4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Yeah, but he can be manipulative without deceiving Shepard. I think it's evident that he's trying to manipulate Shepard into picking Synthesis by playing up Destroy's weaknesses and lauding Synthesis's strengths.

But you are right that if you think he is "deceiving" Shepard then you either close your eyes and throw a dart or you refuse. 

But that is not really manipulation if it is his actual honest opinion.  I mean does he not get the right to state his opinion?

[remydat]

Khelish,

You are confusing me joking around and me putting myself in Shep's shoes. Clearly in the Quarian death scene, Shep has no idea what Tali is going to do. He has miscalculated how she would react. So I made a joke to explain that Shep probably expected her to get in his face or attack him because if he honestly knew suicide was an option he would not be looking up in the sky watching the fireworks when she proceeds to back away from him and jump off the cliff. When it is clear the Geth are destroying the fleet he would have grabbed her tight and ensured that her sadness, anger, sorrow or whatever she is feeling prevents her from doing something like what she did.

So I was just trying to explain how Shep in that scene obviously miscalculated. Obviously I as a game player know Tali is too shy and reserved to get angry. That is precisely why we are in the situation we are in. If Tali had more of an edge to her, she would have stood up and told the Quarians that she would not support the war, end of story. She didn't because she is filled with self-doubt and a lack of confidence. The scene at Thane's memorial where she explains how she admired him because he had perfect memory and thus remembered all his mistakes but yet was still confident is a microcosm of what makes me love Tali as a character but also an illustration of her greatest weakness. She lacks the confidence and resolve to stand up for herself. She didn't stand up for her beliefs to the other Admirals, she didn't stand up to Gherel in that scene and she didn't stand up to Shep when he uploaded the Reaper Code.

So as a game player I fully understand who Tali is and I love her for it which is why I always choose peace. Pretending I am Shep with the rules set up in the OP, he clearly didn't understand her well enough in that scene otherwise he would have grabbed and held on to her for dear life and prevent her from taking her own life.

P.S. - I included this response here because you PM'ed me and then blocked me, lol. I mean seriously, if you don't want to talk then don't PM someone and try to stop them from responding back. That is poor form dude but I ain't mad at cha.

[Hazegurl]

The only thing star brat has a right to do is die or just not exist. His logic is dumb and he should probably use his processing power into researching his opinions before he opens his trap.

[CronoDragoon]

Ryzaki wrote...

You wanted proof of emotions no?

You have Legion playing a dating sim, trolling (and accepting the punishment for it) among other things (like buying a game about killing Geth because the proceeds go to helping Quarians).

I mean, he also got a medal for killing an impressive number of quarians in that game. I think the dossier is meant to be humorous. The dossier also has a file supporting my view, where EDI is explaining that she restricts herself in order to help the crew of the Normandy, a notion which Legion doesn't understand and sees as illogical. It's hard for me to buy that Legion is playing games because of his emotions considering everything else he says in ME2.

But this is just a difference of interpretation, no one is wrong. I'll also add that I'm not condemning the geth because they don't have emotions; only that I don't believe they are about organics in the sense of wanting to help them. Their indifference to the heretics' action and their confusion about EDI's actions are indicative of this, I believe, among the other things I mentioned.

Uh...it is? The choice was extinction or death, they were crippled and chose what they saw to be a good option (which in hindsight wasn't a good option but barely beat death).

And yeah it was stupid. They were given a choice between stupid and stupid. Not much of an option. Do I want to shoot myself in the head or jump off a cliff? (Seems Shep's the only one who can pull off pick a third option for some reason).

Ultimately this was a choice they were faced with when they decided to refuse any negotiations, destroy ships that attempted any contact with them, and continue to alienate themselves from the galaxy. Yes, the galaxy and the quarians are also to blame for this. But it's kinda ridiculous that they claim to be Rannoch caretakers while also isolating themselves from everyone with military force.

They didn't backstab anyone in my view. No one had allied with them when they were with the Reapers. Shepard maybe but that really depends on the Shep you're playing and nothing about that alliance was set in stone. As for loyalty yeah that is more complicated.

I was thinking more of what Legion had told Shepard, yeah. Going from saying you have rejected the Old Machines and that you will fight them to serving them feels like a betrayal to my Shepard.

Which is fair enough. I'm not saying your choice is wrong. I just had a different one. Better someone who sided with the enemy to begin and honest about their reasons for it than someone who blatantly ignored my Shep telling them "do not start a war. You're gonna have another one on your hands." and then when it predictably blows up in their face they act like they were in the right.

Okay. I don't agree with that. It's better to have a fleet of ships that did something stupid because some of their leaders were stupid than a race that decided on the whole to betray you.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 04:24 .

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

The only thing star brat has a right to do is die or just not exist. His logic is dumb and he should probably use his processing power into researching his opinions before he opens his trap.

Star brat is merely doing the same thing we are.  We have less information than him really but that doesn't prevent us from forming opinions.  In the end, we are free to arrive at our own conclusions which is more than can be said for all the previous cycles.

I find it hard to believe that Star Brat couldn't just have choked Shep out if he wanted to.  Don't let that cute face fool you.  Star Brat has a mean fist game.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
But that is not really manipulation if it is his actual honest opinion.  I mean does he not get the right to state his opinion?

It's manipulation if you fail to account for the pros and the cons. Like, if I'm recommending a game to you, and I say X game has a better story than Y game but don't tell you the gameplay is terrible, then in my opinion I'm being pretty manipulative. I'm not really painting an accurate picture of the choice because of my personal preference.

[remydat]

Crono,

How are we defining betrayal? Tali and none of the Quarians ever asked Shep's opinion regarding this war and Legion ahd the Geth never asked Shep's opinion regarding allying with the Reapers.

There is no immediate threat to the Quarians. The Reapers had no seeming interest in them and they could have waited a few days to see if Shep could negotiate peace. EDI and Tali discuss the lack of interest the Reapers have in the Quarians to the point Tali actually interprets the fact the Reapers don't want to harvest them as the Quarians being a worthless race.

So there is absolutely no evidence that the Quarians had to rush to war. Yes the Reapers were their but they were busy feeding on larger populations. The Geth meanwhile had an immediate threat. They had to decide in that moment to ally with the Reaper who is right there and ready to help or basically accept extinction because the Quarians are killing them right now. They are not going to kill them tomorrow or next week or in 200 years. They are killing them right now.

So I don't get this concept of betrayal. If I tell you I am not going to do something when I am safe and sound as Legion said to Shep, it is not a betrayal when I change my mind because my species is faced with immediate extinction. If there is any betrayal here it is with the people how had no immediate threat causing them to wage an unnecessary war. It is in Tali VAS NORMANDY not informing her captain and in some game lover of what the Quarians were planning. Shep took her in to his ship and crew and she still bears the name to prove it.

[shodiswe]

Ryzaki wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

You wanted proof of emotions no?

You have Legion playing a dating sim, trolling (and accepting the punishment for it) among other things (like buying a game about killing Geth because the proceeds go to helping Quarians).

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Uh...it is? The choice was extinction or death, they were crippled and chose what they saw to be a good option (which in hindsight wasn't a good option but barely beat death).

And yeah it was stupid. They were given a choice between stupid and stupid. Not much of an option. Do I want to shoot myself in the head or jump off a cliff? (Seems Shep's the only one who can pull off pick a third option for some reason).

They didn't backstab anyone in my view. No one had allied with them when they were with the Reapers. Shepard maybe but that really depends on the Shep you're playing and nothing about that alliance was set in stone. As for loyalty yeah that is more complicated.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

And my Shep feels the Quarians threw organics under the bus when they caused the Geth to turn to the Reapers by needlessly attacking them and wasted time and resources on stupidity because they couldn't be bothered having a civilized discussion and got gung ho over Xen's toy (and even more so when they almost got him killed. GG almost killing one of your allies because you had a hardon to destroy the dreadnaught when the blasted thing was already disabled and couldn't wait the several moments it would've taken for Shep to get off.) and lessened the few enough resources as it was they had to stop Reapers. (On the plus side Reaper enhanced geth were a nice boon).

Which is fair enough. I'm not saying your choice is wrong. I just had a different one. Better someone who sided with the enemy to begin and honest about their reasons for it than someone who blatantly ignored my Shep telling them "do not start a war. You're gonna have another one on your hands." and then when it predictably blows up in their face they act like they were in the right.

But I pretty much was meh on the Quarians during ME2. ME3 just made it worse. Koris is the only one I felt any sympathy for when I sided with the Geth at Rannoch.

The Geth killing game was conected with a charity that supported the victims of Eden prime, the human colonoy that Saren and his geth attacked in ME1. It was not support for Quarians, but rather shows that Legion feelt bad about what the Heretics did to inocent humans. I'm not sure if Legion would feel ready to support Quarian charity at that point.
The Quarian dating game proved him to be terrible at dating Quarian females.. The reasons we don't know, could be several. Asside from that Legion spent a lot of time playing turian MMO's and did some of the raid content and had been awarded several best player awards. And he was also accused of cheating using VI assisted support given impossible multitasking and reaction time adjustments. The problem here was that the GM's didn't know Legion was a Geth, though I  doubt they would have responed any better to that realization.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...
But that is not really manipulation if it is his actual honest opinion.  I mean does he not get the right to state his opinion?

It's manipulation if you fail to account for the pros and the cons. Like, if I'm recommending a game to you, and I say X game has a better story than Y game but don't tell you the gameplay is terrible, then in my opinion I'm being pretty manipulative. I'm not really painting an accurate picture of the choice because of my personal preference.

That is only true if I think the gameplay is terrible.  If I don't actually believe it is terrible then how can I tell you something that I don't believe or am not aware of as I think the gameplay is fine?

You are assuming your opinions on pros and cons are shared by Star Brat.  I think that is doubtful.  Judged from his perspective Destroy kills the Reapers but obviously he feels it may not solve the problem because he didn't just spend millions or billions of years having Reapers harvest organics if he didn't think the threat that synthetics would eventually wipe out humans was real.

Likewise, if he honestly believes that without the Reapers organics will eventually create this synthetic race that kills them because conflict is inevitable then having them joined by becoming a hybrid is the most logical conclusion from his perspective.

So I think you are imposing your opinions on him.  You likely don't think the above is the only alternative and hence you judge him to be trying manipulate Shep.  I think from his perspective, he honestly believes the above and his misguided and naive outlook prevents him from seeing the other side of the debate.  So he is not manipulative so much as he is narrow minded, naive and most likely clueless about organic and synthetic relationships.

Modifié par remydat, 03 avril 2013 - 04:35 .

[shodiswe]

@Chronodragoon

The thing is the Geth accepted the Reaper proposal because Organics(quarians) betrayed them a second time trying to kill them proving the catalysts arguments while the galaxy was busy fighting reapers, but beside that their choice was death or trying to buy some time and find a second solution. Solving the problem one stepp at the time.

My Shepard had been working on briging those Geth into the war agaisnt the Reapers and then the Quarians goes in there and screws me up.
Normaly that woudl make the Quarians my enemy, but at the sametime I had been trying to recruit the Quarians... I had told the Quarians not to go to war with the Geth, they did it anyway.
When people do thigns you tell them not to do, how are you supposed to trust them and feel obligated to help them? The Quarians betrayed me! They created that huge mess! And it's not the first time the Quarians screws up the galaxy!

However my Shepards are hopeless optimists and always tries to make peace between them even if the Quarians are trouble. No matter what, I do expect the Quarians to backstab me "again", it's one of the few consistent tratis of their species, they are good at causing trouble.

I do like Tali however even if she's somewhat twisted by her peoples and her fathers views, especialy back in ME1 and 2.

The Geth arn't perfect either and they do make misstakes, but they were created by the Quarians so it's understandable!

I really hope both of them has learned a few important lessions from this trilogy.

[shodiswe]

I'm also aware that some people told the Quarians to attack and promised Tali her world back! I didn't, because I don't belive a war is what the galaxy need! Especialy with the Reapers o the doorstep or while the Reapers are harvesting half the galaxy to extinction!

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Crono,

How are we defining betrayal? Tali and none of the Quarians ever asked Shep's opinion regarding this war and Legion ahd the Geth never asked Shep's opinion regarding allying with the Reapers.

They didn't need to ask Shepard's opinion since they had already decided that they wouldn't ally with the Reapers.

There is no immediate threat to the Quarians. The Reapers had no seeming interest in them and they could have waited a few days to see if Shep could negotiate peace. EDI and Tali discuss the lack of interest the Reapers have in the Quarians to the point Tali actually interprets the fact the Reapers don't want to harvest them as the Quarians being a worthless race.

So there is absolutely no evidence that the Quarians had to rush to war. Yes the Reapers were their but they were busy feeding on larger populations. The Geth meanwhile had an immediate threat. They had to decide in that moment to ally with the Reaper who is right there and ready to help or basically accept extinction because the Quarians are killing them right now. They are not going to kill them tomorrow or next week or in 200 years. They are killing them right now.

Shepard was on trial on Earth, so he wasn't going to be able to negotiate peace.

As for the quarians not needing Rannoch, they clearly disagree. In ME2 Gherel states that they'll need somewhere to shelter their noncombatants while they fight the Reaper war. You may argue that there are other refuges where they could stow civilians, but then you need to consider that, as you said, the Reapers don't much care about the quarians. Keeping them on worlds with other races that, as you say, are in the process of being targeted by the Reapers isn't really sheltering them at all. On the flipside, if they destroy the geth and take Rannoch, the Reapers won't bother to come to Rannoch and take it over, at least going by your words.

So I don't get this concept of betrayal. If I tell you I am not going to do something when I am safe and sound as Legion said to Shep, it is not a betrayal when I change my mind because my species is faced with immediate extinction. If there is any betrayal here it is with the people how had no immediate threat causing them to wage an unnecessary war. It is in Tali VAS NORMANDY not informing her captain and in some game lover of what the Quarians were planning. Shep took her in to his ship and crew and she still bears the name to prove it.

Actually, that is still betrayal. When you say you're going to do something and then do the opposite, that's betrayal. That they believe something only when its convenient to do so speaks poorly of them.

Do you believe that survivalist reasons trump everything? Do you believe that any action is justified in the name of survival?

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...
That is only true if I think the gameplay is terrible.  If I don't actually believe it is terrible then how can I tell you something that I don't believe or am not aware of as I think the gameplay is fine?

You are assuming your opinions on pros and cons are shared by Star Brat.  I think that is doubtful.  Judged from his perspective Destroy kills the Reapers but obviously he feels it may not solve the problem because he didn't just spend millions or billions of years having Reapers harvest organics if he didn't think the threat that synthetics would eventually wipe out humans was real.

Likewise, if he honestly believes that without the Reapers organics will eventually create this synthetic race that kills them because conflict is inevitable then having them joined by becoming a hybrid is the most logical conclusion from his perspective.

So I think you are imposing your opinions on him.  You likely don't think the above is the only alternative and hence you judge him to be trying manipulate Shep.  I think from his perspective, he honestly believes the above and his misguided and naive outlook prevents him from seeing the other side of the debate.  So he is not manipulative so much as he is narrow minded, naive and most likely clueless about organic and synthetic relationships.

So your only real point of contention here is that the Catalyst doesn't realize how biased he's representing the choices?

[CronoDragoon]

shodiswe wrote...

When people do thigns you tell them not to do, how are you supposed to trust them and feel obligated to help them?

You aren't. I don't trust the quarians either, but this thread isn't about how we feel about the quarians or geth in a vacuum, it's about who to pick if you need to destroy one.

[Argolas]

shodiswe wrote...

I'm also aware that some people told the Quarians to attack and promised Tali her world back! I didn't, because I don't belive a war is what the galaxy need! Especialy with the Reapers o the doorstep or while the Reapers are harvesting half the galaxy to extinction!

I agree that it was a stupid idea to attack the Geth at the time of the Reaper war, but I can't really blame them. They had the resources to arm their ships and they had a good plan that would have brought them a quick victory with very few casualties. It is their home world we are talking about, the only world where they ever have a chance to walk free of their suits... and once their civilians are safe on a planet, they can throw their whole fleet at the Reapers.

Besides, I still think the Geth had it coming. They should have left Rannoch long ago. How can you expect peace while you occupie the only possible home of the very people you forced out of there before?

[shodiswe]

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

When people do thigns you tell them not to do, how are you supposed to trust them and feel obligated to help them?

You aren't. I don't trust the quarians either, but this thread isn't about how we feel about the quarians or geth in a vacuum, it's about who to pick if you need to destroy one.

Those things tend to add up to how I feel when making such a choice. I'm not big on warmongers or warlords, especialy those that betrays me and starts another war instead of helping me save everyone and in doing so robs me of another potential ally. The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

So your only real point of contention here is that the Catalyst doesn't realize how biased he's representing the choices?

Yes manipulation is very different than ignorance.  Star Brat is not traying to be manipulative.  He is ignorant because his world view is narrow minded.  In the end, he lets you decide.

[shodiswe]

Argolas wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm also aware that some people told the Quarians to attack and promised Tali her world back! I didn't, because I don't belive a war is what the galaxy need! Especialy with the Reapers o the doorstep or while the Reapers are harvesting half the galaxy to extinction!

I agree that it was a stupid idea to attack the Geth at the time of the Reaper war, but I can't really blame them. They had the resources to arm their ships and they had a good plan that would have brought them a quick victory with very few casualties. It is their home world we are talking about, the only world where they ever have a chance to walk free of their suits... and once their civilians are safe on a planet, they can throw their whole fleet at the Reapers.

Besides, I still think the Geth had it coming. They should have left Rannoch long ago. How can you expect peace while you occupie the only possible home of the very people you forced out of there before?

For the whole duration of the war they couldn't have walked freely on the old homeworld without their suits, it would have killed most of them. It only truly helps them in the long run if the Reaper war is won.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

Yes manipulation is very different than ignorance.  Star Brat is not traying to be manipulative.  He is ignorant because his world view is narrow minded.  In the end, he lets you decide.

Okay, I must have misunderstood why this point was brought up initially then.

[CronoDragoon]

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

They didn't need to ask Shepard's opinion since they had already decided that they wouldn't ally with the Reapers.

Shepard was on trial on Earth, so he wasn't going to be able to negotiate peace.

As for the quarians not needing Rannoch, they clearly disagree. In ME2 Gherel states that they'll need somewhere to shelter their noncombatants while they fight the Reaper war. You may argue that there are other refuges where they could stow civilians, but then you need to consider that, as you said, the Reapers don't much care about the quarians. Keeping them on worlds with other races that, as you say, are in the process of being targeted by the Reapers isn't really sheltering them at all. On the flipside, if they destroy the geth and take Rannoch, the Reapers won't bother to come to Rannoch and take it over, at least going by your words.

Actually, that is still betrayal. When you say you're going to do something and then do the opposite, that's betrayal. That they believe something only when its convenient to do so speaks poorly of them.

Do you believe that survivalist reasons trump everything? Do you believe that any action is justified in the name of survival?

They made a decision under different circumstances.  They were not faced with extinction.  If I say I will never sleep with another women after my wife dies and then an apocalypse occurs and I have to sleep with another women to save humans from extinction, I did not betray my wife.  My circumstnaces changed and the decision I made previously was not made under these new circumstances.

The game logically takes place over months.  When we meet the Quarians they said they attacked 17 days ago.  It is pretty illogical to pretend like all the missions from the start of the game until he meets the Quarians was done in 17 days.  Various emails and the like you receive make it clear that days and weeks are passing.  So Shepard logically had to be out of prison before the attack.  Further at no point does Tali claim to have tried to call or contact Shepard prior to the War.  Her people are about to make a monumental decision and she doesn't contact her Ship captain, friend and in some cases lover?

In ME2, Koris says they could try and colonise a different world.  So Gherel's opinion is not the only one.  Furthermore, If you are afraid of a reaper attack or of putting civilians in harms way then launching a war that ultimately would result in a planet that can't feed you and that realistically you can't defend against a Reaper attack
and putting those civilians you claim to not want to involve in war in the middle of war by strapping guns to liveships is illogical 

I think a species will choose itself over it's enemies who want to destroy it.  The Quarians want to destroy them.  The Council laws don't want them to exist.  I think it is illogical to expect any species when faced with extinction to choose certain death just so the people that loathed your existence can get what they always wanted.

Modifié par remydat, 03 avril 2013 - 05:38 .

[shodiswe]

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

The fact that they are a military dictatorship and the fact that it's part of their social identity doesn't make it any better.

But I really don't want to choose between them, I'm glad Bioware didn't force us to choose.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Okay, I must have misunderstood why this point was brought up initially then.

No worries.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

They made a decision under different circumstances.  They were not faced with extinction.  If I say I will never sleep with another women after my wife dies and then an apocalypse occurs and I have to sleep with another women to save humans from extinction, I did not betray my wife.  My circumstnaces changed and the decision I made previously was not made under these new circumstances.

Not a comparable analogy. In your example, the only thing at stake by choosing to sleep with another woman is your pride. What is at stake in promises and reversals of promises can dictate whether or not the circumstantial differences matter. In this respect, I should have been more specific than saying betrayal is just a reversal of opinion.

The game logically takes place over months.  When we meet the Quarians they said they attacked 17 days ago.  It is pretty illogical to pretend like all the missions from the start of the game until he meets the Quarians was done in 17 days.  Various emails and the like you receive make it clear that days and weeks are passing.  So Shepard logically had to be out of prison before the attack.  Further at no point does Tali claim to have tried to call or contact Shepard prior to the War.  Her people are about to make a monumental decision and she doesn't contact her Ship captain, friend and in some cases lover?

Ah, okay, fair enough then. I'll just point out that the geth didn't contact Shepard, either, even after peace talks were cut off.

In ME2, Koris says they could try and colonise a different world.

He's not suggesting they do that during the Reaper war, though. Koris' plan probably amounts to continuing to live in the Migrant Fleet until the Reaper war has passed.

So Gherel's opinion is not the only one.  Furthermore, If you are afraid of a reaper attack or of putting civilians in harms way then launching a war that ultimately would result in a planet that can't feed you and that realistically you can't defend against a Reaper attack and putting those civilians you claim to not want to involve in war in the middle of war by strapping guns to liveships is illogical.

What's illogical is to claim that the quarians didn't need to worry about the Reapers, and then come back and claim that they shouldn't take back Rannoch because then they'd need to worry about the Reapers.

I think a species will choose itself over it's enemies who want to destroy it.  The Quarians want to destroy them.  The Council laws don't want them to exist.  I think it is illogical to expect any species when faced with extinction to choose certain death just so the people that loathed your existence can get what they always wanted.

The geth have given the galaxy no reason to believe they are anything but murderous machines. While they are not to blame for the deep-seated bias that organics have against synthesis, they ARE to blame for the reinforcement of that belief through their actions.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 06:00 .

[remydat]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Not a comparable analogy. In your example, the only thing at stake by choosing to sleep with another woman is your pride. What is at stake in promises and reversals of promises can dictate whether or not the circumstantial differences matter. In this respect, I should have been more specific than saying betrayal is just a reversal of opinion.

Ah, okay, fair enough then. I'll just point out that the geth didn't contact Shepard, either, even after peace talks were cut off.

He's not suggesting they do that during the Reaper war, though.

What's illogical is to claim that the quarians didn't need to worry about the Reapers, and then come back and claim that they shouldn't take back Rannoch because then they'd need to worry about the Reapers.

The geth have given the galaxy no reason to believe they are anything but murderous machines. While they are not to blame for the deep-seeded bias that organics have against synthesis, they ARE to blame for the reinforcement of that belief through their actions.

But the people at stake when the Geth make their decision wish they never existed.  There is not a single organic race in the Galaxy that would commit resources to save them so how can you betray people who wish for your death.  Now if you are just saying anytime anyone changes their opinion every it is a betrayl then fine.  That means everyone include the quarians are betrayers.

The Geth were not planning a war.  What reason would they have to contact Shep for a war they didn't know was coming.  And when they are attacked, how are they going to get their message to Shep when they are currently getting wiped from existence by the Quarians.  Do you think the Quarians are going to let a ship pass.

Koris opposed the Reaper war so he evidently doesn't see it as a good idea.  In fact 3 of 5 admirals opposed it despite allegedly it being the only option.  They just happen to not be as strong in their convictions as Gherrel and Xen.

And you misunderstand my point.  My point was the Reapers don't care about them so attacking Rannoch on that basis is silly.  That is the end of my positon.  I then transitioned and looked at it from the Quarian perspective.  People are claiming they should fear a Reaper attack.  Ok, if you fear the Reaper attack, fighting for  planet that can't feed you and leaving civilians on it while you take the heavy fleet to war is illogical.  If you honestly fear the Reapers then you have divided your forces and left the civilains on Rannoch with less heavy fleet to protect them.  You also had no guarantee the Geth would not destroy bases and fortifications to prevent you from having them.  So you claim to fear the Reapers but then set up on a planet ill suited for prolonged living and ill suited for defense.  If the Reapers did really concern themselves with the Quarians then when the Heavy Fleet joines the war, I send some Reapers to Rannoch, wipe out the civilains while the Heavy Fleet are away and the wipe out the Heavy Fleet who will abandon the war effort once I attack Rannoch.

So you combined two completely separate ideas.  From my perspective I think they could have waited because no attack was emminent.  From there perspective if they honestly thought an attack was evident, their course of action actually makes it easier for the Reapers to destroy them because they plannet they choose can't realistically sustain them by itself for months if not years.

As for the Geth, I am not sure the relevance of your point.  The KKK hates me whether I give them a reason or not.  I don't go out of my way to try and appease them or make them realize that hey I am a nice person, please stop hating me for existing.  So yeah it would be nice if the Geth were more open but using that as an excuse to condemn them over the guys who hated them for just existing makes no sense to me.  The Geth response to organics however extreme or excessive is a normal reaction to people who hate your very existence.  Organics hating ther very existence because of their fear and paranoia is not natural unless we accept prejudice is natural and ok.

Modifié par remydat, 03 avril 2013 - 06:11 .