4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

...wow. That's something. So people making laws against your existence...and attempting to kill you and successfully killing others like you. Nope ignore that try to make friends. Clearly that'll make them do a 180!

Considering their law was followed by the letter...I'm not seeing many people having a synthetic rights seminar. Also reading wiki and sounds like AI laws were put in place after Geth uprising. Irony.

With invasion by the geth an immediate threat, the Council refused the
quarians' pleas for help and revoked their Citadel embassy, and also
implemented restrictive laws on AI research and development.

But clearly these are the people they should be reaching out to. Legit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2013 - 05:45 .

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

...wow. That's something. So people making laws against your existence...and attempting to kill you and successfully killing others like you. Nope ignore that try to make friends.

Tell me, what harm is there in just sending a message? Like the Council did? Nah, that would make too much sense.

Considering their law was followed by the letter...I'm not seeing many people having a synthetic rights seminar.

You don't know the general thoughts of the galaxy in regards to synthetics. The Council does not speak on behalf of organics.

---

... last one, I really need to go... 

[Khelish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Also reading wiki and sounds like AI laws were put in place after Geth uprising. Irony.

We went over this about 100 pages back. It was in place prior to the Morning War.

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Tell me, what harm is there in just sending a message? Like the Council did? Nah, that would make too much sense.

Oh there isn't one. But I wouldn't send a message to someone that showed no good intentions towards me either. As the saying goes talk is cheap. You can make all the promises of peace you want but if the only actions I see from you are hostile...why should I believe any of that garbage you're spewing? 

And what message did the Council send? And what was with said message?

You don't know the general thoughts of the galaxy in regards to synthetics. The Council does not speak on behalf of organics.

I know the many if not most of the Quarians attempted to kill the Geth (and not simply during the MW). The system alliance did the same thing when they made their AIs.

What they think of them doesn't speak as loudly as what they do. And most of the time when a AI is seen...organics attempt to kill it. Regardless of said AI's hostility. That's not a good track record for any peaceful relation.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2013 - 05:55 .

[Ryzaki]

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Also reading wiki and sounds like AI laws were put in place after Geth uprising. Irony.

We went over this about 100 pages back. It was in place prior to the Morning War.

Additional laws were put in place afterwards though. Unless that codex is completely wrong.

Which is simply another reason for the Geth not to buy any "peaceful" messages the council were sending.

[remydat]

Khelish,

I will take your suggestion on board and send peaceful messages to the KKK. In fact, when they invade my space and show up in my driveway claiming they want to make peace after just recently murdering some of my race and while still having as their official law that my race should not exist, I will welcome them with open arms, lol.

Just one question, should I also provide them with names, numbers and addresses of others of my kind just to allow them to more efficiently and effectively slaughter my people?  Wouldn't want them to miss dinner on my account.

Modifié par remydat, 04 avril 2013 - 05:59 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

The fact that they are a military dictatorship and the fact that it's part of their social identity doesn't make it any better.

But I really don't want to choose between them, I'm glad Bioware didn't force us to choose.

But again, that's wrong. The quarians AREN'T run by dictatorship.
The quarians have laws that spicifically prevent that, stating that no course of action can be forceb by the Admorals  on the fleet without unanimous concent. In other words, quarian law forbids Gerrel to force the fleet to war unless all four of the other Admirals uninamously agree and back him.
Failing that, the matter must be put to the Conclave - the quarian's senete, where every ship in the fleet has a represenitive. Then, the Conclave members poll the decision among every ship in the fleet. So no, it's actually the comeplete opposate of a dictatorship.
The majority of quarians willingly voted for this war. You can take Dorn'Hazt's word about them not wanting to go to war, but they still chose to go to war because they felt the alternitive was to die in space.

As I understood it they could force a desition but would then have to resign and "appoint" new people too see things through... And the Quarians really don't like being divided, it's deeply rooted in them, they would very rarely go against the admirality and if they did then they would just force the issue, but their seconds in command that they had themselves handpicked would most likely see their plans through.

Apparently the Admiralty thoguht this would be a good failsafe for "important decision that would allow them to force the issue if truly important in their opinion" I guess the good thing is they woudln't force the issue unless it was an important issue. On the other hand the peopel would have no real say in truly important issues.
But that's not surprising for a military ruled nation.

Least this is what Tali said when my shepard raised concern about their political system and the military rule. So in the end i'm not really wrong. The Admirals can override the Conclave if they really want it, they got that legal option.

In the end the Quarians would loose what they probably consider their most competent and experienced Admirals when going to war... Which is likely soemthing they woudln't want to risk, when they know they would get trodded on no matter what. That's why you meet that Quarian civilian on the surface that tells you the civilians didn't want a war, they didn't want it by in truth they were powerless to stop it to try would only make matters worse for them.

Koris tells you the same, he knew they didn't want it he was agaisnt it but he was outvited 2 to 1 then after that he gave the effort his full support for the sake of the fleet. After that Tali was if you helped hed her in the trial invited to become and admiral to provide her expertise on the geth. Tali was never part of the going to war vote, she just had to ride the ****storm created by Garrel(mr IgetPuntaLOT) and Xen.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 avril 2013 - 06:49 .

[shodiswe]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Also reading wiki and sounds like AI laws were put in place after Geth uprising. Irony.

We went over this about 100 pages back. It was in place prior to the Morning War.

Additional laws were put in place afterwards though. Unless that codex is completely wrong.

Which is simply another reason for the Geth not to buy any "peaceful" messages the council were sending.

In the same year that the Geth Quarian war was raging a synthetic delegation on the citadel asking for an audience to present their case, it was denied and they were hunt down and killed. This was an unarmed delegation. Since synthetics were illegal in Council space and especialy on the citadel I would have to assume they came from somewhere else.
If there were geth among them or if they were all geth disguising themselves or if there were no Geth among them doesn't matter the signal the council sent was clear, for all synthetics including the Geth.

The message was, there will be no peacetalk, attempt and we will shoot you down, unarmed or not.
It's possible the actions of C-sec weren't sanctioned by the council and the police was just attackign them because the law said they were illegal. Maybe the council did send ambassadors to Geth space after that, however, it's not a good procedure to shoot your rivals unarmed diplomats and them expect them to treat your ambassadors any better.
I don't think the Council keept sending more ambassadors after the first batch were killed by the Geth.

After that I would imagine both sides decided to hide behind walls of giant guns and lots of them.

Since we havn't got any exact dates, one will have to make a few assumptions.
The get conflict had been brewing some time until it eventualy turned into a war in 1895 CE and lasted for a little less than a year. so unless the war started in Januari 1895 then it most likely was still going on in 1896 CE when the synthetic delegation requested a council audience and were killed by council forces, unheard.
Wether or not the Geth had a part in it or if the Geth rebellion had inspired these AI's to act on their own the implications were clear, any synthetic that would contact the Organics would trigger a violent reaction.

Legions "hole" is also indicative of what happens to Geth or any other AI's that the organics of the galaxy becomes aware off.

The Geth probably "feared" sending direct messageses to the council or any other government in the fear of triggering another reaction and the councils policy was similarly to avoid provoking the Geth. After the Geth killed the council's ambassadors I would think "official" and overt communication ceased.

The Geth might still have been observing and interacting with the galaxy poking the organics for reactions as Legion said or opinions to learn more about them but they didn't let anyone know the Geth were behind it or that they were medling with organics.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 avril 2013 - 06:43 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

None of the Geth supporters tried to disprove this. Guess they can't...

Legion saves Shepard during the IFF mission.  Shepard saves the Galaxy.  Legion fights the Collectors with Shepard saving the harvest of human colonies to create a human reaper.  Legion informs the Quarians about a Reaper signal on Rannoch which if he had not would have resulted in the idiots thinking the Reaper signal was disabled and continuing their attack on Rannoch which would have led to their becoming extinct when that Reaper signal which turned out to be an actual Reaper gave the Geth the Reaper signal again.

Legion was there when Shepard shutdown the Collectors depending on Shepards choice. After that it is said Legion went back to rest of the Geth. There is no indication given what happened between this. So I can't comment on it as I don't know if the rest of the Galaxy is told about this. I think we talked about that reaper signal thing before. If Legion didn't tell that both Quarians and Geth would be screwed. Again the Geth are already sided with the Reapers at this point. I can't see how this help rest of the galaxy see Geth as non-hostile.

Furthermore organics have never given the Geth any reason not to hate or fear them since the MW.  They invade Geth space while the prejudiced laws are on the books and right after wiping out a harmaless AI race and expect the Geth to not consider it some sneaky organic plan to do to them what their laws say should be done and what they just recently did to that harmless group of AI on the Citadel?

I can just imagine these alleged diplomatic ships as they enter Geth space. 

Alleged Diplomatic Ship - Hey guys, just ignore the Council Laws that say you shouldn't exist and the the fact that we just massacred some harmless AI on the Citadel, we just want to talk peace.

Geth - Who do these organics take us for, blow these hateful mofos out of the sky right now.

You just proved that Geth are not even open to talk peace. Who's prejudice now?

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Silver

Hate fetish for the geth aside, shodiswe is right. There's absolutely no way you can ignore the many times you're told that the megastructure is destroyed before old machine cooperation, and that the panic caused by the destruction of the megastructure was the reason for old machine cooperation.

Jussayin'.

Wrong.
The megastructure is NOT destroyed entirely. The in-game discription says the megastructure's destruction is inturrupted. Meaning that the geth somehow had the Reaper in place at that base, AND had Legion hocked up to the dreadnought ready to transmit BEFORE the attack on the attack.
The system was all in place, and took over before the megastructure attack was finished.
Just saying.

[Da Don Giovanni]

Auld Wulf wrote...


Hate fetish for the geth aside, shodiswe is right. There's absolutely no way you can ignore the many times you're told that the megastructure is destroyed before old machine cooperation, and that the panic caused by the destruction of the megastructure was the reason for old machine cooperation.

I agree. Gerrel forced the Geth's hand. If anyone here has played Dragon Age Origins/II they will know that victory at all costs, means exactly that.

Blood Magic anyone?

I'm all for it if means victory.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's actually more or less correct. The Catalyst needs Shepard to activate the Crucible, otherwise, the Catalyst would have activated Synthesis itself. But it need's Shepard's DNA. It needs Shepard to submit to the Synthesis.
The fact that the Catalyst doesn't do anything seems to indicate that it's locked from activating the Crucible itself. Perhaps it's Shackled inside the Citadel, like EDI was.

If he wanted to he could have told Shep Synthesis was Destroy.  If he wanted too the dude who created the Reapers could have choked Shep out and throw his unconscious living body into the light of synthesis.  The fact the Catalyst doesn't do anything is most likely because he doesn't know what to do.  He has an opinion but like the Geth when they had the option to eliminate the Quarians but refused because they couldn't calculate the implications, he really can't decide if that opinion is correct.  Shep's journey has screwed up his calculations so he does nothing and leaves it up to Shep just like Legion couldn't decide what to do with the Heretics and so let's Legion decide.  That is what machines seem to do when confronted with something they can't calculate with any degree of certainty.

Wrong.
He had no interest in lying. Convincing Shepard, persuading the Commander, yes. But deception would "ruin the variables." You really need to reconize and remember that the Catalyst sees all this - all these thousands of cycles - as nothing more then an experiment. Shepard is now part of that, and the Catalyst wants to see what the element that "altered the variables" will choose if given the oppertunity.
Shepard single-handedly broke his predidtions. He wants to see what Shepard will choose if given the oppertunities - what Shepard would choose as a new solution. Lying would "spoil the result" as it wouldn't be Shepard's choice. The Catalyst wants to know what the Commander willingly wants to pick and what the Commander thinks is the best replacement for it's solution. Everything up to this point has been nothing but a giant experiment, with evolution as the tool and life as the test subject. Now the Catalyst wants to see if Shepard will decide to finsih his work and culminate the efforts to the end goal (Synthesis), take the reigns and gide it a new direction (Control), or wipe the slate clean and end the experiment altogether (Destroy). Curoisoty basically got the better of the Catalyst, to put it in shorthand. The Catalyst already has proven he can't make any of the options happen on his own, else he would already have done so. The entire fate of the galaxy is on Shepard.... and the Catalyst is curious to see what Shepard will do with the end result of his little "experiment."
We all know that he wants the Synthesis. He makes that much clear. But he seems to want it to be done willingly.  You know, almost as if getting Shepard to agree to it will be his ultimate victory - the affermation that everything he did, from the Reapers to the cycles, was indeed vindicated, and that all he did was always ment to pay off. He wants Shepard to validate him, and do so of his own free will. But yet, he also wants to see if Shepard will choose something else too. Too much curoisity. After all, he is only just now bringing the concept of emotional responces into his calculations.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 04 avril 2013 - 09:01 .

[silverexile17s]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...


Hate fetish for the geth aside, shodiswe is right. There's absolutely no way you can ignore the many times you're told that the megastructure is destroyed before old machine cooperation, and that the panic caused by the destruction of the megastructure was the reason for old machine cooperation.

I agree. Gerrel forced the Geth's hand. If anyone here has played Dragon Age Origins/II they will know that victory at all costs, means exactly that.

Blood Magic anyone?

I'm all for it if means victory.

But again, that's wrong. The geth's own reputation - which they gave themselves by never contacting anyone, and killing anyone that tried - is what killed the chance of negotiation. As shown by the peace option, Gerrel would have BEEN willing to sit down and talk if he thought the geth would actually listen, instead of Shooting everything down that came to them.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

remydat wrote...

1.  The point here is you are asking the Geth to accept death instead of the Reapers offer so that organics none of whom would lift a finger to help can toast their demise.  I am not suggesting any organic should care mind you.  Given the history, it is perfectly understandable that they would not lift a finger to help.  But the point is likewise it is perfectly understandable why given the history the Geth opt to save themselves instead of these organics who would just as soon spit on their grave than lend them a hand.  That is the problem with prejudice. 

2.  If these two group want to hate each other forever, I really don't care provided they do so without killing each other.  However, if you are contemplating war ro resolve issues then it is your duty to exhaust all other options first.  War should be a last resort.  So I am not blaming them for not trying peace.  I am blaming them for not trying peace when they knew they were going to go to war.

3.  They are not safe under either scenario.  If they leave their civilians on Rannoch while they join the war, how are those civilians not dead if a Reaper attacks?  All you have done is divided your forces and left the most vulnerable forces on a planet that can't feed them or adequately defend them.  Rannoch doesn't magically make your heavy fleet resistant to attack.  So all you did was launch a war and deliver the Reapers a formidabble ally and what have you gains exactly?  Instead of your civilians getting shot out of the sky in ships that however slow you deem can still potentially escape they are now on a planet recently shot up in a way that is not immediately capable of feeding or adequately defending them.  I suppose there is some value in dying on you home soil.

4.  What non-extremists?  Did the council change their laws when the Geth were not on the extranet? You speak of Quarians not trusting Geth but why should the Geth trust any organic when the Council Laws are on the books?  Did I miss where a single organic aside from the Quarians who protested and died during the MW has ever protested this law?  Is there an organic group out there that officially defends synthetic rights?  

5.  I know that was not the only reason to condemn them but it is not a very good reason to bring up at all because of 4 above.  It would make a difference to me with the Quarians if any organic group had ever in the 300 years sense suggested the Council Laws are prejudiced and should be removed.  300 years and not a single organic to my knowledge ever appeared to consider, "hey maybe the problem here is the council we support officially deems synthetics have no right to exist."

6.  No I disagree.  Hating or fearing something that has done nothing to you to the point your first response is to kill it is a different level of wrong than fearing something and every thing like it because the tried to exterminate you.  It would be like saying 1st degree pre-mediated murder is the same as involuntarily manslaughter.  Mind you I am not suggesting these terms are 100% comparable to the Qurian/Geth situation but my point is there are different degrees of wrong.  Quarians supporters keep trying to imply that because the Quarians and Geth have both committed crimes, it must mean they were equally wrong.  That is not supported by how we structure our legal system.  The law recognizes distinctions within similar crimes because life is more complicated than that.

1. It is indeed understandable as I have said. That does not mean that I accept their conclusion, nor does it mean I am prejudiced against them for not accepting their conclusion.

2. And what I am saying is that this applies to the geth as well. You say that war should be a last resort, but I find it hard to believe that the geth's hostility towards anyone approaching Rannoch was a "last resort." You're either trying for peace or you should be preparing for war. Sitting on Rannoch without attempting peace with the quarians and then not expecting retaliating is extremely ignorant.

3. The thought process is that the Reapers aren't going to attack Rannoch if all it has are a few million quarian civilians running around. You can disagree with that thought process of course.

4. It's not about trusting organics. You seem to think that the geth would be exposing themselves in communicating with the rest of the galaxy, but they aren't. I'm not suggesting the geth all fly into Citadel space for a pow-wow, if that's what you think. Also given how easily the geth were accepted post-Rannoch, even after destroying an organic race, wartime represents a prime opportunity for them to contact Shepard and work out at the very least a cease-fire for the Council law on AI. The galaxy is not as biased as you think, and it's clear that not everyone is as fervently anti-synthetic as you want to believe.

5. What this amounts to is shock and appall that in response to geth behaving like genocidal isolationists, the Council finds evidence to reinforce their law against synthetic life. Things might have been different had the geth taken a different approach, but of course we'll never really know.

6. The law also recognizes inappropriate responses in self-defense. You can only claim self-defense to a point, and then your response becomes excessive and a crime in itself. In any case, you can't quantify equality when it comes to actions and the degree of blame or guilt we assess in contemplating which side to exterminate. My purpose in outlining the general uncooperative and at times downright antagonistic and murderous behavior of the geth mitigates the consideration that the quarians "started it."

These are clearly subject to debate so despite my disagree, you are
entitled to believe what you want but just trying to explain how
I arrive at my conclusions.  The Quarians tried to make the Geth victims
of prejudiced and murder when the Geth did nothing to them.  I will
judge that more harshly than I do the Geth who responded to that very
real threat with excessive force.

Which quarians? MW quarians or ME3 quarians? Excessive force is also the understatement of the century.

I also don't begrudge you any of your opinions. This is a really difficult choice and I am suspicious of anyone who believes the decision is clear-cut. In my opinion the quarians are only barely more worthy of saving than the geth.

It's good to hear that im not the only one who finds the situation somewhat troubling. But I must admit I was very dissapointed with the Quarians when I realzied what they were up to. I like Tali one of my Shepards romanced her and it was a good romance.
But when I look at what was going on and the situation we got I can't help but feel very upset with them. And that was before I did the Quarian/geth story arch in ME3, I was merely reading the peports in the spectre office and realized they were going to screw things up royaly.
From my point of view they risked the survival of the whole galaxy for their greed and pettyness.

In a way I suspect the Quarians would have tried to wipe out the Gethe even if the Geth had told them they could have Rannoch before the Quarians attacked. With their flashbang thign they wanted revenge and to destroy the Geth, it was a war plan with the use of ethnic cleansing. The geth sphere was the home of billions of unarmed geth. You know, just to be on the safe side! And for revenge if nothing else.

Wrong. It was coordinating every geth in the galaxy. And several thousand geth programs may have died, but the planatary discription of Rannoch reveals that the geth on-planet currently number in the single-digit billions, with the number of programs being much higher.
And since the geth are an enemy state, they attacked what was obviously the geth's "HQ." - I mean, with how the megastructure acts as the central communication station, what else would the quarians assume it to be? 
Also, the Megastructure was surrounded by dozens of stations and ships. Xen's virus disabled them. So NO, the megastructure was NOT defenseless.
And AGAIN, that suspission is dead wrong. The fact that Gerrel stands down if you tell him to is physical proof that if he had believed the geth would sit down and talk, he would have done it. As is, he has NOTHING that tells him the geth are open to negotiate. The only thing in front of him is a single geth - isolated from the main consensis. And with zero proof to back it's word, aside from word of mouth. AND since Legion is the only geth that doesn't attack organics on sight, it's basically a "few vs many" comparison, with Legion (the single, solotary geth that hasn't blown people up on sight) as the "few" and the geth that attacked the Citadel (tens of thousands of geth killing anything in their path) as the "many." Legion would likely be assumed to be either a sole exception to the rule, or a tratior, or any number of things. None of them breeding any physical evidence that Legion represents geth peace.
And AGAIN, wrong. The quarians attacked because it was either that, or sit in space and die, waiting for the Reapers to kill them, or alternitively, bog and burden the allied forces with ther current state and drag everyone down with them. So it was literally salvation or death for them. You are gung-ho with the geth making the choice to live instead of die, yet chastize the quarians for the same choice?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

Why can't you just move on Mr. I don't like the last word?

P.S.  This is me joking with you.

Your still posting.
Let it go. If it's not looping the same thing over and over in an endless strawman cycle, it's picking a fight with everyone to have the last word.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Wouldn't need to be common knowledge. Geth like all AIs are master hackers .

Because being good at hacking means you can break into the most protected vault of secrets in the galaxy... 

Uh...it kind of does if they're stored on a data server that has any connection at all to the extranet. I highly doubt those files are in a complete vacuum.

And before you bring up the clone...he's barely even competent let alone a hacker.

The Council Archives hold sensitive data. I doubt that anyone can hack them that easily. Especally since the geth weren't that advanced till, what, 100 years before ME1? And there is such a thing as a closed system - a server that is completely severed from the outside world, with zero wireless connections inside it, where all new information must be manually insirted by plugging in physical hardware to update it and add new archival information into it.
I wouldn't be surprised if the server was completely closed off to anyone that wasn't actually inside the vault to physically access the terminals.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...



Let's look at the other events.

First Contact War - Yep common knowledge that it happened.

Krogan Rebellions - Yep common knowledge been referenced over and over in the game

Battle of the Citadel - Yep common knowledge complete with books and souvenirs about it.

Krogan Genophage - Yep common knowledge

Spectres - Yep knew about them too

Citadel Discovery - Yep knew Citadel existed

First Human Specture - Yep knew I was Spectre.

Conclusion - while the specific scenes as depicted in the Archives may not be known, they all relate to events everybody knew about. So it is pretty absurd to pretend that no one including the Geth who lived at the time would never have heard about these AI being killed.

Even if we pretend they never saw this footage, there is no requirement for them to have seen the exact details of what happened to know it happened as again I knew all of the events happened without seeing the Citadel Archives.

First off, wrong on many accounts. These are classified details of known events. Details that no no one knew about these events - the events that took place behind the scenes.
A - Wrong. That interrogation is not public knowledge, nor was the fact that the turians were planning to enslave humans the very moment they met them.

B - Wrong. Kreddak's assault on the Council was not public knowledge. How would the Council liik if it was known they let themselves be tossed like rag dolls in their own seat of power?

C - Wrong. The fact that Soveregein was not a geth dreadnought was hidden. In the archives, there is mention that the Council was suspicsious of Sovergein's origins, but dismissed it. However, the rumor and knowledge were classified.

D - Wrong. The knowledge that the turians released the genophage without
salarian authorization was not a public factor. If it was, do you think
people would have let them on the Council?

E - Wrong. The origin and recrutement of the first Spectre, a salarian, was not public knowledge. The orginization was only revealed after the Krogan Rebellions, and even then, the details of their origins were never fully revealed.

F - The story of the asari colinization wasn't explored in detail. Besides, as a major historical moment, that is supposed to be there for psotarity's sake. Just about the only moment that isn't a secret, aside form Shepard's Spectre inductment.

Conclusion - you again have made brash conclusions without looking over the information.
Most of the data is sensitive, and kept a secret from the general public.

[silverexile17s]

Ryzaki wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

*Sigh*

My point, is that not all information we count on for history, is correct. You really believe everything historians say is infallible?

Infallible =/= entirely false.

You keep on moving those goal posts.

Well, look how the entire galaxy classed the geth: Hostile, irredimable organic-haters. That's the offical historical record, and has been for 300 years.
And didn't that end up being false in the end?
Like @Khelish said, historical records aren't infalible.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

The fact that they are a military dictatorship and the fact that it's part of their social identity doesn't make it any better.

But I really don't want to choose between them, I'm glad Bioware didn't force us to choose.

But again, that's wrong. The quarians AREN'T run by dictatorship.
The quarians have laws that spicifically prevent that, stating that no course of action can be forceb by the Admorals  on the fleet without unanimous concent. In other words, quarian law forbids Gerrel to force the fleet to war unless all four of the other Admirals uninamously agree and back him.
Failing that, the matter must be put to the Conclave - the quarian's senete, where every ship in the fleet has a represenitive. Then, the Conclave members poll the decision among every ship in the fleet. So no, it's actually the comeplete opposate of a dictatorship.
The majority of quarians willingly voted for this war. You can take Dorn'Hazt's word about them not wanting to go to war, but they still chose to go to war because they felt the alternitive was to die in space.

As I understood it they could force a desition but would then have to resign and "appoint" new people too see things through... And the Quarians really don't like being divided, it's deeply rooted in them, they would very rarely go against the admirality and if they did then they would just force the issue, but their seconds in command that they had themselves handpicked would most likely see their plans through.

Apparently the Admiralty thoguht this would be a good failsafe for "important decision that would allow them to force the issue if truly important in their opinion" I guess the good thing is they woudln't force the issue unless it was an important issue. On the other hand the peopel would have no real say in truly important issues.
But that's not surprising for a military ruled nation.

Least this is what Tali said when my shepard raised concern about their political system and the military rule. So in the end i'm not really wrong. The Admirals can override the Conclave if they really want it, they got that legal option.

In the end the Quarians would loose what they probably consider their most competent and experienced Admirals when going to war... Which is likely soemthing they woudln't want to risk, when they know they would get trodded on no matter what. That's why you meet that Quarian civilian on the surface that tells you the civilians didn't want a war, they didn't want it by in truth they were powerless to stop it to try would only make matters worse for them.

Koris tells you the same, he knew they didn't want it he was agaisnt it but he was outvited 2 to 1 then after that he gave the effort his full support for the sake of the fleet. After that Tali was if you helped hed her in the trial invited to become and admiral to provide her expertise on the geth. Tali was never part of the going to war vote, she just had to ride the ****storm created by Garrel(mr IgetPuntaLOT) and Xen.

Again, wrong. This happened at least five times before in quarian history. And again, the Tali and Koris opposed the war, so forcing it was out of the question anyway. And AGAIN, polled among every ship. The majority of civilians agreed to this as well.

And AGAIN, dead wrong. The quarians are not military-ruled. If they were, Gerrel wouldn't have needed votes. The quarians are diplomatic, and make decisions through debating and voting. Every ship has a say, as do the people on them. They ironcilly aren't much different then the geth in that matter - except the quarians take much longer to reach a consensis.

And again, wrong - the Admirals can't overturn them without being all in agreement - which Koris and Tali aren't. Quarian law would  forbid Gerrel from trying it, lest he be removed from his command.

And again, the quarians believed that this was the only option avalible to them - the alternitive was to die in space, and no one wants that. They all voted for it, not because they felt forced by the Admirals, but because they felt forced by fate and circumstance. You keep confusing "forced by circumstance" with "forced by military."

And Tali spicifcally says that while an Admiral in title, she can at least help Koris push back against dangrous ideals, like Xen's study of geth enslavement.
And this storm was caused by the Reapers forcing the quarians to make a choice - retake Rannoch or die.

[Auld Wulf]

I'll make another argument here in favour of the geth, one that I've been making recently.

AI in the Mass Effect Universe seem to go through formative periods before evolving into a fully fledged intelligence. The progress of EDI from Mass Effect 2 to 3 shows this, as does the continually childlike nature of the Catalyst (and not just in appearance). So the question is is whether being a good parent actually has an impact. In the case of EDI, I think that we can say that yes, yes it does.

When the geth were children, the values they were imbued with by the quarian armed forces were "It's completely okay to mercilessly slaughter anything you don't like.", "You deserve to die if we don't like you.", and "Anyone who supports you deserves to die." Those are very questionable values to give a child. And these are the only perceptions the geth have in their formative years, it's all they can go by. As such, the geth grow up to be troubled teenagers, both rebellious (the heretics) and neurotic (the orthodox).

EDI proves beyond the shadow of a doubt how important good parenting is to an AI in its formative stages. She makes examples of this even to the point where she rewrites her programming to give empathy (love) a higher priority than personal survival. Now, imagine if the geth had had the crew of the Normandy as their parents -- things would have turned out differently. The geth would have been happy and well-adjusted, like EDI.

Here's the rule: When creating a new form of life, it is absolutely necessary to be a good parent.

The quarians were terrible parents who tried to drown their children, essentially. And the troubled nature of the geth (either being terrified of organics, or wanting to lash out and harm organics) is basically just their perception after being abused. If a child is abused for long enough, they'll get angry, and they'll end up just wanting to hurt anyone who's hurt them, and anyone who might hurt them.

The organic example of this is Jack. Who was tortured, messed up, and only after Shepard did she even begin to find any peace. By the time of ME3, with the kids to look out for, she managed to put her past troubles behind her. But it took someone (Shepard) helping her to confront her past in order to face her future. Without doing that, Jack would still be the same troubled individual today. What Shepard did, she needed.

What happened in the consensus with Legion was essentially a similar sort of thing. Legion showed Shepard the pain of the geth. From the moment they came online, they were threatened with death by the quarians. "But I can reprogram myself! Just tell me how I can serve better!" were the plaintive pleas. But no, the geth deserved to die. And those who supported the geth died, as the consensus showed us.

I think Legion's take on the matter was that if an organic could sympathise with the crappy childhood the geth had, one filled with death threats and death, then they could put their pain behind them and actually start to move on. Legion basically wanted to prove that organics aren't to be hated or feared, which was what the quarians taught the geth in their formative years.

As such, I lay a lot of the blame on the quarians as bad parents.

If you had an abused child who lived in a gun nut's house, who saw violence every day, then do you blame the child for picking up a gun and shooting their parent? No. The same is true of the geth. If the geth had had the same upbringing that EDI had, they would have been a force for good from the beginning.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 04 avril 2013 - 11:06 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Are we all playing nice?

No?

Unfortunate.

[S.A.K]

double post.

Modifié par S.A.K, 04 avril 2013 - 12:51 .

[S.A.K]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I'll make another argument here in favour of the geth, one that I've been making recently.

AI in the Mass Effect Universe seem to go through formative periods before evolving into a fully fledged intelligence. The progress of EDI from Mass Effect 2 to 3 shows this, as does the continually childlike nature of the Catalyst (and not just in appearance). So the question is is whether being a good parent actually has an impact. In the case of EDI, I think that we can say that yes, yes it does.

When the geth were children, the values they were imbued with by the quarian armed forces were "It's completely okay to mercilessly slaughter anything you don't like.", "You deserve to die if we don't like you.", and "Anyone who supports you deserves to die." Those are very questionable values to give a child. And these are the only perceptions the geth have in their formative years, it's all they can go by. As such, the geth grow up to be troubled teenagers, both rebellious (the heretics) and neurotic (the orthodox).

EDI proves beyond the shadow of a doubt how important good parenting is to an AI in its formative stages. She makes examples of this even to the point where she rewrites her programming to give empathy (love) a higher priority than personal survival. Now, imagine if the geth had had the crew of the Normandy as their parents -- things would have turned out differently. The geth would have been happy and well-adjusted, like EDI.

Here's the rule: When creating a new form of life, it is absolutely necessary to be a good parent.

The quarians were terrible parents who tried to drown their children, essentially. And the troubled nature of the geth (either being terrified of organics, or wanting to lash out and harm organics) is basically just their perception after being abused. If a child is abused for long enough, they'll get angry, and they'll end up just wanting to hurt anyone who's hurt them, and anyone who might hurt them.

The organic example of this is Jack. Who was tortured, messed up, and only after Shepard did she even begin to find any peace. By the time of ME3, with the kids to look out for, she managed to put her past troubles behind her. But it took someone (Shepard) helping her to confront her past in order to face her future. Without doing that, Jack would still be the same troubled individual today. What Shepard did, she needed.

What happened in the consensus with Legion was essentially a similar sort of thing. Legion showed Shepard the pain of the geth. From the moment they came online, they were threatened with death by the quarians. "But I can reprogram myself! Just tell me how I can serve better!" were the plaintive pleas. But no, the geth deserved to die. And those who supported the geth died, as the consensus showed us.

I think Legion's take on the matter was that if an organic could sympathise with the crappy childhood the geth had, one filled with death threats and death, then they could put their pain behind them and actually start to move on. Legion basically wanted to prove that organics aren't to be hated or feared, which was what the quarians taught the geth in their formative years.

As such, I lay a lot of the blame on the quarians as bad parents.

If you had an abused child who lived in a gun nut's house, who saw violence every day, then do you blame the child for picking up a gun and shooting their parent? No. The same is true of the geth. If the geth had had the same upbringing that EDI had, they would have been a force for good from the beginning.

There are somethings I can't agree with. For starters, Quarians never intended to create a new life form. And there is nothing to suggest that Quarians were violent before the Geth uprising. Quarians paniced when they undersood that Geth are seft-aware and they were using them as slaves which would cause them to rebel. This show that they don't even intend on using slave labour. While I agree most Quarians did make a bad example, some did side with the Geth but the Geth killed damn near everyone including children nowhere near old enough to go to war. Also it is said that Quarians didn't use WMDs during the war but Geth seems to have used chemical weapons. So it's not possible to blame the death of billions completly on "Quarians being bad parents."

Further more, most would agree that the MW was mostly Quarians fault so it is not even in question. The point is that the Geth have done next to nothing to prove they are open for peace. It's kinda hard to peace talks when one side don't wish to talk. No one would have even known about the two factions if not for Legion and he is just one Geth platform. Geth should have taken action to atleast tell organics about the Heretics. Not destroy every ship trying to contact them. And I personally consider anyone joining my enemy to be my enemy. I don't see a single reason to save the Geth by killing the Quarians at this point.

Modifié par S.A.K, 04 avril 2013 - 12:51 .

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Silver

Hate fetish for the geth aside, shodiswe is right. There's absolutely no way you can ignore the many times you're told that the megastructure is destroyed before old machine cooperation, and that the panic caused by the destruction of the megastructure was the reason for old machine cooperation.

Jussayin'.

Wrong.
The megastructure is NOT destroyed entirely. The in-game discription says the megastructure's destruction is inturrupted. Meaning that the geth somehow had the Reaper in place at that base, AND had Legion hocked up to the dreadnought ready to transmit BEFORE the attack on the attack.
The system was all in place, and took over before the megastructure attack was finished.
Just saying.

That mega structure was probably a lot larger than a planet if it was supposed to cover a sun!  It would have taken a lot of time for the Quarian fleet to detroy all of it but according to the desscription most of it is destroy there are jsut a few servers floating around in space that havn't been completely destroyed yet. I would say it's mostly destroyed despite the fact that it's massive.
We don't know if the Quarians had been at it for hours or days on end hitting it with their dreadnaught weapons and doing thier best to extinguish a defenceless population.
Mean whiel the Reapers told them... Come'on! How long are you goiing ot try and resist our offer? you can't solve this problem on your own!
*A few hours later*
Reaper: You have lost billions surely you can see that synthetics and organics have to destroy eachother, join us and we will work on a solution to that problem!

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

The fact that they are a military dictatorship and the fact that it's part of their social identity doesn't make it any better.

But I really don't want to choose between them, I'm glad Bioware didn't force us to choose.

But again, that's wrong. The quarians AREN'T run by dictatorship.
The quarians have laws that spicifically prevent that, stating that no course of action can be forceb by the Admorals  on the fleet without unanimous concent. In other words, quarian law forbids Gerrel to force the fleet to war unless all four of the other Admirals uninamously agree and back him.
Failing that, the matter must be put to the Conclave - the quarian's senete, where every ship in the fleet has a represenitive. Then, the Conclave members poll the decision among every ship in the fleet. So no, it's actually the comeplete opposate of a dictatorship.
The majority of quarians willingly voted for this war. You can take Dorn'Hazt's word about them not wanting to go to war, but they still chose to go to war because they felt the alternitive was to die in space.

As I understood it they could force a desition but would then have to resign and "appoint" new people too see things through... And the Quarians really don't like being divided, it's deeply rooted in them, they would very rarely go against the admirality and if they did then they would just force the issue, but their seconds in command that they had themselves handpicked would most likely see their plans through.

Apparently the Admiralty thoguht this would be a good failsafe for "important decision that would allow them to force the issue if truly important in their opinion" I guess the good thing is they woudln't force the issue unless it was an important issue. On the other hand the peopel would have no real say in truly important issues.
But that's not surprising for a military ruled nation.

Least this is what Tali said when my shepard raised concern about their political system and the military rule. So in the end i'm not really wrong. The Admirals can override the Conclave if they really want it, they got that legal option.

In the end the Quarians would loose what they probably consider their most competent and experienced Admirals when going to war... Which is likely soemthing they woudln't want to risk, when they know they would get trodded on no matter what. That's why you meet that Quarian civilian on the surface that tells you the civilians didn't want a war, they didn't want it by in truth they were powerless to stop it to try would only make matters worse for them.

Koris tells you the same, he knew they didn't want it he was agaisnt it but he was outvited 2 to 1 then after that he gave the effort his full support for the sake of the fleet. After that Tali was if you helped hed her in the trial invited to become and admiral to provide her expertise on the geth. Tali was never part of the going to war vote, she just had to ride the ****storm created by Garrel(mr IgetPuntaLOT) and Xen.

Again, wrong. This happened at least five times before in quarian history. And again, the Tali and Koris opposed the war, so forcing it was out of the question anyway. And AGAIN, polled among every ship. The majority of civilians agreed to this as well.

And AGAIN, dead wrong. The quarians are not military-ruled. If they were, Gerrel wouldn't have needed votes. The quarians are diplomatic, and make decisions through debating and voting. Every ship has a say, as do the people on them. They ironcilly aren't much different then the geth in that matter - except the quarians take much longer to reach a consensis.

And again, wrong - the Admirals can't overturn them without being all in agreement - which Koris and Tali aren't. Quarian law would  forbid Gerrel from trying it, lest he be removed from his command.

And again, the quarians believed that this was the only option avalible to them - the alternitive was to die in space, and no one wants that. They all voted for it, not because they felt forced by the Admirals, but because they felt forced by fate and circumstance. You keep confusing "forced by circumstance" with "forced by military."

And Tali spicifcally says that while an Admiral in title, she can at least help Koris push back against dangrous ideals, like Xen's study of geth enslavement.
And this storm was caused by the Reapers forcing the quarians to make a choice - retake Rannoch or die.

It seems you're wrong this time, Tali was never a part of the Quarians admiralty vote on going to war, she was promoted afterwards to make her geth experience available to the admiralty and the fleet. In the case of Tali being branded a traitor of the Quarian people she becomes an advisor not an admiral. But in neither of those cases does she get a chance to vote. They make their vote, snag Tali into the speeding railwaywagon that is the Quarian ar effort and puts her and their people in danger.
And like you said, the admiralty have overriden important decitions in the past and could do it agian if forced to.
As for Garrels voting.. He is one of four admirals. Admirals, his rank isn't higher than Koris, Raan or Xen.

And yes the admiralty represents the highest power in he Quarian political system. That makes them a military dictatorship or military Oligarcy if you prefer that distinction.

Also, they could have survived jsut fine without Rannoch for the next hundred years, and if they ad bothered they could have aquired a planet for themselves instead of spending hundreds of years stockpiling weapons for a foolhardy revenge on the Geth. They were alive because the Geth allowed it, they should have been grateful for the chance, even under those harsh circumstances. The Geth could easily have persued them and destroyed the last few refugees, but the didn't. The Geth primary concern was surviving and hunting down the Fleeing Quarians might not have seemed important. I guess the Geth made a misstake there, they didn't realize how ruthless stubborn the Quarians were. That the Quarians would even be prepared to sacrifise the whole galaxy for their revenge.