shodiswe wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
@ Silver
So... You claim the Quarians made Tali an admiral immediately after coming back to the fleet? Because it was said she was made an admiral to help them with the war effort as a technocal expert on the Geth. The war necessitated additional experts like Tali. The fact that she was with the fleet didn't make her an admiral from the get go.
Also when you meet the admirals before going to the Rannoch system you learn that Rannoch isn't the first system they attacked, they drove the Geth from other systems on the way to rannoch. The war didn't start with the attack on the sphere, the Geth did have plenty of time, but during their attack on the shere the signal got activated.
They don't specificly tell you how long they had been fighting that war until they got into trouble.
On the citadel you're told that spectre inteligence is worried about a war breaking up and Quarian ships moving in on the geth and recalling all quarians on pilgrimage.
Then they fight the geth system by system til they get to the Geth's home system tannoch where the geth had collected and consolidated their forces for a last stand.
You are accusing the Geth to have had reaper influence from before the Quarians attacked, when everything here tells us they hadn't, the Quarians were quite sucessful at nearly wiping out the Geth race/species.. Then in their desperation they accepted the Reaper offer hoping it would buy them some time..
In other wors you're wrong what you're saying is jsut headcannon on your part.
I don't even think Tali got to vote if the conclave had a chance to vote, noone says the conclave had a vote. But only crewmembers of Quarian ships get to vote, Tali isn't recognized following the admirals choice to make her Tali Zorah Vas Normandy, a non flotilla ship.
How can that survivor on Rannoch tell you the civilians didn't want war? How can Koris tell you they didn't want that war if they were allowed to vote on it? They would have won that vote in that case?
Logic dictates that the claim of a conclave vote makes no sense. Unless it was overriden by the admiralty, yet there they are.
Further more we're told the Admirals had no interest in trying to communicate or negotiate, they voted agaisnt it 3 to 2 after Tali brought it up after they had already decided to go to war. Tali was brought in to advice and help with the war effort.
It pleases me that Tali didn't betray my Shepard's confidence, it's unfortunate that the Quarian Admiralty oligarchy decided to go agasint the will of the citadel council and my Shepard, and from what we're told the will of their people. It is also unfortunate that they see peacetalks, negotiations and coexistance as undesirable. They really arn't good at making a case for the Quarians side of it. The Quarian side of it when looking at it objectively looks really bad.
She STILL was part of the overall vote. And she DOES have some measure of power, like how she was pushing against Xen on whether to recover quarian lifepods, or let Xen salvage the geth dreadnought. Raan tells Tali that she needed the "political leverage" the position gave. Tali spicifically tells you that when she returned to the fleet, she was invited into the Admiralty Board. So, YES, Tali WAS made an Admiral shortly after her return to the fleet - after all, why plan an attack on the geth without the quarians most achieved geth expert presant?
And again, NO. The geth spicifcally say the attack on the Megastructure was what forced them to ally with the Reapers. Also, the quarians pushed through those systems to get to Rannoch. The same path a Reaper would have had to take to get there. HOW exactally do you think a Reaper got past the quarians as they were moving to Rannoch? Because as far as I can tell, the path the quarians took - through four geth systems - was the only path. After all, if they could just jump to Rannoch, they would do so. But again, if that is the only way to Rannoch, then the Reaper would have taken that path to, and would have had to move past, and overtake, the quarian fleet without being discovered. Something which I doubt the Destroyer could do.
Um... Yes they do. Gerrel says "seventeen days ago, with precision attacks on four geth systems, the quarians initiated the war to retake our homeworld."
17 days. That's pretty damn exact. And since the Rannoch invasion was at the end of that arc, that means about a day or so. Two at the most.
And AGAIN, wrong. Spectre intelligence tells you that the quarians are gearing up to fight someone, but no information on who. Remember, Diana Allers tells you in an E-Mail to your terminal that, aside from the Alliance brass and the Council, no one else in the wider galaxy is even aware the quarians went into the Perseus Veil, let alone tried to re-take Rannoch from the geth.
Also, I'd hardly call it a last stand, since it's been confirmed that there were thousands outside the Veil. The Asari Councilor tells you that thousands of geth bodies, filled with Reaper code in place of actual geth programs, still exist outside the Veil (these are the same geth that you face in ME3 Multiplayer missions). So no, while the core of the geth fleet was at Rannoch, there were many more scattered across the Veil, either brushed past in the quarian's mad dash to take Rannoch, or having left the Veil to join the Reapers in the war.
As I stated above, it's actually the opposate of your claims: there is nothing but evidence to support geth contact with the Reapers prior to the war. And "buy time?" You are the one using headcannon. The geth knew full well they would never be able to escape Reaper control if the took the offer. In the end, they didn't care if it ment survival.
Reaper somehow beats the quarians in getting to Rannoch, despite that they would have to take the same path, and it does so without them noticing it. Unlikely.
The Reaper was there before the assault began. Likely.
And AGAIN, dead wrong. In ME2, when asking Gerrel about the underlying reason for Tali's trial, he says that they "almost had the votes. We just need to give people hope for victory." An indication that the quarian's war plans were put to vote among the populance of the Migrant Fleet.
And AGAIN, wrong. Tali is made an Admiral with at least a measure of power, given that Tali tells you the reason she took the position was so that she could press back against any reckless ideas, like Xen's.
And you yourself argue about the geth not wanting to fight, but doing so in desperation. The quarians agree to do the same, because they felt the only alternitive was to sit in space and die. You defend the geth making a choice they don't want to make out of desperation, yet chastize the quarians for the exact same?
And AGAIN, overruled by Admiralty is impossible without ALL THE ADMIRALS agreeing to it. Quarian law expressedly forbids Gerrel, Raan, and Xen from sending the fleet to war unless Tali and Koris agree, or unless the majority vote of the Migrant Fleet's population agrees. And AGAIN, no reason to believe a single geth, after tens of thousands assaulted the Citadel. I swear, you aren't even reading anything I've put up.
And AGAIN, dead wrong. The Council declaired open war on the geth after Eden Prime, issueing a kill order on all geth. Geth are listed as to be shot on sight after their attack on the Citadel (which the True geth never came out to clarify wasn't caused by them).That treaty Koris mentions is completely redundant by the time the quarians launched their attack.
AGAIN, dead wrong. Quarian law forbids a course of war without the Admiralty Board being in unanimous agreement. Otherwise, a majority vote from the Conclave can overrule the decsion to march to war. Instead, since the march to war took place, the majority of the quarian population willingly voted to go to war. How many times must one say "willingly voted" before it dawns on you that they willingly voted to go to war?
And AGAIN, dead wrong. They saw no reason to believe it. It was NOTHING like that. If it was, Gerrel would have kept attacking the geth and ignored Shepard's order to stand down in the Paragon/Renagade conversations. He stands down. So OBVIOUSLY, they aren't as unwilling to peace as you headcannon them to be. If they thought peace was possible, they WOULD have tried it. The entire reason they attacked is because they thought peace WASN'T possible. What about that do you not understand?
When looking at it objectively, it's NOTHING like you describe it.
In other words you are telling me it took the Geth seventeen days of getting slaughtered to finaly accept the Reapers help? That kind of invalidates your claim that the Geth were already in league with the Reapers... As for reaper forces... They can be found all over the galaxy if you fly around and scan they will come running except in the homesystems of major species and very specific mission areas.
The Reapers are all over the galaxy spying, manipulating, indoctrinating, noone can stop that, all those atempts are nought but a delaying action. Not to mention the Catalyst probably knows everything mentioned on that Spectre terminal...
The Admiralty voted in favor of a war.
Tali sugested negotiation, that sugestion was voted down by the admiralty.
The Quarians arming up and moving their fleet close to Geth space and recalling all their people kind of suggests they are planning to attack the Geth, you don't assemble a force close to a non reaper infested part of space to make friends, especialy given their past history.
Secondly the time it took them to wait for all their ships and people would have been more than enough for that Reaper destroyer to fly to the Geth, tell them the Quarians were planning to attack and offer it's aid. Aid that wasn't accepted until seventeen days later after Geth civilians in the sphere were getting massacered. Because geth residing in servers around their sun, arn't armed platforms. People can make all kinds of claims that they can still move to platforms or aid in the war effort, but that's beside the point, it shows the Quarians intent to destroy all Geth and the death count accelerated to crazy numbers in the billions.
I think Humanity woudl have taken that Reaper offer if the Turians did that to them and they were rendered defenceles, just to get revenge and make sure they don't get away with it.
If they had been reaper friendly from the start then it wouldn't have taken the Geth seventeen days to to react and mount a defence that would destroy the Quarians instad of having them invade their home starsystem and start killing of their most heavily populated population center.
Secondly the Councils orders to destroy all Geth was limited to all geth outside Geth space, they did not mount a fleet to clear the perseus Veil, that would ofcourse have made the Quarians overjoyed.
You havn't said anything that changes anything what so ever or proves anythign other than the Geth relucance to accept Reaper aid.
Further more if you are saying Tali must have voted in favor of the war while claiming she was fighting it then she's a traitor and a liar... Both of which suggests I should shoot her on the spot! However I don't want to belive that... Tali voting in favor of the war while claiming she was trying to prevent it and didn't want that stupid war? Koris voting on favor of the war even thoguh he didn't want the war and was very outspoke?
Were they all Reaper indoctrinated or sometihng to act like that? That's jsut crazy, or maybe insanity and violence are Quarian traits? I am not aware of the Law you mention about them having to agree unanimous on a war, I assumed Admiral Raan gave her support seeing as she was very closer to the now dead Rael Zorah who was performing illegal research to promote a war with the Geth. Which lead me to belive a majority vote of Gerrel, Xen and Raan was enough to start the war with the other falling in line to avoid the fleet gettign annihilated even if their vote was no they would go with the Majority.
Also I must have missed the part where anyone said she was immediately made an admiral after returning to the fleet, a source woudl be nice to claritys sake. Probably woudln't change much though. Unless you can also prove that it's against Quarian law to go to war with a unanimous vote to do so, then that would also prove Tali and Koris to be liars...
If anything that would upset me even more! If not make me distrust them even more... It would kind of confirm VI Legions claim that Quarians can't be trusted, I was just thinking VI Legion was paranoid and had too many bad memories from the MW. But if they are ling to Shepard/ breakign laws and don't seem particulary concerned then one can wonder what place they would have in a future galactic community.
No laws, no morality, you can't trust them.... Please tell me you are wrong about those statements Silverexile!
I don't hate the Quarians enough to want what your claim to be true. Because if what you say is true then I'm not sure if I can pick the peace option in game any more, the Quarians would be a worse threat than the Krogan or the Geth. So please tell me they arn't liars, lawbreakers and immoral backstabbers! If you have proof that they are indeed this bad then post some sources please.
WRONG. The fact of the matter is that the Reaper there could not have gotten there any other way, unless it had already been there from the start. The geth were in
contact with them, but
didn't accept until the meagstructure was attcked. So NO, it DOESN'T invallidate what I said. Also, last I checked, there weren't any major Reaper forces in the Terminus System. That was pretty much Cerberus Terrotory, thanks to them ruling Omega, and Sancturary on Horizon. Sanctum in the Skepsis system, also Terminus. The Terminus is half Cerberus-controled.
I didn't see Reapers in the Far Rim. Or in any force in the Perseus Veil. The Reapers have their hands full. Every other cycle, they had control of the Relays and could segregate everyone and pick them off one by one. Now, that isn't an option. The core of their fleet is on Earth with Herbinger. The rest are occupied with the Alliance, Turians, and Asari. They are working to surppress the vorcha, volus, and elcor, to prevent them from joining the war in bulk. The majority of Reaper forces is locked in Council and Alliance space, and the Attican Traverse and Skyllian Verge. The complete opposate side of the galaxy to Rannoch. Terminus are left to Cerberus, and they aren't really allies of anyone, given their "take over the Reapers" plan. If the Reapers could afford a force like that, don't you think they already would have done it?
The Admiralty went to war because with the Reapers killing everything, the only alternitive was to die in space.
They shot down Tali and Legion because they never saw diffinitive proof that one geth represented the entire geth race. Was it brash? Yes. Was it done in fear? Yes. Was it unfounded? Based on what people witnessed an army of geth do at the Citadel, no. Remember, what the geth did at the Citadel is the mindset that everyone in the galaxy - quarians included - has of the geth. One geth suddenly telling them that's all false is going to be taken as seriously as TIM's announcement of dominating the Reapers with their own tech. Which is to say, not very seriously.
And yet, no one ever knew what the quarians did. Again, you are assuming that classified Spectre intelligence reports are public knowledge. I doubt that report was public, considering that you needed Spectre clearance to look at the damn terminal. So, AGAIN, no one knew the quarians went against the geth. It wasn't public knowledge. The only ones aware of the chance that anything was even possible were Hackett, and Spectre intel.
Again, WRONG, since it would have had to use the same Mass Relays the quarians were using. Good luck with that working. AGAIN, it only makes sense if that Reaper was there beforehand. The entire reason Legion broke off contact with Tali
months before the invasion was because there was some sort of termoil in the geth consensis. Tali said that maybe Legion was resisting Reaper takeover.
@Hazegirl and I actually thought up a theroy that perhaps the Reapers were
aware the quarians were planning to march on Rannoch, and
told the geth about their plans, panicking them into calling Legion back and chaining him up so that he couldn't get back in touch with Tali. And that the geth then allowed the Reaper to stay and set up shop as a "precaution" in case the quarians were more of a threat then they could handle. After all, thanks to their own isolation, the Reapers are the only ones that would be willing to even speak to them, let alone aid them if they got in trouble.
Again, wrong. Geth are supported by wireless transfer. They pulled back quite fast. You are again confusing death of a platform with death of a geth program. And AGAIN,
there is no such thing as a geth civilian. They are ALL optimized for combat. ALL can take on the role of perfect military soldiers, and all have the "training" and drive to do so. There is NO such thing as "geth civilians." Also, I AGAIN point out that only a few thousand died on the megastructure, and there are
billions on Rannoch. The count was in the
thousands, NOT the billions. The only major casualty was the geth being fractured, and unable to connect with each-other to form consensis - the backbone of their existance. If anything, the majority of geth have condensed themselves on Rannoch. If anything, the ONLY major geth causalties were in the megastructure attack. So no, the geth's death count isn't as high as you think.
Survival. The ONLY motivation was survival. The geth don't BELIEVE in revenge. If they didn, a hell of a lot more would have joined Sovergein.
And if that's what you think, you don't know anything about humans. EDI tells you that humans on Earth are dying in droves by resisting Reaper deals, feeding false information, and that no matter how many times the deals are offered, the humans refuse to turn on their allies, on the ground, or in space.
And again, no. Because the Coucil actually thought they had wiped out the majority of the geth. The Council likely thought the geth's armada at the Citadel was the majority of their numbers (again, no one knew there was a Heretic split, so the fleet was assumed to represent the collective power of the geth). They likely didn't think the geth were a threat anymore, so they figured that the geth didn't have enough strength to bother attacking.
Tali gave up fighting against the war effort after Legion cut contact, and the majority of the Conclave and Migrant Fleet voted "War." After that, the option to stop the war was basically dead, so the only thing both she and Koris could do was orginize the civilians and do everything they could to defend them should things go south. Nither of them supported the war, but they buried their objections so that the fleet didn't start tearing itself apart in panic if the going got tough.
The quarians felt pressured. They couldn't aid the allied forces as is, because lugging their entire population into battle would be suicide, as they would be targets, and would drag down the other fleets. They would cripple supply lines, as they consume a months worth of supplies in a day, and have no space to run supplies and evacuate colonies because their ships are already loaded with their own civilians. There is no other habitable dextro-based world that has Rannoch's insect-free mammal-spicific ecology. Any dextro-worlds that come close are turian owned, and are all either under Reaper attack, Cerberus targeted, or overfilled to capastiy. And no colony that was free would be willing and able to take on 17 million quarians with strict health and diatary needs. There was only one hope: become self-sufficant, with a world to secure their future on, so their fleet can go against the Reapers knowing theor people are as safe as can be in the Reaper War.
So in short, the quarians felt that they either must reclaim Rannoch, or wait in space to die. They may not have
wanted to fight, but they felt they had
no choice BUT to fight. They gave in and did the exact thing they didn't want because they thought the alternitive was to wait for death to take them.
Just like the geth.
They didn't want to ally with the Reapers, but had no choice but to do exactally what they didn't want.
The geth, and the quarians, are exatcally the same.
And when you talk to Tali about how she ended up with the fleet, and the war, she tells you that because of her experance with the geth, she was offered her father's position in the Board when she returned to the fleet.
Also, talk to Tali in ME1. She says that it's rare for the Conclave and Admiralty Board to be in major disagreement on something, but that the Conclave can overrule the Admralty Board by obtaining a majority vote. If the Conclave gets a majority vote, it can overturn any decision/proposal the Admirals make. The only way the Admiralty Board can overturn an opposing majority vote from the Conclave and wider quarian populance, is for all the Admirals to be in unanimous agreement. All five admirals must agree on the cource of action in order to overturn the Conclave's majority vote. After that, if the Board sucessfully overturns the Conclave's vote, all five admirals must step down and resign their posts. Quarian law demands it. So in other words, Gerrel, Raan and Xen couldn't force the fleet anywhere without either Koris and Tali supporting the war, or the majority of the fleet agreeing to it.
So, as you can see, they DO have laws, and are NOT amoral. They just became desperate and scared of the Reapers..... same thing that happened to the geth with the quarians.
They are nothing like what you stated.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 06 avril 2013 - 09:40 .
Ce sujet est fermé
Retour en haut
:lol:
