4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Something else to think about: In Ascension, we're told the Migrant Fleet is eighty years from death - the population is stable, but ships are wearing out faster than they can be replaced, meaning they'll run out of livable space. One of those things people wouldn't be aware of going solely off of what the games tell them.

So they can't ask Shep to go talk to the Geth about peace because they think it will take him 80 years to find the Geth?  80 years is not an immediate threat. 

People are confusing the issue I think.  People where claiming they had no alternative as if there was an immediate threat on their lives.  There wasn't.  The Reapers appear to have no interest in them and sweet in 80 years there may screwed.  Guess that means we can't take a few days or weeks for Shep to go track down the Geth.

They can't ask Shepard because the Commander is in Alliance lock-up for being Cerberus-asscoiated, and for blowing the Alpha Relay to hell with 300,000 lives. So not only can they not get to Shepard, but they have zero reason to trust the Commander, as Shepard is now-branded a lunitic.

[DeinonSlayer]

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

Surprised you care, like, at all. 

Tali is my love interest bro.  I always choose peace.  Only times I didn't was just to see the other ends and watching Tali and Legion die was tough.

I'm a Destroyer, so peace is irrelevent.
Kind of a hardcore Talimancer myself.
I just cannot support the geth.

The first is metagaming, the second should not factor into one's decision, and the third requires substantiation.

Same applies to the endings. Speaking as a Destroyer myself, I believe that those who choose Destroy so Shepard has a shot at survival are doing it for the wrong reasons.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 02 avril 2013 - 11:56 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

You really shocked?

He claims killing off her entire race should not effect Tali to such an extent... 

Way to make up sh*t just because you disagree with someone.  I said Shep was obvisouly not expecting suicide otherwise he would not have had his back turned as he did it.  I don't control how the scene plays out.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

They can't ask Shepard because the Commander is in Alliance lock-up for being Cerberus-asscoiated, and for blowing the Alpha Relay to hell with 300,000 lives. So not only can they not get to Shepard, but they have zero reason to trust the Commander, as Shepard is now-branded a lunitic.

Pretty sure the game takes place over months not days.  They mention they attacked 17 days ago.  Pretty sure all those previous missions took longer than 17 days.  Tali could have contacted me before the attack.

[DeinonSlayer]

Scepsis wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

Surprised you care, like, at all. 

Tali is my love interest bro.  I always choose peace.  Only times I didn't was just to see the other ends and watching Tali and Legion die was tough.

I'm a Destroyer, so peace is irrelevent.
Kind of a hardcore Talimancer myself.
I just cannot support the geth.

The first is metagaming, the second should not factor into one's decision, and the third requires substantiation.

Thanks for telling me?
Not like I cared in the first place.

Just saying. The reasoning one uses is as important as the decision itself.

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

Tali being Shepard's lover would factor into the decision, just as the player morals would.

When in doubt, go with whoever is putting out hey, lol.

[Ryzaki]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

Surprised you care, like, at all. 

Tali is my love interest bro.  I always choose peace.  Only times I didn't was just to see the other ends and watching Tali and Legion die was tough.

I'm a Destroyer, so peace is irrelevent.
Kind of a hardcore Talimancer myself.
I just cannot support the geth.

The first is metagaming, the second should not factor into one's decision, and the third requires substantiation.

Same applies to the endings. Speaking as a Destroyer myself, I believe that those who choose Destroy so Shepard has a shot at survival are doing it for the wrong reasons.

I pick destroy because for some baffling reason it's the only choice that gets rid of the Reapers.

[ghost9191]

geth submitting to reapers is not survival. body surviving and mind being destroyed and the same as death. honestly i think the whole thing about the geth giving themselves over was stupid ... it is in no way self preservation... but whatever


just add that to another reason that story arc annoyed me... up there with ME3 legion betraying ME2 legion


in the end though there is no right or wrong choice... well there is a right choice ( hint it involves siding with the qurians =) ) but not morally right choice.

everyones morals are different and one is no more right than the other in the end.

[ghost9191]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

remydat wrote...

Scepsis wrote...

Surprised you care, like, at all. 

Tali is my love interest bro.  I always choose peace.  Only times I didn't was just to see the other ends and watching Tali and Legion die was tough.

I'm a Destroyer, so peace is irrelevent.
Kind of a hardcore Talimancer myself.
I just cannot support the geth.

The first is metagaming, the second should not factor into one's decision, and the third requires substantiation.

Same applies to the endings. Speaking as a Destroyer myself, I believe that those who choose Destroy so Shepard has a shot at survival are doing it for the wrong reasons.

I pick destroy because for some baffling reason it's the only choice that gets rid of the Reapers.

well there is refuse   maybe anyways. depends on how they went about it


and well i always picked destroy... and do see shep as not surviving. sad but i don't see it as that likely... that and well i didn't get the breathe scene first time. so thought that he did for sure

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 avril 2013 - 12:09 .

[Hazegurl]

silverexile17s wrote...

Perhaps, but at the very least, the Council wouldn't be able to just shoot down the geth and say "they never tried to make peace"  anymore. They wouldn't be able to say the geth were just killers.

Part of me wonders if the Reapers knew the quarians were going to attack, and were trying ot coroce the geth beforehand into joining them with threats that if they don't join, the quarians will attack. Maybe debates on if the Reapers were being truthful was part of the reason the geth were in turmoil?

Actually, I think Legion's contact with Shepard was what got them thinking. If anything, Legion's positive experance is what makes the geth re-ignite the debate on if it's worth it.

And still, there are examples that do show lack of foresight, in both the long-term (Udina's coup) and the short-term (Dalatrass trying to sabotage the cure).

So your saying Legion gives up? On what though? Saving the geth, or talking to Shepard?

Yeah the council would have to shut their pie holes about the Geth at least on that topic. They'll then just have to stick to whining about how the Geth are now trying to be acknowledged by the council.  You know the council, they always had to complain about something, which is why I loved cutting them off in ME1.

That is something to think about. It could also be why the Reapers left the Geth alone, the Quarians or the Geth would just do their job for them. Regardless of what happens it would be a win-win all around for them. If you're right and the Reapers were already in contact with the Geth then they could make them doubt Quarian peace, it's not like they would be lying to the Geth. If they choose to leave the Geth alone to see what the Quarians would do, then they don't have to waste time sending forces to Rannoch to fight the Geth, let the Quarians do that work for them. The weakened Geth would be putty in their crabby hands or if the Geth refuse help, then let the Quarians finish the job. Taking Rannoch would be a stroll in the park afterwards no matter what.

I don't think Leigon gives up as he still talks to Shepard later on if Shepard goes to him to talk. But he already offered to help stop the Geth. Shepard says the Geth must be stopped and he says "we know" they are both already in agreement about that. It doesn't mean that he thinks they never should have taken the Reaper's offer in the first place. To not take the offer would mean death to all the Geth and I doubt Leigon was for that. Even at the end of the Rannoch mission he wishes to upload the code to save the Geth. I just think he gave up arguing with Shepard.

On a side note: I have no idea why Leigon would tell a Shepard who just finished telling him that he and the Geth are nothing but machines and/or agreed to have him taken apart by Xen, and side with the Quarians in destorying the Geth, about the code and his plans to upload it to the rest of the Geth at the end of the Rannoch mission.

It is times like this where I think the devs put far too much power in Shepard's hands. Because I see no logical reason why Leigon would trust Shepard after that. He should have lied and said he was checking up on the Geth or something then finished the upload and died. Shepard and Tali would just have to stand there shocked as the Quarians get wiped out. The game shouldn't reward you by being a d**k all the time. And I say this an a renegade player.

Modifié par Hazegurl, 03 avril 2013 - 12:28 .

[remydat]

ghost9191 wrote...

geth submitting to reapers is not survival. body surviving and mind being destroyed and the same as death. honestly i think the whole thing about the geth giving themselves over was stupid ... it is in no way self preservation... but whatever


just add that to another reason that story arc annoyed me... up there with ME3 legion betraying ME2 legion


in the end though there is no right or wrong choice... well there is a right choice ( hint it involves siding with the qurians =) ) but not morally right choice.

everyones morals are different and one is no more right than the other in the end.

Except it is.  If the Geth had refused the Reapers they would be dead.  By choosing the Reapers they live long enough for for Shep to decide whether to save them or not.

I don't care what indignity I have to suffer.  I wil always choose the option that allows me to live another day because there is always hope in living for tomorrow.  Death is final.  I won't give my enemies the satisfication of fading quietly into the oblivion they always wished for me.

[remydat]

Scepsis wrote...

More than that even, love is a powerful thing. Who's to say it wouldn't sway Shepard's opinion?

Oh I agree which is why I said before that with all my tough talk if this situation happened in real life and I was in love with Tali that I may in a moment of weakness betray my ideals to save her peeps.  But if I do then I do so knowing full well I made the decisions for entirely selfish reasons which hey humans are selfish.  The issue is trying to justify it morally rather than just admit you were being selfish and move on.

[Hazegurl]

Scepsis wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...
Pretty much this. All three options are the Reaper King's logic. Refusal is the only choice that is not making a deal with Reapers.  

Really? Destroying the Reapers is what they wanted?
I don't even...

No, I don't think they wanted to die. Afterall, the destory option is the only one that holds your friends and yourself hostage.

Pick this and EDI and the Geth dies, oh yeah and if you don't give two craps about them I'll throw in how you'll die too. Oh yeah and you'll change nothing in the end cause organics will still create synthetics who will kill them. So you still fail anyway. It seems like he was throwing every reason out there why you shouldn't pick it. I wonder if starbart couldn't get rid of the option when he was tampering with it and knew Shepard would ask about it if he only presented control and Synthesis.

Anyway, Destory does follow their logic that organics and synthetics can't get along and one would always have to go.

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

No, I don't think they wanted to die. Afterall, the destory option is the only one that holds your friends and yourself hostage.

Pick this and EDI and the Geth dies, oh yeah and if you don't give two craps about them I'll throw in how you'll die too. Oh yeah and you'll change nothing in the end cause organics will still create synthetics who will kill them. So you still fail anyway. It seems like he was throwing every reason out there why you shouldn't pick it. I wonder if starbart couldn't get rid of the option when he was tampering with it and knew Shepard would ask about it if he only presented control and Synthesis.

Anyway, Destory does follow their logic that organics and synthetics can't get along and one would always have to go.

There is one problem though.  Shep doesn't know how this f**king thing works.  If Star Brat wanted to deceive him he would simply have said Synthesis was actually destroy.  It's not like Red is the universal color for destroy and Shep would know he is lying, lol.

Star Brat merely presented the options and gave his opinion on them.  In the end he let Shep decide.  I don't think there was any real attempt to deceive as he would have to be a sh*tty liar to try and lie by telling Shep exactly what each option does.

[Da Don Giovanni]

remydat wrote...

Star Brat merely presented the options and gave his opinion on them.  In the end he let Shep decide.  I don't think there was any real attempt to deceive as he would have to be a sh*tty liar to try and lie by telling Shep exactly what each option does.

I believe this. Control is the only way for me. I become the New Harbinger and command the Reaper Army to vanquish my enemies.

Win/Win

[Broganisity]

TL;DR: I would reluctantly save the Geth.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

History teaches us that second chances, and mercy, are risky.

Of course, History also teaches us only half of the story.

The Geth are shown as being evil beings in the first game, and in the second and third this image is peeled back as we see the truth behind the Geth-Quarian conflict. Fear is a powerful motivator, and the Quarians (for reasons I cannot understand) became afraid of the Geth's growing conciousness and attacked.

Let's ignore the Synthetic-Organic debate entirely (shocking I know): Replace the words 'Quarians' and 'Geth' with any combination of organic people or words that you wish: The Blues attempted to destroy the Reds, or maybe the Gummi bears attempted to destroy the Peeps.

Of course the Reds retaliated and forces the Blues away, as did the Peeps. but they did not destroy the Reds or the Gummi Bears.

If you want more 'real' examples: the masters became fearful of their slaves and attempted to destroy them. The The slaves reacted in self-defense and forced their former masters away. The Quarians being the aggressors.

Thus on the subject of morality? The Geth. Siding with an aggressor just because of the physical composition of one species is just as racist as judging by color, sex, or species.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In matters tactical? Both sides have their assets. The geth are tireless ally with superior firepower without the need for 'trivial matter' such as food, water, sleep, comfort et cetera. The Quarians have more ships for carrying organic allies and serve a superior support role. The Quarians DID install firepower on their liveships to hae the strength of a dreadnaught of memory serves right, but they lack the number and caliber of the Geth ships...ut they could stuff a LOT of Krogans on a liveship and rush enemy forces, so in matters operational I am undecided.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In terms of my personal favorites? The Quarians have a rich culture and the Geth a rich history, but we only really get the full picture of one race in its whole: The Quarians. We have stereotypes such as the 'suit rats' or 'Space Gypsies' but we also have A-Grade characters such as Kal'Reegar (He's like Kirahee but a Quarian, how can you hate that?), Admiral Raan, Zal'Korris vas Qwib-Qwib, and Tali'Zorah (while I don't care for her she is written rather well.) that give us a better insight into the Quarian psyche and the Quarian world, and a string of lesser characters like Veetor or Praza to give their people more life. Its safe to say that the Quarians themselves no longer remember what truly happened to their people or what they did to their children, the Geth, and I can't help but feel that if they truly knew and believed of their full history they would have made a cease fire with the geth.

What do we know of the Geth, besides their history? Little, and all we really have we've recieved from Legion: a 'single' voice for a people that surely count up to the trillions.

So in regards to culture I have to give points to the Quarians, despite my love of the Geth's past.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

At this point we have an 'even score' between the Geth and Quarians, so how do we break this tie?

Legion or Tali! Who's better! Nah just kidding, that's just silly: deciding the fate of one race based on one example? That would be like blowing up Georgia (not our Georgia, their Georgia) because of Joseph Stalin!

In conclusion and despite my love of the Quarian culture and its people (Not like that. I dig humans.) I would have to side with my moral beliefs and choose the Geth, with eternal shame and guilt towards all the innocent lives caught up in the unnecessary conflict between the two.

...I also would pick destroy, so technically I"m killing both races, but I would rather destroy the Reapers than enslave them, or change all peoples, for better or worse, without their consent. Sacrificing diversity for peace is not the option.

Modifié par Broganisity, 03 avril 2013 - 02:45 .

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...
@ghost: that's great for you honestly. I'm not gonna be angry at someone who dares to want to live and turns to someone they shouldn't have out of desperation. I'm angry at the people who put them in that situation in the first place.

I'm equally angry at both sides for continually making stupid decisions - both of them - that have put us in this predicament.

There's also a difference between choosing slavery over death, and choosing a slavery that will wipe out every other intelligent being in the universe over death. 

[ToaOrka]

In the long run, the Geth *did* commit more atrocities
than the Quarians. The Quarians tried to wipe out a race
of machines that *they* created, at which point their full-
fledged sentience was questionable. The Geth mercilessly
nearly wiped out the Quarians to the point that they had
to leave their homeworld, murdered any organics that
attempted to establish contact with them save for a select
few, and chose to ally themselves with the Reapers.

So, in the grand-scheme of things, the Geth had declared
themselves enemies of organics long before the war started,
and the Quarians *did* create the Geth and had every right to
try taking back their homeworld.

Sorry Legion, but your people chose their side.

I'd save the Quarians.

[The Heretic of Time]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I'm equally angry at both sides for continually making stupid decisions - both of them - that have put us in this predicament.

The thing is, that with the quarians, you can only blame it on the leaders, while with the geth, those stupid decisions were made in a consensus.

So while the quarians might have stupid leaders, the geth are entirely stupid as a species.

So in the end, for the quarians' stupid decisions, you can only blame their leaders. For the geth's stupid decisions, you can blame the entire species.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 03 avril 2013 - 03:03 .

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
@ghost: that's great for you honestly. I'm not gonna be angry at someone who dares to want to live and turns to someone they shouldn't have out of desperation. I'm angry at the people who put them in that situation in the first place.

I'm equally angry at both sides for continually making stupid decisions - both of them - that have put us in this predicament.

There's also a difference between choosing slavery over death, and choosing a slavery that will wipe out every other intelligent being in the universe over death. 

Why bother saving other people lives when they've done nothing for me?

Selfish sure but very realistic.

Not to mention yet again. .

Reapers do not kill all intelligent life. They only kill those who reached a certain point.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 avril 2013 - 03:43 .

[tevix]

@Scepsis

Man after reading some of your posts...

When real life skynet turns all our nukes on us I'll be sure to remember to thank folks like you just before I'm vaporized.

<.<