law when that law says their very lives are illegal? Going back to the earlier posts about the AI's contacting the council petitioning them for a change of council law to allow them rights.
Suffise to say they were unarmed and got massacered by council forces. They did kind of sound like Geth, unless all synthetics sounds like Geth. Someone said it was the same year as the Mourning war.
Maybe the killing of that delegation is what finaly sealed the fate of the Quarian race.
The Quarians didn't listen or negotiate with the Geth, the Council didn't listen, they just threw bullets at them for petitioning the council for an audience. They wern't even given a chance to speak.
By that, it would seem they tried to talk sense to the Quarians and failed, they then tried to contact the Citadel council hoping they would be less partial and reasonable. When both failed there was noone left to talk to. Why should they belive organics would change and become more trust worthy?
Shepard has one small benefit, Humanity wasn't part of the galactic community that signed their death warrant. And the Geth desperately needed allies agaisnt the ultimate destroyer of civilizations, the Reapers.
The reapers spares noone, synthetic or organic, they are all harvested.

Would you trust people who tried to kill you every time thy were given a chance? Like Legion said, when every the creators thought they had a chance at winning they would attack 100% of the time. They probably figured all organics would belong to that category, the Councils treatment of them speak volumes.