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[silverexile17s]

robertthebard wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Besides, did you see the rest of the galaxy?
Cerberus pumping themselves with Reaper tech and thinking they won't get indoctrinated?
The Alliance hiding a doomsday archive on Mars?
The Krogan holding the war effort hostage for a genophage cure?
The Turians hiding a bomb on Tuchanka?
The Salarians trying to undercut the krogan-turian alliance that serves as the Galaxy's best hope?
Udina selling out to Cerberus?
The Asari hiding the key to understanding the Crucible on Thessia?
The war effort wecloming the Leviathans -the creators of the Reapers into their fold with open arms, no qualms?
The entire galaxy banking all hope on a device that no one knows anything about?
You have to admit: ME3 projects an image of a galaxy where mutual trust and rational, long-term thinking isn't in big supply, is it?

Sorry for the snips, but just wanted to touch on these, since some of them are in error:

The archive on Mars was known to everyone.  This very archive is mentioned in the beginning of ME 1 as this is the archive that Anderson is referring to when he talks about it jumping our tech ahead 200 years.  All things being equal, I'd bet they wished they'd waited about 100 years to find it.

The Turians hid the bomb on Tuchanka right at the end of the Krogan Rebellion, 1400 years ago.

They didn't know for sure if the beacon on Thessia held the key to determining what the Catalyst is, and either Asari councilor will make that plain in dialog.  However, they are guilty of hiding Prothean tech.

The Leviathans didn't create the Reapers, they created what came to be known as the Catalyst, which then created the first Reaper, out of the Leviathans.  "My creators gave them form, I gave them function".  It modeled them after the Leviathans, but they did not create them.

You are correct that they know nothing about the Crucible.  However, they are also watching systems fall faster than they can evacuate colonies.  So, this is a desperate play, in a desperate situation.  I had no problem understanding why they'd do it.  It's not like it's the first time that people used something that they weren't sure about to win a war, the US did it with the Atomic Bomb in WW II.

No, it WASN'T. TIM personally says "The Alliance has known about the Archives for 30 years, and what have they done with it?" The Alliance kept the nature of the information secret.

And subsiquently told nobody about it when it was a massive threat to krogan relations. Even when Cerberus was priming to detonate the thing, they kept it hidden.

And that still doesn't change the fact that all this time, when prothean tech was in desperate demand, they wait till the Reapers are right at the doorstep to tell people. Or the fact that they hid the tech at all, remember?

They still were responcible, and say they have no remorse for what happened, or that any of it was a mistake. And they have shown that they are extremely self-serving and selfish. That the entire galaxy just trusts them like that is insane. I mean, look at the facts.
Galaxy's hero and first human Spectre: Can't trust his word, he worked with Cerberus.
Legion - can't trust him. One geth isn't an accurate sample size vs the thousands that attacked the Citadel.
Leviathans - caused the creation of the Reapers and show no remorse to do anything to keep their own skins safe - let's share all our war and census data!
You REALLY see no problem here? How blind faith and unfounded mutual trust comes into play in the times where it makes no sense?

And again, playing with a loaded gun. They already know it's at least ment to interact with the Relay Network. For all they know, the thing will blow up any relay it hits. And if you can understand the desperation in using the Crucible, why don't you understand the desperation the quarians are fuled by to retake Rannoch?

[Ryzaki]

...

*sigh*

I really want to see how many people who go "they should've chosen death!" would actually choose death over slavery should push come to shove. I suspect not many.

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

...

*sigh*

I really want to see how many people who go "they should've chosen death!" would actually choose death over slavery should push come to shove. I suspect not many.

There is a clear diferrence between slavery, and getting your mind wiped.

The Geth were no longer themselves with the Reaper code.

[Ryzaki]

Scepsis wrote...
One man's trash is another man's treasure.
Whatevs though, the geth are scrapmetal in my canon.
:innocent:

And the Quarians are dead in mine with Tali throwing herself off the cliff crying.



So we both win.

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

There is a clear diferrence between slavery, and getting your mind wiped.

The Geth were no longer themselves with the Reaper code.

I suspect Legion would disagree.

[ghost9191]

Ryzaki wrote...

...

*sigh*

I really want to see how many people who go "they should've chosen death!" would actually choose death over slavery should push come to shove. I suspect not many.

there is more to life than living one more day


but suppose being only concerned for yourself ( not you , ppl  that are selfish and such ) and what not might push ppl to do it


there are worst causes to die for :innocent:



and as said, it is one thing to submit to save yourself. but another to submit and kill billions jsut to save your own ass.... pretty sure a major point of sheps story was you know self sacrifice and such to save others... 
well most

Modifié par ghost9191, 02 avril 2013 - 11:38 .

[Ryzaki]

Scepsis wrote...
Goddamn, that scene was heartbreaking.
Such a good time for a quick reload of my last save after I tried that option.

Found the scene melodramatic honestly especially with Shep's run to catch her. Meh. The scene before it with the exploding Quarian ships that was better and felt less ridculous.

Shooting Mordin meanwhile. That was heartbreaking (and shooting Legion I just can't).

@ghost: that's great for you honestly. I'm not gonna be angry at someone who dares to want to live and turns to someone they shouldn't have out of desperation. I'm angry at the people who put them in that situation in the first place.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 avril 2013 - 11:40 .

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

There is a clear diferrence between slavery, and getting your mind wiped.

The Geth were no longer themselves with the Reaper code.

I suspect Legion would disagree.

I could care less what Legion thinks.

If the Reapers offered me the same deal, I would give them the finger. 

[remydat]

On a lighter note, I am kind of disappointed in my organic brothers and sisters outside of Shepard. I mean what have they actually accomplished. Leviathan's greatest achievement was creating the synthetics that would kill them.

Ever since every civilization has advanced because of Reaper tech and for any where from millions or billions of years have been getting their a** handed to them by the Reapers. Hell, even Shep's victory is only possible because of EDI, the Geth (if you save them) and most importantly the Catalyst ie the dude who has orchestrated the organic a** kicking for millions or billions of years.

I mean realy, I wonder if Star Kid didn't just get bored and give organics the idea to build the Crucible just to spice sh*t up. He probably got bored of beating up the hapless organics and so was like f**k it, this sh*t ain't fun no more. I mean how else did Organics get this idea to build the Crucible with the most important piece to making it all work being a synthetic. I mean really guys, does the Catalyst have to hold your hand through all this sh*t?

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
Besides, did you see the rest of the galaxy?

You have to admit: ME3 projects an image of a galaxy where mutual trust and rational, long-term thinking isn't in big supply, is it?

I don't know if much would have changed if the Council could tell the Heretics from the rest of the Geth. The Galaxy probably would have just went on to say "How do we know there aren't more heretics" just to keep on keeping on. I mean, in ME1 the council didn't even want to acknowledge humans as being a part of the galatic community or they were very bias toward any other races but the council races. Acknowledging yet another race that could rise up and share power probably wouldn't be in their best interest.

I think if Earth was the last planet to be attacked and we were already dealing with one threat that wished to take it from us, we wouldn't be rushing out to attack the new mega threat either. In the worst case scenario the Geth would have to deal with both the Quarians and the Reapers. Sadly the worst case scenario is just what they got when the Quarians attacked. If they turned down the Reapers and chose to fight them too, they would be dealing with two overwhelming forces. If the Reapers wanted to, they could have just waited the Geth/Quarians war out. Let the Quarians kill the Geth and waste their ships and firepower doing it, then land on Rannoch and destory the Quarians.  Easiest victory ever.

Right, no one should just outright trust the Geth. I've said it before. The Geth doesn't owe the other races anything and they don't owe the Geth anything. No one was interested in making peace with anyone, not even while the Reapers were killing everyone. However, I do have to hand it to the Geth for at least extending a hand for peace themselves without needing Shepard to do it for them.

With all honestly, I hated almost every race in the galaxy. I do like that the writers don't protray any race as being perfect, they all have their screw ups and flaws, including the Geth. They all chose to ignore warnings about the Reapers then act shocked when Reapers show up and they are not prepared. I admit that banking everything on one device isn't the wisest choice, but with nothing else to go on, and the fact that the last races were trying to build it 50,000 years ago, make it a better deal then nothing.

Leigon doesn't concede, he had already offered assistance in stopping the Geth.  There is just no point in talking to Shepard after she says that renegade interrupt. Not going further into the discussion, especially when the other party is dead set on their views doesn't mean they agree with them.  I see no point in him arguing with Shepard who sees the Geth as nothing but machines.

Perhaps, but at the very least, the Council wouldn't be able to just shoot down the geth and say "they never tried to make peace"  anymore. They wouldn't be able to say the geth were just killers.

Part of me wonders if the Reapers knew the quarians were going to attack, and were trying ot coroce the geth beforehand into joining them with threats that if they don't join, the quarians will attack. Maybe debates on if the Reapers were being truthful was part of the reason the geth were in turmoil?

Actually, I think Legion's contact with Shepard was what got them thinking. If anything, Legion's positive experance is what makes the geth re-ignite the debate on if it's worth it.

And still, there are examples that do show lack of foresight, in both the long-term (Udina's coup) and the short-term (Dalatrass trying to sabotage the cure).

So your saying Legion gives up? On what though? Saving the geth, or talking to Shepard?

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

There is a clear diferrence between slavery, and getting your mind wiped.

The Geth were no longer themselves with the Reaper code.

I suspect Legion would disagree.

I could care less what Legion thinks.

If the Reapers offered me the same deal, I would give them the finger. 

Funny considering he's the one who would actually you know how the Geth had changed.

That's great for you really. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 02 avril 2013 - 11:42 .

[Ryzaki]

Scepsis wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Scepsis wrote...
Goddamn, that scene was heartbreaking.
Such a good time for a quick reload of my last save after I tried that option.

Found the scene melodramatic honestly especially with Shep's run to catch her. Meh. The scene before it with the exploding Quarian ships that was better and felt less ridculous.

Shooting Mordin meanwhile. That was heartbreaking (and shooting Legion I just can't).

Wow. You must be fun at parties.
How is Shepard diving to save his lover or his/her friend melodramatic?

Please let's not bring personal lives into this. I rather not do the personal attacks game.

A. game assumes Shep cares about her or doesn't respect her choice to end it. That's how it's melodramatic. If it worked for you great. Didn't work for me.

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

Goddamn, that scene was heartbreaking.
Such a good time for a quick reload of my last save after I tried that option.

Yeah that pargon interupt was just mean.  I actually thought I would catch her when I pressed it.  Can't give a man hope like that.  It was very Last of the Mohicans for me.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'll just toss this out there:

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

Yes, the necessity of 60 years compared to 100 years. One coudl ask if it's worth it considerign the cost. After a 100 years they would be just as well adapted to their new planet as they were with Rannoch. And in the time time window of the Reaper war that difference makes no difference.

Note that is says for many quarians it's a matter of both colutral and physilogical necessity. It's not a necessity for survival, they can survive and flurish without it but it's a political oint of view, not a fact. Just like soem peopel have the view they have a manifest destiny to conquer or reclain past glory, like the Krogan dreaming of lost glory from when they were conquering the galaxy and expanding their empire. So it's a political idea not a bilogical necessity for their survival.

Umm....... that's not true. Tali says it;s the difference between 60 years, and 600 years.
NOT 100. 600 years.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

It is still better than waiting in space to be obliterated

Isn't that what they did for 300 years?  Or did they trust that the kind hearted Geth would never think to finish the job as they floated about in space all that time?

That's exactally the point. Negitive feelings for the geth was NOT the reason they marched to war. It was to secure their future against the Reapers.

[Ryzaki]

Scepsis wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Please let's not bring personal lives into this. I rather not do the personal attacks game. 

A. game assumes Shep cares about her or doesn't respect her choice to end it. That's how it's melodramatic. If it worked for you great. Didn't work for me.

You're not the kind of comopany I whish to keep, therefore, we're done here.
Ciao.
<_<

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Their fleet is barely holding together.  

And they did worry abut the geth persuing them, this why they are still under military rule.

But yet never tried to settle another planet?  Like I said, get Shep on the phone and tell him to talk to the Geth.  That is an alternative with little risk.  It works great, it doesn't at least you tried.

They DID try to settle another planet. Multiple times. Ekuna was a world they discovered. It was barely hospitable to them, but they were desperate. When they asked the Council for rights to ownership of the planet, the Council forced them off at gunpoint and handed the quarian's newly-discovered world to the elcor.
As I said, a dextro-based life-sustaining world that macthes Rannoch's insect-free, mammal-dependant symbiotic ecology is exceedingly rare. To the point where the only world like it is Rannoch itself. Hence why they needed it back.

[Khelish]

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

Goddamn, that scene was heartbreaking.
Such a good time for a quick reload of my last save after I tried that option.

Yeah that pargon interupt was just mean.  I actually thought I would catch her when I pressed it.  Can't give a man hope like that.  It was very Last of the Mohicans for me.

Surprised you care, like, at all. 

You really shocked?

He claims killing off her entire race should not effect Tali to such an extent... 

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

Surprised you care, like, at all. 

Tali is my love interest bro.  I always choose peace.  Only times I didn't was just to see the other ends and watching Tali and Legion die was tough.  Those deaths as well as killing Mordin or Wrex are tough to see man.

Another one that is small but just hits me is when I realized that Krogan during the Rachni mission (Charr) who died and left a message for his Asari widow was the same dude from ME2 on Illium.  I reunited him with his wife and they get married bro.  And then he dies for the cause.

Modifié par remydat, 02 avril 2013 - 11:53 .