4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Yes you DID. Again, no one knows that the geth were ever organic friendly, before OR after the Rannoch invasion. Gerrel thinks they were hostile always. No one sees it as any different then shooting the anti-organic Reapers. It's completely understandible, yet you refuse to understand it. The entire POINT is that if you can't make peace, that either actions are going to end with someone being stabbed in the back. Legion literally, Tali metaphorically.

What does that have to do with Tali, Raan and Gherel not being able to communicate.? Gherel doesn't have to believe in peace.  All he has to do is believe the Geth will kill them.  Not my fault if 3 admirals can't properly convey that message.

He does believe that the geth would kill them if given the chance. Tali is the one that can't convey the message. Raan fails to even open the damn channel.
And Shepard's actions encourage one outcome or the other. If you can't unite the two sides, then your concealing of information kills the quarians, or your unwillingness to trust the geth again kills the geth. Either way, you kill/betray  someone.

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

No, I find it sickening that the whole galaxy turned on the Geth. Initialy only a few Geth waged war while others choose not to. But something changed things and suddenly sent what was left of the quarian people fleeing from what was once their homeworld.
Apparently they were taken by shoch by a very sudden change in the resistance they were facing. Maybe the councils execution of of AI envoys to the citadel made the Geth that hadn't taken up arms against the quarians realize that there could be no peace. Suddenly the small uprising of a few Geth fightign back and the majority in hiding changed to all out war where all Geth realized they had t ofight or die because noone cared if they lived or died.
There was nothing holding the Geth back because the Quarians and the council had made the choice for them. They could have negotiated a peace and assigned the Geth their own planet or space in Quarian space peacefully, but instead they went along with trying to exterminate them and ignore any atempts at peace.

The Quarians and the council decided that the Geth had to die and then the choice was simple, fight or die. Why was it so important to fight them if they were prepared to talk about it? That's just xenophobia and prejudice.
The Quarians got driven off Rannoch because of a war that they choose to go through with even if it wasn't nessesary. Their "enemy" didn't even want to fight.

They are mere machines that are controllable by outside forces. (The Reapers proved that.) Who's to say evil deeds wouldn't be done through them, the geth becoming proxies for said actions?

The geth are simply a tool to be used.

:innocent:

I'm talking about the mournign war here, I don't think the Reapers were involved in that but I guess one can't be entierly sure about that. When the Quarians attacked the Geth in ME3 the galaxy didn't give a damn about either side, most thoguht the Quarians were insane to throw themselves at the geth in a time like this.

They became a tool just as Cerberus and TIM became a tool. But in the end it was the Quarians that forced the Geth to accept the Reapers bargain.

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 avril 2013 - 09:10 .

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

Well better not be Quarian then.  They came to that conclusion twice and it lead to 2 billion dead and possible extinction depending on what a human thinks.

Flesh is inherently flawed. Even then, I'll still choose imperfect flesh over perfect machines.

The Quarians greatest flaw was that they were murderous beasts that knew nothing besides violence to solve their problem.

You cannot kill what is not living.

Yet the non living told the Quarians to stop, the non livign told the Council they wanted peace, the "living" told the "non-living" they wanted them destroyed, eventauly the "non-living" who prefered to "exist" fought back with all their might catchign the Quarrians unprepared by the sudden change of the resistance they were fighting when all Geth united agasint them during the mourning war.
It doesn't matter if you think the Geth arn't alive as long as they dissagree or belive they have a right to exist. You can't make a choice about it and expect them to obey when you know they are tellign you to stop and a few of them have taken ujp arms against you and some are petitioning the council.

Do you really think you "personal" "definition" of living makes a difference when your opposition doesn't agree with you?

[Steelcan]

Ryzaki wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Steel I wouldn't mind so much if they didn't have such a hilarious fail rate.

. Lazarus was successful.  Sanctuary was successful, those experiments on Reaper technology were successful.  Overlord was successful, they found a way to interact with the geth virtually.  Their adjutant experiments were successful.

Overlord was a disaster. If Shep hadn't intervened they have to nuke the whole project. Experiments on Reaper tech end up with all of them indoctrinated and almost cost humanity the war. (unless you mean EDI in which case fair enough). Sanctuary? No not at all. They were almost sucessful until the Reapers got a hold of em and nuked everything.

Only thing I can see that was fully successful was Lazarus, and EDI.

. You and I aren't using the same definition of success.  I define finding a way to interact with the geth as a success, finding a way to control Reapers, a success.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. You realize that the majority of modern human indistruy is automated? You are going to falt the quarians for something that we ourselves are trying to do: create an automated indistruy? That's incompatent. The geth were created to be simple tools, no better then LOKI's. No one planned for them to become sapiant.

2. Council law prohibits the creation of A.I.s. The quarians between a rock and a hard place.
Fear the geth would rebel.
Fear the Council would bring the hammer down if they found out what the geth could become. End result: put 2.1 billion men, woman, and children above what no one knew were sapiant beings.
NOT amoral. Putting their people's needs and future first, like leaders are supposed to do.
Thinking that leaders are supposed to scarifice the future of their race for what are escentally automated mechs: that's incompatent.

3. What ELSE can they do? Attack the Reapers as is? Impossible. They are symbioticly dependant on each-other as is, thanks to having to lug their entire civilian population with them. And as such, the Migrant Fleet consumes as much resorces as the Crucible does - a months worth - in days.
Drop the civilians somewhere else? WHERE? What world can support them? Only turian-owned dextro colonies, and they are all either under attack, or overfilled to capasity. No one is going to actively take on 16 million civilians who need strict and spicific health and diatary needs.
They must become self-sufficant in the blink of an eye, or be unable to ever help the war effort. To do that, they need a world, and the only one with all the requirements is Rannoch - held by a blacklisted enemy of the galaxy.
NOT attacking an avowed enemy of the entire galaxy to get back the salvation of your entire race?: That's incompatent. You would rather they all die in the void then have a future,

4. No one knows the geth give a damn about organics. They are seen as no more organic frinedly then the Reapers themselves, before AND after the the Rannoch invasion. Tali can't communicate basic information. Raan doesn't even GIVE the order. Gerrel has no reason to believe the negotiation-killing geth are suddenly supposed to not be fired on.
Thinking that quarians are phsycic and can read geth minds: that's incompatent.

So in truth, NO, the quarians are NOT stupid and NOT amoral - just desperate and underinformed. Also, you just showed that you have again completely disregarded 133 pages of debating.

1.   The incompetence is the fact that as you say no one planned on them becoming sentient but they did.  They f**ked up.  When my car becomes sentient when I don't want it too then I will say humans f**ked up.  

2.  But they failed.  Their motivations are irrelevant.  They wanted to protect their future and children's future and failed so miserably at it that 2 billion people died.  There is no human group in the world that would call that anythng but a miserably failure.

3.  They can have Tali call her boyfriend and ask him to go find Legion to see if peace can be brokered. There is absolutely no evidence a Reaper attack was eminent.  They survived 300 years on the fleets.  They could have waited the few days or weeks it would have taken for Shepard to use the Normandy stealth systems to go find Legion.  I am her bf.  I will do it for Tali because I love her and I will do it for Legion because he saved my life and fought with me.  And they can't become self-sufficent on Rannoch in the blink of an eye.

4.  I know because Legion was living on a ship with Tali and I.  I don't need you to believe.  I need 3 Admirals to rely and undersand a simple message.  Stand down or you will die.  The issue of peace is irrelevant. The issue is do these Admirals want their people to live.  If so then they need to communicate the threat to each other.  They don't and they die.

So in conclusion, yes they are amoral, stupid and incompetent.  At every turn when their leaders try and help them, they end up dooming them without my involvement.

1. How the HELL do you have any control of that? It's not your fault that happens, nor is it your fault that there is a law from a higher government prohibiting it, or the fact that if you break that law, you get a turian boot up your ass.
The quarians had anything but control of the sitiuation. They panicked.

2. They didn't expect to fail. No one saw the geth as anything but fancy automated mechs that had echos of sapiance. The way the quarians saw it, it was literally either them or the quarians. Just like it was either the turians or the krogan. It may not have been the best corse of action, but you can hardly fault them for making the choice they made under extreme duress.

3. Tali DID have contact with Legion. And subsiquently had no proof to back anything Legion said as fact.
And again, the fact that the Reapers are diverting attention to the volus and hanar is proof enough that no species is worthless to the Reapers. Sooner or later, the Reapers WILL come for them, so why wait on their asses for death to come knock on their door? Why not do something to prevent it?
And if you choose them, the quarians become exactally that -self-sufficant in the blink of an eye. I remind you, they salvage the geth technology left behind.
And again, less then a week after ME2, Shepard turns himself/herself over to Alliance custody. Being a war criminal who blew up a Mass Relay, killed 300,000 batarians, sided with a terrorist network, and did so all for what the galaxy calls a myth, doesn't exactally leave you with a whole lot of credabilaty as a peacemaker.

4. Tali doesn't say "stand down or die." She simply says "break off your attack." When Shepard does say "stand down," Gerrel DOES stand down, so that isn't the problem. And again, Cerebrus ship. No reason to trust a single geth on a Cerberus ship. And again, one geth (few) vs the thousands that hit the Citadel (many) as example represenitives of their people.
So in conclusion, NO, they are NOT stupid, NOT incompatent, and NOT amoral. They are scared, desperate, and have no reason to take a geth at it's word.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

What's wrong is that it had to come to a choice or that people think a choice is nessesary.

The game is built on choices. Are really saying that you want less  choice from an ME title?

No, I find it sickening that the whole galaxy turned on the Geth. Initialy only a few Geth waged war while others choose not to. But something changed things and suddenly sent what was left of the quarian people fleeing from what was once their homeworld.
Apparently they were taken by shoch by a very sudden change in the resistance they were facing. Maybe the councils execution of of AI envoys to the citadel made the Geth that hadn't taken up arms against the quarians realize that there could be no peace. Suddenly the small uprising of a few Geth fightign back and the majority in hiding changed to all out war where all Geth realized they had t ofight or die because noone cared if they lived or died.
There was nothing holding the Geth back because the Quarians and the council had made the choice for them. They could have negotiated a peace and assigned the Geth their own planet or space in Quarian space peacefully, but instead they went along with trying to exterminate them and ignore any atempts at peace.

The Quarians and the council decided that the Geth had to die and then the choice was simple, fight or die. Why was it so important to fight them if they were prepared to talk about it? That's just xenophobia and prejudice.
The Quarians got driven off Rannoch because of a war that they choose to go through with even if it wasn't nessesary. Their "enemy" didn't even want to fight.

For God's sake, how many times must you be told that no one knew there was a Heretic split before you realize that no one knew there was a Heretic split? No one knew that the geth that attacked the Citadel represented a minority of the geth, and the geth made no effort to correct that ideal of them.

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm talking about the mournign war here, I don't think the Reapers were involved in that but I guess one can't be entierly sure abotu that. When the Quarians attacked the Geth in ME3 the galaxy didn't give a damn about either side, most thoguht the Quarians were insane to throw themselves at the geth in a time like this.

One man's insane is another man's novel idea.

A lot of people I know in real life think I'm truely nuts for throwing a leg over a dirt bike and racing it in closed-coursed competition, while I consider it to be great entertainment, a test of skill, and a rush unlike any otther.

It's really just two sides of the same, proverbial coin.

Well, at least the Quarians are consistenth, the Quarians seek war while the Geth don't. In both cases it nearly destroys their entire race and they complain about if after beign the ones to seek the challenge.

Instead of complaining they shoudl have said, damn we lost! 99% of our people died in the war we started but at least we had a lot of fun!

From the Geth's perspective they never wanted to fight and the war would have ended much sooner if they had wanted to end it sooner, instead tey stalled the Quarians looking for alternatives. When they ran out of alternatives then the Quarrians lost pretty much instantaneously. In the end the war lasted that long only because the Geth didn't want it. When the Geth realzied they had no other option the war eneded in an instant and the Quarians had to evacuate immediately and anyone failing to evacuate died soon after.

It's the Quarians fault on both cases. That's what matters to me. It also seems liek the council sided with the Quarians until they lost then they pulled their support and told the Quarians not to provoke the Geth any further out of fear that the Geth might respond less than well to any further provocation after all that they had been through.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

I'll take actual living, breathing, and self-aware organics over needlessly complicated toasters any day. 

What's wrong is that it had to come to a choice or that people think a choice is nessesary.

The game is built on choices. Are really saying that you want less  choice from an ME title?

No, I find it sickening that the whole galaxy turned on the Geth. Initialy only a few Geth waged war while others choose not to. But something changed things and suddenly sent what was left of the quarian people fleeing from what was once their homeworld.
Apparently they were taken by shoch by a very sudden change in the resistance they were facing. Maybe the councils execution of of AI envoys to the citadel made the Geth that hadn't taken up arms against the quarians realize that there could be no peace. Suddenly the small uprising of a few Geth fightign back and the majority in hiding changed to all out war where all Geth realized they had t ofight or die because noone cared if they lived or died.
There was nothing holding the Geth back because the Quarians and the council had made the choice for them. They could have negotiated a peace and assigned the Geth their own planet or space in Quarian space peacefully, but instead they went along with trying to exterminate them and ignore any atempts at peace.

The Quarians and the council decided that the Geth had to die and then the choice was simple, fight or die. Why was it so important to fight them if they were prepared to talk about it? That's just xenophobia and prejudice.
The Quarians got driven off Rannoch because of a war that they choose to go through with even if it wasn't nessesary. Their "enemy" didn't even want to fight.

For God's sake, how many times must you be told that no one knew there was a Heretic split before you realize that no one knew there was a Heretic split? No one knew that the geth that attacked the Citadel represented a minority of the geth, and the geth made no effort to correct that ideal of them.

I'm talking about the mouning war here, not the reaper war and the Heretics. The mourning war was what set the stage for the situation we face in the mass effect series. The treatment the Quarians and the council gave the geth and whatever fellow synthetics there might have been set the stage for this later conflict. That is the mouning war that happend approximately 300 years before the events of the mass effect series.
You are merely failign to understand what im telling you, and the conflict between the Geth and the Quarians in ME3 has it roots in the time of the mourning wars. It set the stage. The council even hid the fact that they killed the first diplomats that were trying to settle the conflict between synthetics and organics because they thoguht they would win and didn't need to resolve thing "peacefully", Quarian representatives probably had something to do wih the councils decition aswell telling them to terminate the geth and any synthetics that showed up.

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 avril 2013 - 09:33 .

[katamuro]

This thing is not dying down is it?

Many of us say many things here, but from perspective of pure human nature no matter who says what if in reality a choice would come down to choose between a synthetic species and organic species we as humans would choose the organics. After all they are closer to us and no matter the crimes of their forefathers we would choose a person over a machine no matter how advanced. And don't try to deny it.

After all we are organic and alive, it is part of our biology to choose similar creatures to survive. And I hope no one here is insane enough to choose to murder innocent people including children over a machine no matter how sentient.

[Steelcan]

The quarians seek war?

"After the quarians drove the geth into the Reapers arms I'd give anything to stop the madness of this war"
"I thought maybe there was the chance for peace"
"I begged them to negotiate rather than attack"
"The civilian fleet didnt want this war"

I can't hear you over quarians not wanting war.

[shodiswe]

Steelcan wrote...

The quarians seek war?

"After the quarians drove the geth into the Reapers arms I'd give anything to stop the madness of this war"
"I thought maybe there was the chance for peace"
"I begged them to negotiate rather than attack"
"The civilian fleet didnt want this war"

I can't hear you over quarians not wanting war.

So that's why they armed their ships and entered Geth space guns blazing? Because they didn't want a war?
However im sure there might have been some civilians including the Admiral of the civilian fleet who didn't want the war but the political leadership wanted the war, they armed themselves and their people strappign guns to their schoolbusses to to speak and sent them off to battle. Not because they were attacked but because they decided to go to war.
I can't see how anyone can deny this simple fact. It's one of the most undeniable of facts out there, we all know who attacked who. Both times.

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 avril 2013 - 09:39 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Nope. Shepard either actively encourages the upload and chooses to withhold that information from the quarians, fully aware of the consequences, or Shepard refuses to support the upload and subsequently fends off an attempt on his life (or is rescued, rather - Shepard doesn't have to shoot). In non-peace outcomes, regardless of which species dies, Shepard is responsible. There's no ducking that.

I disagree.  Shep allows the upload and then gives either Tali and Raan an order to call off the fleet.  He can't be responsible for micro-managing every aspect of the war.  If you give two supposedly capable Admirals an order to call off their fleets and they fail to be able to communicate that to Gherel appropritatley and he fails to question why the order was given then the Quarians die to to Quarian incompetence.  In War you rely on competent subordinates carrying out their duties.  The Quarians are suppose to be competent.  They apparently are not and potentially pay for their incompetence with their lives.

In fact, without the Reaper Code, that is more incentive for Gherel to fire.  One of the reasons he stops during the peace option is because he is told the code is uploading.  If Legion had not uploaded the code then there is really no reason for Gherel to even consider listening to Shepard and he would likely fire on the defenseless Geth.

[Steelcan]

shodiswe wrote...

So that's why they armed their ships and entered Geth space guns blazing? Because they didn't want a war?
However im sure there might have been some civilians including the Admiral of the civilian fleet who didn't want the war but the political leadership wanted the war, they armed themselves and their people strappign guns to their schoolbusses to to speak and sent them off to battle. Not because they were attacked but because they decided to go to war.
I can't see how anyone can deny this simple fact. It's one of the most undeniable of facts out there, we all know who attacked who. Both times.

. They didnt have a choice. It was either fight the geth in what was seen as an unrisky war, or let the Reapers rip them apart in space.

Modifié par Steelcan, 02 avril 2013 - 09:41 .

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

They are mere machines that are controllable by outside forces. (The Reapers proved that.) Who's to say evil deeds wouldn't be done through them, the geth becoming proxies for said actions?

The geth are simply a tool to be used.

:innocent:

You mean like TIM and all the other organics Leviathan and the Reapers have enthralled or indoctrinated?  So sweet, you just justified the Reapers use of organics as tools.  They clearly have the ability to program organics to do as they want them to so they have no obligationn to respect an organics right to live.

I sincerely hope you don't actually play the game and fight against the Reapers.  Organics are clearly inferior to them and thus should accept their fate.  Resistance is futile!

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 09:43 .

[robertthebard]

silverexile17s wrote...

Besides, did you see the rest of the galaxy?
Cerberus pumping themselves with Reaper tech and thinking they won't get indoctrinated?
The Alliance hiding a doomsday archive on Mars?
The Krogan holding the war effort hostage for a genophage cure?
The Turians hiding a bomb on Tuchanka?
The Salarians trying to undercut the krogan-turian alliance that serves as the Galaxy's best hope?
Udina selling out to Cerberus?
The Asari hiding the key to understanding the Crucible on Thessia?
The war effort wecloming the Leviathans -the creators of the Reapers into their fold with open arms, no qualms?
The entire galaxy banking all hope on a device that no one knows anything about?
You have to admit: ME3 projects an image of a galaxy where mutual trust and rational, long-term thinking isn't in big supply, is it?

Sorry for the snips, but just wanted to touch on these, since some of them are in error:

The archive on Mars was known to everyone.  This very archive is mentioned in the beginning of ME 1 as this is the archive that Anderson is referring to when he talks about it jumping our tech ahead 200 years.  All things being equal, I'd bet they wished they'd waited about 100 years to find it.

The Turians hid the bomb on Tuchanka right at the end of the Krogan Rebellion, 1400 years ago.

They didn't know for sure if the beacon on Thessia held the key to determining what the Catalyst is, and either Asari councilor will make that plain in dialog.  However, they are guilty of hiding Prothean tech.

The Leviathans didn't create the Reapers, they created what came to be known as the Catalyst, which then created the first Reaper, out of the Leviathans.  "My creators gave them form, I gave them function".  It modeled them after the Leviathans, but they did not create them.

You are correct that they know nothing about the Crucible.  However, they are also watching systems fall faster than they can evacuate colonies.  So, this is a desperate play, in a desperate situation.  I had no problem understanding why they'd do it.  It's not like it's the first time that people used something that they weren't sure about to win a war, the US did it with the Atomic Bomb in WW II.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Steelcan wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

So that's why they armed their ships and entered Geth space guns blazing? Because they didn't want a war?
However im sure there might have been some civilians including the Admiral of the civilian fleet who didn't want the war but the political leadership wanted the war, they armed themselves and their people strappign guns to their schoolbusses to to speak and sent them off to battle. Not because they were attacked but because they decided to go to war.
I can't see how anyone can deny this simple fact. It's one of the most undeniable of facts out there, we all know who attacked who. Both times.

. They didnt have a choice. It was either fight the geth in what was seen as an unrisky war, or let the Reapers rip them apart in space.

It turns out the Quarians attacked because getting their asses handed to them on a genocidal level is the ultimate turn on for them.

They just want to make sweet sweet love to genocidal warfare! [/sarcasm]

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

They are mere machines that are controllable by outside forces. (The Reapers proved that.) Who's to say evil deeds wouldn't be done through them, the geth becoming proxies for said actions?

The geth are simply a tool to be used.

:innocent:

  Resistance is futile!

Except it isn't...you know because we win, and unlike the Geth we didn't have to run crying to space cthulhus to do it.

[shodiswe]

Steelcan wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

So that's why they armed their ships and entered Geth space guns blazing? Because they didn't want a war?
However im sure there might have been some civilians including the Admiral of the civilian fleet who didn't want the war but the political leadership wanted the war, they armed themselves and their people strappign guns to their schoolbusses to to speak and sent them off to battle. Not because they were attacked but because they decided to go to war.
I can't see how anyone can deny this simple fact. It's one of the most undeniable of facts out there, we all know who attacked who. Both times.

. They didnt have a choice. It was either fight the geth in what was seen as an I risky war, or let the Reapers rip them apart in space.

They didn't have to attack the Geth, they merely tried to justify their position and they used the advantage of their new weapons program and the fact that the council couldn't enforce their demands that noone is to provoke the Geth. They knew the Council was too busy with the Repers to intervene or sanction them.
If they wanted peace then they could have found a suitable planet 300 years ago, within one century they would have adapted fully. However that wasn't in their nature, maybe they had the unfortune to have set themselves up to go to war centuries earlier and thier options were therefor fewer.
But everyone knows that when you're already at war with an enemy (Reaper) then it's foolish to start another war because then you will get caught on a two front war. It's the stupidity visited by Napoleon and Hitler, tryng to take on the whole world at once. It's tactical and political suicide, and history proves it.

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

They didnt have a choice. It was either fight the geth in what was seen as an unrisky war, or let the Reapers rip them apart in space.

Did the Reapers ever attack the Quarians first?  The whole galaxy was being reaped and there is no proof a Reaper even cared about the Quarians before the Quarians delivered the Geth into their arms.  After peace is achieved, I don't recall evidence to suggest the Reapers even bothered to try and attack Rannoch.  So I see no evidence the Reapers had any immediate plans to rip them apart and space.

And here is a thought.  They lived on the Flotilla for 300 years.  Maybe they could have waited a few days or weeks while Tali asked her boyfried to go find Legion and see if the Geth want to agree to peace and unite against the Reapers before launching into war with them.