4712 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Edit: I know separate quotes are super annoying to respond to so please just skip whatever you don't feel like responding to.

remydat wrote...
But the people at stake when the Geth make their decision wish they never existed.  There is not a single organic race in the Galaxy that would commit resources to save them so how can you betray people who wish for your death.  Now if you are just saying anytime anyone changes their opinion every it is a betrayl then fine.  That means everyone include the quarians are betrayers.

And yet the fact that the geth are accepted into the war effort if you save them on Rannoch shows that the galaxy would have accepted them, at the very least for the war effort. If you believe the galaxy would have categorically rejected them prior to Rannoch, then nothing has really changed post-Rannoch.

The Geth were not planning a war.  What reason would they have to contact Shep for a war they didn't know was coming.  And when they are attacked, how are they going to get their message to Shep when they are currently getting wiped from existence by the Quarians.  Do you think the Quarians are going to let a ship pass.

I thought we were blaming the quarians for not contacting Shepard to try and negotiate peace, in which case both parties are guilty. We're talking about before the quarians attacked, after all.

So you combined two completely separate ideas.  From my perspective I think they could have waited because no attack was emminent.  From there perspective if they honestly thought an attack was evident, their course of action actually makes it easier for the Reapers to destroy them because they plannet they choose can't realistically sustain them by itself for months if not years.

What you are missing is that the quarians will no longer be safe once they join the war effort, because they will be attacking Reapers. In such a case the Reapers' opinion of the quarians is irrelevant because they are now not quarians but opposing forces. Your argument only works in a situation where the quarians refuse to join in the Reaper war.

As for the Geth, I am not sure the relevance of your point.  The KKK hates me whether I give them a reason or not.  I don't go out of my way to try and appease them or make them realize that hey I am a nice person, please stop hating me for existing.

You don't, you disregard the KKK and appeal to the non-extremists such that eventually they are forced to accept you as a valid form of life. Eventually, the extremist opinion will be at odds with the popular opinion, which is another way of defeating them.

So yeah it would be nice if the Geth were more open but using that as an excuse to condemn them over the guys who hated them for just existing makes no sense to me.

I'm not condemning them just because of that, but it would have made a difference to me if the geth had acted in ways conducive to peace and negotiation. They didn't, so the hole in which they now find themselves is partially their fault, too.

The Geth response to organics however extreme or excessive is a normal reaction to people who hate your very existence. Organics hating ther very existence because of their fear and paranoia is not natural unless we accept prejudice is natural and ok.

Both reactions are natural, neither reaction is okay.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 03 avril 2013 - 06:56 .

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

The geth didnt accept the reapers aid and were prepared to fight them unil their neighbour turned on them and started a war of annihiltion. And the heretics dont count any more than cerberus.
If the heretics count then humanity betrayed the galaxy and joined the reapers long ago.
And for some reason there are still geth hoping there will be an end to the reapers after the quarians turned on them.

Not true.
The fact that the Reapers placed a blast-shielded base surrounded by jamming towers on Rannoch, plus had Legion somehow hooked up to that Dreadnought ready to broadcast, all ready before the megastructure attack, is beyond convient. (The "Planetary discription" of the "Geth Debris Field" reveals that the attack in the megastructure was inturrupted before it could be completed. Meaning the geth somehow got the upgrades AS the megastructure was attacked.)
So no, the geth were in Reaper contact well before the invasion. Why isn't really known. Perhaps desperation as they thought no other organic would take them in. @Hazegirl and I even theroized that perhaps the Reapers knew what the quarians were planning and told the geth about it, panicking them.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

The fact that they are a military dictatorship and the fact that it's part of their social identity doesn't make it any better.

But I really don't want to choose between them, I'm glad Bioware didn't force us to choose.

But again, that's wrong. The quarians AREN'T run by dictatorship.
The quarians have laws that spicifically prevent that, stating that no course of action can be forceb by the Admorals  on the fleet without unanimous concent. In other words, quarian law forbids Gerrel to force the fleet to war unless all four of the other Admirals uninamously agree and back him.
Failing that, the matter must be put to the Conclave - the quarian's senete, where every ship in the fleet has a represenitive. Then, the Conclave members poll the decision among every ship in the fleet. So no, it's actually the comeplete opposate of a dictatorship.
The majority of quarians willingly voted for this war. You can take Dorn'Hazt's word about them not wanting to go to war, but they still chose to go to war because they felt the alternitive was to die in space.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 03 avril 2013 - 07:28 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

The geth didnt accept the reapers aid and were prepared to fight them unil their neighbour turned on them and started a war of annihiltion. And the heretics dont count any more than cerberus.
If the heretics count then humanity betrayed the galaxy and joined the reapers long ago.
And for some reason there are still geth hoping there will be an end to the reapers after the quarians turned on them.

Not true.
The fact that the Reapers placed a blast-shielded base surrounded by jamming towers on Rannoch, plus had Legion somehow hooked up to that Dreadnought ready to broadcast, all ready before the megastructure attack, is beyond convient. (The "Planetary discription" of the "Geth Debris Field" reveals that the attack in the megastructure was inturrupted before it could be completed. Meaning the geth somehow got the upgrades AS the megastructure was attacked.)
So no, the geth were in Reaper contact well before the invasion. Why isn't really known. Perhaps desperation as they thought no other organic would take them in. @Hazegirl and I even theroized that perhaps the Reapers knew what the quarians were planning and told the geth about it, panicking them.

We don't know what that base was originaly used for, could have been a server hub or whatever. And Legion wasn't Shackled and tortured until after the Quarians had started killing Geth living in their sphere aroudn the sun. I don't even think Legion knew there was a reaper destroyer down there, he probably would have told you that.
Unless of course Legions "gouvernment" had keept it a secret from Legion. It seems unlikely but apparently Geth are capable of deciving others including their own.

[S.A.K]

Geth have never given any reason for organics to not hate or fear them since the MW. If they did please specify when. Organics have tried to communicate, but Geth always ignored them. Come to think of it, I can't actually blame Quarians for attacking. Geth were obviously not going to hand them Rannoch peacefully.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

The geth didnt accept the reapers aid and were prepared to fight them unil their neighbour turned on them and started a war of annihiltion. And the heretics dont count any more than cerberus.
If the heretics count then humanity betrayed the galaxy and joined the reapers long ago.
And for some reason there are still geth hoping there will be an end to the reapers after the quarians turned on them.

Not true.
The fact that the Reapers placed a blast-shielded base surrounded by jamming towers on Rannoch, plus had Legion somehow hooked up to that Dreadnought ready to broadcast, all ready before the megastructure attack, is beyond convient. (The "Planetary discription" of the "Geth Debris Field" reveals that the attack in the megastructure was inturrupted before it could be completed. Meaning the geth somehow got the upgrades AS the megastructure was attacked.)
So no, the geth were in Reaper contact well before the invasion. Why isn't really known. Perhaps desperation as they thought no other organic would take them in. @Hazegirl and I even theroized that perhaps the Reapers knew what the quarians were planning and told the geth about it, panicking them.

We don't know what that base was originaly used for, could have been a server hub or whatever. And Legion wasn't Shackled and tortured until after the Quarians had started killing Geth living in their sphere aroudn the sun. I don't even think Legion knew there was a reaper destroyer down there, he probably would have told you that.
Unless of course Legions "gouvernment" had keept it a secret from Legion. It seems unlikely but apparently Geth are capable of deciving others including their own.

Perfecty spected to size?
And Legion personally tells you "The Old Machines have placed a base on Rannoch." And Raan says the geth have errected Jamming Towers to defend the Reaper signal, suggesting recent construction.
And AGAIN, wrong. The geth dreadnought was the source of the signal that was broadcast to the fleet, Legion was hoocked up to it to broadcast the signal. And since the signal came online in time to intterupt the megastructure attack, Legion was shackled up to the core long before the attack.
Also, when did I say anything about torture? Legion didn't look in pain. Just imobile. And Legion being kept in the dark because it was isolated in the dreadnought the entire time would be more likely.

[remydat]

Crono

1.  The point here is you are asking the Geth to accept death instead of the Reapers offer so that organics none of whom would lift a finger to help can toast their demise.  I am not suggesting any organic should care mind you.  Given the history, it is perfectly understandable that they would not lift a finger to help.  But the point is likewise it is perfectly understandable why given the history the Geth opt to save themselves instead of these organics who would just as soon spit on their grave than lend them a hand.  That is the problem with prejudice. 

2.  If these two group want to hate each other forever, I really don't care provided they do so without killing each other.  However, if you are contemplating war ro resolve issues then it is your duty to exhaust all other options first.  War should be a last resort.  So I am not blaming them for not trying peace.  I am blaming them for not trying peace when they knew they were going to go to war.

3.  They are not safe under either scenario.  If they leave their civilians on Rannoch while they join the war, how are those civilians not dead if a Reaper attacks?  All you have done is divided your forces and left the most vulnerable forces on a planet that can't feed them or adequately defend them.  Rannoch doesn't magically make your heavy fleet resistant to attack.  So all you did was launch a war and deliver the Reapers a formidabble ally and what have you gains exactly?  Instead of your civilians getting shot out of the sky in ships that however slow you deem can still potentially escape they are now on a planet recently shot up in a way that is not immediately capable of feeding or adequately defending them.  I suppose there is some value in dying on you home soil.

4.  What non-extremists?  Did the council change their laws when the Geth were not on the extranet? You speak of Quarians not trusting Geth but why should the Geth trust any organic when the Council Laws are on the books?  Did I miss where a single organic aside from the Quarians who protested and died during the MW has ever protested this law?  Is there an organic group out there that officially defends synthetic rights?  

5.  I know that was not the only reason to condemn them but it is not a very good reason to bring up at all because of 4 above.  It would make a difference to me with the Quarians if any organic group had ever in the 300 years sense suggested the Council Laws are prejudiced and should be removed.  300 years and not a single organic to my knowledge ever appeared to consider, "hey maybe the problem here is the council we support officially deems synthetics have no right to exist."

6.  No I disagree.  Hating or fearing something that has done nothing to you to the point your first response is to kill it is a different level of wrong than fearing something and every thing like it because the tried to exterminate you.  It would be like saying 1st degree pre-mediated murder is the same as involuntarily manslaughter.  Mind you I am not suggesting these terms are 100% comparable to the Qurian/Geth situation but my point is there are different degrees of wrong.  Quarians supporters keep trying to imply that because the Quarians and Geth have both committed crimes, it must mean they were equally wrong.  That is not supported by how we structure our legal system.  The law recognizes distinctions within similar crimes because life is more complicated than that.

These are clearly subject to debate so despite my disagree, you are entitled to believe what you want but just trying to explain how I arrive at my conclusions.  The Quarians tried to make the Geth victims of prejudiced and murder when the Geth did nothing to them.  I will judge that more harshly than I do the Geth who responded to that very real threat with excessive force.

Modifié par remydat, 03 avril 2013 - 07:40 .

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

Geth have never given any reason for organics to not hate or fear them since the MW. If they did please specify when. Organics have tried to communicate, but Geth always ignored them. Come to think of it, I can't actually blame Quarians for attacking. Geth were obviously not going to hand them Rannoch peacefully.

Organics used bullets as means of communication. Both the Quarians and the Council used this form of communication when synthetics were involved. The Geth probably didn't belive the council would try "civilized" negotiations after their cold blooded murders of synthetics around the end of the mourning war.

When did the Quarians earn anyones trust? I can't recall anything like that. What we got here is two seriously messed up species with no social or diplomatic skills what so ever! I wouldn't call the council masters of diplomacy either. It's a seriously messed up galaxy if you think about it.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

The geth didnt accept the reapers aid and were prepared to fight them unil their neighbour turned on them and started a war of annihiltion. And the heretics dont count any more than cerberus.
If the heretics count then humanity betrayed the galaxy and joined the reapers long ago.
And for some reason there are still geth hoping there will be an end to the reapers after the quarians turned on them.

Not true.
The fact that the Reapers placed a blast-shielded base surrounded by jamming towers on Rannoch, plus had Legion somehow hooked up to that Dreadnought ready to broadcast, all ready before the megastructure attack, is beyond convient. (The "Planetary discription" of the "Geth Debris Field" reveals that the attack in the megastructure was inturrupted before it could be completed. Meaning the geth somehow got the upgrades AS the megastructure was attacked.)
So no, the geth were in Reaper contact well before the invasion. Why isn't really known. Perhaps desperation as they thought no other organic would take them in. @Hazegirl and I even theroized that perhaps the Reapers knew what the quarians were planning and told the geth about it, panicking them.

We don't know what that base was originaly used for, could have been a server hub or whatever. And Legion wasn't Shackled and tortured until after the Quarians had started killing Geth living in their sphere aroudn the sun. I don't even think Legion knew there was a reaper destroyer down there, he probably would have told you that.
Unless of course Legions "gouvernment" had keept it a secret from Legion. It seems unlikely but apparently Geth are capable of deciving others including their own.

Perfecty spected to size?
And Legion personally tells you "The Old Machines have placed a base on Rannoch." And Raan says the geth have errected Jamming Towers to defend the Reaper signal, suggesting recent construction.
And AGAIN, wrong. The geth dreadnought was the source of the signal that was broadcast to the fleet, Legion was hoocked up to it to broadcast the signal. And since the signal came online in time to intterupt the megastructure attack, Legion was shackled up to the core long before the attack.
Also, when did I say anything about torture? Legion didn't look in pain. Just imobile. And Legion being kept in the dark because it was isolated in the dreadnought the entire time would be more likely.

The mega structure was mostly destroyed before the signal went online.

[Auld Wulf]

@Silver

Hate fetish for the geth aside, shodiswe is right. There's absolutely no way you can ignore the many times you're told that the megastructure is destroyed before old machine cooperation, and that the panic caused by the destruction of the megastructure was the reason for old machine cooperation.

Jussayin'.

[Argolas]

shodiswe wrote...

Argolas wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

I'm also aware that some people told the Quarians to attack and promised Tali her world back! I didn't, because I don't belive a war is what the galaxy need! Especialy with the Reapers o the doorstep or while the Reapers are harvesting half the galaxy to extinction!

I agree that it was a stupid idea to attack the Geth at the time of the Reaper war, but I can't really blame them. They had the resources to arm their ships and they had a good plan that would have brought them a quick victory with very few casualties. It is their home world we are talking about, the only world where they ever have a chance to walk free of their suits... and once their civilians are safe on a planet, they can throw their whole fleet at the Reapers.

Besides, I still think the Geth had it coming. They should have left Rannoch long ago. How can you expect peace while you occupie the only possible home of the very people you forced out of there before?

For the whole duration of the war they couldn't have walked freely on the old homeworld without their suits, it would have killed most of them. It only truly helps them in the long run if the Reaper war is won.

It's not a rational thing, it was no rational decision to attack Rannoch and I don't support it. All I am saying is that I can understand their POV. Being able to live without their suits is not a necessity they need, it's a dream to the Quarians. Only the chance to put off their masks for a moment and look at their homeworld sky like Tali does is a thing that probably every Quarian has.

But there is one true argument that I mentioned: The lifeships are a considerable fleet of armed ships by then, but with all the civilians on board, they can't risk throwing them at the Reapers. When they have Rannoch, they just need to establish a basic supply for less than 17 million who are already used to being short on resources and can commit all other ships to the war effort.

Once again, I do consider the Quarian attack stupid. I'm just saying that I can understand why they would want to do that.

[CronoDragoon]

remydat wrote...

1.  The point here is you are asking the Geth to accept death instead of the Reapers offer so that organics none of whom would lift a finger to help can toast their demise.  I am not suggesting any organic should care mind you.  Given the history, it is perfectly understandable that they would not lift a finger to help.  But the point is likewise it is perfectly understandable why given the history the Geth opt to save themselves instead of these organics who would just as soon spit on their grave than lend them a hand.  That is the problem with prejudice. 

2.  If these two group want to hate each other forever, I really don't care provided they do so without killing each other.  However, if you are contemplating war ro resolve issues then it is your duty to exhaust all other options first.  War should be a last resort.  So I am not blaming them for not trying peace.  I am blaming them for not trying peace when they knew they were going to go to war.

3.  They are not safe under either scenario.  If they leave their civilians on Rannoch while they join the war, how are those civilians not dead if a Reaper attacks?  All you have done is divided your forces and left the most vulnerable forces on a planet that can't feed them or adequately defend them.  Rannoch doesn't magically make your heavy fleet resistant to attack.  So all you did was launch a war and deliver the Reapers a formidabble ally and what have you gains exactly?  Instead of your civilians getting shot out of the sky in ships that however slow you deem can still potentially escape they are now on a planet recently shot up in a way that is not immediately capable of feeding or adequately defending them.  I suppose there is some value in dying on you home soil.

4.  What non-extremists?  Did the council change their laws when the Geth were not on the extranet? You speak of Quarians not trusting Geth but why should the Geth trust any organic when the Council Laws are on the books?  Did I miss where a single organic aside from the Quarians who protested and died during the MW has ever protested this law?  Is there an organic group out there that officially defends synthetic rights?  

5.  I know that was not the only reason to condemn them but it is not a very good reason to bring up at all because of 4 above.  It would make a difference to me with the Quarians if any organic group had ever in the 300 years sense suggested the Council Laws are prejudiced and should be removed.  300 years and not a single organic to my knowledge ever appeared to consider, "hey maybe the problem here is the council we support officially deems synthetics have no right to exist."

6.  No I disagree.  Hating or fearing something that has done nothing to you to the point your first response is to kill it is a different level of wrong than fearing something and every thing like it because the tried to exterminate you.  It would be like saying 1st degree pre-mediated murder is the same as involuntarily manslaughter.  Mind you I am not suggesting these terms are 100% comparable to the Qurian/Geth situation but my point is there are different degrees of wrong.  Quarians supporters keep trying to imply that because the Quarians and Geth have both committed crimes, it must mean they were equally wrong.  That is not supported by how we structure our legal system.  The law recognizes distinctions within similar crimes because life is more complicated than that.

1. It is indeed understandable as I have said. That does not mean that I accept their conclusion, nor does it mean I am prejudiced against them for not accepting their conclusion.

2. And what I am saying is that this applies to the geth as well. You say that war should be a last resort, but I find it hard to believe that the geth's hostility towards anyone approaching Rannoch was a "last resort." You're either trying for peace or you should be preparing for war. Sitting on Rannoch without attempting peace with the quarians and then not expecting retaliating is extremely ignorant.

3. The thought process is that the Reapers aren't going to attack Rannoch if all it has are a few million quarian civilians running around. You can disagree with that thought process of course.

4. It's not about trusting organics. You seem to think that the geth would be exposing themselves in communicating with the rest of the galaxy, but they aren't. I'm not suggesting the geth all fly into Citadel space for a pow-wow, if that's what you think. Also given how easily the geth were accepted post-Rannoch, even after destroying an organic race, wartime represents a prime opportunity for them to contact Shepard and work out at the very least a cease-fire for the Council law on AI. The galaxy is not as biased as you think, and it's clear that not everyone is as fervently anti-synthetic as you want to believe.

5. What this amounts to is shock and appall that in response to geth behaving like genocidal isolationists, the Council finds evidence to reinforce their law against synthetic life. Things might have been different had the geth taken a different approach, but of course we'll never really know.

6. The law also recognizes inappropriate responses in self-defense. You can only claim self-defense to a point, and then your response becomes excessive and a crime in itself. In any case, you can't quantify equality when it comes to actions and the degree of blame or guilt we assess in contemplating which side to exterminate. My purpose in outlining the general uncooperative and at times downright antagonistic and murderous behavior of the geth mitigates the consideration that the quarians "started it."

These are clearly subject to debate so despite my disagree, you are
entitled to believe what you want but just trying to explain how
I arrive at my conclusions.  The Quarians tried to make the Geth victims
of prejudiced and murder when the Geth did nothing to them.  I will
judge that more harshly than I do the Geth who responded to that very
real threat with excessive force.

Which quarians? MW quarians or ME3 quarians? Excessive force is also the understatement of the century.

I also don't begrudge you any of your opinions. This is a really difficult choice and I am suspicious of anyone who believes the decision is clear-cut. In my opinion the quarians are only barely more worthy of saving than the geth.

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The only thing star brat has a right to do is die or just not exist. His logic is dumb and he should probably use his processing power into researching his opinions before he opens his trap.

Star brat is merely doing the same thing we are.  We have less information than him really but that doesn't prevent us from forming opinions.  In the end, we are free to arrive at our own conclusions which is more than can be said for all the previous cycles.

I find it hard to believe that Star Brat couldn't just have choked Shep out if he wanted to.  Don't let that cute face fool you.  Star Brat has a mean fist game.

Oh Starbrat wouldn't dare choke out THE Shepard.

Besides, he needed Shepard to do his bidding for him. Can't do that if his neck is twisted.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

LOTSB. Read Legion's dossier.

I did before I asked you to clarify, so I'm still confused. What am I looking for?

Yes this doesn't mean they'd do that every single time. Especially after you know being helped against the Reapers and gaining a higher lvl of intelligence and you know after having been enslaved to a Reaper before a deciding they rather not.

 

Or we gonna ignore the changed perceptive and assume they'd do the same thing each time?

I was under the impression that you thought their initial decision was "realistic." Since what has changed is essentially a more highly evolved intelligence, it seems we agree that the initial decision to ally with the Reapers was actually  fundamentally stupid. In that case, a more highly evolved intelligence would probably (correctly) calculate that even after allying with the Reapers their race would not be saved and thus they wouldn't backstab anyone. Whether or not they would remain loyal out of honor or emotion is a more complicated question.

Not to mention you think some organic races wouldn't have gladly thrown each other under the bus if they thought the Reapers would let them survive? Sure some won't (Shown via EDI's story) but according to Javik? Whole race of people killed their own children in the hopes that the Reapers would leave them alone.

And if I had to choose between an organic race that threw other races under the bus and one that didn't join my enemy, the choice is clear. This isn't an anti-synthetics argument I'm making; it's based solely on their actions. If the quarians had joined the Reapers to get their homeworld back under the promise that they wouldn't be harvested, I'd have destroyed them.

The geth didnt accept the reapers aid and were prepared to fight them unil their neighbour turned on them and started a war of annihiltion. And the heretics dont count any more than cerberus.
If the heretics count then humanity betrayed the galaxy and joined the reapers long ago.
And for some reason there are still geth hoping there will be an end to the reapers after the quarians turned on them.

Not true.
The fact that the Reapers placed a blast-shielded base surrounded by jamming towers on Rannoch, plus had Legion somehow hooked up to that Dreadnought ready to broadcast, all ready before the megastructure attack, is beyond convient. (The "Planetary discription" of the "Geth Debris Field" reveals that the attack in the megastructure was inturrupted before it could be completed. Meaning the geth somehow got the upgrades AS the megastructure was attacked.)
So no, the geth were in Reaper contact well before the invasion. Why isn't really known. Perhaps desperation as they thought no other organic would take them in. @Hazegirl and I even theroized that perhaps the Reapers knew what the quarians were planning and told the geth about it, panicking them.

We don't know what that base was originaly used for, could have been a server hub or whatever. And Legion wasn't Shackled and tortured until after the Quarians had started killing Geth living in their sphere aroudn the sun. I don't even think Legion knew there was a reaper destroyer down there, he probably would have told you that.
Unless of course Legions "gouvernment" had keept it a secret from Legion. It seems unlikely but apparently Geth are capable of deciving others including their own.

Perfecty spected to size?
And Legion personally tells you "The Old Machines have placed a base on Rannoch." And Raan says the geth have errected Jamming Towers to defend the Reaper signal, suggesting recent construction.
And AGAIN, wrong. The geth dreadnought was the source of the signal that was broadcast to the fleet, Legion was hoocked up to it to broadcast the signal. And since the signal came online in time to intterupt the megastructure attack, Legion was shackled up to the core long before the attack.
Also, when did I say anything about torture? Legion didn't look in pain. Just imobile. And Legion being kept in the dark because it was isolated in the dreadnought the entire time would be more likely.

The mega structure was mostly destroyed before the signal went online.

Not really. The discription says the destruction was incomplete, and that the quarians were intterupted before it was complete.

[silverexile17s]

Hazegurl wrote...

remydat wrote...

Hazegurl wrote...

The only thing star brat has a right to do is die or just not exist. His logic is dumb and he should probably use his processing power into researching his opinions before he opens his trap.

Star brat is merely doing the same thing we are.  We have less information than him really but that doesn't prevent us from forming opinions.  In the end, we are free to arrive at our own conclusions which is more than can be said for all the previous cycles.

I find it hard to believe that Star Brat couldn't just have choked Shep out if he wanted to.  Don't let that cute face fool you.  Star Brat has a mean fist game.

Oh Starbrat wouldn't dare choke out THE Shepard.

Besides, he needed Shepard to do his bidding for him. Can't do that if his neck is twisted.

That's actually more or less correct. The Catalyst needs Shepard to activate the Crucible, otherwise, the Catalyst would have activated Synthesis itself. But it need's Shepard's DNA. It needs Shepard to submit to the Synthesis.
The fact that the Catalyst doesn't do anything seems to indicate that it's locked from activating the Crucible itself. Perhaps it's Shackled inside the Citadel, like EDI was.

[shodiswe]

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

1.  The point here is you are asking the Geth to accept death instead of the Reapers offer so that organics none of whom would lift a finger to help can toast their demise.  I am not suggesting any organic should care mind you.  Given the history, it is perfectly understandable that they would not lift a finger to help.  But the point is likewise it is perfectly understandable why given the history the Geth opt to save themselves instead of these organics who would just as soon spit on their grave than lend them a hand.  That is the problem with prejudice. 

2.  If these two group want to hate each other forever, I really don't care provided they do so without killing each other.  However, if you are contemplating war ro resolve issues then it is your duty to exhaust all other options first.  War should be a last resort.  So I am not blaming them for not trying peace.  I am blaming them for not trying peace when they knew they were going to go to war.

3.  They are not safe under either scenario.  If they leave their civilians on Rannoch while they join the war, how are those civilians not dead if a Reaper attacks?  All you have done is divided your forces and left the most vulnerable forces on a planet that can't feed them or adequately defend them.  Rannoch doesn't magically make your heavy fleet resistant to attack.  So all you did was launch a war and deliver the Reapers a formidabble ally and what have you gains exactly?  Instead of your civilians getting shot out of the sky in ships that however slow you deem can still potentially escape they are now on a planet recently shot up in a way that is not immediately capable of feeding or adequately defending them.  I suppose there is some value in dying on you home soil.

4.  What non-extremists?  Did the council change their laws when the Geth were not on the extranet? You speak of Quarians not trusting Geth but why should the Geth trust any organic when the Council Laws are on the books?  Did I miss where a single organic aside from the Quarians who protested and died during the MW has ever protested this law?  Is there an organic group out there that officially defends synthetic rights?  

5.  I know that was not the only reason to condemn them but it is not a very good reason to bring up at all because of 4 above.  It would make a difference to me with the Quarians if any organic group had ever in the 300 years sense suggested the Council Laws are prejudiced and should be removed.  300 years and not a single organic to my knowledge ever appeared to consider, "hey maybe the problem here is the council we support officially deems synthetics have no right to exist."

6.  No I disagree.  Hating or fearing something that has done nothing to you to the point your first response is to kill it is a different level of wrong than fearing something and every thing like it because the tried to exterminate you.  It would be like saying 1st degree pre-mediated murder is the same as involuntarily manslaughter.  Mind you I am not suggesting these terms are 100% comparable to the Qurian/Geth situation but my point is there are different degrees of wrong.  Quarians supporters keep trying to imply that because the Quarians and Geth have both committed crimes, it must mean they were equally wrong.  That is not supported by how we structure our legal system.  The law recognizes distinctions within similar crimes because life is more complicated than that.

1. It is indeed understandable as I have said. That does not mean that I accept their conclusion, nor does it mean I am prejudiced against them for not accepting their conclusion.

2. And what I am saying is that this applies to the geth as well. You say that war should be a last resort, but I find it hard to believe that the geth's hostility towards anyone approaching Rannoch was a "last resort." You're either trying for peace or you should be preparing for war. Sitting on Rannoch without attempting peace with the quarians and then not expecting retaliating is extremely ignorant.

3. The thought process is that the Reapers aren't going to attack Rannoch if all it has are a few million quarian civilians running around. You can disagree with that thought process of course.

4. It's not about trusting organics. You seem to think that the geth would be exposing themselves in communicating with the rest of the galaxy, but they aren't. I'm not suggesting the geth all fly into Citadel space for a pow-wow, if that's what you think. Also given how easily the geth were accepted post-Rannoch, even after destroying an organic race, wartime represents a prime opportunity for them to contact Shepard and work out at the very least a cease-fire for the Council law on AI. The galaxy is not as biased as you think, and it's clear that not everyone is as fervently anti-synthetic as you want to believe.

5. What this amounts to is shock and appall that in response to geth behaving like genocidal isolationists, the Council finds evidence to reinforce their law against synthetic life. Things might have been different had the geth taken a different approach, but of course we'll never really know.

6. The law also recognizes inappropriate responses in self-defense. You can only claim self-defense to a point, and then your response becomes excessive and a crime in itself. In any case, you can't quantify equality when it comes to actions and the degree of blame or guilt we assess in contemplating which side to exterminate. My purpose in outlining the general uncooperative and at times downright antagonistic and murderous behavior of the geth mitigates the consideration that the quarians "started it."

These are clearly subject to debate so despite my disagree, you are
entitled to believe what you want but just trying to explain how
I arrive at my conclusions.  The Quarians tried to make the Geth victims
of prejudiced and murder when the Geth did nothing to them.  I will
judge that more harshly than I do the Geth who responded to that very
real threat with excessive force.

Which quarians? MW quarians or ME3 quarians? Excessive force is also the understatement of the century.

I also don't begrudge you any of your opinions. This is a really difficult choice and I am suspicious of anyone who believes the decision is clear-cut. In my opinion the quarians are only barely more worthy of saving than the geth.

It's good to hear that im not the only one who finds the situation somewhat troubling. But I must admit I was very dissapointed with the Quarians when I realzied what they were up to. I like Tali one of my Shepards romanced her and it was a good romance.
But when I look at what was going on and the situation we got I can't help but feel very upset with them. And that was before I did the Quarian/geth story arch in ME3, I was merely reading the peports in the spectre office and realized they were going to screw things up royaly.
From my point of view they risked the survival of the whole galaxy for their greed and pettyness.

In a way I suspect the Quarians would have tried to wipe out the Gethe even if the Geth had told them they could have Rannoch before the Quarians attacked. With their flashbang thign they wanted revenge and to destroy the Geth, it was a war plan with the use of ethnic cleansing. The geth sphere was the home of billions of unarmed geth. You know, just to be on the safe side! And for revenge if nothing else.

[remydat]

CronoDragoon,

1.  It's fine if you don't accept their conclusion.  And I don't think I ever suggested you were prejudice.  I am explaining why I chose them despite that choice ie that choice was the direct result of Quarian agression. 

2.  But the Geth were not planning war.  They simply wanted to be left alone.  I have no obligation to listen to the KKK.  You can send me long range messages or the like but if I don't respond then leave me alone.  The Geth were not invading Council space.  Basically all organics are doing is trying to impose themselves once again on the Geth.  They think they had no right to live, let's kill them.  Now they want to talk so they think the Geth are obliged to talk.  No, that is not how it works. 

3. That is not the thought process that people were brining up.  They were saying that the Quarians feared a reaper attack and that is why they attacked.  That has been stated for over 120 pages now.  The logic you just stated is fine with me but it is all the more reason why they could have asked Sheperd to reach out to the Geth first.  No attack was eminent so why not?  Again, they attack 17 days ago and the game takes place over several months as far as I can tell. 

4. They shouldn't have to work out anything though.  I shouldn't have to negotiate with you for you to recognize my right to exist.  That is guaranteed by the constitution of America and pretty much any civilized people.  For me to negotiate my right to exist is in and of itself indicative of the galaxy's bias.

5. See above.  I don't negotiate my right to exist Croono.  None of us do.  You don't have to convince the America government to recognize your existence.  If the Galaxy wants to talk then they eliminate the law as an act of good faith.  They are the prejudice people here that created the situation the Galaxy is in. 

6. The law recognizes people have to have the capacity to understand their actions.  That is why children with undeveloped concepts of morality or insane people are not tried the same as adults.  There is no clear cut proof the Geth understood their actions as their is no proof that shortly after being born they were taught the morals of war or life.  In fact, the lesson they were taught upon birth is that we hate you for existing and you need to die.  The Quarians taught the Geth that the appropriate response to a perceived threat is to eliminate it completely.  That was the lesson their gods taught them and they simply executed on that lesson better than their gods.

So yes it is a tough call but no I don't think the Quarians are more worthy.  They taught the Geth a recently born sentient species to exterminate a threat and then 300 years later they once again choose to deal with their problems by trying to exterminate a threat.  They have learned nothing in 300 years IMO and the difference is their race are millions of years old like say humanity and should know better by now.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

That's actually more or less correct. The Catalyst needs Shepard to activate the Crucible, otherwise, the Catalyst would have activated Synthesis itself. But it need's Shepard's DNA. It needs Shepard to submit to the Synthesis.
The fact that the Catalyst doesn't do anything seems to indicate that it's locked from activating the Crucible itself. Perhaps it's Shackled inside the Citadel, like EDI was.

If he wanted to he could have told Shep Synthesis was Destroy.  If he wanted too the dude who created the Reapers could have choked Shep out and throw his unconscious living body into the light of synthesis.  The fact the Catalyst doesn't do anything is most likely because he doesn't know what to do.  He has an opinion but like the Geth when they had the option to eliminate the Quarians but refused because they couldn't calculate the implications, he really can't decide if that opinion is correct.  Shep's journey has screwed up his calculations so he does nothing and leaves it up to Shep just like Legion couldn't decide what to do with the Heretics and so let's Legion decide.  That is what machines seem to do when confronted with something they can't calculate with any degree of certainty.

[CronoDragoon]

shodiswe wrote...

In a way I suspect the Quarians would have tried to wipe out the Gethe even if the Geth had told them they could have Rannoch before the Quarians attacked. With their flashbang thign they wanted revenge and to destroy the Geth, it was a war plan with the use of ethnic cleansing. The geth sphere was the home of billions of unarmed geth. You know, just to be on the safe side! And for revenge if nothing else.

See I don't believe that. The only person who seems more concerned with the geth than with Rannoch to me is Xen. Gerrel may be a warhawk but he's still doing it because he believes it's the best way to win Rannoch back.

Here is what happens based on the condition of geth/quarian relations as of the end of ME2/beginning of ME3 if the storyline proceeds logically:

Legion to Tali: We're actually just cleaning up Rannoch from the Morning War for you. We don't even live on Rannoch and just live in space stations. As a sign of good faith we will vacate the Perseus Veil since we have no special connection to it anyway. We don't want any more Creator or geth deaths after all.

Tali relays this, the quarians send a scout ship and find that Rannoch has indeed been abandoned, the quarians return to Rannoch and continue to negotiate peace terms with the geth, eventually forming a tenuous yet bloodless ceasefire as they both inform Shepard that their swords are his to command.

Of course, that isn't nearly dramatic enough or worthy of being a focal arc in Mass Effect 3 so instead we have nonsensical decisions on both sides that exacerbate the situation needlessly. It's the classic case of characters being dumb because the writers want something to happen and it's frustrating.

[Da Don Giovanni]

CronoDragoon wrote...

...Gerrel may be a warhawk...

Ya don't say!

[Ryzaki]

CronoDragoon wrote...
*snip*

Yeah you can feel guilty about something while still being pissed off at the people. I punched mys siter once and broke her nose. Felt guilty about breaking her nose. Still she did deserve that punch to the face. The geth having some resentment over the Quarians constantly trying to kill them whenever they met isn't something strange.

Legion seeing her restricting herself as illogical makes sense when you realize for the most part he never had to do that  *save with Shepard and he flat out says the communication is inefficent* (and it is kind of silly considering EDI and him would talk faster if she didn't restrict herself. It's not like they're having a three way conversation.)  Some people feel it's rude to speak in a language in a room filled with people who don't know that language. Others don't care if they communicate better. EDI strikes me as the former.

That was pretty much before they had reasons to help organics.

Didn't to mine when he discovered the reason for it. So YMMV.

And I don't. If one is stupid enough to have leaders who put bombs on their children's schoolbuses to go to a pointless war when they're aware of an incoming Reaper invasion, I'm far more disgusted at them than the race as a whole that went to the Reapers rather than die. But YMMV and all

And there's no maybe about Gherrel being a warmongering idiot.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2013 - 12:08 .

[Hazegurl]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's actually more or less correct. The Catalyst needs Shepard to activate the Crucible, otherwise, the Catalyst would have activated Synthesis itself. But it need's Shepard's DNA. It needs Shepard to submit to the Synthesis.
The fact that the Catalyst doesn't do anything seems to indicate that it's locked from activating the Crucible itself. Perhaps it's Shackled inside the Citadel, like EDI was.

If he wanted to he could have told Shep Synthesis was Destroy.  If he wanted too the dude who created the Reapers could have choked Shep out and throw his unconscious living body into the light of synthesis.  The fact the Catalyst doesn't do anything is most likely because he doesn't know what to do.  He has an opinion but like the Geth when they had the option to eliminate the Quarians but refused because they couldn't calculate the implications, he really can't decide if that opinion is correct.  Shep's journey has screwed up his calculations so he does nothing and leaves it up to Shep just like Legion couldn't decide what to do with the Heretics and so let's Legion decide.  That is what machines seem to do when confronted with something they can't calculate with any degree of certainty.

I have to give it to Silver on this one. The Starbrat knows just what he wants but just can't do it on his own. He needed Shepard to do it for him. Remember he says this to Shepard. He says that new options are open but he can't make it happen. I don't even think he can touch Shepard. Being all transparent and everything. So he proceeds to guide Shepard to his decision, which is Synthesis. It is the one he has nothing negative to say about. I do wonder why he doesn't just flat out trick Shepard about the Synthesis beam. It would be the smartest thing to do. But then again it could be difficult to sell the idea of jumping inside a beam of light to offer DNA that would destory the Reapers, not when there are two other color coded options blantantly sitting on the opposite ends of it.

What can he say if Shepard asks? The Red side gives Reapers super laser beam eyes and the Blue gives the reapers new powers?

It would then be followed by this

[remydat]

Khelish,

It was Tali's job to tell the Quarians to stop firing no Shepard's job. He specifically told Tali to do it.

The Geth VI fires because the Quarians are shooting at them. What are they suppose to do? The dialogue is clear that the Quarians never stop shooting under any of the non peace options.

And Tali and I are all good. In fact, I am looking at the picture she gave me right now, lol.

P.S. Continuing to PM me and then blocking me is hilarious. You are like a Quarian that is like hey let me kill you but don't try and kill me back except you are like let me talk to you but don't try and talk to me back. Lol, Really dude.

[remydat]

Hazegurl wrote...

I have to give it to Silver on this one. The Starbrat knows just what he wants but just can't do it on his own. He needed Shepard to do it for him. Remember he says this to Shepard. He says that new options are open but he can't make it happen. I don't even think he can touch Shepard. Being all transparent and everything. So he proceeds to guide Shepard to his decision, which is Synthesis. It is the one he has nothing negative to say about. I do wonder why he doesn't just flat out trick Shepard about the Synthesis beam. It would be the smartest thing to do. But then again it could be difficult to sell the idea of jumping inside a beam of light to offer DNA that would destory the Reapers, not when there are two other color coded options blantantly sitting on the opposite ends of it.

What can he say if Shepard asks? The Red side gives Reapers super laser beam eyes and the Blue gives the reapers new powers?

It would then be followed by this

From where he starts, he can't see the buttons or the lights up close to be suspicious of them.  He would literally have to go and investigate each in order to even think about the fact that one is just walking into a beam. And he unlike us doesn't have all day.  The Galaxy is dying outside, he is shot to pieces, and limping.  Not to mention I believe the refuse option kicks in if he takes too long.  All Star Kid had to do was say the true synthesis is really Destroy, the true Destroy is Control and the true Control is synthese. How the hell is Shepard going to figure out the truth?  Based on some Mass Effect booklet Star Kid dropped on the floor explaining the truth?

Look, this all just sounds to me like people hate the endings so they just project all their hate for Bioware on Star Kid.  Everyone damn well knows Bioware prefered Synthesis so trying to act like Star Kid is tricking them is just silly because we know Bioware intends for synthesis to be a good thing.  So rather than trying to invent motives just say you hate the endings and call it a day.

Star Kid gave an opinion.  He is doing what anyone with an opinion would do.  It doesn't make Synthesis right nor does it make it wrong.  It is up to you to decide and that is what Bioware intended.  They told us their preference but ultimately gave you other options.

Modifié par remydat, 04 avril 2013 - 01:03 .