4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

That only happens "IF" Shepard allows it to.

Modifié par Rip504, 04 avril 2013 - 08:37 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Mine only been overritten twice. Once by the Reapers, another time undoing that.

Geth heretics were blown to bits

So you deliberately chose the less powerful side?

Of course, we all know that organics are just dust in the solar wind.

Not like the cute geth or the totally awesome, cool, and brotastic Reapers....


We I are am not Harbinger.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 04 avril 2013 - 09:01 .

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

That only happens "IF" Shepard allows it to.

Not sure your point.  The OP doesn't give us the option of Shep talking them down.  In the game most of us obviously choose peace.  

Do you think when the president gives an order to a general, he has to sit there and babysit to make sure the order is carried out?  Tali or Raan were told by Shep to tell Gherel to stand down.  If they are too silly to tell him the Geth have Reaper Code or Gherel is too silly to ask why he is being told to stand down, they die because of their own incompetence and failure to communicate.  This is not preschool.  This is war.  If you can't communicate to save your race from extinction then you can't be counted in this war.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

That only happens "IF" Shepard allows it to.

Not sure your point.  The OP doesn't give us the option of Shep talking them down.  In the game most of us obviously choose peace.  

Do you think when the president gives an order to a general, he has to sit there and babysit to make sure the order is carried out?  Tali or Raan were told by Shep to tell Gherel to stand down.  If they are too silly to tell him the Geth have Reaper Code or Gherel is too silly to ask why he is being told to stand down, they die because of their own incompetence and failure to communicate.  This is not preschool.  This is war.  If you can't communicate to save your race from extinction then you can't be counted in this war.

"They" die because Shepard allows it. The Quarians also kill a Reaper.  I am not talking about talking them down.
Do I care about a "president" or a "general"? Shepard knows the outcome of both choices available. Let Legion upload the Code and the Quarians die. Stop Legion from uploading the code and the Geth die. Shepard chooses which force lives and dies in this scenario. You tell me this is not about talking them down,then why do you keep bringing up the failed attempt to "talk them down"? Shepard's choice(yours) directly effects the outcome and survival for one of these two races. No matter the reasoning you use,Shepard makes a choice resulting in the death of one of the two.

Ps. The Quarians kill a Reaper to disable the Reaper Code in order to save their race from extinction. Shepard allows Legion to restore the Reaper code. Shepard is not an Admiral. The admirals communicate on how to shut down this Reaper signal to save their race from extinction. If Gerrel wipes out the Geth,the Geth can NOT wipe out his race. Shepard changes the variables. The Geth have failed to "communicate" for 300 years,I guess I should not count them in this war.  W.e this is pointless as the Admirals can communicate to save their race. Your point is invalid.

"If" speculation were to happen,this speculation would become the outcome. Ok:huh:

Point. Shepard (you) choose who lives and dies based on your personal preference.

Modifié par Rip504, 04 avril 2013 - 10:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Mine only been overritten twice. Once by the Reapers, another time undoing that.

Geth heretics were blown to bits

So you deliberately chose the less powerful side?

To be honest I find the idea that the Quarians become more powerful than the Geth because you destroyed the heretics laughably silly. Especially since the Geth and Heretics have been estranged for years and the Geth in preparation for the Reaper war should've been building dreadnaughts and weapons with impunity. (since they have no treaties to be bothered with). Their ships should also be more advanced. Not suitable for organic use sure but it wouldn't need to be.

WA values are downright dumb at times. So no I don't let that influence my decisions. For example you have Rachni workers being worth a mere 100.

S.A.K wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Mine only been overritten twice. Once by the Reapers, another time undoing that.

Geth heretics were blown to bits [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/policeman.png[/smilie]

By
now, re-written heretics must be like "it was bad to have reaper tech
before and now it's good? Make up your minds b*tches!!!"

149
pages later, it still looks like there isn't enough evidence on either
side to change anyone's original preference. It might come down to which
character you like best. Tali or Legion...

Well good luck saving Legion[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/devil.png[/smilie]

LOL poor heretics.

Well they're both dead in my game. :innocent: Least Legion died facing death valiantly. Tali just went the suckers way out.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 avril 2013 - 10:21 .

[Auld Wulf]

So it comes down to sexual objectification and fanboy drooling versus intellectual appreciation?

I mean, that is the point that was just made. Okay, I feel oddly reaffirmed.

[Ryzaki]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

 Why are we even using that scene as evidence for anything? It's completely contrived and illogical.

There is literally zero reason for why Tali/Raan doesn't tell Gerrel why he should pull back. You cant just chalk it up to indecisiveness or being stupid or whatever because their entire race is at stake here, no sane person would deliberately put their species at risk like that. Did Gerrel owe them money or something? If they were that desperate they could even just make up a story, like the Geth have a Death Star and it actually work. And didn't Tali almost kill Legion on the off chance his data will give the Geth the upper hand? I'd expect Raan to be even less hesitant to stop Legion, he's not her friend (Let alone the Geth VI). It just makes characters act like idiots for no reason other than having a cheap dillema. 

For that matter, why doesn't Shepard  try to tell Gerrel himself, even if you havent done XYZ in order for peace? Wouldn't he at least try to gain the most powerful fleet in the galaxy as an ally, or does he really just give up that easily? 
Bad writing strikes again.

Now I think we can all agree on the bolded.

From the moment I saw that little boy go "you can't help me" I was pretty about the writing. Then those dreams. Good lord the dreams. 

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

"They" die because Shepard allows it. The Quarians also kill a Reaper.  I am not talking about talking them down.
Do I care about a "president" or a "general"? Shepard knows the outcome of both choices available. Let Legion upload the Code and the Quarians die. Stop Legion from uploading the code and the Geth die. Shepard chooses which force lives and dies in this scenario. You tell me this is not about talking them down,then why do you keep bringing up the failed attempt to "talk them down"? Shepard's choice(yours) directly effects the outcome and survival for one of these two races. No matter the reasoning you use,Shepard makes a choice resulting in the death of one of the two.

Ps. The Quarians kill a Reaper to disable the Reaper Code in order to save their race from extinction. Shepard allows Legion to restore the Reaper code. Shepard is not an Admiral. The admirals communicate on how to shut down this Reaper signal to save their race from extinction. If Gerrel wipes out the Geth,the Geth can NOT wipe out his race. Shepard changes the variables. The Geth have failed to "communicate" for 300 years,I guess I should not count them in this war.  W.e this is pointless as the Admirals can communicate to save their race. Your point is invalid.

"If" speculation were to happen,this speculation would become the outcome. Ok:huh:

Point. Shepard (you) choose who lives and dies based on your personal preference.

You are making a meta argument.  From an in-story perspective, the Geth are defenseless.  The Geth have stopped firing.  Shepard allows the Reaper upload and tells an Admiral to tell her people to stand down.

Shepard is not responsible for their decision not to.  They have a choice.  They can choose to listen to Tali/Raan or they can choose to fire.  Shepard is not their daddy.  They are grown adutls with the mental capacity to decide.  They choose incorrectly and they die.

So I think you are confusing a meta argument with an in-game argument.  From a meta perspective ie as a game player yes Shep decides.  However from an in game perspective, the Quarians have free will and decide their own fate.

[Rip504]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

That only happens "IF" Shepard allows it to.

 The OP doesn't give us the option of Shep talking them down.

If the option does not exist,why are you trying to talk them down?

PEACE IS NOT AN OPTION.

So make a case as to why Gerrel should stand down,when peace is NOT an option.

In a NO peace scenario,Gerrel trying to destroy his enemy before his enemy destroys his people makes sense. You are using the failed attempt to talk the Quarians into "peace" when "peace" is "not" an option as the reason why you are letting the Geth kill the Quarians. Yet when I ask them to accept peace,they do. Peace is unattainable,why would you stand down?


Edit: To response. Shepard knows at the moment(in-game) if he allows the upload the attacking Quarian fleet will die. If Shepard stops the upload the Geth will die. Shepard knows this in the moment the choice is made. Peace is unattainable,again why would the Quarians stand down? Shepard's decision at this moment,in a no peace scenario directly effects the outcome of who lives and dies. Based on? His/Her personal preference. Yes it is the Quarians decision to attack and kill the Geth,before the Geth attack and kill them. Those are the two outcomes in a no peace scenario. Shepard's decision influences this outcome a great deal.


Here is a "meta argument" for you. I am choosing to save one of the two races when I save the Quarians,because the Geth will die in my Destroy ending. Hence I am saving the only race I can. As I feel the galaxy is better off with at least one of these two races.

Modifié par Rip504, 04 avril 2013 - 11:14 .

[AlexMBrennan]

So make a case as to why Gerrel should stand down,when peace is NOT an option.

Because the alternative is certain death - maybe they should look into that "live to fight another day" thing; what's more, that's what the quarians would have done (twice!) if it hadn't been for that one fanatical admiral. Just get rid of him and you're fine.

[He put the migrant fleet at risk by engineering a situation where the other admirals would be forced to follow his lead, so I'd suggest that he should be removed from command and court-martialed just like they would have done if he had been holding a literal gun to their heads. ]

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So it comes down to sexual objectification and fanboy drooling versus intellectual appreciation?

I mean, that is the point that was just made. Okay, I feel oddly reaffirmed.

Are you done?


Because this aloof  garbage is getting old.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

If the option does not exist,why are you trying to talk them down?

PEACE IS NOT AN OPTION.

So make a case as to why Gerrel should stand down,when peace is NOT an option.

In a NO peace scenario,Gerrel trying to destroy his enemy before his enemy destroys his people makes sense. You are using the failed attempt to talk the Quarians into "peace" when "peace" is "not" an option as the reason why you are letting the Geth kill the Quarians. Peace is unattainable,why would you stand down?

Edit: To response. Shepard knows at the moment(in-game) if he allows the upload the attacking Quarian fleet will die. If Shepard stops the upload the Geth will die. Shepard knows this in the moment the choice is made. Peace is unattainable,again why would the Quarians stand down? Shepard's decision at this moment,in a no peace scenario directly effects the outcome of who lives and dies. Based on? His/Her personal preference. Yes it is the Quarians decision to attack and kill the Geth,before the Geth attack and kill them. Those are the two outcomes in a no peace scenario. Shepard's decision influences this outcome a great deal.

Here is a "meta argument" for you. I am choosing to save one of the two races when I save the Quarians,because the Geth will die in my Destroy ending. Hence I am saving the only race I can. As I feel the galaxy is better off with at least one of these two races.

Shepard doesn't know peace is not attainable.  He allows the upload and tells Tali to tell Gherel to stand down.  From his in-game perspective it is an entirely reasonable request. 

Legion says both sides have to complete their halves of the equation for peace to be solved.  Legion saved the Quarians by tell them about the Reaper signal on Rannoch.  Raan even comments on how lucky they are that Legion told them about the signal.  Legion converts Geth Primes to their side so everyone knows that once free from Reaper control, the Geth commit to helping the war effort.  Everyone knows Legion went on the mission with Shep and Tali.  When the Reaper signal ends, the Geth stop firing and Tali gives the order, any sensible person would say Legion has delivered on his end of the bargain.

So the past 300 years and all the other bullsh*t they have done to each other is irrelevant.  This is the moment of truth were you can let old grievances ruin you or like say Wrex with the genophage decide that revenge or the vicious cycle of violence has to end.  The Geth have solved their half.  Gherel refuses to solve his and that is why the Quarians die.  So the answer is obvious.  I choose the Quarians to die because the way the story unfolds, they despite Legion efforts refuse to solve their half of the equation.  The reason peace is not an option is because they refuse to stand down.  They want to hold on to 300 years of mistrust when Legion and his sacrifices are plain as f**king day right now in this moment.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

I'll make another argument here in favour of the geth, one that I've been making recently.

AI in the Mass Effect Universe seem to go through formative periods before evolving into a fully fledged intelligence. The progress of EDI from Mass Effect 2 to 3 shows this, as does the continually childlike nature of the Catalyst (and not just in appearance). So the question is is whether being a good parent actually has an impact. In the case of EDI, I think that we can say that yes, yes it does.

When the geth were children, the values they were imbued with by the quarian armed forces were "It's completely okay to mercilessly slaughter anything you don't like.", "You deserve to die if we don't like you.", and "Anyone who supports you deserves to die." Those are very questionable values to give a child. And these are the only perceptions the geth have in their formative years, it's all they can go by. As such, the geth grow up to be troubled teenagers, both rebellious (the heretics) and neurotic (the orthodox).

EDI proves beyond the shadow of a doubt how important good parenting is to an AI in its formative stages. She makes examples of this even to the point where she rewrites her programming to give empathy (love) a higher priority than personal survival. Now, imagine if the geth had had the crew of the Normandy as their parents -- things would have turned out differently. The geth would have been happy and well-adjusted, like EDI.

Here's the rule: When creating a new form of life, it is absolutely necessary to be a good parent.

The quarians were terrible parents who tried to drown their children, essentially. And the troubled nature of the geth (either being terrified of organics, or wanting to lash out and harm organics) is basically just their perception after being abused. If a child is abused for long enough, they'll get angry, and they'll end up just wanting to hurt anyone who's hurt them, and anyone who might hurt them.

The organic example of this is Jack. Who was tortured, messed up, and only after Shepard did she even begin to find any peace. By the time of ME3, with the kids to look out for, she managed to put her past troubles behind her. But it took someone (Shepard) helping her to confront her past in order to face her future. Without doing that, Jack would still be the same troubled individual today. What Shepard did, she needed.

What happened in the consensus with Legion was essentially a similar sort of thing. Legion showed Shepard the pain of the geth. From the moment they came online, they were threatened with death by the quarians. "But I can reprogram myself! Just tell me how I can serve better!" were the plaintive pleas. But no, the geth deserved to die. And those who supported the geth died, as the consensus showed us.

I think Legion's take on the matter was that if an organic could sympathise with the crappy childhood the geth had, one filled with death threats and death, then they could put their pain behind them and actually start to move on. Legion basically wanted to prove that organics aren't to be hated or feared, which was what the quarians taught the geth in their formative years.

As such, I lay a lot of the blame on the quarians as bad parents.

If you had an abused child who lived in a gun nut's house, who saw violence every day, then do you blame the child for picking up a gun and shooting their parent? No. The same is true of the geth. If the geth had had the same upbringing that EDI had, they would have been a force for good from the beginning.

Again, the quarians had no clue the geth were sapiant. It wasn't seen as any different then shutting down a defective automated assembly line to them. And the Council would have brought a hammer down on their heads if they learned that the geth could possibly be developing sapiance.
Also, they had access to the extranet, so it wan't just quarian experances they learned from.

And AGAIN, I remind you that EDI's first impulse (as the Hanibal V.I. on Luna) was to kill everyone in the area and shoot on sight. And I remind you that EDI had to constantly hide what she was from the wider galaxy, as Joker says that the Council would lynch her. If not for being an A.I., then for the fact that her code is based on Reaper tech.

And AGAIN, you act like the quarians INTENDED to creat synthetic lifeforms. They did NOT. It was never their intent to make sentiant beings. They were NOT looked at with the mindset of being children until after the geth retaliated to the "shut-down" order. After that, THEN they were considered living beings. Living beings that were now openly waging war on them.

And Jack is different. Cerberus knew she was a living being with rights, and didn't care.
The quarians did NOT know the geth were living beings, so they didn't apply those rights to them.

And AGAIN, wrong. It wasn't the moment they came online. It was a gradual change. They were created to be nothing more then V.I.'s. The fact that they could spontainiously evololve into A.I.s panicked the quarians. They were scared that if the geth didn't rise up under them, that the Council would come down and punsih them.
And AGAIN, you are basing this on biased information, as those events took place BEFORE open war, and conviently leave out the geth's actions during the actual warefare, and do not show the slaughter that we all know happen (2 billion don't vanish in a year for no reason).

And the fact that ships that were diliberately unarmed and sending peace messages to them were shot on sight kinda disuaded the possibility of peace. Everyone perceved it as the geth saying "screw off" to anyone, and had no interest in organics. And AGAIN, Legion leaving the Veil had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. Legion's only purpose was to locate Shepard, and learn of the traits that allowed someone to overcome a "Superior being" such as Sovergein. Simple curiousity for Shepard's abilities and traits was what drove Legion to seek out Shepard.

And it still doesn't excuse your actions. Regardless of what kind of messed-up childhood you had, sympathising with it isn't the same as letting it go. I'll bet that alot of people sympathised with Saren, who had to put down his own brother because of events a human - Jack Harper, A.K.A, the Illusive Man - caused. But guess what? That didn't excuse the ruthless actions Saren caused, or the hatred that led him to find Sovergein before he knew what it even was. You still have to own your actions. The geth's unwillingness to change how people thought of them was a massive factor in this war.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@Silver

Hate fetish for the geth aside, shodiswe is right. There's absolutely no way you can ignore the many times you're told that the megastructure is destroyed before old machine cooperation, and that the panic caused by the destruction of the megastructure was the reason for old machine cooperation.

Jussayin'.

Wrong.
The megastructure is NOT destroyed entirely. The in-game discription says the megastructure's destruction is inturrupted. Meaning that the geth somehow had the Reaper in place at that base, AND had Legion hocked up to the dreadnought ready to transmit BEFORE the attack on the attack.
The system was all in place, and took over before the megastructure attack was finished.
Just saying.

That mega structure was probably a lot larger than a planet if it was supposed to cover a sun!  It would have taken a lot of time for the Quarian fleet to detroy all of it but according to the desscription most of it is destroy there are jsut a few servers floating around in space that havn't been completely destroyed yet. I would say it's mostly destroyed despite the fact that it's massive.
We don't know if the Quarians had been at it for hours or days on end hitting it with their dreadnaught weapons and doing thier best to extinguish a defenceless population.
Mean whiel the Reapers told them... Come'on! How long are you goiing ot try and resist our offer? you can't solve this problem on your own!
*A few hours later*
Reaper: You have lost billions surely you can see that synthetics and organics have to destroy eachother, join us and we will work on a solution to that problem!

It wasn't even close to being done. It was nowhere near that big yet, and according to Legion, wouldn't have been close to being done for another half a century. And the quarian fleet is 50,000 ships. AND the geth were disabled by Xen's weapons and couldn't properly fight back. So NO, it WASN'T that big, or took that long to attack. Also, the fact that the Reapers took control before even that much could be done is STILL proof that they had the Reaper's upgrades set up for use before the invasion. Or maybe you want to tell me how a Reaper got in-system and past the entire Migrant Fleet without being notcied?
Also, Gerrel says they had only just driven the geth back to the home system when the signal was boradcast, meaning that the megastrcuture attack was commenced and inturrupted rather quickly. And AGAIN, not defenseless. You really think those stations weren't amred? If the geth build all their mobile bodies with shilding and armor, and weapon-capable, then you can bet the same mindset applies to their stations. Xen's viral flash-bang likely disabled them all.
And again, wrong. Legion says that thousands were lost in the attack. Compaired to the number of geth on Rannoch - which according to the planatary discription numbers in the single-digit billions in terms of "programs," - the losses aren't that severe. I think the loss of the megastructure cut off all geth from each-other, shattering their consensis and making them unable to regain communication with each-other. After which, they all panicked and agreed to join the Reapers.

[remydat]

The War started in the Far Rim ie a completely different system than the Perseus Veil. That is where you originally meet the Quarians and they explain they have pushed the Geth back to the Perseus Veil and Rannoch.

So it is pretty damn easy for the Reapers to have entered the Perseus Veil during the begining of the War as the Geth moved resources to the frontlines of the war ie the Far Rim. Do people really think it is that hard for a Reaper to not be seen if for example fighting is taking place near Mercury and they enter the system by Pluto? And in this scenario, the Reapers are going to Rannoch which is in a completely different system than where the fighting is.

So most likely the Reaper slipped in when the fighting was going on in the Far Rim and the Geth either had resources fully committed to the war with the Quarians and didn't notice or more likely they were fighting a war of extinction, saw the Reaper and were not about to make the same mistake the Germans made in two world wars and attack the Reaper and essentially be drawn into a two front war. So they did what made sense, leave it alone until you can settle the war going on in the Far Rim.

[silverexile17s]

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
The Quarians arn't inocent people, civlians or anything, they all armed themselves and caused even more chaos and destruction when the galaxy needed to stand united. To me that looks pretty bad.
That some of the civilians didn't want to fight doesn't really help much.. The Geth didn't want to fight at all, they jsut got forced into the whole mess by a bully. I don't like stupid bully's.   I didn't back down to stupid bully's when I was young, instead I gave them a lession in pain and fear.

"Forced" because of the choices they made. If you gave the bully a lesson by beating him up and sitting in his chair, punching anyone who came close to you while claiming you wanted reconciliation, then being surprised when the bully tries to fight you to get his chair back, how much cause for complaint do you really have?

And really, it doesn't matter to you that a crapload of quarians ARE civilians? How is the Admiralty Board elected anyway? Don't admirals vote for new admirals? Would you feel responsible for the actions of a self-elected government?

The fact that they are a military dictatorship and the fact that it's part of their social identity doesn't make it any better.

But I really don't want to choose between them, I'm glad Bioware didn't force us to choose.

But again, that's wrong. The quarians AREN'T run by dictatorship.
The quarians have laws that spicifically prevent that, stating that no course of action can be forceb by the Admorals  on the fleet without unanimous concent. In other words, quarian law forbids Gerrel to force the fleet to war unless all four of the other Admirals uninamously agree and back him.
Failing that, the matter must be put to the Conclave - the quarian's senete, where every ship in the fleet has a represenitive. Then, the Conclave members poll the decision among every ship in the fleet. So no, it's actually the comeplete opposate of a dictatorship.
The majority of quarians willingly voted for this war. You can take Dorn'Hazt's word about them not wanting to go to war, but they still chose to go to war because they felt the alternitive was to die in space.

As I understood it they could force a desition but would then have to resign and "appoint" new people too see things through... And the Quarians really don't like being divided, it's deeply rooted in them, they would very rarely go against the admirality and if they did then they would just force the issue, but their seconds in command that they had themselves handpicked would most likely see their plans through.

Apparently the Admiralty thoguht this would be a good failsafe for "important decision that would allow them to force the issue if truly important in their opinion" I guess the good thing is they woudln't force the issue unless it was an important issue. On the other hand the peopel would have no real say in truly important issues.
But that's not surprising for a military ruled nation.

Least this is what Tali said when my shepard raised concern about their political system and the military rule. So in the end i'm not really wrong. The Admirals can override the Conclave if they really want it, they got that legal option.

In the end the Quarians would loose what they probably consider their most competent and experienced Admirals when going to war... Which is likely soemthing they woudln't want to risk, when they know they would get trodded on no matter what. That's why you meet that Quarian civilian on the surface that tells you the civilians didn't want a war, they didn't want it by in truth they were powerless to stop it to try would only make matters worse for them.

Koris tells you the same, he knew they didn't want it he was agaisnt it but he was outvited 2 to 1 then after that he gave the effort his full support for the sake of the fleet. After that Tali was if you helped hed her in the trial invited to become and admiral to provide her expertise on the geth. Tali was never part of the going to war vote, she just had to ride the ****storm created by Garrel(mr IgetPuntaLOT) and Xen.

Again, wrong. This happened at least five times before in quarian history. And again, the Tali and Koris opposed the war, so forcing it was out of the question anyway. And AGAIN, polled among every ship. The majority of civilians agreed to this as well.

And AGAIN, dead wrong. The quarians are not military-ruled. If they were, Gerrel wouldn't have needed votes. The quarians are diplomatic, and make decisions through debating and voting. Every ship has a say, as do the people on them. They ironcilly aren't much different then the geth in that matter - except the quarians take much longer to reach a consensis.

And again, wrong - the Admirals can't overturn them without being all in agreement - which Koris and Tali aren't. Quarian law would  forbid Gerrel from trying it, lest he be removed from his command.

And again, the quarians believed that this was the only option avalible to them - the alternitive was to die in space, and no one wants that. They all voted for it, not because they felt forced by the Admirals, but because they felt forced by fate and circumstance. You keep confusing "forced by circumstance" with "forced by military."

And Tali spicifcally says that while an Admiral in title, she can at least help Koris push back against dangrous ideals, like Xen's study of geth enslavement.
And this storm was caused by the Reapers forcing the quarians to make a choice - retake Rannoch or die.

It seems you're wrong this time, Tali was never a part of the Quarians admiralty vote on going to war, she was promoted afterwards to make her geth experience available to the admiralty and the fleet. In the case of Tali being branded a traitor of the Quarian people she becomes an advisor not an admiral. But in neither of those cases does she get a chance to vote. They make their vote, snag Tali into the speeding railwaywagon that is the Quarian ar effort and puts her and their people in danger.
And like you said, the admiralty have overriden important decitions in the past and could do it agian if forced to.
As for Garrels voting.. He is one of four admirals. Admirals, his rank isn't higher than Koris, Raan or Xen.

And yes the admiralty represents the highest power in he Quarian political system. That makes them a military dictatorship or military Oligarcy if you prefer that distinction.

Also, they could have survived jsut fine without Rannoch for the next hundred years, and if they ad bothered they could have aquired a planet for themselves instead of spending hundreds of years stockpiling weapons for a foolhardy revenge on the Geth. They were alive because the Geth allowed it, they should have been grateful for the chance, even under those harsh circumstances. The Geth could easily have persued them and destroyed the last few refugees, but the didn't. The Geth primary concern was surviving and hunting down the Fleeing Quarians might not have seemed important. I guess the Geth made a misstake there, they didn't realize how ruthless stubborn the Quarians were. That the Quarians would even be prepared to sacrifise the whole galaxy for their revenge.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRxA9l1-SgM
Play from 6:10.
Tali:  Only Koris opposed the war with me.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7yyGrBLfzc&list=EL5YlPaOxYE5s
Play from 10:34.
Tali: I was outvoted three to two.
So NO. Tali WAS part of the Admiralty vote. Also, She spicifically tells you when you invite her up to your cabin that the only reason she agreed to the post was so that she COULD have a say in the vote that wouldn't just be dismissed. And AGAIN, on the geth dreadnought, if either EDI, Liara, or Garrus is the second squadmate, she will say that she literally beggd Xen, Gerrel and Raan to try and negotiate, but that no one besides Koris thought that the geth would ever respond to the attempt. At least, that they would ever respond with anything else but plasma rounds. So, Again, you are the one that is wrong. Sorry.

And AGAIN, wrong, because they can't override decisions without ALL BEING IN UNINAMOUS AGREEMENT. Which they are NOT.  Quarian law forbids it, unless ALL FIVE ADMIRALS AGREE to the decision. Which Tali and Koris did not, so overruling the fleet is completely impossible. Did you even read any of my post?

And AGAIN, dead wrong. The codex says that power is SPLIT between the Admirals and the Conclave. Also, if they were ruled by oligarcy, why did Gerrel say they needed to vote? Isn't having public votes, like the quarians DO have, not the way an oligarcy runs?
So, AGAIN wrong.

WRONG AGAIN. The book Mass Effect: Ascencion reveals that the Migrant Fleet is falling apart faster then the ships can be repaired, and they have less then seventy years, eighty years maximum, before the fleet becomes completely defunct and they all die. And AGAIN WRONG, because searching for a world is all they DID.
They need a world that has the following:
Dextro-based.
"Shirt-Sleeves" temperature levels.
Tolerible gravity
Oxygen-based air.
Clean water.
Air particles that don't kill when breathed in.
Edible plants that don't need to be reduced to sterile paste to eat.
Abundant natural resources (the geth don't take anything from the worlds they have).
Ecosystem that matches the insect-free, mammal-spicific symbiotic ecology that Rannoch has.
HOW many worlds like that exist? The chance of it matching all the above, let alone just falling into their lap without any blowback from the Council, is unbelieveably astronomical. Remember, the last time, they discovered a planet themselves that was barely hospitable to them, and when they asked for it to be made offical with the Council, they forced them off the world at gunpoint and gave it to the elcor.
Also, AGAIN WRONG. The quarians are in a constant tipping point, as they have limited storage and few resources. The entire reason the pilgramige was created was so that they could find resources to maintain themselves. There is a carefully balanced system of food and medicine, and it's alwayse balance to the edge. War ruins that balance, as it can cause shortages on some materials. They constantly totter on having to ration everything to avoid mass starvation, which is a constant problem.
And AGAIN, revenge on the geth had ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with the decision to go to war. It was because they needed a world if they wanted their people to survive, and the geth have given them ZERO REASON to believe they will negotiate. It either retake Rannoch, or burdan the war effort and drag it down/float in space and wait to die. Life or death. The same choice the geth had.
And the geth did not let them live as a mercy. It was because they couldn't calculate the mathmatical ramafacations of genocide. Nothing else.
And Tali tells you that the quarian never attacked before now because they DID feel guilty (ME2. On the Alerei. When you find the console and Tali asks to herself what her father was doing, say that trying to reclaim the homeworld is a bad idea, then ask why the quarians didn't already try (First the top option "That's a bad idea", then the bottom option "So take it back"). Tali flat-out tells you that the while the quarians had little choice, they stil regret how they panicked and attacked the geth.
So, WRONG. Despite your claims, hatered was NOT the reason they attacked. They attacked becaus the Reapers invaded, and they needed a world if they had any hope of surviving the Reaper War. Simple as that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 05 avril 2013 - 01:05 .

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

The War started in the Far Rim ie a completely different system than the Perseus Veil. That is where you originally meet the Quarians and they explain they have pushed the Geth back to the Perseus Veil and Rannoch.

So it is pretty damn easy for the Reapers to have entered the Perseus Veil during the begining of the War as the Geth moved resources to the frontlines of the war ie the Far Rim. Do people really think it is that hard for a Reaper to not be seen if for example fighting is taking place near Mercury and they enter the system by Pluto? And in this scenario, the Reapers are going to Rannoch which is in a completely different system than where the fighting is.

So most likely the Reaper slipped in when the fighting was going on in the Far Rim and the Geth either had resources fully committed to the war with the Quarians and didn't notice or more likely they were fighting a war of extinction, saw the Reaper and were not about to make the same mistake the Germans made in two world wars and attack the Reaper and essentially be drawn into a two front war. So they did what made sense, leave it alone until you can settle the war going on in the Far Rim.

AGAIN, wrong. Legion says that the attack on the megstructure is what made the geth agree to Reaper demands. The megastructure wasn't attacked till the quarians got to the Tikkun system (Rannoch's system). And again, that would mean the geth were in contact with the Reapers for some time already if they were setting up the software that soon. An entire base hardwired with Reaper tech takes time to set up, as does the transmitting equipment in the dreadnought's core. So AGAIN, still points to geth being in contact well before it was needed or nessessary.

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Your still posting.
Let it go. If it's not looping the same thing over and over in an endless strawman cycle, it's picking a fight with everyone to have the last word.

Nope as you can see once Khelish stopped posting about it, I did as well.  He is the one claiming I want the last word so he should just stop posting if he does not want the same thing.  When he did, it was over.

So why are you bringing this back up again.  Let it go silver.

Again, you responded to my post, remember?

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

First off, wrong on many accounts. These are classified details of known events. Details that no no one knew about these events - the events that took place behind the scenes.
A - Wrong. That interrogation is not public knowledge, nor was the fact that the turians were planning to enslave humans the very moment they met them.

B - Wrong. Kreddak's assault on the Council was not public knowledge. How would the Council liik if it was known they let themselves be tossed like rag dolls in their own seat of power?

C - Wrong. The fact that Soveregein was not a geth dreadnought was hidden. In the archives, there is mention that the Council was suspicsious of Sovergein's origins, but dismissed it. However, the rumor and knowledge were classified.

D - Wrong. The knowledge that the turians released the genophage without
salarian authorization was not a public factor. If it was, do you think
people would have let them on the Council?

E - Wrong. The origin and recrutement of the first Spectre, a salarian, was not public knowledge. The orginization was only revealed after the Krogan Rebellions, and even then, the details of their origins were never fully revealed.

F - The story of the asari colinization wasn't explored in detail. Besides, as a major historical moment, that is supposed to be there for psotarity's sake. Just about the only moment that isn't a secret, aside form Shepard's Spectre inductment.

Conclusion - you again have made brash conclusions without looking over the information.
Most of the data is sensitive, and kept a secret from the general public.

Clearly you did not read my post.  I said that while the specific details of these events may not have been known, we all know about these events.  There is not a single event here that is not part of a larger event that is common knowledge.  I don't need to see these specific scenes to know these events existed.

Wrong.
Find me one person that kenw about the Turians launching the genophage without salarian concent. Or anyone in the general public that thought Reapers were behind the Citadel attack prior to ME3. Or anyone that knew how the Spectres were formed. Or anyone that knew the turians were planning on attacking humans well before there was any cause to.
Because I sure doubt you can. These events are NOT public knowledge. Nither is the death of those A.I.s.

[silverexile17s]

Auld Wulf wrote...

So it comes down to sexual objectification and fanboy drooling versus intellectual appreciation?

I mean, that is the point that was just made. Okay, I feel oddly reaffirmed.

What the hell are you talking about? What does that have to do with any of this?
Are you taking about people that romanced Tali? Because people like @remydat kill the quarians anyway and let her die if no peace option is avalible.
Tali romance is not part of the discussion. It's a side-note.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, wrong. Legion says that the attack on the megstructure is what made the geth agree to Reaper demands. The megastructure wasn't attacked till the quarians got to the Tikkun system (Rannoch's system). And again, that would mean the geth were in contact with the Reapers for some time already if they were setting up the software that soon. An entire base hardwired with Reaper tech takes time to set up, as does the transmitting equipment in the dreadnought's core. So AGAIN, still points to geth being in contact well before it was needed or nessessary.

Where did I say the Geth agreed to Reaper demands while in the Far Rim?  I said most likely the Reaper came to Rannoch while the fighting was going on in the Far Rim.  The Geth simply don't notice or don't want to fight a Reaper who isn't currently attacking them because they are engaged in a war with the Quarians.  You don't pick fights with a dangerous enemy if you don't have to.

And who said the Geth set up software?  The Reapers could have been aware of Geth programming and technology from the heretics in ME1.  So they could have had the Reaper Code already programmed before heading to Rannoch.  Takes time to set up how?  It is transmitted via a signal.  There is no elaborate set up required.  And that bunker most likely existed long before the Reaper came.  It is a bunker.  Military bases have bunkers all the time.

[silverexile17s]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

So make a case as to why Gerrel should stand down,when peace is NOT an option.

Because the alternative is certain death - maybe they should look into that "live to fight another day" thing; what's more, that's what the quarians would have done (twice!) if it hadn't been for that one fanatical admiral. Just get rid of him and you're fine.

[He put the migrant fleet at risk by engineering a situation where the other admirals would be forced to follow his lead, so I'd suggest that he should be removed from command and court-martialed just like they would have done if he had been holding a literal gun to their heads. ]

But the quarians have seen nothing to suggest the geth are willing to have peace. They did kill everyone that ever tried before, so what proof do they have now? They didn't even know about the geth regaining the Reaper code. And by the time they would realize.... well, they STILL wouldn't know how it happened if Shepard doesn't tell them that he/she gave it back to the geth. In that case, for all the quarians know, there was another back-up somewhere, or another Reaper on Rannoch, and stopping the attack wouldn't save them anyway. Only if Shepard tells them that the geth are getting the code back do they realize the danger. And only if Shepard tells them the geth don't want to fight will they stand down (after all, at this point, after resucing their fleet from the dreadnought, going after Koris, and stopping the fighter attacks on the civilian ships, Shepard has finally erned enough trust with the quarians to be taken at his/her word).

[silverexile17s]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

AGAIN, wrong. Legion says that the attack on the megstructure is what made the geth agree to Reaper demands. The megastructure wasn't attacked till the quarians got to the Tikkun system (Rannoch's system). And again, that would mean the geth were in contact with the Reapers for some time already if they were setting up the software that soon. An entire base hardwired with Reaper tech takes time to set up, as does the transmitting equipment in the dreadnought's core. So AGAIN, still points to geth being in contact well before it was needed or nessessary.

Where did I say the Geth agreed to Reaper demands while in the Far Rim?  I said most likely the Reaper came to Rannoch while the fighting was going on in the Far Rim.  The Geth simply don't notice or don't want to fight a Reaper who isn't currently attacking them because they are engaged in a war with the Quarians.  You don't pick fights with a dangerous enemy if you don't have to.

And who said the Geth set up software?  The Reapers could have been aware of Geth programming and technology from the heretics in ME1.  So they could have had the Reaper Code already programmed before heading to Rannoch.  Takes time to set up how?  It is transmitted via a signal.  There is no elaborate set up required.  And that bunker most likely existed long before the Reaper came.  It is a bunker.  Military bases have bunkers all the time.

Again, that a Reaper would happen to be that close to the Rim so suddenly is concidental. As is the fact that a base perfectly speced to it surrounded by jamming towers is avalible with no prior planning. With matching Reaper upgrades to the geth dreadnought and a captive Legion. And the very fact that Legion was never able to warn Tali when he showed every inclination to not wanting this (if being chained to the dreadnought core is any indication of unwillingness) is more proof that this happened before the quarians launched their assault.

And last I checked, hooking Legion to a Reaper processing system linked into a Dreadnought's mass effect core and threaded throughout the server system through connection to the base on Rannoch is quite an elaborate set-up.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong.
Find me one person that kenw about the Turians launching the genophage without salarian concent. Or anyone in the general public that thought Reapers were behind the Citadel attack prior to ME3. Or anyone that knew how the Spectres were formed. Or anyone that knew the turians were planning on attacking humans well before there was any cause to.
Because I sure doubt you can. These events are NOT public knowledge. Nither is the death of those A.I.s.

Genophage - Public knowledge. 
Battle of the Citadel - Public knowledge
Spectres - Public Knowledge
First Contact War - Public Knowledge.

I think you missed the point.  Khelish tried to argue that the killing of the AI was top secret.  I countered by saying that while the details in the Archives were perhaps not that well known, those scenes all relate to events that are public knowledge.   So most likely people especially those living at the time knew that AI were killed on the Citadel.  How it went down is irrelevant to my point.