4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

Can you please consult with Silver?  He seems to think the majority of the Quarians vote for War.  You guys need to come up with a consistent message here.

"The Civilian Fleet didn't want this war..."

Silver and I don't always see eye to eye, just as you don't see eye to eye with your supporters.

And you elect sh*tty leaders then you have to live with the consequences.  If I can't trust 3 Admirals to communicate a message to save their civilization without me having to mico-manage them then I am sorry, I don't need them waging a war with the Galaxy's survival in the balance.

In that case, I guess all the German people in WWII deserve to die. Because when they eleceted Hitler, he made promises of good fortune. 

No, I don't give a **** about godwin.

This is a simple message.  Stand down or you will die.  3 Admirals can sort it out without me getting involved.  This is war not charity.  It pains me to say this because Tali is my true love.  But true love don't win wars and neither does incompetent admirals that can't deliver simple messages to each other.

Wow, well, Tali doesn't love you back, considering she would rather die than be with you... 

Actually, Gerrel conrtidicts this, as does Tali. Gerrel tells you that the quarians "almost had the votes" in ME2. Tali explisitly tells you that the Admirals are not able to force the fleet into anything without unanimous concent. Therefore, Gerrel is forbiddon from forcing the war on the fleet unless all four Admirals unanimously agree with him to do so. Failing that, the alternitive is to put the matter to vote in the quarian Conclave - a senete were represenitives of every ship in the Migrnat Fleet vote on matters. The Conclaves then polls the matter to every ship in the fleet.
End result: Gerrel's request to go to war is impossible unless a majority of the Conclave and ships argee to it. So the simple truth is that despite what Dorn'Hazt says, the majority voted for this war. Perhaps Dorn is right and they didn't want to fight, but they STILL willingly chose to do so.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 avril 2013 - 08:25 .

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...
 The entire POINT is that if you can't make peace, that either actions are going to end with someone being stabbed in the back. Legion literally, Tali metaphorically.

Well not really. If Shepard decides that after shutting down the Geth and killing the Reaper that his part in the matter is concluded and he decides to take a step back and let the Geth and Quarians choose their own fate. He isn't stabbing anyone in the back. He would be simply not getting himself involved in a personal matter between the two races.  Of course it would still end with the Geth getting the code and the Quarians dying. But still it was a fate each party chose for themselves.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

How prejudiced. You should know that the vast majority willingly voted to send the Migrant Fleet to war. By quarian law, Gerrel is forbiddon to force the fleet into anything without the uninamous support of the other four Admirals. Otherwise, the matter must be voted on by the quarian Conclave senete, which then polls the matter to every single ship in the fleet.
The majority of the 17 million quarians willingly agreed to march to war. So NO, it WASN'T a dictatorship.

So, wait. The geth are right in that the quarians are now a hostile consensus that want to obliterate them all? Did you suddenly switch to the other side?

In any case, my point was about the willingness of some people willing to wipe out a whole species due to denying their personhood.

Again, wrong. The quarians needed their world back. It was either reclaim Rannoch or wait in space to die. It was the same life or death situation that the geth were forced into. Both races made the choice to live. You can't blame the quarians for making the same choice as the geth.

Perhaps, but if that's the case, can you blame the geth for making the same choice as the quarians?

No, but I likewise can't blame the quarians for the choice either. See the catch 22 here?

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but the focus and coloration makes it somewhat resemble a fart fetish shot.

Lolwut?

I think you are seeing what you want to see...

It is lense flare, nothing more.

Well, whichever.

I won't deny that Tali's attractive... but I consider Liara moreso.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Everything Cerberus tries either fails miserably or succeeds in a way that bites them in the ass.

Pretty funny when you think about it.

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, whichever.

I won't deny that Tali's attractive... but I consider Liara moreso.

Who the hell even has a "fart" fetish... 

---

Liara ain't too bad, I agree.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Xilizhra wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, but the focus and coloration makes it somewhat resemble a fart fetish shot.

Lolwut?

I think you are seeing what you want to see...

It is lense flare, nothing more.

Well, whichever.

I won't deny that Tali's attractive... but I consider Liara moreso.

I'd agree but that voice just ruins it for me.

[silverexile17s]

Xilizhra wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Argolas wrote...

So what do you think about this:

The Geth have no specific requirements of where they live as long as the conditions aren't too extreme. The Quarians would probably need dozens of generations to adapt to a new homeworld other than Rannoch. Did the Geth seriously expect the Quarians would not get back at them? The Geth could go anywhere, the Quarians can't...

The quarians didn't begin with weird immune systems. In fact, the explanation for that is rather odd. They wrecked their immune systems within the sterile environment of the flotilla... but now they wear suits on the flotilla, the environment they adapted to in the first place? How can it be sterile if they still need suits there? I think the geth just didn't count on the power of Plot crushing quarian immune systems.

. They wear the suits on the flotilla out of tradition.  Stupid excuse yes, but it is given.

But... why... how... why would they design the flotilla to be unliveably sterile to begin with, such that they'd have to decontaminate everyone coming off of the Normandy? That ship evidently wasn't "clean," despite being in space, so what short-sighted germophobes designed the Migrant Fleet?

That's pretty much how their ships always were. And with so many civilians, they could suffer infection just be having so many individuals next to each other. Hence the suits.

[Xilizhra]

Khelish wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, whichever.

I won't deny that Tali's attractive... but I consider Liara moreso.

Who the hell even has a "fart" fetish... 

---

Liara ain't too bad, I agree.

If you knew all that I knew, my poor Jerusalem...

I'd agree but that voice just ruins it for me.

For Tali, or Liara?

[Khelish]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you knew all that I knew, my poor Jerusalem...

I am aware of many fetishes...

Though I will not dare ask for you to explain... 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Liara.

Tali is on a very short list of voices that make me go weak at the knees.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Simple fact is, you failed as her boyfriend to get peace or choose the Quarians. Bravo for not having the insight to see how upset Tali would be when you betrayed her trust.

Have a good day, sir.

She failed in not being able to tell Gherel that the Geth will kill them.  She failed in not calling her bf to tell him what the Quarians were planning to see if he could get the Alliance or Council to intervene.

A relationship is two parties working together.  If Tali had worked with me sooner, thingse would be different.  So no I did not betray her trust.  I made a rational decision that her not trusting me and telling me sooner forced me to make.  The betrayal of trust was in her not getting me involved before the war.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 08:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Liara.

Tali is on a very short list of voices that make me go weak at the knees.

I like Liara's voice well enough... though her personality far more. Not to mention the benefits of mindsex.

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

What's wrong is that it had to come to a choice or that people think a choice is nessesary.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. You realize that the majority of modern human indistruy is automated? You are going to falt the quarians for something that we ourselves are trying to do: create an automated indistruy? That's incompatent. The geth were created to be simple tools, no better then LOKI's. No one planned for them to become sapiant.

2. Council law prohibits the creation of A.I.s. The quarians between a rock and a hard place.
Fear the geth would rebel.
Fear the Council would bring the hammer down if they found out what the geth could become. End result: put 2.1 billion men, woman, and children above what no one knew were sapiant beings.
NOT amoral. Putting their people's needs and future first, like leaders are supposed to do.
Thinking that leaders are supposed to scarifice the future of their race for what are escentally automated mechs: that's incompatent.

3. What ELSE can they do? Attack the Reapers as is? Impossible. They are symbioticly dependant on each-other as is, thanks to having to lug their entire civilian population with them. And as such, the Migrant Fleet consumes as much resorces as the Crucible does - a months worth - in days.
Drop the civilians somewhere else? WHERE? What world can support them? Only turian-owned dextro colonies, and they are all either under attack, or overfilled to capasity. No one is going to actively take on 16 million civilians who need strict and spicific health and diatary needs.
They must become self-sufficant in the blink of an eye, or be unable to ever help the war effort. To do that, they need a world, and the only one with all the requirements is Rannoch - held by a blacklisted enemy of the galaxy.
NOT attacking an avowed enemy of the entire galaxy to get back the salvation of your entire race?: That's incompatent. You would rather they all die in the void then have a future,

4. No one knows the geth give a damn about organics. They are seen as no more organic frinedly then the Reapers themselves, before AND after the the Rannoch invasion. Tali can't communicate basic information. Raan doesn't even GIVE the order. Gerrel has no reason to believe the negotiation-killing geth are suddenly supposed to not be fired on.
Thinking that quarians are phsycic and can read geth minds: that's incompatent.

So in truth, NO, the quarians are NOT stupid and NOT amoral - just desperate and underinformed. Also, you just showed that you have again completely disregarded 133 pages of debating.

1.   The incompetence is the fact that as you say no one planned on them becoming sentient but they did.  They f**ked up.  When my car becomes sentient when I don't want it too then I will say humans f**ked up.  

2.  But they failed.  Their motivations are irrelevant.  They wanted to protect their future and children's future and failed so miserably at it that 2 billion people died.  There is no human group in the world that would call that anythng but a miserably failure.

3.  They can have Tali call her boyfriend and ask him to go find Legion to see if peace can be brokered. There is absolutely no evidence a Reaper attack was eminent.  They survived 300 years on the fleets.  They could have waited the few days or weeks it would have taken for Shepard to use the Normandy stealth systems to go find Legion.  I am her bf.  I will do it for Tali because I love her and I will do it for Legion because he saved my life and fought with me.  And they can't become self-sufficent on Rannoch in the blink of an eye.

4.  I know because Legion was living on a ship with Tali and I.  I don't need you to believe.  I need 3 Admirals to rely and undersand a simple message.  Stand down or you will die.  The issue of peace is irrelevant. The issue is do these Admirals want their people to live.  If so then they need to communicate the threat to each other.  They don't and they die.

So in conclusion, yes they are amoral, stupid and incompetent.  At every turn when their leaders try and help them, they end up dooming them without my involvement.

[Ryzaki]

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

And I'll take the toasters that are tireless and I can throw at the Reapers. :3

I love my toasters. <3

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

Well better not be Quarian then.  They came to that conclusion twice and it lead to 2 billion dead and possible extinction depending on what a human thinks.

[DeinonSlayer]

shodiswe wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You butchered her entire race for the geth. Right in front of her. As she pleaded you. No one loves a man that does that.

Um, I'm not a man, didn't romance her, and didn't do that. Are you certain you're replying to the right person?

A shepard that does nothing allows the Geth to defend themselves, the Geth does it to defend themselves agasint their would be murderers, Shepard does nothing. One could argue that a Separd that fails to make peace between them fails in his or her job at being a spectre however. The spectre that shoots one of the Geth leaders to win the war for the Quarians is making a choice to murder one species that got attacked by another, subsequently aiding the warmonger in their conquest and genocide.

Nope. Shepard either actively encourages the upload and chooses to withhold that information from the quarians, fully aware of the consequences, or Shepard refuses to support the upload and subsequently fends off an attempt on his life (or is rescued, rather - Shepard doesn't have to shoot). In non-peace outcomes, regardless of which species dies, Shepard is responsible. There's no ducking that.

[Xilizhra]

Nope. Shepard either actively encourages the upload and chooses to withhold that information from the quarians, fully aware of the consequences, or Shepard refuses to support the upload and subsequently fends off an attempt on his life (or is rescued, rather - Shepard doesn't have to shoot). In non-peace outcomes, regardless of which species dies, Shepard is responsible. There's no ducking that.

Unless peace is impossible, as this thread presumes.

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

What's wrong is that it had to come to a choice or that people think a choice is nessesary.

The game is built on choices. Are really saying that you want less  choice from an ME title?

No, I find it sickening that the whole galaxy turned on the Geth. Initialy only a few Geth waged war while others choose not to. But something changed things and suddenly sent what was left of the quarian people fleeing from what was once their homeworld.
Apparently they were taken by shoch by a very sudden change in the resistance they were facing. Maybe the councils execution of of AI envoys to the citadel made the Geth that hadn't taken up arms against the quarians realize that there could be no peace. Suddenly the small uprising of a few Geth fightign back and the majority in hiding changed to all out war where all Geth realized they had t ofight or die because noone cared if they lived or died.
There was nothing holding the Geth back because the Quarians and the council had made the choice for them. They could have negotiated a peace and assigned the Geth their own planet or space in Quarian space peacefully, but instead they went along with trying to exterminate them and ignore any atempts at peace.

The Quarians and the council decided that the Geth had to die and then the choice was simple, fight or die. Why was it so important to fight them if they were prepared to talk about it? That's just xenophobia and prejudice.
The Quarians got driven off Rannoch because of a war that they choose to go through with even if it wasn't nessesary. Their "enemy" didn't even want to fight.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
11.www.youtube.com/watch?v=qj2ouvzjTNc
Play from 11:25. He concedes that the geth need to be stopped.

How would Tali know that? Is she a part of the consensus?
The actions of the Heretics are theirs alone. The rest of the Geth shouldn't be lumped together with them.

You're right, no one has a reason to trust Leigon or the Geth and I never said they should. Leigon says that the Geth accepts the hatred of organics.

It would be stupid to rush off to fight the Reapers head on with no clear plan to destory them. The only reason why it makes sense for everyone to come together to fight them at the end is because of the Crucible.

You're right, not even I can fault the Quarians completely for not trusting in Geth peace yet they refuse to see how there own actions is the cause of this.  To not even try is stupid. The Reapers are coming, getting back Rannoch by force is foolish at this point, and they can't afford to waste resources like this. Trying for peace was the best course of action.

The physical proof is a Quarian and Geth living onboard a ship together, making peace, and fighting collectors together. The proof is in said Quarian who begs her people for peace. You have to start somewhere.

I'm sure Gerrel was the most gunho for war out of everyone. And I'm sure Tali told everyone there that geth heretics were responsible for the Citadel and joining Sovereign and how the Geth wanted them dealt with. 

Why would the Geth care if Shepard was killed they didn't think they needed him for some reason? and if Shepard couldn't help put in a word for them because they are determined to consider the Geth as enemies then there is no reason for the Geth to go out of there way to help them when they need aid, nor contact them to clarify anything. Leigon acknowledges that it takes both sides for peace to be achieved. how can the Geth work toward peace by themselves?

I can't argue a kill on sight order. It is another reason why the Geth would be fools to go to them.

Thanks for the video, but all he says is "We know" It doesn't mention shame or thinking they were wrong. Just that they need to be shut down.

No. But no evidence really counters the suspission.
And again, no one in the galaxy knew the Heretics and True Geth were seperate entities, or that a split even existed. Had they did, I think things would have played out differently.

Exactally. The geth accept that they at least don't blame people for hating them.

I guess. I just don't see why they would let the enemy spread that far if they really did want to fight.

Maybe, and maybe assuming that Legion wasn't sincere was rash of the quarians. But again, they never saw any evidece that the geth, Heretic or not, would accept them back, and likely compared Legion as an exmple of "few vs many," using the thousands that attacked the Citadel as the basis for most geth. Biased, yes. Understandible, yes. Thought through completely? Well.... maybe not, but trust for someone who always shot down the prospect of peace, especally giving them that blind trust in a war, is hard to do.

Besides, did you see the rest of the galaxy?
Cerberus pumping themselves with Reaper tech and thinking they won't get indoctrinated?
The Alliance hiding a doomsday archive on Mars?
The Krogan holding the war effort hostage for a genophage cure?
The Turians hiding a bomb on Tuchanka?
The Salarians trying to undercut the krogan-turian alliance that serves as the Galaxy's best hope?
Udina selling out to Cerberus?
The Asari hiding the key to understanding the Crucible on Thessia?
The war effort wecloming the Leviathans -the creators of the Reapers into their fold with open arms, no qualms?
The entire galaxy banking all hope on a device that no one knows anything about?
You have to admit: ME3 projects an image of a galaxy where mutual trust and rational, long-term thinking isn't in big supply, is it?

And Legion actually explains this: He says that the geth were facinated by how an organic could kill a "God." They saw Shepard as uniuqe, in how the Commander defeated Soveregin - a "sueprior being." Shepard single-handedly re-sparked geth interest in organics. When the Commander was listed as dead, they sent Legion out to investigate, and either confirm Shepard's death, or if Shepard was alive, study the Commander's responces - the traits that allowed Shepard to triumph over a Reaper - and as a side bonus, learn from Shepard about organics in general.
However, the Cerberus ties and the Alpha Relay incident killed any chance of Shepard's word having any weight in backing Legion as a represenitive of the geth. Having what the Council and Alliance has branded a xenophobic, genocidal lunitic on your side isn't a strong bargining point.

And again, Legion doesn't agrue the point any further. He basically concides to Shepard.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 avril 2013 - 09:20 .

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

Well better not be Quarian then.  They came to that conclusion twice and it lead to 2 billion dead and possible extinction depending on what a human thinks.

Flesh is inherently flawed. Even then, I'll still choose imperfect flesh over perfect machines.

The Quarians greatest flaw was that they were murderous beasts that knew nothing besides violence to solve their problem.