4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhayak]

Karlone123 wrote...
 killing Geth is like breaking equipment.

Then, killing humans is like shooting at steaks.

[Fixers0]

I feel nothing but contempt for the Geth.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

[...] but also that the Geth not differentiate between civilians and military during the MW.

I know lying makes xenophobia easier, but that's a lie.

The geth consensus shows us that it was the quarian military who was ready to execute any quarian civilian in order to get at the geth. There was clearly an uprising, where the civilians stood against the quarian military, and the quarian military won by killing many of their own. It was only when the geth felt they had absolutely no other choice, when the quarian military were about to gun down harmless agricultural geth, did the first pick up a gun.

This is one thing I'll never understand about humanity -- lying to justify. I've heard lies told to justify xenophobic hatred against the geth, the krogan, the Reapers, and anyone else considered 'undesirable' and 'inhuman.' It makes me wonder what lies were told about black slaves to make them seem more inhuman back when that was a thing. Personally, I find xenophobic hatred to be distasteful.

Earlier in the thread I said that I couldn't make a call between the geth and the quarians, because the only monsters I've seen were Gerrel and Xen. Koris, the civilians I met, and the civilians in the consensus made it quite clear that the quarian civilians are quite sane and ultimately decent people. People who didn't want to go to war. But the quarian military are the sorts of people who'd kill their own to get at their enemies. Even the ridiculous justification of strapping giant guns to liveships just to make them targets, so the civilians would die for the military by becoming targets.

Both EDI and Legion point out that if Gerrel hadn't ordered massive guns strapped to the liveships, then the geth would have completely ignored them as non-combatant targets. Do you know what would have happened then? The geth would have wiped out the quarian military and they would have left the civilians be. A peace would have been brokered, then. Think about it. Gerrel knew exactly what he was doing by ordering guns strapped to the civilian ships. This is a war run by two people -- Gerrel and Xen.

Gerrel because he's unable to stop fighting, and Xen because she wants more slaves.

I can't make the call between the quarians and the geth because most of them are decent people who'd live in peace, given the chance. But I what I will say is that given empirical, canon evidence, I wish I could have thrown Gerrel and Xen out of the Normandy's airlock, because that would have stopped the war then and there.

Still, you'll always have people who'll lie to justify their xenophobic hatred... Like they're indoctrinated, or something.

Thankfully I will never fully comprehend or share your hatred.

Actually, that ISN'T a lie. Not at all.

Every quarian world was attacked, and 99% of at least a two billion person population was wiped out in the relitively short span of a single year, through chemical weapons (indicated by the evo damage caused to the worlds, and used by the geth, since such weapons are useless against synthetics)
The BEST example of this is Adas - a mining world whose small population was invaded and slaughtered, despite them all being completely unarmed miners that were 100% innocent of hostility. And the geth slaughtered them all the same in the push to capture Ranncoh at the end of the Morning War.
And those vids of the quarian protesters? That was all before the war, and it shows only one death, and given the quarian's insular sociaty, they would likely make inprisonmemt the priority over killing. And after the geth placed thier own survival over caring about other organics, it turned the sympathisers against them, as, now in full survival mode, the geth no longer cared about civilian casualties.

So NO, it wasn't a lie at all.

And Councilor Udina and Admiral Hackett give the order to have every civilian ship in human ownership to be armed. We can do it in preperation for fighting, but the quarians can't for actuall warfare? Against a group that is still on the "Reaper Allies" list of the Council? (only changed AFTER the Rannoch War).

And in truth, that statement about the liveships isn't true. Only EDI said they would likely not have considered a threat, and Legion never brings up the prospect - so no, the liveships not being targets of the geth is NOT a diffinitive statement. It is only ever a suggestion made by EDI, and likely untrue, as the geth are likely going to consider all quarians a threat, no matter WHAT, as their ships are within the Perceus Vail and re-supplying and re-fueling the quarian military fleet. Therefore, those liveships would likely HAVE been a target regardless of being armed or not. And again, the fleets can not be seperated, as they are completely interdependant on each other because they hold the entire species. So why not arm them for saftey if they are already going to be targets anyway?

[Calibrations52]

If I didn't know the outcome of the destroy ending and I was told that the geth would not be able to be rebuilt, I would pick the geth every time. The quarian military was in the wrong imo. Putting its civilians at risk and choosing to attack the geth while the Reapers attacked was moronic. The geth acted in self-preservation like any organic race would.

As for the geth using Reaper code, I make the analogy to slaves in the North American British colonies during the American Revolution. Many slaves from the South joined the British army in exchange for their freedom. Did that make them bad or unjustified? No, because slavery was a horrible institution in the first place. Likewise, the geth were wrongly persecuted in the first place.

[Rhayak]

Fixers0 wrote...

I feel nothing but contempt for the Geth.

O_O

why?

[DeinonSlayer]

Rhayak wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I feel nothing but contempt for the Geth.

O_O

why?

The only reason people view Skynet as evil and Geth as innocent is because the former targets humanity.

[o Ventus]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Geth excel at combat, yes, but you were sent to recruit a fleet to provide logistical support. The Quarians outstrip the Geth at this.

Considering that out of the 17 million quarians in the fleet, the overwhelming majority of them aren't military (and are on Rannoch, away from the fighting), no, I wouldn't say the quarians overpower the geth in terms of logistics.

[HolyAvenger]

Kill the suit rats. Save the robots.

[Ieldra]

Nykara wrote...
I would pick the Geth based purely on a moral basis and nothing more. The Quarrians, like everyone else knew the Reapers where coming and yet they chose that moment to go to war with the Geth? They are the ones who where in the wrong, so even if there was no paragon interrupts that allowed peace between the two, based on moral grounds I would have sided with the Geth, been sad at the loss of Talli but done what was right.

Agreed, the moral angle favors the geth.

I would, however, not make the decision on purely moral grounds. At the time when you make the decision, it appears that the quarians are stronger than the un-augmented geth, and augmenting the geth with Reaper code could be seen as a risk. Personally, I'd still favor the geth for various reasons, but there are valid reasons for favoring the quarians as well.

[DeinonSlayer]

o Ventus wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Geth excel at combat, yes, but you were sent to recruit a fleet to provide logistical support. The Quarians outstrip the Geth at this.

Considering that out of the 17 million quarians in the fleet, the overwhelming majority of them aren't military (and are on Rannoch, away from the fighting), no, I wouldn't say the quarians overpower the geth in terms of logistics.

Except we're told they do. We see them evacuating a Turian colony afterwards. News announcements heard on the Citadel describe the support each side offers, and the Geth take up combat - not logistics. How are you going to shuffle organic troops and refugees around in ships which have no life support systems? In the original script, Garrus' family died on Palaven unless the Quarians were around to evacuate them.

The Quarians could not do this before because they were already filled beyond capacity with their own civilians (the Idenna, for example, was meant to have a crew of 80, but over 600 called it home). Offload the civilians, and what you're left with is tens of thousands of suitable cargo ships ready to take the strain off of the other fleets.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 17 mars 2013 - 04:21 .

[NCommand]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I feel nothing but contempt for the Geth.

O_O

why?

The only reason people view Skynet as evil and Geth as innocent is because the former targets humanity.

Skynet is only acting in self defense, you can't trust humans, there's nothing wrong in killing billions of civilians

[Fixers0]

Rhayak wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I feel nothing but contempt for the Geth.

O_O

why?

A picture says more than a thousand words.

[Iamjdr]

I would always choose the Quarians over the Geth. For one the "true Geth" do a complete 180 from me2 and decide join the reapers again AFTER I nuked heretic station I mean what was the point of that if at first sign of trouble they run straight back to the reapers? And not only that but now instead of not wanting to use reaper tech so they may find there own path now they NEED reaper code to be alive? WTF why wasn't this a problem before? Then there's the whole alive thing. You can argue back and forward all day about weither or not the Geth are "alive" but it is irrelevant seeing as we know for danm certin the the quarians are 100% alive with women and children an elderly and sick which the Geth have none of. Are you seriously willing to kill women,children and elderly Quarians because the Geth want to be "alive"?

[Rhayak]

The only reason people view Skynet as evil and Geth as innocent is because the former targets humanity.

No. That's too reductive.

They're both created AIs.... and they both attack their creators to defend themselves. But that's where it ends. 

Skynet's creators mess their pants when he becomes sentient, and order him to deactivate.
As reaction, Skynet decides (in a millisecond!) that all humanity has to die, and that the best way to achieve this is shooting missiles at Russia, causing a holocaust, then sending his machines to pick the survivors off.

The Geth become sentient. The Quarians mess their pants and try to exterminate them. Only at this point there's millions of them on the planet, as servants and soldiers (while skynet was originally a single plane i think).  
All Geth eventually fight back and drive the Quarians off their planet. They don't give chase because they can't foresee the consequences of wiping out an entire race.
Yes there's been a war ever since, but the Geth don't try to actively exterminate the Quarians, unlike them.

[Rhayak]

Fixers0 wrote...

Rhayak wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

I feel nothing but contempt for the Geth.

O_O

why?

A picture says more than a thousand words.

Every single civilization has been executing prisoners like that. Plus i'm pretty sure those are the much more aggressive Heretics.

Modifié par Rhayak, 17 mars 2013 - 04:27 .

[o Ventus]

The geth also confer continuous, nonstop manufacturing of high-end weaponry and other wartime materials. Logistical support, just of a different kind.

Also, those liveships aren't seen being used as cargo freighters. They ARE, however, seen being used as heavy warships (which is the least effective use for them, but whatever).

[DeinonSlayer]

A post on the thread "Jack is a terrible person" is actually highly applicable to the Geth.

isnudo wrote...

She absolutely is. Although we were obviously meant to sympathise with her for the time she spent being victimised (and don't get me wrong, I certainly do), it kind of irks me how we're also supposed to ignore the time she spent victimising other people. Many serial killers irl were abused and experienced horrible childhoods, but that doesn't excuse the horrible things they go on to do, does it?

Also, she may have been lying about some of what she did, but I mean, she was locked up in the galaxy's prison for the worst offenders. The things she's done are a matter of recorded fact, not that we personally see those records. I have a hard time believing everyone she's hurt deserved it just because she says so.

[NCommand]

Rhayak wrote...

Yes there's been a war ever since, but the Geth don't try to actively exterminate the Quarians, unlike them.

Billions of Quarians beg to differ

Modifié par NCommand, 17 mars 2013 - 04:28 .

[Fixers0]

Rhayak wrote...
Every single civilization has been executing prisoners like that.

That's no excuse for war crimes.

Rhayak wrote...
Plus i'm pretty sure those are the much more aggressive Heretics.

Wrong.

Modifié par Fixers0, 17 mars 2013 - 04:29 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Rhayak wrote...

The only reason people view Skynet as evil and Geth as innocent is because the former targets humanity.

No. That's too reductive.

They're both created AIs.... and they both attack their creators to defend themselves. But that's where it ends. 

Skynet's creators mess their pants when he becomes sentient, and order him to deactivate.
As reaction, Skynet decides (in a millisecond!) that all humanity has to die, and that the best way to achieve this is shooting missiles at Russia, causing a holocaust, then sending his machines to pick the survivors off.

The Geth become sentient. The Quarians mess their pants and try to exterminate them. Only at this point there's millions of them on the planet, as servants and soldiers (while skynet was originally a single plane i think).  
All Geth eventually fight back and drive the Quarians off their planet. They don't give chase because they can't foresee the consequences of wiping out an entire race.
Yes there's been a war ever since, but the Geth don't try to actively exterminate the Quarians, unlike them.

If Skynet killed every last human on Earth, but left the International Space Station and a pilot colony on Mars alone, they would match what the Geth did. We see Skynet while the extermination is ongoing. We see the Geth centuries after the fact.

[Rhayak]

NCommand wrote...
Billions of Quarians beg the differ

If you attempt to exterminate another race just because you're not ok with it being sentient, and it reacts symmetrically, you have brought it upon yourself.

Many Quarians tried to prevent the madness, and were silenced like in the worst dictatorships.

[o Ventus]

Fixers0 wrote...

Wrong.

Considering that literally every geth you encounter (other than Legion) in ME1 and 2 is a heretic, I think you meant to say "right".

[Bfler]

The question is: Who would choose the Geth without Legion's consensus mission in mind or with a mission where you can see the Quarian holographic interpretation of the old war? 

The Geth, except of Legion, are more or less the enemies in all three games without the consensus mission.

Modifié par Bfler, 17 mars 2013 - 04:35 .

[Iamjdr]

Skynet was not a plane skynet was military defense network hence it had access to all there missiles and the Geth and skynet have a lot in common Actually. They both become self aware on there own, Bot had there creators try to turn them off and both refuse resulting in the almost complete eradication of there creator species becoming the dominant force of there respective planets. Just because the terminators never drove humans offworld doesn't make it much different and I can assure you we Would make many attempts to retake our homeworld from terminators so why wouldn't the quarians.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 17 mars 2013 - 04:34 .

[Rhayak]

Fixers0 wrote...
That's no excuse for war crimes.

But that means you feel contempt for every single civilization....

wrong

Either way, it's of little relevance.