4712 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

I just tried thinking what would have happened if the Quarians did try to contact the Geth peacefully without shooting first.

If Quarians sent a fleet or unarmed ships to contact the Geth, those would have been blown the hell up just like all other ship in the last 300 years. And Geth were not willing to communicate over coms (they never responded). So the only option was to go in with guns blazing. Geth joined the Reapers when the they realized it was too much for them. Later claims everything they did was in self-defence and act like they are all so peaceful. Only Geth we ever see trying to communicate was Legion. Who is just one Geth operating alone. And even he join the Reapers willingly. Feel free to disprove this.

Legion was available at no risk to the Quarians until the Quarians attacked. The Quarians voted no to trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement. What the results would have been is uncertain but they knew the option existed and choose not to persue it. The lack of communication or settlements of the conflict were not the geths fault in this case.

Modifié par shodiswe, 05 avril 2013 - 02:53 .

[shodiswe]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I believe if you investigate the quarian fleet rubble there's something saying some of them may have escaped just in time but there's no way to be sure.

So a small backdoor for some survivors at least.

That's news to me. I can appreciate that.

Just remembered that there's a different codex entry for each possible outcome for Rannoch. Here's Quarian defeat:

The quarians re-engaged the geth fleet, expecting to find their enemy now hobbled. Instead, the geth responded with unparalleled precision, devastating the fighters that the quarians used as scout ships. This forced the quarians to commit other forces earlier than planned. The geth then attacked the quarian rear with a second fleet that they had held in reserve, laying waste to the liveships and Civilian Fleet. The quarians, knowing the liveships would not survive long if they were forced to retreat without protection, threw every ship into the battle. The geth fought mechanically, downing ship after ship as the quarians flailed in desperation. Some few quarian ships did escape -- but alone and on the run in geth space, they are living numbered days.

Ooh nice. Thanks.

I havnt checked what it says if you betray the geth. Its possible they take that second fleet and leave the system. They might return in the future unless the destroy ending destroys them.

[Stigweird85]

shodiswe wrote...


I could clone a mamoth or a human in a lab, I fail to see how such action changes things however if I was responsible for them dying or their soecies going extinct. Who is Siri?

In these cases you would still be creating living creatures, the Geth are not "living" they are software. Siri is the voice technology on iPhone 4S and up. Siri can make suggestion maybe even offer a witty retort and has some resemblance of a personality but Siri is very much Software and not alive.

shodiswe wrote... 

When it commes to fires and heroics it would probably depend on how safe it would seem, I'm no professional firefighter or smokediver.

It was a hypothetical question, let me rephrase it. If you could only save one would you save your best friend or your computer?

shodiswe wrote... 
As for creativity, I have no idea, many ideas adher from chaotic thoughts such as daydreaming. At the same time the geth did seem to invite their own technologies. It may not have been groundbreaking so far, but new shotguns, machineguns, terraforming tech. It still reqiers some kind of creativity, innovation and drive.

Why would Geth need to terraform? Who said they did? Can you provide any proof.  Geth weapons =/= ingunity, according to Legion who may/may not be one of the first to pick up a weapon it was a gun dropped by a quarian. As Geth were created to aid the Quarians it is not unrealistic to expect that a Geth would be programmed to optimise something to make it more effecient ergo Geth modifying guns is not a sign of ingunity.

[Stigweird85]

shodiswe wrote...

Legion was available at no risk to the Quarians until the Quarians attacked. The Quarians voted no to trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement. What the results would have been is uncertain but they knew the option existed and choose not to persue it. The lack of communication or settlements of the conflict were not the geths fault in this case.

Where are you getting this information? When was there a vote regarding Peace talks with Legion? Even if there was Legion is a collection of some 1000+ pieces of software. He is not an embassador for the Geth.  Did the Geth reach out for Peace with the Quarians? No Did several Geth side with the Reapers in Mass Effect 1? Yes 

The Geth are not an innoncent peaceful race you seem to believe they are.

[Auld Wulf]

@bigstig

Legion is made available to the quarians in ME2 and ME3. I've pointed this out. In ME2 they choose to freak out and threaten violence/reprogramming rather than actually talking to him (Legion is completely cool about it and doesn't lash back). In ME3 they just completely ignore him. At either point they could have used Legion to open a quarian-geth dialogue. That is why Legion was created, he said so in ME2.

I just don't understand why some people are just so anti-geth that they ignore the evidence and build their argument upon lies. There were plenty of chances for the quarians to open a dialogue. They ballsed it up. Both times.

Edit: The reason I took Legion with me in ME2 was out of the hope that I could get some kind of dialogue going. The sole, reasonable quarian, as always, was Koris. The rest were of either the DESTROY or BRAINWASH camps.

Also, I'll say this again: Blaming a race for the actions of their extremists is more than a bit racist. The geth heretics and the orthodox geth aren't the same people. If the quarians had talked to Legion in either ME2 or ME3, if they'd cared to listen to Shepard, or anyone other than themselves, then they would have found that out. That they didn't is on their own heads.

The very reason Legion was made and sent outside of geth space was as an ambassador of peace to the organics. He tells you this, he tells you that this is his raison d'etre. It's why Legion exists. No one else is as magnanimous as the orthodox geth. No one wants to listen to the orthodox geth. The orthodox geth are saying "Look, we built Legion to tell you that we want peace." and the rest of the galaxy (other than Shepard) is basically sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA WE CAN'T HEAR YOOOU!"

So who's in the wrong? The magnanimous, peace-seeking orthodox geth? I don't think so.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 05 avril 2013 - 03:33 .

[Stigweird85]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@bigstig

Legion is made available to the quarians in ME2 and ME3. I've pointed this out. In ME2 they choose to freak out and threaten violence/reprogramming rather than actually talking to him (Legion is completely cool about it and doesn't lash back). In ME3 they just completely ignore him. At either point they could have used Legion to open a quarian-geth dialogue. That is why Legion was created, he said so in ME2.

I just don't understand why some people are just so anti-geth that they ignore the evidence and build their argument upon lies. There were plenty of chances for the quarians to open a dialogue. They ballsed it up. Both times.

Edit: The reason I took Legion with me in ME2 was out of the hope that I could get some kind of dialogue going. The sole, reasonable quarian, as always, was Koris. The rest were of either the DESTROY or BRAINWASH camps.

Legion is not availble to the Quarians in ME2, depending on how you play the game you can take Legion to Tali's trial but only if you play in a certain order(which I believe is also the bad order as if you do it this way you lose the Normandy crew who were abducted, although I may be wrong) 

You have got to remember this isn't easy as. We want peace, lets do it. The Quarians have been brought up since children to believe that Geth are evil agressors who forced them off their homeworld. You cannot break this level of hate and distrust with a few days.  Also remember the time between the end of Mass Effect 2 and 3 is a matter of months not years.

Even if it was years, what right does Legion who is a collection of some 1000software pieces to represent the entire species. You claim that Legion stated he was created to broker peace? Can you source this? I don't recall any conversation to that end. Legion was more obsessed with contacting Shepard than the Quarians in Mass Effect 2.

By your argument then because the Quarians didn't want to talk peace then they deserved to be wiped out? You are in the middle of the Reaper War, Legion is uploading Reaper code to the Geth why on Earth would you assume at this stage the Geth would be peaceful? Especially as you just fought Reaper infected Geth. 

[Stigweird85]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@bigstig

Legion is made available to the quarians in ME2 and ME3. I've pointed this out. In ME2 they choose to freak out and threaten violence/reprogramming rather than actually talking to him (Legion is completely cool about it and doesn't lash back). In ME3 they just completely ignore him. At either point they could have used Legion to open a quarian-geth dialogue. That is why Legion was created, he said so in ME2.

I just don't understand why some people are just so anti-geth that they ignore the evidence and build their argument upon lies. There were plenty of chances for the quarians to open a dialogue. They ballsed it up. Both times.

Edit: The reason I took Legion with me in ME2 was out of the hope that I could get some kind of dialogue going. The sole, reasonable quarian, as always, was Koris. The rest were of either the DESTROY or BRAINWASH camps.

Also, I'll say this again: Blaming a race for the actions of their extremists is more than a bit racist. The geth heretics and the orthodox geth aren't the same people. If the quarians had talked to Legion in either ME2 or ME3, if they'd cared to listen to Shepard, or anyone other than themselves, then they would have found that out. That they didn't is on their own heads.

The very reason Legion was made and sent outside of geth space was as an ambassador of peace to the organics. He tells you this, he tells you that this is his raison d'etre. It's why Legion exists. No one else is as magnanimous as the orthodox geth. No one wants to listen to the orthodox geth. The orthodox geth are saying "Look, we built Legion to tell you that we want peace." and the rest of the galaxy (other than Shepard) is basically sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA WE CAN'T HEAR YOOOU!"

So who's in the wrong? The magnanimous, peace-seeking orthodox geth? I don't think so.

Sorry I call nonsense on that. Granted I don't remember every line of dialogue but I have zero recollection of Legion every stating he was sent on a Peace mission. Also for Peace seeking every single Geth(bar Legion) seems pretty intent on blowing my head off before I've fired a shot so..

Also you are quick to say don't judge the Geth due to the Heretics but you are quite happy to just the Quarians based on actions of a few. You have a bit of a double standard there.

[Edolix]

@DenionSlayer, those Codex entries were really interesting. Thanks for posting them.

[shodiswe]

bigstig wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

@bigstig

Legion is made available to the quarians in ME2 and ME3. I've pointed this out. In ME2 they choose to freak out and threaten violence/reprogramming rather than actually talking to him (Legion is completely cool about it and doesn't lash back). In ME3 they just completely ignore him. At either point they could have used Legion to open a quarian-geth dialogue. That is why Legion was created, he said so in ME2.

I just don't understand why some people are just so anti-geth that they ignore the evidence and build their argument upon lies. There were plenty of chances for the quarians to open a dialogue. They ballsed it up. Both times.

Edit: The reason I took Legion with me in ME2 was out of the hope that I could get some kind of dialogue going. The sole, reasonable quarian, as always, was Koris. The rest were of either the DESTROY or BRAINWASH camps.

Also, I'll say this again: Blaming a race for the actions of their extremists is more than a bit racist. The geth heretics and the orthodox geth aren't the same people. If the quarians had talked to Legion in either ME2 or ME3, if they'd cared to listen to Shepard, or anyone other than themselves, then they would have found that out. That they didn't is on their own heads.

The very reason Legion was made and sent outside of geth space was as an ambassador of peace to the organics. He tells you this, he tells you that this is his raison d'etre. It's why Legion exists. No one else is as magnanimous as the orthodox geth. No one wants to listen to the orthodox geth. The orthodox geth are saying "Look, we built Legion to tell you that we want peace." and the rest of the galaxy (other than Shepard) is basically sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "LA LA LA LA WE CAN'T HEAR YOOOU!"

So who's in the wrong? The magnanimous, peace-seeking orthodox geth? I don't think so.

Sorry I call nonsense on that. Granted I don't remember every line of dialogue but I have zero recollection of Legion every stating he was sent on a Peace mission. Also for Peace seeking every single Geth(bar Legion) seems pretty intent on blowing my head off before I've fired a shot so..

Also you are quick to say don't judge the Geth due to the Heretics but you are quite happy to just the Quarians based on actions of a few. You have a bit of a double standard there.

I've posted a youtube clip where Tali tells us she had been talking to Legion after he returned to gethspace. After the admirals decided to go to war they made Tali an admiral to advice on the geth seein as she was an expert on the Geth. 
She told them she had open communication with the geth through Legion. If Legion told the geth that the Quarians wanted to talk then I doubt they would have shot Legion gor it.
The thing is the admirals voted on it and only Koris wanted to talk.
Subsequently the Quarians rejected peacetalks, not the Geth.
Legion was right both sides needs to invole themselves for there to be peace, the Quarians rejected the idea of a peaceful settlemet without investigating possible terms for a settlement.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

It's one of those things we dont know about. Quarian supporters made it up. I admit it's not an unreasonable guess.
Though rather than putting a bullet into every last man, woman or child I would assume agressive use of biological, chemical and possibly nuclear weapons.
The resulting environmental damage would have killed all noncombatants who didnt own an environment suit aswell as a way of the planet.
So either they left or they would starve or choke to death. Or get killed by diseases or other introduced environmental hassards.
The thing is the war lasted for almost a year then all of a sudden the Quarins realizes they have to jump into their ships and flee as if an unexpected wave of annihiltion vas suddenly comming their way.
Maybe the geth had changed their tactics or maybe the Quarians did something that made the geth change their tactics in an exteme way.

Also it strikes me that a lot of the Quarian supporters appears to be regarding the Quarians through some type of rosey glass, the same way Liara did with the Proteans. All the signs are there but they still refuse to see it.
People are still saying there was no way to communicate with the Geth yet Tali was in contact with Legion and offered the admirality to handle the introduction and st things up.
The Quarian admirals instead voted against it and sent the fleet in, guns blazing. They had a chance at risk free communication and negotiation but voted aganst it.
I therefor think it's clear that it's the Quarians who didnt want to talk but instead let their guns do the talking.

So the Geth used WMDs on Rannoch? Legion says Quarians didn't use WMDs on the war and they weren't that agsressive. Geth using WMDs while the Quarians didn't means it was no longer in self-defence. It was pure genocide. All the more reason to side with Quarians.

If Legion was so keen on peace, why didn't it try to negotiate with other Geth? Tali was atleast 2 out of the 5 admirals were open for peace from the start. And even Garel is ready to listen if there was reason as shown in peace options. If you are talking about after the start of the war, Legion was pretty much the only Geth not under Reaper control.

I think they got pushed into it by the agression of the quarians. Like Shepard would be forced to choose destroy if no other option was made available. But the Quarians were intent on erradicating ever last geth. One could wonder why the geth didnt do it earlier. It could be that the Quarians had to get sufficiently cruel or irredemable before the Geth changed their tactics, perhaps astronomical deathtolls made them desperate.

That's a lots of assumptions and Legion itself says quarians were not that aggressive. I don't see how this could justify the use of WMDs on billions even if they were true.
I saw some arguements that Geth had no knowledge about morality. They had enough know how about that subject to even start asking about souls and stuff.

I also made a post about what would happen if Quarians tried to meet the Geth for peaceful purposes back in page 153. Nobody tried to disprove it...

[shodiswe]

bigstig wrote...

shodiswe wrote...


I could clone a mamoth or a human in a lab, I fail to see how such action changes things however if I was responsible for them dying or their soecies going extinct. Who is Siri?

In these cases you would still be creating living creatures, the Geth are not "living" they are software. Siri is the voice technology on iPhone 4S and up. Siri can make suggestion maybe even offer a witty retort and has some resemblance of a personality but Siri is very much Software and not alive.

shodiswe wrote... 

When it commes to fires and heroics it would probably depend on how safe it would seem, I'm no professional firefighter or smokediver.

It was a hypothetical question, let me rephrase it. If you could only save one would you save your best friend or your computer?

shodiswe wrote... 
As for creativity, I have no idea, many ideas adher from chaotic thoughts such as daydreaming. At the same time the geth did seem to invite their own technologies. It may not have been groundbreaking so far, but new shotguns, machineguns, terraforming tech. It still reqiers some kind of creativity, innovation and drive.

Why would Geth need to terraform? Who said they did? Can you provide any proof.  Geth weapons =/= ingunity, according to Legion who may/may not be one of the first to pick up a weapon it was a gun dropped by a quarian. As Geth were created to aid the Quarians it is not unrealistic to expect that a Geth would be programmed to optimise something to make it more effecient ergo Geth modifying guns is not a sign of ingunity.

There were side missions in me2 where you steal Geth terraforming technology and Cerberus pays you for it. It's likely it was merely prototype equipment that they were testing on dead worlds.
Maybe they wanted to use it in their restoration of Rannoch or for whatever reason.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I just tried thinking what would have happened if the Quarians did try to contact the Geth peacefully without shooting first.

If Quarians sent a fleet or unarmed ships to contact the Geth, those would have been blown the hell up just like all other ship in the last 300 years. And Geth were not willing to communicate over coms (they never responded). So the only option was to go in with guns blazing. Geth joined the Reapers when the they realized it was too much for them. Later claims everything they did was in self-defence and act like they are all so peaceful. Only Geth we ever see trying to communicate was Legion. Who is just one Geth operating alone. And even he join the Reapers willingly. Feel free to disprove this.

Legion was available at no risk to the Quarians until the Quarians attacked. The Quarians voted no to trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement. What the results would have been is uncertain but they knew the option existed and choose not to persue it. The lack of communication or settlements of the conflict were not the geths fault in this case.

Legion was available to who? Only Quarians Legion met before the war was Tali and she was not an admiral back then (me and most of the other player did not take Legion to the trial. I am not even sure both loyalty missions could be done that way). I didn't see any indication that Legion was there to talk peace (it was there about those Heretics) or that Legion was an ambassador of sorts authorized to talk peace. If I am not mistake, it was not even connected to the Geth consensus.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

I just tried thinking what would have happened if the Quarians did try to contact the Geth peacefully without shooting first.

If Quarians sent a fleet or unarmed ships to contact the Geth, those would have been blown the hell up just like all other ship in the last 300 years. And Geth were not willing to communicate over coms (they never responded). So the only option was to go in with guns blazing. Geth joined the Reapers when the they realized it was too much for them. Later claims everything they did was in self-defence and act like they are all so peaceful. Only Geth we ever see trying to communicate was Legion. Who is just one Geth operating alone. And even he join the Reapers willingly. Feel free to disprove this.

Legion was available at no risk to the Quarians until the Quarians attacked. The Quarians voted no to trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement. What the results would have been is uncertain but they knew the option existed and choose not to persue it. The lack of communication or settlements of the conflict were not the geths fault in this case.

Legion was available to who? Only Quarians Legion met before the war was Tali and she was not an admiral back then (me and most of the other player did not take Legion to the trial. I am not even sure both loyalty missions could be done that way). I didn't see any indication that Legion was there to talk peace (it was there about those Heretics) or that Legion was an ambassador of sorts authorized to talk peace. If I am not mistake, it was not even connected to the Geth consensus.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7yyGrBLfzc&list=EL5YlPaOxYE5s 

at around 10:30 Tali tells you she and Legion were communicating but the admirals voted against peace negotiations. If the Quarians had initiated serious peacetalks things might have ended differently.

Though in the end I think the peace solution was for the best. But this thread is about a situation where no peace could be brokered after the Quarian attack. The Quarians had other options to explore but they choose war.
Legion could have brought a peaceoffer to the concensus and perhaps arranged some kind of negotiation, perhaps even a neutral meeting ground where they could negotiate.
Perhaps it would have proven impossible or perhaps not, but I doubt the concensus would have executed Legion for forwarding the message.
I'm also pretty sure whatever message might have come back would have been honest and reliable. At worst they might have put a communication ban on Legion, Geth don't do that however, Legion told us each Geth is free to do whatever it want which is why the Heretics were allowed to leave.

*edit: I'm not certain but this conversation might differ depending on how you resolve the loyalty missions and their squable about that scanned omnitool.

It's possible they might not be communicating if they ended their squabble on a bad note, or if you support the Quarians attackplans in ME2. I havn't checked that out sicne I never picked those "xenophobic" options and warmongering.

Modifié par shodiswe, 05 avril 2013 - 05:15 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...
Wrong. They take the geth in instantly, even if you sacrifice the quarians. And AGAIN, wrong. They were arrested, not killed.
And AGAIN, those events are STILL not public knowledge.

And AGAIN, wrong, because that would technically make the genophage release illegal, since it wasn't approved by the Council.

They take the Geth in because of Shepard and the Reaper War.  Shepard and the Reaper War was not around 300 years ago.

You have no evidence that 300 AI just magically disappeared and no one 300 years ago noticed.  Just because I in 2013 don't know what happened 300 years ago in 1713 doesn't mean the people living at the time did not.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

I just tried thinking what would have happened if the Quarians did try to contact the Geth peacefully without shooting first.

If Quarians sent a fleet or unarmed ships to contact the Geth, those would have been blown the hell up just like all other ship in the last 300 years. And Geth were not willing to communicate over coms (they never responded). So the only option was to go in with guns blazing. Geth joined the Reapers when the they realized it was too much for them. Later claims everything they did was in self-defence and act like they are all so peaceful. Only Geth we ever see trying to communicate was Legion. Who is just one Geth operating alone. And even he join the Reapers willingly. Feel free to disprove this.

Except Tali and Legion were communicating.  Except they could have consulted Shepard before waging war.  Peace has to start somewhere.  For 300 years there was no real chance at peace.  It is absurd to believe organcs sent ships for 300 years when the Geth showed absolutely no signs of wanting to talk and then when the Geth send a unit beyond the Veil to look for an organic, he meets said organic and then helps that organic and a Quarian defeat the Collectors to fall back on well we can't talk peace because the Geth blew up ships 300 years ago.  Let us just ignore the Geth standing right in front of me who worked with and came to an undestanding with Organics including a Quarian.

There is this concept that circumstances change.  Legion clearly changed the circumstances.

[remydat]

bigstig wrote...

I'm sorry but once again I must pin my thoughts down here.

As much as Geth become sentient or AI advances, AI can not and will not ever be "alive"

Disclaimer first: Removing the debatable aspect of a soul from this argument a geth can only mimmick what it has learned. Even with the most advanced algorithms Geth will still be bound by the original programming parameters, so while they can "learn" they will always have some form of restriction or limitation.

Also Geth cannot recreate the spontaneity of real people, nor can they replicate the ingunity, stupidity and just sheer crazyness of people. Think about cleverbot as an example, it can act like a human based on other users input but on Day 1 it very limited, even today it has learned a lot of it is nothing more that a parrot system learning to repeat certain words and phrases.

You are limited by your DNA and genes.  Also, EDI giving Shep a ring is pretty spontaneous.

Legion betraying his entire race to do what is right is spontaneous.  The Quarians who disagree with war but still sat quietly while their people went to war because they valued CONSENSUS over principle is not very spontaneous.

[Argolas]

Does anyone else wish there was an option to convince the Quarians to back down but still don't allow Legion to upload the code? That would be my decision. At this rate, my Shepard is forced to let the Geth suffer for Legion's stubbornness because he won't trust Reaper codes.

[remydat]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

The ONLY Quarians you ever meet who want to destroy or brainwash the Geth are Gerrel and Xen (possibly Kar'Danna as well), by comparison, you meet more Quarians who are against the war, Koris, Tali and Dorn'Hazt, why are you making such huge generalisations when you barely meet any Quarians at all, let alone veremently anti-Geth ones?

So why didn't the majority stop the minority?  3 Admirals were against war.  2 Admirals were for war.  How the hell did the majority let the minority go to war then?

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

Does anyone else wish there was an option to convince the Quarians to back down but still don't allow Legion to upload the code? That would be my decision. At this rate, my Shepard is forced to let the Geth suffer for Legion's stubbornness because he won't trust Reaper codes.

Given Shep the option to convince Legion not to upload the code defeats the purpose.  If the orgnanics trust Legion, peace is achieved.  If they don't then someone has to die.  It provides a bookend to the original story because the conflict's roots are in the organics inability to trust that synthetics won't ultimately destroy them simply because synthetics exist.

From a narrative standpoint, the two options are clear.  Either you trust and everyone lives or you don't and someone has to die.  There is no point in telling the story where you only half trust them.

[Rip504]

Rip504 wrote...

remydat wrote...

Stiamo parlando in uno scenario di pace no. Shepard sapendo o non non è la questione a portata di mano. Forse ragionevole, ma in questa discussione la pace non è un'opzione. Così il fanalino di un fallito tentativo di che la pace, è molto simile a portare fino al punto che questi stessi ammiragli accettano che la pace.

Secondo comma è inutile. La missione di Geth server fornisce anche prove del fatto che il Geth possono ritirarsi  il Quarians permettono loro di. Se la pace non è mai un'opzione, come può il Quarians percepire le azioni della Legione così come? Non non c'è nessuna opzione per la pace in questa discussione.

No, la pace è un'opzione. Per questa discussione pace non è un'opzione. Così si sceglie il Geth per preferenze personali.

Si può parlare di non accettare la pace di Gerrel tutto quello che volete, ma il fatto è che la gente di Quarian infatti accettare la pace. Ancora non accettare o accettare la pace non è l'argomento. La pace è irraggiungibile. Pace non è mai stata un'opzione. Non è un'opzione che Quarians rivolto verso il basso, non è mai stata un'opzione in questa discussione. O posso semplicemente provare hai sbagliato, come il Quarians accettare la pace che si richieda che non lo fanno. Si stanno basando sul Geth "vuole" la pace e la Quarians sono ruotandolo verso il basso. Questo è uno scenario unico facilmente confutato. Questa discussione è su chi scegliereste come la pace non è un'opzione non è mai, non è mai stato. Irraggiungibile.

Translation.

We are talking about a no peace scenario. Shepard knowing or not is not the issue at hand. Perhaps reasonable, but in this discussion peace is not an option. So bringing up a failed attempt at peace, is very similar to bringing up the point that these same admirals DO agree to that peace.

Second paragraph is useless. The Mission of the Geth server also provides evidence that the Geth can retreat and the Quarians allow them to. If peace is never an option, how can the Quarians perceive Legion's actions as so? How Can I? How can you? There is no option for peace in this discussion. So Legion's actions are to show it wants to live,save,and free it's people. Not showing signs of peace,as there is NO peace. You are using the possibility of peace to show Legions peaceful intentions,yet Legion is deceiving Shepard to save it's people during this mission. So where you see signs of "peaceful intentions" in a non peace discussion,I see Legion showing a willingness to do whatever it has to,to survive and save it's people. Even if it is wiping out the Quarians,which is one of the two possible outcomes in a NO peace scenario. Not peace. LOL

No, peace is an option. For this discussion, peace is not an option. So you choose the Geth for personal preference.

You can talk about Gerrel not accepting peace all you want, but the fact is that the Quarian people DO indeed accept peace. Still not accepting or accepting peace is not the topic here. Peace is unattainable. Peace has never been an option. It was never an option in this discussion. Or can I just prove you wrong as the Quarians accept the peace that you are claiming they do not. You are basing your argument on the Geth "want" peace and Quarians are turning it down. This is a single scenario easily disproved. This debate is about who would you choose if peace is not an option,and has never, nor will never be an option. Unattainable.

Also you failed to answer the single question I asked you. Make a case as to why Gerrel should stand down in a NO peace scenario,when both sides are sitting in space about to attempt to destroy each other. "Defenseless" or not the Geth WILL destroy the Quarians when they come back online.so Gerrel is taking the opportunity to do to the Geth,as the Geth will do to the Quarians.

Modifié par Rip504, 05 avril 2013 - 05:53 .

[Argolas]

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Does anyone else wish there was an option to convince the Quarians to back down but still don't allow Legion to upload the code? That would be my decision. At this rate, my Shepard is forced to let the Geth suffer for Legion's stubbornness because he won't trust Reaper codes.

Given Shep the option to convince Legion not to upload the code defeats the purpose.  If the orgnanics trust Legion, peace is achieved.  If they don't then someone has to die.  It provides a bookend to the original story because the conflict's roots are in the organics inability to trust that synthetics won't ultimately destroy them simply because synthetics exist.

From a narrative standpoint, the two options are clear.  Either you trust and everyone lives or you don't and someone has to die.  There is no point in telling the story where you only half trust them.

I disagree. It's not the fact that Legion is a Synthetic that makes me want to not let it upload the code. It's the fact that it is Reaper tech. I would not let an organic improve his/her race with Reaper tech either.

Uploading Reaper code into a synthetic seems to be about the same as Reaper implants for an organic. I know that it turns out well if I let Legion do it, but my Shepard has no reason to believe that. If I could convince Legion not to do it or at least kill Legion and still convince the Quarians to back down, I'd do that. And after the Reapers are defeated, I would let the Geth decide if they still want the upgrades for themselves.

Consider the risk at that moment. If the reaper code has a backdoor, a trap mechanism that allows the Reapers to control the Geth, you lose effectively 3 fleets: The Quarians are destroyed and the Geth fleet is not only not on your side, but even actively hostile.

Modifié par Argolas, 05 avril 2013 - 05:58 .

[shodiswe]

Argolas wrote...

remydat wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Does anyone else wish there was an option to convince the Quarians to back down but still don't allow Legion to upload the code? That would be my decision. At this rate, my Shepard is forced to let the Geth suffer for Legion's stubbornness because he won't trust Reaper codes.

Given Shep the option to convince Legion not to upload the code defeats the purpose.  If the orgnanics trust Legion, peace is achieved.  If they don't then someone has to die.  It provides a bookend to the original story because the conflict's roots are in the organics inability to trust that synthetics won't ultimately destroy them simply because synthetics exist.

From a narrative standpoint, the two options are clear.  Either you trust and everyone lives or you don't and someone has to die.  There is no point in telling the story where you only half trust them.

I disagree. It's not the fact that Legion is a Synthetic that makes me want to not let it upload the code. It's the fact that it is Reaper tech. I would not let an organic improve his/her race with Reaper tech either.

Uploading Reaper code into a synthetic seems to be about the same as Reaper implants for an organic. I know that it turns out well if I let Legion do it, but my Shepard has no reason to believe that. If I could convince Legion not to do it or at least kill Legion and still convince the Quarians to back down, I'd do that. And after the Reapers are defeated, I would let the Geth decide if they still want the upgrades for themselves.

Consider the risk at that moment. If the reaper code has a backdoor, a trap mechanism that allows the Reapers to control the Geth, you lose effectively 3 fleets: The Quarians are destroyed and the Geth fleet is not only not on your side, but even actively hostile.

Legion was already using the code that he was going to transmit to this fellow Geth, if there was a backdoor then the Reaper on Rannoch would have used it on him.
Legion knew what he was taking and he didn't want. What was safe tech and what wasn't safe. What Legion took were probably soem kind of drivers that made platform maintenance operation more easily managed and less resource consuming increasing computing power for other processes.
Assuming he managed to scrub it free of backdoors and reaper personality code it shoudl be safe. It's not liek reaper tech or code is magical or cursed.
It is however incredibly advanced and therefor it isnt' a simple task for anyone to work with it safely. Geth however should be masters of programming code and the ability analyse it.

Modifié par shodiswe, 05 avril 2013 - 06:16 .

[remydat]

Argolas wrote...

I disagree. It's not the fact that Legion is a Synthetic that makes me want to not let it upload the code. It's the fact that it is Reaper tech. I would not let an organic improve his/her race with Reaper tech either.

Uploading Reaper code into a synthetic seems to be about the same as Reaper implants for an organic. I know that it turns out well if I let Legion do it, but my Shepard has no reason to believe that. If I could convince Legion not to do it or at least kill Legion and still convince the Quarians to back down, I'd do that. And after the Reapers are defeated, I would let the Geth decide if they still want the upgrades for themselves.

Consider the risk at that moment. If the reaper code has a backdoor, a trap mechanism that allows the Reapers to control the Geth, you lose effectively 3 fleets: The Quarians are destroyed and the Geth fleet is not only not on your side, but even actively hostile.

Yes but the point is Legion has already used it and Legion says it is safe.  You either trust him or you don't.  The Geth have a right like any organic to choose their own path.  The Quarians didn't ask the Geth's permission to develop the weapon that nearly exterminates them.  The Organics don't ask the Geth permission to develop WMD's or other weapons organics have used that have waged war.  So the Geth via Legion have decided this tech is safe.  They have decided for themselves just like any organic species they wish to improve themselves.  That is their right as a sentient species.  You either trust and accept they have that right or you don't.

When organics start asking the Geth to determine issues for them that threaten the Geth or others then it would make sense for Shep to object.  They don't.

Modifié par remydat, 05 avril 2013 - 06:38 .

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Translation.

We are talking about a no peace scenario. Shepard knowing or not is not the issue at hand. Perhaps reasonable, but in this discussion peace is not an option. So bringing up a failed attempt at peace, is very similar to bringing up the point that these same admirals DO agree to that peace.

Second paragraph is useless. The Mission of the Geth server also provides evidence that the Geth can retreat and the Quarians allow them to. If peace is never an option, how can the Quarians perceive Legion's actions as so? How Can I? How can you? There is no option for peace in this discussion. So Legion's actions are to show it wants to live,save,and free it's people. Not showing signs of peace,as there is NO peace. You are using the possibility of peace to show Legions peaceful intentions,yet Legion is deceiving Shepard to save it's people during this mission. So where you see signs of "peaceful intentions" in a non peace discussion,I see Legion showing a willingness to do whatever it has to,to survive and save it's people. Even if it is wiping out the Quarians,which is one of the two possible outcomes in a NO peace scenario. Not peace. LOL

No, peace is an option. For this discussion, peace is not an option. So you choose the Geth for personal preference.

You can talk about Gerrel not accepting peace all you want, but the fact is that the Quarian people DO indeed accept peace. Still not accepting or accepting peace is not the topic here. Peace is unattainable. Peace has never been an option. It was never an option in this discussion. Or can I just prove you wrong as the Quarians accept the peace that you are claiming they do not. You are basing your argument on the Geth "want" peace and Quarians are turning it down. This is a single scenario easily disproved. This debate is about who would you choose if peace is not an option,and has never, nor will never be an option. Unattainable.

Also you failed to answer the single question I asked you. Make a case as to why Gerrel should stand down in a NO peace scenario,when both sides are sitting in space about to attempt to destroy each other. "Defenseless" or not the Geth WILL destroy the Quarians when they come back online.so Gerrel is taking the opportunity to do to the Geth,as the Geth will do to the Quarians.

Once again, this is a meta argument.  You are asking me to make a decision as if I am an omnipotent god who knows peace is not an option.  I am telling you my decision is made as if I am actually Shepard and I have no knowledge of the outcome because I am just a human that exists in this universe.

So before proceeding, we need to agree on exactly what you are asking.  Are you asking me a question as a game player that knows the outcome or assuming I am in the role of Shepard who like most is not physic? 

And it has nothing to do with personal perference unless by personal perference you mean it is my personal preference that the aggressor in the war is the one that should be punished.  If so that is kind of the personal preference of the legal system.

Both sides are not sitting waiting to destroy each other.  Your question was answered by pointing out it is not an accurate question.  The Geth have stopped firing and every indication in the game is they have no intent to resume firing unless the Quarians fire on them.  In the game, the only time the Quarians stop firing is also the only time peace is achieved.  So your question does not follow the story as presented in the game.  Having said that, if the story in the game was such that the Quarians stop firing but the Geth VI said would still wipe them out then the Geth would die.  I don't see that in the story.

Modifié par remydat, 05 avril 2013 - 06:37 .