4712 réponses à ce sujet

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Legion was there when Shepard shutdown the Collectors depending on Shepards choice. After that it is said Legion went back to rest of the Geth. There is no indication given what happened between this. So I can't comment on it as I don't know if the rest of the Galaxy is told about this. I think we talked about that reaper signal thing before. If Legion didn't tell that both Quarians and Geth would be screwed. Again the Geth are already sided with the Reapers at this point. I can't see how this help rest of the galaxy see Geth as non-hostile.
You just proved that Geth are not even open to talk peace. Who's prejudice now?

You asked positives regarding what the Geth have done.  I told you.  We know the Quarians know because the they meet Legion and are told by Shepard the history.  Also, I don't see what the Quarians did to help society that also did not help themselves so why are we making a distinction here for the Geth?

Give me one reason why the Geth should trust these ships?  It's can't be because they say they come in peace because you are saying organics have no reason to believe the Geth want peace so why would the Geth believe it when organics say it?  Actions speak louder than words.  You basically want the Geth to take organics at their word but then say organics should not take the Geth at their word.  Sorry when my enemy still says I shouldn't exist and when they just exterminated a harmless AI race and now they invade my space claiming peace, I don't know how you expect the Geth to believe it.  Just like are you not the one arguing that after what the heretics did the Quarians and the galaxy should not trust the rest of the Geth?  Sounds like a double standard to me.

If you want to talk then get rid of the laws and don't slaughter innocent organics and then enter Geth space.  For all the Geth know these claims of peace are just so organics can scout the area in advance of an attack by that massive fleet they have sitting just outside of Geth space. 

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Your still posting.
Let it go. If it's not looping the same thing over and over in an endless strawman cycle, it's picking a fight with everyone to have the last word.

Nope as you can see once Khelish stopped posting about it, I did as well.  He is the one claiming I want the last word so he should just stop posting if he does not want the same thing.  When he did, it was over.

So why are you bringing this back up again.  Let it go silver.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

First off, wrong on many accounts. These are classified details of known events. Details that no no one knew about these events - the events that took place behind the scenes.
A - Wrong. That interrogation is not public knowledge, nor was the fact that the turians were planning to enslave humans the very moment they met them.

B - Wrong. Kreddak's assault on the Council was not public knowledge. How would the Council liik if it was known they let themselves be tossed like rag dolls in their own seat of power?

C - Wrong. The fact that Soveregein was not a geth dreadnought was hidden. In the archives, there is mention that the Council was suspicsious of Sovergein's origins, but dismissed it. However, the rumor and knowledge were classified.

D - Wrong. The knowledge that the turians released the genophage without
salarian authorization was not a public factor. If it was, do you think
people would have let them on the Council?

E - Wrong. The origin and recrutement of the first Spectre, a salarian, was not public knowledge. The orginization was only revealed after the Krogan Rebellions, and even then, the details of their origins were never fully revealed.

F - The story of the asari colinization wasn't explored in detail. Besides, as a major historical moment, that is supposed to be there for psotarity's sake. Just about the only moment that isn't a secret, aside form Shepard's Spectre inductment.

Conclusion - you again have made brash conclusions without looking over the information.
Most of the data is sensitive, and kept a secret from the general public.

Clearly you did not read my post.  I said that while the specific details of these events may not have been known, we all know about these events.  There is not a single event here that is not part of a larger event that is common knowledge.  I don't need to see these specific scenes to know these events existed.

Modifié par remydat, 04 avril 2013 - 03:06 .

[shodiswe]

The Geth have every reason to fear and distrust organics, organics killed the last synthetics that tried to talk to the council, the Quarians tried to kill all Geth in what became the Mourning War.

And together the organics have fleet and military assets that greatly outnumbers everyhing the Geth have, they fear that provoking the organics will bring doom down upon them, better not to attract attention to themselves. Also 300 years might not seem like a lot of time for a Geth, time is different from their perspective, it's like comparing a humans concept of time to that of an Asari, and Geth could easily outlive an Asari barring accidents, murder or assasination.

To them it might not seem like an excessively long time to let tempers cool and studdy their problem.

The Reapers have studdied the synthetic organic conflit for maybe a billion years, by that comparison the geth have barely had had time to define what truly happend. The difference here is that the Catalyt and the Reaeprs are programed to belive the Leviathans truth. The Geth are trying to understand it from scratch, both the problem and organics in general.

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

First off, wrong on many accounts. These are classified details of known events. Details that no no one knew about these events - the events that took place behind the scenes.
A - Wrong. That interrogation is not public knowledge, nor was the fact that the turians were planning to enslave humans the very moment they met them.

B - Wrong. Kreddak's assault on the Council was not public knowledge. How would the Council liik if it was known they let themselves be tossed like rag dolls in their own seat of power?

C - Wrong. The fact that Soveregein was not a geth dreadnought was hidden. In the archives, there is mention that the Council was suspicsious of Sovergein's origins, but dismissed it. However, the rumor and knowledge were classified.

D - Wrong. The knowledge that the turians released the genophage without
salarian authorization was not a public factor. If it was, do you think
people would have let them on the Council?

E - Wrong. The origin and recrutement of the first Spectre, a salarian, was not public knowledge. The orginization was only revealed after the Krogan Rebellions, and even then, the details of their origins were never fully revealed.

F - The story of the asari colinization wasn't explored in detail. Besides, as a major historical moment, that is supposed to be there for psotarity's sake. Just about the only moment that isn't a secret, aside form Shepard's Spectre inductment.

Conclusion - you again have made brash conclusions without looking over the information.
Most of the data is sensitive, and kept a secret from the general public.

Clearly you did not read my post.  I said that while the specific details of these events may not have been known, we all know about these events.  There is not a single event here that is not part of a larger event that is common knowledge.  I don't need to see these specific scenes to know these events existed.

Yes, I think it was mentioned somewhere else that synthetics were killed on the citadel around the time of legislation regarding AI's and their status as illegal.

What I find even more troubling is that the council didn't even bother to findout what the Synthetics wanted before they killed them of. Even if you are certain that you are enemies it helps you fight them if you know your enemy. Know your enemy, but they were to foolish to even find out what they could learn about these synthetics that had requested an audience while the Quarians were being driven off Rannoch. It wouldn't surprise me if the Quarian ambassador was somehow involved in that "incident".

It would seem that one game series or game that would fit well with the mass effect trilogy would be one that covers the time before the Mourning war really kicked off and up until it's conclusion. It would probably be a very thrilling interesting experience aswell as illuminating. It would likely make for a really nice prequel. And people would get to see Rannoch before the Mourning war and the Quarians of old aswell as the Geth and their struggle.
Maybe featuring Legion who is an agricultural unit who lives with a farming family with a girl in the family that's very much like Tali and very talend with technology. She upgrades Legion repetedly to make it more capable of helping the family with household choores and the farm, aswell as hang out and play games because she hasn't got a lot of friends. Then as the game goes on things start getting nasty military patrols are makign regular visit to ensure all "geth units" are "legal", they inspect the other geth units but Legion is hid by the family because they are concerned about their little girls upgrades to this particular Geth.

Then one day upon inspection one of the unmodified geths asks a question posed by Legion at one piont and then in panic the Quarian military officers start killing Legions friends and a heated argument between the family of farmers and the military commanding officer, calling them geth sympatisers.

Legion jumps out of hiding, snatches a sniperrifle from a soldier he had managed to take by surprise and start defending his "brothers".

The military sends reinforcements that kills the family and Legions Geth friends. Legion is forced on the run, end of game 1 of the Mourning war.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 avril 2013 - 03:32 .

[Da Don Giovanni]

Ryzaki

You keep on moving those goal posts.

Lolololx1,000,000

[remydat]

The problem with doing a Morning War game is it will be a sh*t storm. Anything that is too favorable to the Geth will have Quarian fanatics up in arms and anything that is too favorable to the Quarians will have the Geth fanatics up in arms.

For example, if the Geth are not shown putting bullets in kids heads or if they are shown as rebelling because their Quarians supportoers were getting killed, the Quarians fanatics will start protesting out at Bioware. Likewise if you do show the Geth putting bullets in kids heads then the Geth fanatics will claim that Bioware is basically making the Geth look bad because they are organic.

It's a minefield. It would be incredibly hard to find the right balance and you are almost guaranteed to p**s off 50% of your fans one way or another.

Modifié par remydat, 04 avril 2013 - 03:53 .

[Stigweird85]

Haven't read through all posts but my avatar probably gives an indication on this.

As much as Artifical life can evolve and adapt, 1s and 0s will never be truly sentient. Artifical life will also be constrained to programming in one form or another. A human(or any other species) could one day decide to dress and act as a lemon or to be a serial killer with no causal link. A machine no matter how advanced will never be able mimick human crazy/ingunity or stupidity

In context the Quarians who started the war made the wrong decision as caused their own problems but they suffered from their actions. While you can learn from your elders and their mistakes you shouldn't have to suffer because of them.

For example in recent history - imho(which you may disagree with) Slavery, you should not be deemed a slaver or punished for being in family who once owned or employeed slaves 200 years ago. If you wish to make amends for history that is your choice but you should not be condemmed by it.

More recent history, do we condemn all Germans because of the actions of the elder generation in the wars? No we don't

[Ryzaki]

If they keep on enslaving people or trying to kill the jews hell yeah I'll condemn them for it. Don't keep bullheadly repeating your ancestors mistakes. That makes you an idiot.

The Quarians didn't stop. They kept antagonizing the geth.

If they had left well enough alone I wouldn't have cared.

They started a fight, got their asses kicked, and continued to start more fights when they thought they could win.

Alas in my game they kept up that foolishness til it got them all killed.

So yeah I don't blame the present ones for the morning war (the ones that started that mess are probably all dead). I do blame them for ME3 crapola.

Brilliant idea making another enemy when you have an advancing stronger one looming above you. Absolute brilliance.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2013 - 05:01 .

[shodiswe]

One problem is that the Quarians didn't seem to learn. One reason could be that most of the people who managed to escape where the ones with military grade suits and weapons and access to ships.
We can all guess what they told their children.

[Auld Wulf]

@Ryzaki

Exactly.

In regards to what you've said, all other arguments prove to be hollow because "Hey, Legion is right here on the Normandy with you guys. Instead of perpetrating another war, Gerrel, do you think you could maybe... TALK TO IT?"

I don't blame the geth for not talking much because, as I said, the quarians made them as neurotic as hell. Even Legion is still scared of organics to a degree (though not scared of Shepard, as Legion appreciates Shepard's sense of ethics). Maybe if they just tried talking to the geth, right there on the Normandy, they wouldn't have even had to push their liveships-with-guns-strapped-to-them into combat.

That they didn't talk to Legion and that they still wanted to run straight into a war with the geth is just... stupid.

[Khelish]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Ryzaki

Exactly.

In regards to what you've said, all other arguments prove to be hollow because "Hey, Legion is right here on the Normandy with you guys. Instead of perpetrating another war, Gerrel, do you think you could maybe... TALK TO IT?"

Legion makes zero effort to make peace in that part as well. This works both ways.

I don't blame the geth for not talking much because, as I said, the quarians made them as neurotic as hell.

You do realize that the Geth were not a bunch of ignorant robots in the Morning War, right? They were not all seperated with Varren level smarts... The Geth used their increased proximity to increase their intelligence. They would not have kicked the Quarians off of the worlds otherwise.

You all love to play the "Oh, them poor geth had no idea right from wrong", when they clearly did, as seen by the consensus video. Both before and after the Morning War, the Geth knew what they were doing.

Even Legion is still scared of organics to a degree (though not scared of Shepard, as Legion appreciates Shepard's sense of ethics).

Any proof to back that up? 

Maybe if they just tried talking to the geth, right there on the Normandy, they wouldn't have even had to push their liveships-with-guns-strapped-to-them into combat.

Again, Legion made zero mention of wanting peace. All that he ever says, is that both need to help if there is to be peace. Gee Legion, you're a bright bulb...

Why couldn't Legion start with "Can we have peace?"

That they didn't talk to Legion and that they still wanted to run straight into a war with the geth is just... stupid.

These peace talks require both parties as Legion said. Both the Quarians and the Geth need to talk, not just one. I put some of the blame on Legion for not mentioning anything, considering the Geth have sat around for 300 years doing nothing but add to the Reaper problem.

The Geth could have stopped the Heretics, they didn't. The Geth didn't need to kill billions of people in Tikkun, they did anyway. The Geth had their chance, I let them pay for their mistakes.

[Da Don Giovanni]

Ryzaki wrote...

If someone like Hitler showed up again, united the UK under a Fourth Reich and decided to exterminate the Jews, it would be the equivalent of the ME3 war the Quarians started.

Xen is your Hitler pretty much. Claudia Black (Xen/Morrigan Voice Actor) can tell me what to do anytime however, so looks like the Geth can be experimented on.

Ultimately however, a Geth Prime is more useful to me than Xen/Tali/Gerrel/Quarian Flotilla.

Bon Voyage Gerrel/Xen/Tali/Flotilla.

Hello army of loyal Primes!

[Khelish]

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Hello army of loyal Primes!

Til they run to the Reapers... 

Again... 

[Argolas]

Khelish wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Hello army of loyal Primes!

Til they run to the Reapers... 

Again... 

Come on, they've only be rewritten 4 times by then, that does not mean anything

[S.A.K]

Seems like either side had zero reason to trust the other. Damn that sucks:mellow:

[Ryzaki]

Argolas wrote...

Khelish wrote...

Da Don Giovanni wrote...

Hello army of loyal Primes!

Til they run to the Reapers... 

Again... 

Come on, they've only be rewritten 4 times by then, that does not mean anything

Mine only been overritten twice. Once by the Reapers, another time undoing that.

Geth heretics were blown to bits

[S.A.K]

Ryzaki wrote...


Mine only been overritten twice. Once by the Reapers, another time undoing that.

Geth heretics were blown to bits

By now, re-written heretics must be like "it was bad to have reaper tech before and now it's good? Make up your minds b*tches!!!"

149 pages later, it still looks like there isn't enough evidence on either side to change anyone's original preference. It might come down to which character you like best. Tali or Legion...

Well good luck saving Legion:devil:

[Rip504]

150 Pages of trying to justify and take the moral high ground, when deciding which race you will commit genocide on? Lol

[remydat]

I don't commit genocide at all againts the Quarians. I tell Tali or Raan to tell the Quarians to stop firing at defenseless Geth. Their inability to communicate that simple message and Gherel's inability to refuse to question their order or stop trying to kill a defenseless enemy is what dooms their people.

The solution clearly is to elect and promote smarter Admirals who can carry out basic orders appropriately.  I mean Larry, Moe and Curly could have gotten that right.

Modifié par remydat, 04 avril 2013 - 08:14 .

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

I commit genocide againts the Quarians.

Yet When I tell them to stop,they stop.

[Argolas]

Rip504 wrote...

150 Pages of trying to justify and take the moral high ground, when deciding which race you will commit genocide on? Lol

That's not genocide from either side.

- The Quarians don't attack the Geth because they are Geth, they attack them because they sit on Rannoch, the only suitable planet for them to live on.

- The Geth don't fight the Quarians because they are Quarians, they fight them because they are invading.

- Shepard does not do anything other than allowing Legion to upload the Reaper code or not, the latter involves killing Legion but that's his own fault.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

You do realize that the Geth were not a bunch of ignorant robots in the Morning War, right? They were not all seperated with Varren level smarts... The Geth used their increased proximity to increase their intelligence. They would not have kicked the Quarians off of the worlds otherwise.

You all love to play the "Oh, them poor geth had no idea right from wrong", when they clearly did, as seen by the consensus video. Both before and after the Morning War, the Geth knew what they were doing.

Knowledge and morality are two entirely different things.  It could be argued man as a species frequently acquired knowledge before they possessed the morality to apply that knowledge appropriately.

We all know the Geth had the ability to acquire knowledge.  There is no clear cut proof they possessed the morality to wield that knowledge appropriately.  EDI hints at this when she has a conversation with Shep and notes how the Geth devoted processing power to collective ideas while EDI due to the attachments she formed devoted processing power to individuality.  EDI can do that because she is not under immediate threat and she has positive relationships with organics.  

The Geth started out with concern for individuals as we see in the server mission.  They were concerned for their creators who protested for them.  However over time with the threat to their existence growing more extreme, they did what most people do in that situation, they banded together.  That meant diverting and focusing all their processing power to survival which in turn pushed them more towards collective ideas ie we must survive together or collectively.  

The first hints of morality was at the end of the MW when they had the ability to wipe the Quarians from existence but then choose not to because they could not calculate the repercussions of such an action.  To me that is synthetic speak suggesting that with the threat now over they could devote processing power to considering things beyond their collective survival.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Yet When I tell them to stop,they stop.

If you want to talk about the peace option then you are in the wrong thread.  In the game, the only reason one of these groups has to die is because the Quarians refuse to stand down.  Not the Geth.  The Quarians.  And they refuse to stand down mainly because the 3 stooges they call Admirals can't communicate.

Modifié par remydat, 04 avril 2013 - 08:31 .