4712 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote...

Again, you are looking at this as if what Shepard knows is common knwoledge to everyone else. It isn't. IDK if you realize this, but next to no one knows that there was a split between the geth.
Also, that statement is invalidated by this:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCEIGWV7Fuw
Note the Salarian Councilor in particular: "we have found nothing to suggest Sovergien was not a geth creation."
The Council believes that Sovergien was a geth-created dreadnought. The information about Sovergien IS exactally that: information that only Shepard knows. Anyone else like Anderson has no proof that anyone else believes.
The first point is actually compounded and validated by that vidio you gave, which Tali flat-out states the geth butchered millions upon millions. Also, Mass Effect: Revelation tells us that the current quarian population is less then 1% of the original race. Hence the Billion's desegnation.
The second point, third point, and fourth point are also compounded and validated by this video as well, as you should again note Tali's words at the end of this video: "Why do you think they cut themselves off from the rest of the galaxy? Why do you think they've killed every organic being who's ever tried to contact them?"  These two things showed that the geth both ignored any attempt to contact them, never tried contacting the rest of the galaxy,  and killed any organics that came to their doorstep. And again, that conversation has an option that wasn't chosen:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1bYrWUK7fw&list=PL41D7BD67BB110396
Tali tells you that they share Saren/Sovergien's desire to attack organics. That view is what everyone thinks of them.
The fifth point, sixth point, seventh point and eighth point is how the galaxy at large sees the geth. They see a large group of geth assault Eden Prime, Feros, and the Citadel, and infiltrate Noveria. The galaxy believes the geth are openly hostile.
The ninth point is the ME2 mission "N7: Save Crashing Ship" in which the Heretics hijack a ship loaded with military-grade munitions and attempt to suicide run the colony there.
The tenth point is the simple truth. I don't recall any attempt by the geth to disclaim the Heretics actions as their own. Theefore, everyone assumes the geth attacking the Citadel represent the rest of the geth.
And for the eleventh point, WRONG. it WASN'T the same attack listed twice. First they were prosicuted for attacking the Citadel in ME1. NOW, in ME3, the Council knows that Sovergein was a Reaper, and can now openly accuse the geth of being Reaper allies. There was a difference in what they were prosicuted for between games. In ME1, they were being prosicuted for being enemies of organics. Now, in ME3, with the Reaper's existance confirmed, they are able to prosicute the geth for being associated with Reapers.
IDK how you missed that. I differentated it as clear as I could make it. First they blamed them for attacking the Citadel, then after the Reapers were confirmed to exist, they blamed the geth for being Reaper allies too.
See? NOT listing the same event twice. Listing the change in viewpoint of the event after the Reapers were confirmed to be real.

And again, wrong, because Anderson directly tells you that the geth are still at war with the Alliance and Council. And Tali's viewpoints on the geth joining Saren because they had the same goals is how everyone sees the geth. They thought the geth did what they did because they agreed wholeheartedly with Saren. They didn't know anything else about the situation. The Council took what happened as evidence that all geth were naturally hostile to organics. They believed the fact that Saren was able to motivate them to attack the Citadel itself was proof of the geth having inbread hostility to organics.
And AGAIN, you are confused. I am simply stating how The Council and the wider galaxy see the geth. I never said it was my personal opinion on the geth. I am simply stating what everyone esle thought the geth were.

Except that, by the time we get to Rannoch in ME 3, Shepard knows that there are factions within the Geth, and whether or not the rest of the galaxy knows or not is irrelevant, because Shepard is the one making the decision.  In that conversation, Tali and Shepard are both in the dark about the Heretics, and Tali is basing her opinion about them sharing the Reaper's goals entirely on what's happening now, and what she knows about the MW, and after, and frankly, from the perspective they have at the time, it is a valid assumption.  We are, however, not making our choice based solely on one conversation, nor on one game.  If the Geth really shared the Reaper's goals, then Shepard dies on the derelict Reaper in ME 2.  Because Legion had a perfect head shot.

This is, as someone else pointed out, and as I pointed out much earlier, interesting to talk about, but moot.  You will base your decision on what you think or feel, and I will as well.  I have done paragon and renegade save both, and paragon and renegade save one or the other.  I did a Renegade save both last night that had lines I haven't seen in any vids, and that I hadn't gotten before.  Does this mean that I can't make up my mind?  Maybe it means that each of those Shepards interpreted the data differently?  Maybe one or two of them shared your views, that the Geth are irredeemable, and maybe other Sheps saw something that made them worth saving, even if that meant that the Quarians weren't.

Regarding the death toll from the MW, and the contradiction between what is presented in the vid I provided, and the novels some like to quote, there is a discrepancy there, and to me, the game wins out in this case.  That billions of Quarians died as a result of the war is likely, but millions upon millions is different than billions.  There is the fact lots of Quarians that died likely died during the initial phase of becoming nomads.  Those that couldn't adapt, or got sick, or whatever.  We can say:  But the Geth are the reason that they are forced to do so.  If we choose to ignore facts in evidence, this is a correct assumption.  However, we also know that the Quarians struck first, assuming that the Geth would indeed attack them.  No matter what happens after the Quarians attack, no matter what the Geth, Heretic or not do after this happens, we cannot know that this would have been the result.  We can also assume that Legion is lying about it, except that we have empirical evidence that the Geth didn't want to wipe out the Quarians.  That evidence is, quite simply, that there are still Quarians.  I have no reason to discount the statement by Legion that they didn't pursue the Quarians and finish them off because they didn't pursue the Quarians and finish them off, even though they were in a position to be able to do so.

Despite claims in the book that the Geth were openly hostile, I have nothing in game that suggests that they were aggressive about this hostility because nobody had seem them cross the Veil into Terminus or Council space until the events in ME 1.  However, in their place, I doubt that I would view organics any differently.  From the Geth perspective, they were peacefully co-existing with the Quarians, and then the Quarians started a war.  They have no data to suggest that the same wouldn't happen again with other organics.  But before we get all "but they were openly hostile to anyone that tried", do you have From Ashes?  Right after you get Javik rescued from Eden Prime, you get a com message from Liara because the guards won't let her talk to him.  Why?  Alliance Regs regarding a new species:  Assume hostility.  Are the Geth any less suspicious of other species?  Apparently, based on the vid I linked, no.  If we are going to condemn the Geth, then we must also condemn the Alliance for having rules that are similar to the actions they take?

Final thought:  The Council is privy to Shepard's mission reports.  Any data that Shepard has can be assumed to be shared with both the Alliance, and the Council.  In ME 1 and ME 3, Shepard reports to both.  In ME 2, there is a wide variety of ways you can deal with it, but for me, Paragon or Renegade, I dislike Cerberus, and so, where the game gives me a choice, any data I get that may be harmful to Cerberus, such as the one mission where you find their captured agent in ME 2, I send that data to the Alliance.  Every time but one, where I kept it for myself.  I played ME 1, and I played it Completionist just about every game, and so, I know about what Cerberus stands for.  However, to tie back to this dialog, you have plenty of people here willing to dismiss ME 1, or that never played it, that want to believe that Pragia was a rogue faction.  They want to believe that Cerberus in ME 3 was mischaracterized, despite what happened in ME 1.  I see this as a parallel to what happens with the Geth.

[S.A.K]

@shodiswe
I think you miss misunderstood a little. That was talking about if the Geth are accepted and there was peace between organics and Geth. Those laws against AI would be changed if that happens. I thought that was damn obvious. I was talking about other laws like treaty of Farixen and which parts of space belong to who.

Yeah probably. But they were pretty keen to trust the Reapers though. They kinda have a reputation of killing everything.

I guess you agree with the rest you haven't commented on.

[robertthebard]

S.A.K wrote...

@Remydat

Still talking from a pro Geth perspective I see.

1. You think Legion tried to warn the Geth that the Flotilla was planning war and about the experiments Tali's father did? Tali says Legion tryed to send data about the Flotilla back to the Geth. It scaned her omni tool right? Anyway the next part of your posts says why I didn't take Legion there. I think what you said could have been done if they met in a neutral location, or over coms. But I don't think either side was ready for that. Legion is just one unit operating alone not connected to the consensus.
2. I can agree with most of it. But you can't just blame Quarians for everything. Edi learn all those things in a reletively short time. Geth had almost 300 year. They didn't even try to communicate. Correct? Plus they had the extranet to study.
3. If they can't abide by council laws, how can they maintain a continued peace? Human systems alliance was at was with cerberus even when they are at war with reapres, they try to fight even small terorrist activities from them. The Geth only try to stop Heretics when they pose a treat to themselves. I see that as irresponsible and selfish.
4. I can't find a vid of that. You just start ME1 and talk to Tali about the Geth. Won't take over 2 minutes. Anyway she says Geth didn't follow them beyond the veil.Tali also says millions upon millions died at Geth hands in same convosation. Also it is kind of common knowladge in the ME universe. So still it's clear Legion ommited data possibly to gain Shepards favor to the Geth.
5. Betraying his own race makes him more trust worthy? Wow. If Legion didn't tell about the Reaper on Rannoch, Geth would be Reaper slaves for ever. So he didn't say that to save Quarians. When you find Legion on the ship, it is not under Reaper control. Which suggest Legion went there willingly and later thought its a bad idea. Also, one of the first thing Legion talks about is the Heretic virus, which suggest it came to Shepard looking for help. I don't see any of the above as reasons for trust.
6. You suggested Geth being prejudiced when we talked about why Geth wanted to brainwash/kill Heretics and later wanted to adept Reaper tech for themselves.
7. So Geth don't want to talk. How is peace possible now? You just disprove your own earlier point...
8. And yet Geth think at the speed of light, they have the extranet. 300 years should be more than enough to learn something. Edi does this in few days. Geth could have tried to talk, but they didn't want to right? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for braking the law" ever heard that? And it don't take a genius  to figure out murder is bad. Murder is murder how ever you try to sweeten it. And please stop making sh!t up to cover the Geth.<_<

I think this convosation should end. You have no interest in even thinking this from a nutral view.

Edit : Even if I buy everything you said (I don't by the way), it doesn't explain why Geth should live and Quarians should die...

1.  Tali was about to shoot Legion for doing just that in ME 2, immediately after Legion's loyalty mission.  She caught Legion scanning her omnitool.  They then present their cases, and you can Para/Rene them into backing off, or, alternatively, you can allow Legion to send the data.  These events are in game, and can be allowed to happen.  However, in ME 3, post Rannoch, if you make peace, Tali can still tell you that they aren't ready to be friends yet, too many wounds.

2.  EDI learned all those things in a relatively short time because EDI had programming restraints in place that forced her to learn them.  However, when she first became aware, on the moon in ME 1, she was openly hostile much the same as the Geth were:  Becoming aware while under attack was confusing.  That's EDI on TIM's base in ME 3, where we learn that she was the VI that became an AI on the moon.

3.  So, again, how exactly would Geth be viewed if they show up to offer assistance?  Are people going to greet them with open arms, or blazing guns?  The answer can be gotten from an email on Liara's console in 3, where an Alliance soldier had to apologize to a Prime for shooting off one of it's lights.  It is logical to assume that they were indeed preparing for war with the Reapers, just as every other race that wasn't actively under attack was.

4.  What data did Legion omit concerning the MW?  Legion was lying to me about having Reaper code, although, if you talk to him on the Normandy after you save him, he tells you he has remnants of it.  Again, the writers kind of lost track of what they were doing.  Pretty common occurrence according to the forums, and yet, for the purpose of this dialog, we are supposed to assume infallibility?

5.  OK, I just played this last night.  Yes, the Geth on the Dreadnaught are under Reaper control, the Reaper was using Legion to broadcast the signal.  Since the Geth on the Dreadnaught were under Reaper control, it stands to reason that the Dreadnaught is also under Reaper control:  Reaper controls Geth + Geth control Dreadnaught = Reaper controls Dreadnaught.  This is the whole reason we board the Dreadnaught in the first place, that and an Easter Egg about soloing it...

6.  I have no clue where any of that would come from.  In Legion's loyalty mission, the ultimate decision is on Shepard, and no matter what you choose to do, Legion is on board.

7.  At this stage in the game, we don't know if they'd have talked or not.  The Quarians didn't give them a chance, one way or the other.  Debating this point is pointless, since they were never given an opportunity.

It's funny that you should point out a neutral view, despite starting out saying someone is discussing from a Pro-Geth viewpoint, and then closing out with murder is murder.  Talking to Tali immediately after the conference with the Admiralty board, where you agree to assault the dreadnaught to eliminate the, according to you, non-existent Reaper control signal, she thought that maybe peace was possible from talking with Legion.  We will never know, as I pointed out above, because the Geth weren't given an opportunity to talk.  The Quarians got a new toy, and went to war.

[Goneaviking]

If no peace were obtainable between the Geth and Quarians I'd side with the Geth. I've done it several times in ME3, primarily in imported games that I hadn't connected the dots the right way to save them both.

1. The Quarians started it, and continued it. Yes the Geth didn't seek peaceful relations in 300 years, but isolationism was a valid choice and when given the opportunity to chase and finish off the Quarians they (foolishly) opted against it.
2. The Quarians have an ugly warlike culture and are, as a community, obsessed with revenge and their nationalist schemes. They show no interest in being a good neighbour to the other races, and behave in a generally unscrupulous manner secure in their delusions of grandeur.

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

...I see many of you have still not mastered the art of trimming quotes.

Nope. Can't figure it out for the life of me. Always messes up the quotes.

I know, right?  I hate playing quote tag tag in quotes trying to find the one I missed...

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

@shodiswe
I think you miss misunderstood a little. That was talking about if the Geth are accepted and there was peace between organics and Geth. Those laws against AI would be changed if that happens. I thought that was damn obvious. I was talking about other laws like treaty of Farixen and which parts of space belong to who.

Yeah probably. But they were pretty keen to trust the Reapers though. They kinda have a reputation of killing everything.

I guess you agree with the rest you haven't commented on.

Ok, thats an interesting question.
The treaty farixen is very specific and when it was created it took into accoun the current military capsbilities of the species signing the treaty. The basic idea of the treaty was to promote peace, trust and stability by limiting the growth speed of any species naval stregth. To aviod an arms race that could lead to political, and financial unrest in the galaxy. 
If the geth do choose to sign the treaty perhaps in the interest of changes to council laws and perhaps an embassy to give them recognized representation to protect geth interes then im sure the treaty would also have to legalize their current fleet. Which before the war was on par with the turian fleet. Gath ships might have been slightly more advanced and expensive in their design however. Also, we don't know how many of their ships survived the wars.
If they relax relations with organics then its possible that they might spend less resources on arming their shis, like mining vessels and transports/tradevessels.
Also remember that they are neighbours to the terminous systems with pirates ans other nasty rifraff.

The geths reputation in the past probably keept such elements out of their system, but their systems are opened up for trade commerce and travelers like tourists then they might get a new problem with undesirables hiding among the legal traffic.
If they become part of the rest of the galaxy then they will need to start policing and run custom checks together with the Quarians to maintan law and order.

[S.A.K]

@robertthebard
That post was not my first. I have discussed most of those points in the last few pages. I agreed that the Quarians are wrong for starting the war and Geth have done nothing at all to communicate in the last 300 years. "They adopted an extremely isolationist attitude - any ships that ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed." What was that about non-exsting reaper code?

Modifié par S.A.K, 02 avril 2013 - 01:49 .

[robertthebard]

S.A.K wrote...

@robertthebard
That post was not my first. I have discussed most of those points in the last few pages. I agreed that the Quarians are wrong for starting the war and Geth have done nothing at all to communicate in the last 300 years. "They adopted an extremely isolationist attitude - any ships that ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed." What was that about non-exsting reaper code?

Rereading the post I quoted for that reply, it's possible that I misinterpreted what you meant to say.  Rereading, the possibility exists that you were referring to Legion not being under control of the Reapers.  In that instance, I retract that statement, and blame myself for failing to comprehend what you were trying to say.  However, I find that, from a purely neutral perspective, I am unable to "blame" the Quarians for starting the current war.  They most definitely start it, too much empirical evidence in game to deny it.  However, I find I can understand exactly why they did.  They do indeed need a place for their non-combatants to reside while they are off fighting a war.  I can point to several scenarios that I might have tried prior to just attacking, especially with someone that was actively communicating with at least one platform, but, as I said, we'll never know what might have happened because none of them were tried.

[Unschuld]

 Bioware stats are skewed and invalid since plenty of people saved the Geth unwittingly simply because most players try to play biased towards Paragon and instinctively chose the upper right hand text bubble. This is shown by valid statistics, as well as personal experience with many I know personally.

5 Quarians decide what 17 million Quarians will do whether they like it or not, much like any government. Condemning an entire race for the actions of a few is deplorable. 

The Geth know each others thoughts as they are all part of a greater consensus/hive-mind. Every single one of them knows what the other is doing, and accepts it on a level that an individual organic does not, and goes along with those actions. The Geth killed 99% of the Quarians and decided not to kill the remaining 1% that ran for their lives. That is genocide, not "self defense" as it is white-washed in the consensus, plain and simple.

I also personally don't believe that machines are a form of life, and there is no solid real world-basis that says otherwise.

I would side with the Quarians every single time.

Modifié par Unschuld, 02 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Unschuld wrote...


I also personally don't believe that machines are a form of life, and there is no solid real world-basis that says otherwise.

I would side with the Quarians every single time.

You are nothing more than a machine, progammed by your maker to do what you're told, until you start to think for yourself. Ask questions about your exsistence, and then CHOOSE to do what you want for your benefit.

In that moment, you become an individual. A living being, that was born, and will eventually die, like anything else.

The moment Legion died, and the code uploaded %100 to all Geth, each and every Geth platform became like EDI (which everyone loves, but will kill the Geth?) but in a Geth Platform.

Again, you Quarian supporters are Hypocrites. I'm not casting any stones, just stating pure fact. 130 pages of replies and every Quarian supporter LOVES EDI, and hates the destroy ending for killing her.

But turns around and LOVES killing the Geth, because they killed a few Quarians.

Hypocrites, you are.

PS: On a side note, that's positive, we do have a decent debate, still going strong, keep it up. (Pg. 128 was rather good I might add.)

Sent from Android for Galaxy SIII

Modifié par Da Don Giovanni, 02 avril 2013 - 04:08 .

[Khelish]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

But turns around and LOVES killing the Geth, because they killed a few BILLION Quarians.

Fixed.

[S.A.K]

robertthebard wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

@robertthebard
That post was not my first. I have discussed most of those points in the last few pages. I agreed that the Quarians are wrong for starting the war and Geth have done nothing at all to communicate in the last 300 years. "They adopted an extremely isolationist attitude - any ships that ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed." What was that about non-exsting reaper code?

Rereading the post I quoted for that reply, it's possible that I misinterpreted what you meant to say.  Rereading, the possibility exists that you were referring to Legion not being under control of the Reapers.  In that instance, I retract that statement, and blame myself for failing to comprehend what you were trying to say.  However, I find that, from a purely neutral perspective, I am unable to "blame" the Quarians for starting the current war.  They most definitely start it, too much empirical evidence in game to deny it.  However, I find I can understand exactly why they did.  They do indeed need a place for their non-combatants to reside while they are off fighting a war.  I can point to several scenarios that I might have tried prior to just attacking, especially with someone that was actively communicating with at least one platform, but, as I said, we'll never know what might have happened because none of them were tried.

Ok we are cool. I can see how you could misinterpret that part. And I can agree with rest of what you said. Both sides should have tried talking. Can't be worse than how they ended up.

[S.A.K]

Khelish wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

But turns around and LOVES killing the Geth, because they killed a few BILLION Quarians.

Fixed.

Hahaha! Good one.

[Da Don Giovanni]

S.A.K wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

But turns around and LOVES killing the Geth, because they killed a few BILLION Quarians.

Fixed.

Hahaha! Good one.

Alright, I clearly did the few thing as sarcasim.

Yes, the Geth killed a few BILLION Quarians, but only because the Q's attacked first and planned to wipe them out.

I guess the Q's should've stayed outta the kitchen, they clearly can't stand the heat.

Or their own medicine for that matter.

Also, anyone see the Genesis 2 on the XBL marketplace? You can make the decisions of ME1-2 and import them into 3 now, for 320MSPTS.

Might get it so I can romance Miranda without playing through the whole damn trilogy again.

Sent from Android for Galaxy SIII

Modifié par Da Don Giovanni, 02 avril 2013 - 04:23 .

[Khelish]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Alright, I clearly did the few thing as sarcasim.

Yes, the Geth killed a few BILLION Quarians, but only because the Q's attacked first and planned to wipe them out.

Yeah, so killing billions of people that had nothing to do with how you were treated is A-OKAY?

I guess the Q's should've stayed outta the kitchen, they clearly can't stand the heat.

Keep saying that to the thousands of Quarian kids that died in the war. But, ya know, those Geth just had to kill them too... 

[Unschuld]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Unschuld wrote...


I also personally don't believe that machines are a form of life, and there is no solid real world-basis that says otherwise.

I would side with the Quarians every single time.

You are nothing more than a machine, progammed by your maker to do what you're told, until you start to think for yourself. Ask questions about your exsistence, and then CHOOSE to do what you want for your benefit.

In that moment, you become an individual. A living being, that was born, and will eventually die, like anything else.

Conjecture.

Don't impose religious views. Organic life may be composed of trillions of molecules that operate together in order to complete larger processes, but comparing that to the flow of electrons switching transistors and opening solenoids is a joke.

Da Don Giovanni wrote...
The moment Legion died, and the code uploaded %100 to all Geth, each and every Geth platform became like EDI (which everyone loves, but will kill the Geth?) but in a Geth Platform.

Metagaming.
Shepard doesn't know what will happen when Legion uploads itself, especially after he's untruthful to you in preceding missions (which he can be confronted over) and omits details. 

Da Don Giovanni wrote...
Again, you Quarian supporters are Hypocrites. I'm not casting any stones, just stating pure fact. 130 pages of replies and every Quarian supporter LOVES EDI, and hates the destroy ending for killing her.

Generalization. And yes, you are casting stones.

I love EDI like I love my favorite car. If asked to choose between the life of my car and my wife, I will choose my wife every single time (even if this were a parallel universe and she were a less than agreeable person). I would be very sad for my car, but oh well. EDI also states that she prefers destruction over accepting the reaper's gifts... hint hint... and she is only one being against billions. A regrettable but reasonable sacrifice, to which she agreed to in advance. 

Da Don Giovanni wrote...
But turns around and LOVES killing the Geth, because they killed a few Quarians.

Who said anything about enjoying it? "A few" as in several billion? Hyperbole just a bit?

Da Don Giovanni wrote...
Hypocrites, you are.

Please try again.

[Xilizhra]

I love EDI like I love my favorite car. If asked to choose between the life of my car and my wife, I will choose my wife every single time (even if this were a parallel universe and she were a less than agreeable person). I would be very sad for my car, but oh well. EDI also states that she prefers destruction over accepting the reaper's gifts... hint hint... and she is only one being against billions. A regrettable but reasonable sacrifice, to which she agreed to in advance.

Evil drips from this post. Your bigotry isn't uncommon, but it's utterly vile, and I'm shamed to be in its presence.

[Unschuld]

Xilizhra wrote...

Evil drips from this post. Your bigotry isn't uncommon, but it's utterly vile, and I'm shamed to be in its presence.

LOL. And I find your views utterly warped and insane.

[Xilizhra]

Unschuld wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Evil drips from this post. Your bigotry isn't uncommon, but it's utterly vile, and I'm shamed to be in its presence.

LOL. And I find your views utterly warped and insane.

You're not the first. But really. Writing off entire designations of sapient beings as not being people due to a few mechanical differences... this is the seed for the atrocities of a new generation, here and now. It's also what got the quarians wiped out. Perhaps we'll be next.

[Unschuld]

Xilizhra wrote...

You're not the first. But really. Writing off entire designations of sapient beings as not being people due to a few mechanical differences... this is the seed for the atrocities of a new generation, here and now. It's also what got the quarians wiped out. Perhaps we'll be next.

As I said, there is no real world basis for believing machines can be the same as organics. Also, I was comparing a single entity (car, EDI) to another single entity (wife), though honestly I'd save any human's life over my car if I were forced to choose between the two (unless that human was a murderer who was going to go on murdering with their new-found freedom). Please try to tell me that's "evil".

I never said that instant kill-all-machines was the best option, but there should be some pragmatism. Automatically assuming that machines, if sapient, will instantly be best buddies is a recipe for disaster. You're assuming that everything thinks exactly as you do, and that's a bad thing. The Geth killed 99% of a population because said individuals tried to shut them down. No sapient living population will attack something and continue to attack something until 99% of its own kind is dead. That's genocide, and all the reason I need not to trust the geth.

[Xilizhra]

As I said, there is no real world basis for believing machines can be the same as organics. Also, I was comparing a single entity (car, EDI) to another single entity (wife), though honestly I'd save any human's life over my car if I were forced to choose between the two (unless that human was a murderer who was going to go on murdering with their new-found freedom). Please try to tell me that's "evil".

What's evil is that you write off an AI having only the value of a car.

I never said that instant kill-all-machines was the best option, but there should be some pragmatism. Automatically assuming that machines, if sapient, will instantly be best buddies is a recipe for disaster. You're assuming that everything thinks exactly as you do, and that's a bad thing. The Geth killed 99% of a population because said individuals tried to shut them down. No sapient living population will attack something and continue to attack something until 99% of its own kind is dead. That's genocide, and all the reason I need not to trust the geth.

Irrelevant when you have the chance for peace. In any case, that was due to the quarian failures to design the geth mindset in a way that wouldn't interpret the entire species as being in a single consensus.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

But again, the Reapers are "compulsive eaters" that are driven to harvest every single race in the galaxy to fulfil the Catalyst's mandate. And the geth have proven that the Reaper code upgrades would allowed them to roll over the geth easily. Why didn't they? The Reapers didn't want to wipe out the quarians. They wanted to keep them imobilized. Reapers are master stragtiests, remember?
And the quarians attacked because it was either retake Rannoch or die.
The geth joined the Reapers because it was either live or die.
BOTH were in a "live or die" situation, so I don't see why you are being so prejudiced against the quarians.

And WRONG. Your point was disproven.  The quarians had old maps, hsitroical logs. Raan herself says that she recalls the southern continent having "exclient farmland." And you honestly were thinking a single farm?  It's acers of farming land, for dozens of farms. So no, they knew where they were going to farm, so your point is disproven. And again, they have no reason to believe that Rannoch is any different then how it was 300 years ago. It's an arid world. They tend to be hardy. Besides, they recover just fine if the geth aren't around either, so it's not a problem, is it?

Legion himself says that the damage done to the quarian worlds is neglegible except for toxin damage. Physical damage isn't that bad according to him.
And the fact that Haestrom was, and to qoute verbatium from the Codex "one of the first worlds to fall to the geth in the rebellion," seems to disprove that assertion. And it's listed as a quarian colony world in the planetary discription.
And you are forgetting that the quarians are counting on having tons upon tons of geth tech to salvage and recycle/refurbish, like the geth anti-air towers and jamming towers. The geth's fortifacations and crashed ships. They're counting on having more then enough extra cableing, power units, recyclers, heating units recycled from starship heat diffiusion systems, and so-on. So refurbishing those buildings won't be a problem. After all, some of the quarian's ships pre-date the Morning War. If they can keep those ships running for 300 years, repairing cities with their now-abundant resources and assumed masses of geth salvage won't be a chalange.
And AGAIN, salvaged geth fortifacations? They were counting on retaking Rannoch without losing much. They never counted on the geth getting Reaper upgrades.
And I remind you that Kajhe - hanar homeworld - stays intact with simple automated defenses. For some reason, defenses that can be brought down by a single virus has the Reapers scared. Also, Rannoch is out past the Terminus systems, out of the way of the Reaper's main warpath. The Reapers would have to go extremely out of the way to hit Rannoch. And again, Earth anf Palaven lasted six months apiece. Even the volus lasted longer in a gound battle then the space fleets.
The REAL way to screw your race is to load them ALL into ships and take them against the ship-demolishing Reapers. Congrats - you killed your entire race. Nice work<_<

1.   The Quarians attacked the Geth and the Reapers so it as an opportunity to enlist the Geth as allies because the Geth faced extinction.  There is no evidence that if the Quarians had not attacked that the Reapers would care about harvesting 17 million people when they have planets with billions of people to harvest.  It took them centuries to finish off the last cycle and the Quarians would likely be one of the last they worry about.

2.  I can find 300 year old maps of earth.  Farmland 300 years ago could be poisoned with toxins today, overrun by weeds and bugs that kill off edible plants.  Without irrigation systems in place, the soil could be dried up.  Where is the electricity to provide power?  This makes no sense Silver.  It literally would be like me coming to America in 2013 and expecting it to look like what America looked like in 1713.  Farmland doesn't just remain pristine and able to sustain large populations when they have not been maintained for 300 years.  Also, you do realize toxins get in soil.  You go plant trees on excellant farmland that was subjected to chemical warfare and see if it is excellant farmland still.  The Quarians have no knowledge that the Geth cleaned up the toxins.  Those toxins would naturally make it's way into the soil of those excellant farmlands.

3.  The reason the Quarians appear fine post Rannoch is because the Reapers never bother to attack them.  This is more evidence that the Reapers don't really care about the Quarians or the writers didn't care because sending two Reapers to Rannoch post peace and with no Geth basically means the Quarians would have abandoned everyone else in the Galaxy to go save their exposed civilians.  The Quarians can't really take on the Reapers as a combined fleet and you think they would have survived with half their forces including most of the War ships assisting the war and the other half protecting a planet that can't even feed them yet?

4.  The Turians and Humans have billions of people Silver.  They take months to defeat because they have billions.  The Turians have 17 million.  Don't know how many are military but if they go to support the war, the people left behind are going to be mostly civilians and parts of the Heavy Fleet.  

5.   If my enemy is going to make me extinct then I am blowing up  and destroying as much of the planet as I can.   I don't just leave everything behind so the people who exterminated me can live good.  So it is pretty illogical to think that machines with no sentimental ties to Rannoch would not destroy most of the infrastructure if there was no Reapers.  In war, it is referred to as a scorched earth policy. Organics with emotions used it frequently during war and you think the supposed unemotional machines that used chemical weapons won't?  When did the Quarians start believing the Geth were so good and pure?

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 05:14 .

[remydat]

Unschuld wrote...

As I said, there is no real world basis for believing machines can be the same as organics. Also, I was comparing a single entity (car, EDI) to another single entity (wife), though honestly I'd save any human's life over my car if I were forced to choose between the two (unless that human was a murderer who was going to go on murdering with their new-found freedom). Please try to tell me that's "evil".

I never said that instant kill-all-machines was the best option, but there should be some pragmatism. Automatically assuming that machines, if sapient, will instantly be best buddies is a recipe for disaster. You're assuming that everything thinks exactly as you do, and that's a bad thing. The Geth killed 99% of a population because said individuals tried to shut them down. No sapient living population will attack something and continue to attack something until 99% of its own kind is dead. That's genocide, and all the reason I need not to trust the geth.

This is simply false.  Genocide has happened frequently in human history. Serbia, Rwanda, WWII and that is just within the last 100 years.  Entire ethnic groups were wiped from existence over the course of human histroy.  We are the descendents of the a**holes that did it because for whatever reason they considered those people not like them.

[Unschuld]

Xilizhra wrote...
What's evil is that you write off an AI having only the value of a car.

It's irrelevant, because In a situation where I had to choose a reasonable human being and a reasonable AI, I would choose the human being every time too. EDI's survival comes at the expense of either imposing a galatic police force or imposing perminant, nonconsensual change at the molecular level because Shepard thinks what he/she feels is best for everyone. That's revolting, and not worth the "life" of one AI, or the "lives" of a few billion software programs.

Xilizhra wrote...
Irrelevant when you have the chance for peace. In any case, that was due to the quarian failures to design the geth mindset in a way that wouldn't interpret the entire species as being in a single consensus.

That's metagaming, but the genocide of the Quarians is "ok" because of a design flaw? It's ok the second time too because the actions of a few admirals?

[Xilizhra]

It's irrelevant, because In a situation where I had to choose a reasonable human being and a reasonable AI, I would choose the human being every time too. EDI's survival comes at the expense of either imposing a galatic police force or imposing perminant, nonconsensual change at the molecular level because Shepard thinks what he/she feels is best for everyone. That's revolting, and not worth the "life" of one AI, or the "lives" of a few billion software programs.

And hence, we're in disagreement that would likely be lethal if the situation was real.

That's metagaming, but the genocide of the Quarians is "ok" because of a design flaw? It's ok the second time too because the actions of a few admirals?

I'm not letting either genocide happen a second time.