4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

 No it isn't.  The quarians could be cut off tomorrow.  As soon as they have the ability to take their home world the should seize it, and that's what they did.  

Yes let's seize a planet that can't support us just so if the Reapers do actually want to attack, they know exactly where to find us.  Our only advantage is unlike other races we are completely mobile and we don't have a stationary planet to protect but's take that away  to set up shop on a planet that has spent 300 years without any sentient organic inhabitants and realistically would take months or years to terra form.  All the while, we will hope those Reapers who we launched a war for fear they will attack tomorrow actually don't attack tomorrow while we are ill prepared to fight because resources and liveships are devoted to feeding civilians on Rannoch because the planet is not ready for habitation.

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...


Yes let's seize a planet that can't support us just so if the Reapers do actually want to attack, they know exactly where to find us.  Our only advantage is unlike other races we are completely mobile and we don't have a stationary planet to protect but's take that away  to set up shop on a planet that has spent 300 years without any sentient organic inhabitants and realistically would take months or years to terra form.  All the while, we will hope those Reapers who we launched a war for fear they will attack tomorrow actually don't attack tomorrow while we are ill prepared to fight because resources and liveships are devoted to feeding civilians on Rannoch because the planet is not ready for habitation.

. Except the planet can support them.  It's the only one that can.  This is made abundantly clear in ME2/3, Legion even mentions how they have maintained its ecosystem.  

If the Reapers block a relay then their entire species is helpless.  They can't outrun them, they can't outgun them and it takes days for them all to go through a relay.

And once they have unloaded their civilians they can then use their fleet to fight the war.

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
Yes, it's also why Rann abstains her vote in Tali's trial in ME2. People who are too partial can't see clearly, they are too biased. This is clearly the case here. 

Rann did what was right, a prinicpal no machine could ever understand.

I have no idea what you're saying, did the "machines" or Geth do something to the counter of that? I really don't think you understand what i'm trying to say. But I agree Rann did the right thing to abstain her vote, partial judges arn't normaly allowed in procedings in most earth courts. It was shocking enough that she was allowed to participate and stay in the center of the process to begin with. Where I live that would be seen as a misstrial.(I think that's the english word) But at least she knew enough to not vote. It was probably standard procedure that partial admirals don't vote.

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

Come again? I'm the one trying to disengage here.
I'm pro-quarian and your pro-geth. I do believe there is nothing left to discuss.

I was making a joke or more precisely illustrating how art imitates life.  When you start something, you can't always control how it ends.  The Quarians started a war and couldn't control how it ended with the Geth.  You made some jokes and I responded and now that you want to disengage, I am not obliged to agree.

The lesson there is don't start something unless you are prepared to take it to the bitter end, lol.  

And I am just messing with you.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 10:17 .

[DeinonSlayer]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 No it isn't.  The quarians could be cut off tomorrow.  As soon as they have the ability to take their home world the should seize it, and that's what they did.  

Yes let's seize a planet that can't support us just so if the Reapers do actually want to attack, they know exactly where to find us.  Our only advantage is unlike other races we are completely mobile and we don't have a stationary planet to protect but's take that away  to set up shop on a planet that has spent 300 years without any sentient organic inhabitants and realistically would take months or years to terra form.  All the while, we will hope those Reapers who we launched a war for fear they will attack tomorrow actually don't attack tomorrow while we are ill prepared to fight because resources and liveships are devoted to feeding civilians on Rannoch because the planet is not ready for habitation.

Let's stop pretending that they're safe or capable of hiding in space, okay? A fleet which takes days to traverse a relay, which has to constantly scavenge for resources to stay alive in the best of times, weighed down with civilians such that they have to huddle together to keep everyone fed, is not going to be "launching guerilla raids" or taking the logistical burden off the other races. The Reapers could scout through the relay network VERY quickly. If they're detected, they can't run fast enough to escape. One Reaper spearing the three liveships with one shot each will kill the entire species.

[shodiswe]

Scepsis wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
I have no idea what you're saying, did the "machines" or Geth do something to the counter of that? I really don't think you understand what i'm trying to say. But I agree Rann did the right thing to abstain her vote, partial judges arn't normaly allowed in procedings in most earth courts. It was shocking enough that she was allowed to participate and stay in the center of the process to begin with. Where I live that would be seen as a misstrial.(I think that's the english word) But at least she knew enough to not vote. It was probably standard procedure that partial admirals don't vote.

The whole trial was a sham. Tali was just a target for her father's misgivings.
So yes, it was a mistrail indeed.

What I was talkign about was partiality clouding ones judgement. Your judgement in this case. Tali's trial was about a lot more than Tali, it was Koris atempt to make the warmongers look bad for killing their people with their recklessness. He was right they were gettign thier peopel killed and without Shepards intervention they would have died in ME3 and in ME2 they would have had to destroy the Alarei after loosing a few squads of mariens that tried to investigate and recapture it.

However, Talid did bring geth parts and pieces back to the fleet for her father to experiment with, she was part of that accident that caused the loss of a lot of Quarian lives. Her crime was lesser than her fathers however since she followed orders and didn't realize the scope of what was goign on. But she wasn't completely innocent, and that's the truth. In a way the death of her father was probably punnishment enough even if that isn't how the law normaly operates.

[shodiswe]

Anyway it's past midnight for me, good night.
So enjoy the debate of what's right or wrong or how love makes anything right and acceptable.

[remydat]

Steelcan wrote...

 Except the planet can support them.  It's the only one that can.  This is made abundantly clear in ME2/3, Legion even mentions how they have maintained its ecosystem.  

If the Reapers block a relay then their entire species is helpless.  They can't outrun them, they can't outgun them and it takes days for them all to go through a relay.

And once they have unloaded their civilians they can then use their fleet to fight the war.

The planet cannot support them immediately.  It would take time to do so.  Legion only mentions they have cleaned up toxins.  You really think the Geth have maintained every farm from being overrun by weeds, jungle or insects and bacteria that eat planets?  Even if you do, the Quarians don't know that the Geth have maintained it because they believe the Geth are evil.  Finally, even it hey had, there is no guarantee that without Reaper end, the Geth don't scorch the earth like many organic armies do when they know they are about to lose terroritory and don't want the enemy to use it effectively.

If the Reapers come to Rannoch their entire species is helpless.  They can't outrun them, they can't out gun them and it will take days for the Heavy flight fighting elsewhere to come to their aid.

A planet can't move.  A fleet can.  How do you propose the Quarians can defend themselves with say 10 million people on Rannoch with their fleet elsewhere and most of their survival still depending on liveships because it will take months to planet and harvest crops.  Also if the Geth had destroyed their bases before fleeing Rannoch if no Reaper had assisted them then how would the Quarians defend themselves?  Do you think it takes days to rebuild a defensible planet?

[Steelcan]

Just after reading some of this stuff....

[Steelcan]

remydat wrote...

The planet cannot support them immediately.  It would take time to do so.  Legion only mentions they have cleaned up toxins.  You really think the Geth have maintained every farm from being overrun by weeds, jungle or insects and bacteria that eat planets?  Even if you do, the Quarians don't know that the Geth have maintained it because they believe the Geth are evil.  Finally, even it hey had, there is no guarantee that without Reaper end, the Geth don't scorch the earth like many organic armies do when they know they are about to lose terroritory and don't want the enemy to use it effectively.

If the Reapers come to Rannoch their entire species is helpless.  They can't outrun them, they can't out gun them and it will take days for the Heavy flight fighting elsewhere to come to their aid.

A planet can't move.  A fleet can.  How do you propose the Quarians can defend themselves with say 10 million people on Rannoch with their fleet elsewhere and most of their survival still depending on liveships because it will take months to planet and harvest crops.  Also if the Geth had destroyed their bases before fleeing Rannoch if no Reaper had assisted them then how would the Quarians defend themselves?  Do you think it takes days to rebuild a defensible planet?

. It is still better than waiting in space to be obliterated

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

 Except the planet can support them.  It's the only one that can.  This is made abundantly clear in ME2/3, Legion even mentions how they have maintained its ecosystem.  

If the Reapers block a relay then their entire species is helpless.  They can't outrun them, they can't outgun them and it takes days for them all to go through a relay.

And once they have unloaded their civilians they can then use their fleet to fight the war.

The planet cannot support them immediately.  It would take time to do so.  Legion only mentions they have cleaned up toxins.  You really think the Geth have maintained every farm from being overrun by weeds, jungle or insects and bacteria that eat planets?  Even if you do, the Quarians don't know that the Geth have maintained it because they believe the Geth are evil.  Finally, even it hey had, there is no guarantee that without Reaper end, the Geth don't scorch the earth like many organic armies do when they know they are about to lose terroritory and don't want the enemy to use it effectively.

If the Reapers come to Rannoch their entire species is helpless.  They can't outrun them, they can't out gun them and it will take days for the Heavy flight fighting elsewhere to come to their aid.

A planet can't move.  A fleet can.  How do you propose the Quarians can defend themselves with say 10 million people on Rannoch with their fleet elsewhere and most of their survival still depending on liveships because it will take months to planet and harvest crops.  Also if the Geth had destroyed their bases before fleeing Rannoch if no Reaper had assisted them then how would the Quarians defend themselves?  Do you think it takes days to rebuild a defensible planet?

We're told it will take 60 years for the Quarians to adapt to Rannoch. 100 years to full adapt to antoher dextro planet. no matter how you look at it Rannoch woudln't support them any better than any other Dextro planet for the next 60 years. Therefor it's not of any consequence for the Reaper war. They can make nutripaste of plants from other planets plant life and soli just the same as Rannoch. For the first 60 years it would make no difference. Unless they consuder the loot obtained from Geth settlements to be what makes it worth it.

Good night then.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'll just toss this out there:

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'll just toss this out there:

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

Yes, the necessity of 60 years compared to 100 years. One coudl ask if it's worth it considerign the cost. After a 100 years they would be just as well adapted to their new planet as they were with Rannoch. And in the time time window of the Reaper war that difference makes no difference.

Note that is says for many quarians it's a matter of both colutral and physilogical necessity. It's not a necessity for survival, they can survive and flurish without it but it's a political oint of view, not a fact. Just like soem peopel have the view they have a manifest destiny to conquer or reclain past glory, like the Krogan dreaming of lost glory from when they were conquering the galaxy and expanding their empire. So it's a political idea not a bilogical necessity for their survival.

Modifié par shodiswe, 02 avril 2013 - 10:42 .

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Let's stop pretending that they're safe or capable of hiding in space, okay? A fleet which takes days to traverse a relay, which has to constantly scavenge for resources to stay alive in the best of times, weighed down with civilians such that they have to huddle together to keep everyone fed, is not going to be "launching guerilla raids" or taking the logistical burden off the other races. The Reapers could scout through the relay network VERY quickly. If they're detected, they can't run fast enough to escape. One Reaper spearing the three liveships with one shot each will kill the entire species.

I am not sure I understand the point about taking days to traverse a relay.  In reality crossing that vast area of space would take hundreds or if not thousands of light years so a few days is fast.  Is there any evidence that someone can be attacked while traversing a relay.  You are creating a break in space time essentially so not sure what your point is here.

If the Reapers want to kill the Quarians, they have to find them.  If they want to kill the Quarians on Rannoch, they know exactly where they are.  Again, it will take months if not years for Rannoch to support life completely free of the liveships.  They have no knowledge the Geth have maintained anything and they have no guarantee the Geth without the Reapers would not have posioned farmland and destroyed bases and other infrastructure rather than allow Rannoch to be captured.  These guys allegedly used chemical weapons after all.

So how exactly is a stationary rock easier to defend than a mobile fleet that can run?  We are not talking about a fully developed planet with billions of people and with infracture that has been maintained continuosly. We are talking about a rock that only a few million can defend and that for all the Quarians know the land is poisoned and the Geth will destroy bases and infrastructure rather than let it get in enemies hands.  And if the Reapers wanted to kill them then they could easily destroy that entire planet since there is very little point in harvesting a race of 17 million people.

So you are starting a war for nostalgia really.  That rock is no better a defense unless you pretend like everything will perfectly go right and the Geth in their infinite kindness basically leave you a well maintained planet with all bases and fortifications in tact.

[Steelcan]

If the Reapers find the Migrant fleet it is all over. If the quarians take Rannoch they have a fighting chance

[Steelcan]

@Shodiswe, Tali's exact words, "It's the difference between 60 years and 600". Not 100. Besides, she doesn't know that the geth have maintained Rannoch

[remydat]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'll just toss this out there:

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

And the Quarians know this how?  Are they game players who can read the codex?  Furthermore, can they be certain the Geth won't burn or poision farmland or destroy bases now that the people they had been maintaining the land for once again try to kill them.

You are bascially saying the Quarians launched a war against an enemy they hate and think is evil while simulataneously imagining that those evil machines were kind enough to keep everything running well for them and then won't blow it all up once we try and exterminate them.

It's a pretty illogical position but look I understand they were desperate and when you are desperate you don't think logically.  However, we can think logically and it makes no sense to me.