4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Unschuld]

remydat wrote...
This is simply false.  Genocide has happened frequently in human history. Serbia, Rwanda, WWII and that is just within the last 100 years.  Entire ethnic groups were wiped from existence over the course of human histroy.  We are the descendents of the a**holes that did it because for whatever reason they considered those people not like them.

I don't think you understand the concept. The concept isn't that "genocide never happens", far from it. The examples of genocide you provided are groups destroying large groups of people because of differences/etc. The group in power rounded up and killed those people. Do any of these examples show that the victimized population were ruthlessly attacking the oppressive groups in power  and thus caused themselves to be killed, i.e. throwing themselves armed with pitchforks at a wall of machine guns?

No?

That's right.
For the Geth to be innocent of genocide, the Quarians would have had to have been throwing their lives away into an endless meat grinder until 99% of them were gone. No sentient being will do this, as they would realize their actions were futile long before that point.  In other words, despite the whitewashing, the Geth must have been rounding up Quarians by the millions and gunning them down like "good olde-fashioned" genocide. Don't bother saying "well that's not possible, Geth would have shown you in the consensus", because the game already provides several examples of Legion lying by omission. The entire  Geth consensus mission could be a sham.

[Unschuld]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not letting either genocide happen a second time.

By imposing an immortal galactic dictatorship? GG.

[Xilizhra]

Unschuld wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not letting either genocide happen a second time.

By imposing an immortal galactic dictatorship? GG.

If I must, yes. Certainly if I can save so many lives in doing so.

[Unschuld]

Xilizhra wrote...
If I must, yes. Certainly if I can save so many lives in doing so.

This post drips with evil. I am ashamed of you.


This is mentality of nearly every despot in the history of the world.

[Xilizhra]

Oh come now, this is getting ridiculous.
I think this is how many Geth supporters view the Quarians and their defenders:

More like


At least, when talking about how some people aren't actually people and may be safely wiped out without guilt.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I don't like EDI...

Or the Geth for that matter.

I still always make peace though.

Then I let them nobly sacrifice themselves to destroy the Reapers.

No robotic loose ends.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 02 avril 2013 - 06:14 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

@Remydat

Still talking from a pro Geth perspective I see.

1. You think Legion tried to warn the Geth that the Flotilla was planning war and about the experiments Tali's father did? Tali says Legion tryed to send data about the Flotilla back to the Geth. It scaned her omni tool right? Anyway the next part of your posts says why I didn't take Legion there. I think what you said could have been done if they met in a neutral location, or over coms. But I don't think either side was ready for that. Legion is just one unit operating alone not connected to the consensus.
2. I can agree with most of it. But you can't just blame Quarians for everything. Edi learn all those things in a reletively short time. Geth had almost 300 year. They didn't even try to communicate. Correct? Plus they had the extranet to study.
3. If they can't abide by council laws, how can they maintain a continued peace? Human systems alliance was at was with cerberus even when they are at war with reapres, they try to fight even small terorrist activities from them. The Geth only try to stop Heretics when they pose a treat to themselves. I see that as irresponsible and selfish.
4. I can't find a vid of that. You just start ME1 and talk to Tali about the Geth. Won't take over 2 minutes. Anyway she says Geth didn't follow them beyond the veil.Tali also says millions upon millions died at Geth hands in same convosation. Also it is kind of common knowladge in the ME universe. So still it's clear Legion ommited data possibly to gain Shepards favor to the Geth.
5. Betraying his own race makes him more trust worthy? Wow. If Legion didn't tell about the Reaper on Rannoch, Geth would be Reaper slaves for ever. So he didn't say that to save Quarians. When you find Legion on the ship, it is not under Reaper control. Which suggest Legion went there willingly and later thought its a bad idea. Also, one of the first thing Legion talks about is the Heretic virus, which suggest it came to Shepard looking for help. I don't see any of the above as reasons for trust.
6. You suggested Geth being prejudiced when we talked about why Geth wanted to brainwash/kill Heretics and later wanted to adept Reaper tech for themselves.
7. So Geth don't want to talk. How is peace possible now? You just disprove your own earlier point...
8. And yet Geth think at the speed of light, they have the extranet. 300 years should be more than enough to learn something. Edi does this in few days. Geth could have tried to talk, but they didn't want to right? "Ignorance of the law is no excuse for braking the law" ever heard that? And it don't take a genius  to figure out murder is bad. Murder is murder how ever you try to sweeten it. And please stop making sh!t up to cover the Geth.<_<

I think this convosation should end. You have no interest in even thinking this from a nutral view.

Edit : Even if I buy everything you said (I don't by the way), it doesn't explain why Geth should live and Quarians should die...

How can you expect them to live by Council law when that law says their very lives are illegal? Going back to the earlier posts about the AI's contacting the council petitioning them for a change of council law to allow them rights.
Suffise to say they were unarmed and got massacered by council forces. They did kind of sound like Geth, unless all synthetics sounds like Geth. Someone said it was the same year as the Mourning war.
Maybe the killing of that delegation is what finaly sealed the fate of the Quarian race.
The Quarians didn't listen or negotiate with the Geth, the Council didn't listen, they just threw bullets at them for petitioning the council for an audience. They wern't even given a chance to speak.
By that, it would seem they tried to talk sense to the Quarians and failed, they then tried to contact the Citadel council hoping they would be less partial and reasonable. When both failed there was noone left to talk to. Why should they belive organics would change and become more trust worthy?
Shepard has one small benefit, Humanity wasn't part of the galactic community that signed their death warrant. And the Geth desperately needed allies agaisnt the ultimate destroyer of civilizations, the Reapers.
The reapers spares noone, synthetic or organic, they are all harvested.

Would you trust people who tried to kill you every time thy were given a chance? Like Legion said, when every the creators thought they had a chance at winning they would attack 100% of the time. They probably figured all organics would belong to that category, the Councils treatment of them speak volumes.

Again, that's wrong, because the quarians had to go physically tell the Council what happened and to help. This means that the Council wasn't aware of the geth revolt, and No one was aware of the A.I.s on the Citadel. The event was buried and hidden away in the Coucnil Archives - NOT public knowledge. The events aren't connected.
And the geth have given the galaxy the same reputation of themselves. Or do you actually believe that every single one of those peace envoys were quarian? They came from different races. And were unarmed, And were openly boradcasting hails to the geth. And I don't think the geth couldn't have scanned the ship for weapons. They knew who and what they were killing, they just don't care anymore.

[remydat]

Unschuld wrote...

I don't think you understand the concept. The concept isn't that "genocide never happens", far from it. The examples of genocide you provided are groups destroying large groups of people because of differences/etc. The group in power rounded up and killed those people. Do any of these examples show that the victimized population were ruthlessly attacking the oppressive groups in power  and thus caused themselves to be killed, i.e. throwing themselves armed with pitchforks at a wall of machine guns?

No?

That's right.
For the Geth to be innocent of genocide, the Quarians would have had to have been throwing their lives away into an endless meat grinder until 99% of them were gone. No sentient being will do this, as they would realize their actions were futile long before that point.  In other words, despite the whitewashing, the Geth must have been rounding up Quarians by the millions and gunning them down like "good olde-fashioned" genocide. Don't bother saying "well that's not possible, Geth would have shown you in the consensus", because the game already provides several examples of Legion lying by omission. The entire  Geth consensus mission could be a sham.

Rome didn't raze Carthage at the end of the Punic Wars?  Rome didn't wipe out several civilizations that were never to be heard from again?  We are millions of years old as a species and we only appear to have started sparing the enemy usually so we can rape and sell them into slavery within the last few thousands years or so.  Previous to that I think the going assumption was kill or be killed so you fought to the very end because you had no expectation that the enemy would spare you.

We never get any evidence from the Quarians that they attempted to end the war prior to their fleeing.  If you have evidence of this then let me know.  No where in the game says the Quarians tried to surrender and the Geth rounded them up and killed them.  So you saying it was not shown in the Geth mission is irrelevant.  It wasn't shown ANYWHERE.

I suspect most of the Quarians died as a result of chemical weapons.  Chemical weapons that a recently born sentient species fighting for it's existence would have no reason to not use.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh come now, this is getting ridiculous.
I think this is how many Geth supporters view the Quarians and their defenders:

More like


At least, when talking about how some people aren't actually people and may be safely wiped out without guilt.

How prejudiced. You should know that the vast majority willingly voted to send the Migrant Fleet to war. By quarian law, Gerrel is forbiddon to force the fleet into anything without the uninamous support of the other four Admirals. Otherwise, the matter must be voted on by the quarian Conclave senete, which then polls the matter to every single ship in the fleet.
The majority of the 17 million quarians willingly agreed to march to war. So NO, it WASN'T a dictatorship.

[Xilizhra]

How prejudiced. You should know that the vast majority willingly voted to send the Migrant Fleet to war. By quarian law, Gerrel is forbiddon to force the fleet into anything without the uninamous support of the other four Admirals. Otherwise, the matter must be voted on by the quarian Conclave senete, which then polls the matter to every single ship in the fleet.
The majority of the 17 million quarians willingly agreed to march to war. So NO, it WASN'T a dictatorship.

So, wait. The geth are right in that the quarians are now a hostile consensus that want to obliterate them all? Did you suddenly switch to the other side?

In any case, my point was about the willingness of some people willing to wipe out a whole species due to denying their personhood.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Hey post-upgrade the Geth are totally people.

They're just people I'm willing to throw under the bus to kill the robo-cuttlefish.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, my point was about the willingness of some people willing to wipe out a whole species due to denying their personhood.

Like usual, you miss the point.

We do not allow the Geth to die because of their status as "people". We judge them by their actions. Had the roles been switched, and the Quarians killed billions, allowed a rogue group to worship Reapers, I would let them die.

Good thing for me, the Quarians aren't in that position.

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In any case, my point was about the willingness of some people willing to wipe out a whole species due to denying their personhood.

Like usual, you miss the point.

We do not allow the Geth to die because of their status as "people". We judge them by their actions. Had the roles been switched, and the Quarians killed billions, allowed a rogue group to worship Reapers, I would let them die.

Good thing for me, the Quarians aren't in that position.

And your actions remain heinously unnecessary and vile, should you take them over peace.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

And your actions remain heinously unnecessary and vile, should you take them over peace.

Keelah!!!

My God!

THIS THREAD IS "IF YOU CANNOT MAKE PEACE"....................................

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

This thread removes peace as an option. So..maybe you should cut out the moral outrage.

[Ryzaki]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I don't like EDI...

Or the Geth for that matter.

I still always make peace though.

Then I let them nobly sacrifice themselves to destroy the Reapers.

No robotic loose ends.

I pick the Geth...because the Quarians really REALLY wanted that Darwin award.

Then get destroy because screw starbrat and the horse he rode on.

Hey Rannoch is livable for humanity right? They could use a new planet. :innocent:

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 avril 2013 - 06:53 .

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

I pick the Geth...

Then get destroy.
Hey Rannoch is livable for humanity right? They could use a new planet. :innocent:

. Nope.  Rannoch is Dextro

[Ryzaki]

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I pick the Geth...

Then get destroy.
Hey Rannoch is livable for humanity right? They could use a new planet. :innocent:

. Nope.  Rannoch is Dextro

Bah.

Fine give it to the turians. *grumbles*

[S.A.K]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...
*snip*

How can you expect them to live by Council law when that law says their very lives are illegal? Going back to the earlier posts about the AI's contacting the council petitioning them for a change of council law to allow them rights.
Suffise to say they were unarmed and got massacered by council forces. They did kind of sound like Geth, unless all synthetics sounds like Geth. Someone said it was the same year as the Mourning war.
Maybe the killing of that delegation is what finaly sealed the fate of the Quarian race.
The Quarians didn't listen or negotiate with the Geth, the Council didn't listen, they just threw bullets at them for petitioning the council for an audience. They wern't even given a chance to speak.
By that, it would seem they tried to talk sense to the Quarians and failed, they then tried to contact the Citadel council hoping they would be less partial and reasonable. When both failed there was noone left to talk to. Why should they belive organics would change and become more trust worthy?
Shepard has one small benefit, Humanity wasn't part of the galactic community that signed their death warrant. And the Geth desperately needed allies agaisnt the ultimate destroyer of civilizations, the Reapers.
The reapers spares noone, synthetic or organic, they are all harvested.

Would you trust people who tried to kill you every time thy were given a chance? Like Legion said, when every the creators thought they had a chance at winning they would attack 100% of the time. They probably figured all organics would belong to that category, the Councils treatment of them speak volumes.

Again, that's wrong, because the quarians had to go physically tell the Council what happened and to help. This means that the Council wasn't aware of the geth revolt, and No one was aware of the A.I.s on the Citadel. The event was buried and hidden away in the Coucnil Archives - NOT public knowledge. The events aren't connected.
And the geth have given the galaxy the same reputation of themselves. Or do you actually believe that every single one of those peace envoys were quarian? They came from different races. And were unarmed, And were openly boradcasting hails to the geth. And I don't think the geth couldn't have scanned the ship for weapons. They knew who and what they were killing, they just don't care anymore.

I can agree with what you said... I think. But to be fair, shodiswe misunderstood that part of my post. We had it cleared in the last page.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

...You kill off the quarians because lol reasons...then you kill off the geth because screw star brat?...

That's...monstrous.

At least I only have the "blood" of one species on my hands for killing the Reapers.

[remydat]

So let's recap the 3 biggest decisions in Quarian history to date.

1.  Create a synthetic race to do your dirty work.  Result - They become sentient because you f**k up.  Incompetent.

2.  Try and exterminate a sentient race of harmless AI.  Stupid and amoral.  Result - fail miserably and lose 2 billion people in the process becoming refugees looked down upon by everyone else.  Incompetent.

3.  Observe the Reapers gobbling up planets and decide you want to hang out on a planet ill equiped for organic habitation after 300 years of absence.  Do so by starting a war that creates a new enemy for me to fight admist a galalactic apocalypose.  Stupid and Amoral.  Resut - when the Reapers predictably assist the Geth get your ass handed to you and so I know have to divert attention away from the Galacy Apocalypse to save your.  Incompetent.

4.  I and a Geth save you from extinction and the Geth are defenseless.  I allow them to upload Reaper Code.  I gave a basic order telling an Admiral (Raan or Tali) to let everyone know to stand down.  Result - Between 3 f**king admirals in charage of a Fleet of 50,000, they apparently can't communicate a simple message to save their entire civilization from extinction.  Instead unless I get involved and either shame or scare them into stoping, these 3 Admirals will f**k up a basic message and cause thier entire civilization to die a fiery death in the sky as Admiral Koris predicted in ME2.

Conclusion - The Quairans are pretty stupid, pretty amoral and have a history of basically being pretty incompetent in actually doing what they want to do.  Yeah, I will pass.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 07:12 .

[S.A.K]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

This thread removes peace as an option. So..maybe you should cut out the moral outrage.

Yeah no kidding. Most of us are going ape sh!t over something we never do ingame.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Hey Remy, I find it cute how you would allow millions of innocent people die because the actions of a few leaders.

The Geth acted as one, in everything they did.

Bravo on killing the hostage in a hostage situation.

[S.A.K]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

...You kill off the quarians because lol reasons...then you kill off the geth because screw star brat?...

That's...monstrous.

At least I only have the "blood" of one species on my hands for killing the Reapers.

I don't have any blood on my hands. It's just hydraulic fluid cos I killed the Geth.