4712 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

They can't ask Shepard because the Commander is in Alliance lock-up for being Cerberus-asscoiated, and for blowing the Alpha Relay to hell with 300,000 lives. So not only can they not get to Shepard, but they have zero reason to trust the Commander, as Shepard is now-branded a lunitic.

Pretty sure the game takes place over months not days.  They mention they attacked 17 days ago.  Pretty sure all those previous missions took longer than 17 days.  Tali could have contacted me before the attack.

But again, at that point, the quarians thought they had a plan, and that it was all under control. They brought in Shepard after the geth got Reaper upgrades because Shepard has more experance with Reapers then they do. And besides, they still wouldn't have asked for Shepard before the invasion, because none of them believe the geth are open to negotiate anyway.

[S.A.K]

Ok lets simplify this a bit. Killing Quarians means you got blood on your hands. Killing Geth, it's more like brake oil right? And I don't want blood on my hands...

[S.A.K]

ToaOrka wrote...

In the long run, the Geth *did* commit more atrocities
than the Quarians. The Quarians tried to wipe out a race
of machines that *they* created, at which point their full-
fledged sentience was questionable. The Geth mercilessly
nearly wiped out the Quarians to the point that they had
to leave their homeworld, murdered any organics that
attempted to establish contact with them save for a select
few, and chose to ally themselves with the Reapers.

So, in the grand-scheme of things, the Geth had declared
themselves enemies of organics long before the war started,
and the Quarians *did* create the Geth and had every right to
try taking back their homeworld.

Sorry Legion, but your people chose their side.

I'd save the Quarians.

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

I'm equally angry at both sides for continually making stupid decisions - both of them - that have put us in this predicament.

The
thing is, that with the quarians, you can only blame it on the leaders,
while with the geth, those stupid decisions were made in a consensus.

So while the quarians might have stupid leaders, the geth are entirely stupid as a species.

So
in the end, for the quarians' stupid decisions, you can only blame
their leaders. For the geth's stupid decisions, you can blame the entire
species.

Both these speak the truth.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

Why bother saving other people lives when they've done nothing for me?

Selfish sure but very realistic.

Sure it's realistic. It's understandable. It also makes them an enemy. I can understand the motivation for something without approving of it.

Not to mention yet again. .

Reapers do not kill all intelligent life. They only kill those who reached a certain point.

This is just a semantic difference, as my intent with saying "intelligent life" was precisely to exclude baser forms of organics. If you want to create a microcosmic example - say killing all adults and leaving the children - then my point still applies. It doesn't boil down to "wouldn't you choose slavery over death?" Sure, but that isn't the issue I have with allying with the Reapers.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 04:09 .

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

There is one problem though.  Shep doesn't know how this f**king thing works.  If Star Brat wanted to deceive him he would simply have said Synthesis was actually destroy.  It's not like Red is the universal color for destroy and Shep would know he is lying, lol.

Star Brat merely presented the options and gave his opinion on them.  In the end he let Shep decide.  I don't think there was any real attempt to deceive as he would have to be a sh*tty liar to try and lie by telling Shep exactly what each option does.

I don't think star brat is trying to deceive but I can't help but view it as a sort of hostage situation. Personally, I think that if he wanted to live badly enough though he shouldn't have added destory to begin with, if he did add it. But in the end I am a MEHEM, kill the reapers, spare EDI and the Geth, and then go retire in Anderson's apt with Kaidan.

CronoDragoon wrote...
There's also a difference between choosing slavery over death, and choosing a slavery that will wipe out every other intelligent being in the universe over death. 

Why should someone choose death to save a bunch of people who hate them?

Modifié par Hazegurl, 03 avril 2013 - 04:16 .

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
There is one problem though.  Shep doesn't know how this f**king thing works.  If Star Brat wanted to deceive him he would simply have said Synthesis was actually destroy.  It's not like Red is the universal color for destroy and Shep would know he is lying, lol.

Yeah, but he can be manipulative without deceiving Shepard. I think it's evident that he's trying to manipulate Shepard into picking Synthesis by playing up Destroy's weaknesses and lauding Synthesis's strengths.

But you are right that if you think he is "deceiving" Shepard then you either close your eyes and throw a dart or you refuse. 

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Why bother saving other people lives when they've done nothing for me?

Selfish sure but very realistic.

Sure it's realistic. It's understandable. It also makes them an enemy. I can understand the motivation for something without approving of it.

Not to mention yet again. .

Reapers do not kill all intelligent life. They only kill those who reached a certain point.

This is just a semantic difference, as my intent with saying "intelligent life" was precisely to exclude baser forms of organics. If you want to create a microcosmic example - say killing all adults and leaving the children - then my point still applies. It doesn't boil down to "wouldn't you choose slavery over death?" Sure, but that isn't the issue I have with allying with the Reapers.

Fair enough.

To me it makes them an enemy as long as they have to keep that motivation.

since the Quarian's death kills that motivation? I'm pretty much on their side. They would've had no reason to side with the Reapers had the Quarians not been warmongers.

Uh...no it's not. You're flat out told they're ignoring the Yaloi and Yahg. Both which are intelligent species non space faring species (well the Yaloi are trying to pretend such). So yeah it's not semantics. They don't kill everyone they don't kill all intelligent life. They simply kill all intelligent spacefaring life that discovered their traps. Getting real tired of people trying to say the Reapers do. Is what they actually do terrible? Very. But they do not kill all intelligent organic life. Unless you wanna argue that humanity wasn't intelligent life before space travel in which case I'll just have to disagree.

Probably a bad idea to use such a broad stroke as intelligent life anyway.

Regardless as you say that's not your issue.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 avril 2013 - 04:32 .

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

To me it makes them an enemy as long as they have to keep that motivation.\\

since the Quarian's death kills that motivation? I'm pretty much on their side.

What exactly is being killed here? The geth *still* don't care about organics even after the quarians' death, and if they are willing to escape extermination by allowing enslavement by the Reapers then what do you think will happen the moment they decide that the Reapers are going to win this cycle?

Uh...no it's not. You're flat out told they're ignore the Yaloi and Yahg. Both with are intelligent species. So yeah it's not semantics. They don't kill everyone.

I didn't say they killed everyone. This is obvious. I was using intelligent as a substitute for "advanced". If you disagree with that then it's merely semantics. As to your expanded paragraph, it's unclear what designation the Reapers use for "fit to harvest." I'd argue that humanity is going to invent A.I. before legitimate, reasonable space travel. They'd probably still harvest us, right?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 04:32 .

[Ryzaki]

Ah nvm too tired of this arguement.

You wanna think the geth don't feel any emotion for organics whatsoever that's your pergoative.

Gotta stop coming into this thread. Wears me out.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 avril 2013 - 04:50 .

[CronoDragoon]

Edit: What is the synthetic equivalent of emotions, and outside the quarians where have the geth shown it?

Actually how is it unclear? Reapers pretty much spell it out. Every 50k years after they're stuff is being reguarly used...those are the races they harvest. (No matter how late in the game they got access to it). It's why in a panic the Raloi are destroying their stations and whatnot.

As for humanity making AIs and being harvested as a result there's no way of really knowing. If Earth isn't part of the galatic society they may have simply ignored it. Or the AIs themselves might've lead to them discovering the mass relays. It's not like humanity would simply make AIs and then stop developing. Too many variables as Mordin would say.

So the deciding factor is whether or not a race uses relays and the Citadel? Is there a codex for this or something - just curious.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 05:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Re my edit: Not arguing about it anymore.

You wanna ignore ME2 and the dossier? Go ahead.

Geth evil robots that'll turn on Shepard the second the Reapers make another offer (despite...not) go ahead.

In my game they were perfectly fine allies until Shep had to blow them up thanks to starbrat logic.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 avril 2013 - 05:14 .

[Argolas]

Does anyone else consider the possibility that the Geth would not even want Reaper upgrades if the alternative were not extinction? When Legion spoke as the Geth consensus in ME2, it was pretty clear what they want: A giant server for all of them. Their own future which is quite the opposite of being individuals, and never a future the "Old Machines" give them, that's only what Heretics want. In ME3, Legion is no longer part of the Geth consensus so if his people disapprove he would not even know. Of course they approve afterwards, but on the other hand, the Geth's opinions can be changed by slight mathematical changes, and it is likely that the Reaper code would contain these changes.

I side with the Quarians even with peace available because I can't let Legion upload these codes. My preferred option would be to stop Legion AND talk the Quarians down. Then you win the war against the Reapers, and AFTER they are gone, the Geth can still decide whether or not they want the code. As long as the Reapers are still around, it is far too dangerous. Yes, I know it turns out fairly well, and yes, the Geth don't survive the ending of my choice, but Shepard can't know either in that situation.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

You wanna ignore ME2 and the dossier? Go ahead.

Can you be more specific? Much of my opinion that the geth don't care about organics is formed from ME2; things like not bothering to warn organics that a portion of their consensus just teamed up with an Old Machine, or disapproving of the basics of organic individuality, or their race goal to isolate themselves in a gigantic consensus space station.

Geth evil robots that'll turn on Shepard the second the Reapers make another offer (despite...not) go ahead.

I never said they were evil. But we do see that they value their own survival above organics; this is something you freely agree to with a "why should they care?" thrown in for good measure.

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You wanna ignore ME2 and the dossier? Go ahead.

Can you be more specific? Much of my opinion that the geth don't care about organics is formed from ME2; things like not bothering to warn organics that a portion of their consensus just teamed up with an Old Machine, or disapproving of the basics of organic individuality, or their race goal to isolate themselves in a gigantic consensus space station.

Geth evil robots that'll turn on Shepard the second the Reapers make another offer (despite...not) go ahead.

I never said they were evil. But we do see that they value their own survival above organics; this is something you freely agree to with a "why should they care?" thrown in for good measure.

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

As for not warning...yeah and not be believed or worse be attacked? 

Also...that lvl of apathy isn't something unique to the geth. People do it every day. We are fully aware people are dying/starving/poor and that there's organizations to donate to...and plenty of us simply don't. Some people can listen to abuse right next door and never lift a finger. Some would but "it's not my business". The Geth probably felt more of a kinship (or as close as they could to a kinship) with the heretics than organics (until the heretics started their "let's brainwash them!" idea).

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before deciding they rather not again. EDI would rather be deleted than become a Reaper slave...who's to say the newly evolved Geth don't feel the same?

That and one would assume they'd take precautions against being so easily deleted with their newfound intelligence. (not enough for magical destroy wave but against most things).

Or are we gonna ignore the changed perspective and assume they'd do the same thing each time? Not to mention the Reapers probably would have trouble deleting all of them. I doubt the other AI the Reapers faced had their own code upgrades and weren't under their control (The one AI the Reapers do face on equal terms is EDI and...well her greybox isn't exactly hidden and she's one AI).

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story about the criminals in the Reaper camp) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone. Doesn't work mind but hey. They tried.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 avril 2013 - 05:47 .

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Ok lets simplify this a bit. Killing Quarians means you got blood on your hands. Killing Geth, it's more like brake oil right? And I don't want blood on my hands...

The point i've been trying to make is that your decision gets you blood on your hands because it forces the hands of every synthetic that vill ever become selfaware. They will know that there cant be a peace with organics, you force there hands an in that way get blood on your hands.

What started the war was organics trying to "destroy" synthetics, the only reason was that they existed. By showing future syntetics that organics see no value in them and will turn on them every chance you get, you ensure a perpetual war.
There will always be blood on the hands of those who choose to marginalize others and choose their pride before peace.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 avril 2013 - 05:54 .

[shodiswe]

Ryzaki wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You wanna ignore ME2 and the dossier? Go ahead.

Can you be more specific? Much of my opinion that the geth don't care about organics is formed from ME2; things like not bothering to warn organics that a portion of their consensus just teamed up with an Old Machine, or disapproving of the basics of organic individuality, or their race goal to isolate themselves in a gigantic consensus space station.

Geth evil robots that'll turn on Shepard the second the Reapers make another offer (despite...not) go ahead.

I never said they were evil. But we do see that they value their own survival above organics; this is something you freely agree to with a "why should they care?" thrown in for good measure.

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

As for not warning...yeah and not be believed or worse be attacked? 

Also...that lvl of apathy isn't something unique to the geth. People do it every day. We are fully aware people are dying/starving/poor and that there's organizations to donate to...and plenty of us simply don't. Some people can listen to abuse right next door and never lift a finger. Some would but "it's not my business". The Geth probably felt more of a kinship (or as close as they could to a kinship) with the heretics than organics (until the heretics started their "let's brainwash them!" idea).

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before deciding they rather not again. EDI would rather be deleted than become a Reaper slave...who's to say the newly evolved Geth don't feel the same?

That and one would assume they'd take precautions against being so easily deleted with their newfound intelligence. (not enough for magical destroy wave but against most things).

Or are we gonna ignore the changed perspective and assume they'd do the same thing each time? Not to mention the Reapers probably would have trouble deleting all of them. I doubt the other AI the Reapers faced had their own code upgrades and weren't under their control (The one AI the Reapers do face on equal terms is EDI and...well her greybox isn't exactly hidden and she's one AI).

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story about the criminals in the Reaper camp) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone. Doesn't work mind but hey. They tried.

Not to mention all those people stealing from charity organizations or using them as scam.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 05:50 .

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

You wanted proof of emotions no?

You have Legion playing a dating sim, trolling (and accepting the punishment for it) among other things (like buying a game about killing Geth because the proceeds go to helping Quarians).

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Uh...it is? The choice was extinction or death, they were crippled and chose what they saw to be a good option (which in hindsight wasn't a good option but barely beat death).

And yeah it was stupid. They were given a choice between stupid and stupid. Not much of an option. Do I want to shoot myself in the head or jump off a cliff? (Seems Shep's the only one who can pull off pick a third option for some reason).

They didn't backstab anyone in my view. No one had allied with them when they were with the Reapers. Shepard maybe but that really depends on the Shep you're playing and nothing about that alliance was set in stone. As for loyalty yeah that is more complicated.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

And my Shep feels the Quarians threw organics under the bus when they caused the Geth to turn to the Reapers by needlessly attacking them and wasted time and resources on stupidity because they couldn't be bothered having a civilized discussion and got gung ho over Xen's toy (and even more so when they almost got him killed. GG almost killing one of your allies because you had a hardon to destroy the dreadnaught when the blasted thing was already disabled and couldn't wait the several moments it would've taken for Shep to get off.) and lessened the few enough resources as it was they had to stop Reapers. (On the plus side Reaper enhanced geth were a nice boon).

Which is fair enough. I'm not saying your choice is wrong. I just had a different one. Better someone who sided with the enemy to begin and honest about their reasons for it than someone who blatantly ignored my Shep telling them "do not start a war. You're gonna have another one on your hands." and then when it predictably blows up in their face they act like they were in the right.

But I pretty much was meh on the Quarians during ME2. ME3 just made it worse. Koris is the only one I felt any sympathy for when I sided with the Geth at Rannoch.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 avril 2013 - 06:13 .

[shodiswe]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

The geth didnt accept the reapers aid and were prepared to fight them unil their neighbour turned on them and started a war of annihiltion. And the heretics dont count any more than cerberus.
If the heretics count then humanity betrayed the galaxy and joined the reapers long ago.
And for some reason there are still geth hoping there will be an end to the reapers after the quarians turned on them.

[Da Don Giovanni]

shodiswe wrote...

I like your bio. I play juggy and the turret fully upgraded is a player almost on its on. Long range, flamethrower, and shield regen for anyone nearby.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

Ok lets simplify this a bit. Killing Quarians means you got blood on your hands. Killing Geth, it's more like brake oil right? And I don't want blood on my hands...

The point i've been trying to make is that your decision gets you blood on your hands because it forces the hands of every synthetic that vill ever become selfaware. They will know that there cant be a peace with organics, you force there hands an in that way get blood on your hands.

What started the war was organics trying to "destroy" synthetics, the only reason was that they existed. By showing future syntetics that organics see no value in them and will turn on them every chance you get, you ensure a perpetual war.
There will always be blood on the hands of those who choose to marginalize others and choose their pride before peace.

I was joking buddy. Just referring to the fact that Geth don't have blood. Get it?

Anyway my reasons for siding with Quarians isn't that simple. I just see more reasons to save Quarians than save Geth if option to save both. Fair enough?

P.s : I don't have any playthroughs that I had to pick a side.

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...

Scepsis wrote...
Goddamn, that scene was heartbreaking.
Such a good time for a quick reload of my last save after I tried that option.

Found the scene melodramatic honestly especially with Shep's run to catch her. Meh. The scene before it with the exploding Quarian ships that was better and felt less ridculous.

Shooting Mordin meanwhile. That was heartbreaking (and shooting Legion I just can't).

Why not? It's fun and It just helps Legion join his people in were ever they they go after death. Plus 3 is a lucky number...
:innocent:

[ghost9191]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

eh ppl shouldn't make that argument anyways lol. just mean legion didn't exactly stand by its convictions


@Ryzaki

and the dossier doesn't prove they have emotions ( not saying they do or don't ) they do it for the same reason the geth maintain rannoch

^^ a conversation with legion

it does seem like they do but they aren't suppose to . they are just VIs unless grouped . though it is a different story after the upgrade. though i think they are just in the same boat as edi

Modifié par ghost9191, 03 avril 2013 - 09:11 .

[shodiswe]

ghost9191 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

eh ppl shouldn't make that argument anyways lol. just mean legion didn't exactly stand by its convictions

Everything has to be put in proper proportions. Pirate coppying Reaper drivers for improved platform performance when you're about to get wiped out doesn't count as not following your convictions. To follow that concivtion of developing evertyhing on their own would have resulted in their deaths. It's just a necessity necessitated by the Quarian attack. Humanity would have done the same if they faced anihilation. It's not something that changes their personality anyway other than increasing platform performance.
VI Legion doesn't become a singular person, because it lacks the Real Legion's personality development.

Modifié par shodiswe, 03 avril 2013 - 09:15 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

ghost9191 wrote...

Renegon, or Paragade?