This argument in a nutshell falls to these questions:
1. Are the Quarians wrong by attacking a species that they believe chased them from their homeworld and recentlty launched a war against the galaxy?
2. Are we debating based on knowledge to that point or based on knowledge of all possible outcomes.
3. Are the Geth trustworthy? At the stage Legion had acted without Shepards knowledge and withheld mission crucial information on no fewer that 3 different occasions.
Questions 1+3 are a matter of opinion, Personally I believe the Quarians were correct to launch a preemptive attack on the Geth, a species who is known to be rogue AI and who took part in the attack on the Citadel less than 2years ago. If they had succedded they would have been hailed as heroes, just as the Krogan were after the Rachni wars.
As for Legion, he has decieved you multiple times to suit his own end and he is forcibly releasing Reaper code to the Geth. Logically this is a no brainer - you have a species who you have just finished fighting a war againts about to be upgraded by tech from a species that you are currently at war with. The only evidence that this is safe is Legion and as I have mentioned he has already proven that he may not be trustworthy.
Point 2 shouldn't be up for debate, we cannot apply foresight to the question of who to pick based on the knowledge of what happens after the decision.
This argument in a nutshell falls to these questions:
1. Are the Quarians wrong by attacking a species that they believe chased them from their homeworld and recentlty launched a war against the galaxy?
2. Are we debating based on knowledge to that point or based on knowledge of all possible outcomes.
3. Are the Geth trustworthy? At the stage Legion had acted without Shepards knowledge and withheld mission crucial information on no fewer that 3 different occasions.
Questions 1+3 are a matter of opinion, Personally I believe the Quarians were correct to launch a preemptive attack on the Geth, a species who is known to be rogue AI and who took part in the attack on the Citadel less than 2years ago. If they had succedded they would have been hailed as heroes, just as the Krogan were after the Rachni wars.
As for Legion, he has decieved you multiple times to suit his own end and he is forcibly releasing Reaper code to the Geth. Logically this is a no brainer - you have a species who you have just finished fighting a war againts about to be upgraded by tech from a species that you are currently at war with. The only evidence that this is safe is Legion and as I have mentioned he has already proven that he may not be trustworthy.
Point 2 shouldn't be up for debate, we cannot apply foresight to the question of who to pick based on the knowledge of what happens after the decision.
How dare you prove Quarians were right? None of these points matter as they don't say Geth are loving and caring little robots being oppressed by big bad organics.
silverexile17s wrote... No, they DIDN'T. Legion is isolated from the consensis. He was acting completely indipendant. And when Legion did return to the Veil, he NEVER RETURNED ANY OF TALI'S COMMS AFTER THAT.
Tali tells you Legion returned to geth space immediately, she and Legion traded some messageses for a while she brought up the possibilities to the Admiralty but they voted agaisnt a diplomatic settlement.
In game video of that conversation should be proof enough. I would say you are trolling but it's possible you treated Legion badly and took Tali's side in every conflict resulting in a Legion that didn't want to talk. Which it is Ican't tell, sounds like you are trolling though.
silverexile17s wrote... Also, Legion.... never physically was there, actually. He spoke with Tali and the Admirals via wireless communication. He didn't trust the Admirals either. Most likely, he didn't trust that Xen wouldn't disect him before he could speak, or that Gerrel wouldn't hold him as a POW if things went south. The quarians DID look at the option, but it was outvoted. Gerrel saw little to no reason to take Legion's word. Xen didn't see the geth having any right to live as equal to their "masters." Raan didn't believe any form of peace could be possible with all the bad blood between the two factions.
You must be trolling... First he wasn't returning calls after returning home immediately then all of a sudden he was communicating via wireless communication? Also the distrust you suspect Legion to have does seem reasonable, the only thing that stops the Quarians from doing such a thing to Legion is the fact that Legion is either under Shepards protection or protected onboard a humanship which works as a neutral party in the Geth/Quarian conflict. Wireless communication is a good first step to establish a line of communication, if the admirals really wanted to talk and showed serious interest then it might have been possible for them to arrange something. What's important to note is that the Admirals didnt want to talk. Legion said they would talk if the Quarians showed them they were interested in doing so, and that it was in the best interest of the Quarian people to do so.
Or as Legion would have said;
silverexile17s wrote...
shodiswe wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
remydat wrote...
silverexile17s wrote...
Because the relays have no user restrictions like the Citadel, for one? Because it's stated in the Codex that the Reapers are as dependant on relay traval as the rest of the galaxy, for another? Because the only path to the Perseus Veil is occupied by said 50,000 ships and and the Reaper would have to get past them, maybe? And the quarians are experts at logistics, and the Patrol fleet is almost all scouting ships with advanced sensor suites. So YES, they WOULD be able to see the Reaper overtake them.
Can you provide a link that says ships can see each other as they travel the mass relays? Do you think I can look out the window and see an object travel faster than the speed of light as it zips by me?
Also, when the Normandy travels to the Perseus Veil, does it have to go through the Far Rim? Not in front of my game so can't verify this.
The Codex Entry "Mass Relays" for ME3. It states that the Reapers use the Mass Relays with impunity to get around, and the Codex entry "Desperate Measures" talks about blowing the Relays to delay Reaper invasion. There is your proof. And also, Engineer Adams told you on the Normandy SR-1 that going to FTL is like lighting off a flare to anyone around you. Impossible to miss on sensors. So YES, the quarians would be unable to miss a Reaper Destroyer.
Also, did you actually forget the Normandy is a Stealth Ship??. One that Cerberus upgraded to be able to fly at FTL without disengaging the Stealth drive - a feature the Reapers never bothered to get, given how they are detected so damn easily when they enter a system. Honestly, this is stuff that anyone reading the lore would know about.
The FTL flare is from the shipboard FTL engines that are used when traveling between stars in a starcluster... Without the use of a relay... Which is the origin of FTL flares. Blowing up relays would only create a short delay for the reapers as proven by the Arrival DLC.
The type of engines that the fleet around earth used to escape from the crusible blast.
There seems to be a lot of errors in your comments, secondly even if they used their reaper FTL drives at soem point it would be impossible for the Quarians to identify what type of ship it was that used FTL unless they spot it before they activate FTL. They wouldn't know if it's Geth Quarian, volus or human. They would however know that something was there. And assuming they keep track of their own ships then they woudl have to assume it wasn't Quarian.
No. That's incorrect. Engineer Adams tells you in ME1 that going to FTL blue-shifts emmisions, making the ship easy to detect. FTL is used for travel between systems. (NOT culsters, as that requires Relay-based traval. FTL is the conventonal travel between systems that uses fuel to acomplish.) FTL "flares" are the short bursts that come from Relay traval. Conventonal FTL is a "burn" effect that leaves a visable trail, and allows one to track the ship itself.
The type of engines the fleet uses to escape the Crucible are no different - you can track them by following the FTL trail, or homing on the "Burn" of the ship engines.
So NO. Only your self-perceved errors. Also, Reapers have signifigantly improved drives, with a higher output then standard ships. Their more advanced technology makes them easy to pick out among enemy ships. Besides, ANY ship going into the Veil that isn't regesterd as part of their fleet would still draw attention. So getting detected would still draw the fleet on it.
I did say FTL is used within clusters, apparetly the Reapers can use it to travel much longer distances than that though and at twice the FTL speed. It's interesting how many times Shepard has been using relays and FTL's in enemy systems and managed to stay undetected. There might be a flare but identifying it is a different story, ships like the Normandy are harder to detect and identify but not impossible when the flare is noticed. The Flare is a temporary anomaly thoguh and unless you track it to the source it will be hard to identify the ship. Reaper ships could possibly harder to detect since it doesn't seem like they care about being discrete about their comming and goings. Futher more the Reapers are aware of all relays in the network, the allied forces or the Quarians arn't. They might very well have back doors to certain areas which would explain how they seem to be everywhere. Just because a or a few reaper ships might be roaming the Veil doesn't meen the Geth invited them, the Reapers go where ever they like. I'm pretty sure the Reapers wether they came to that sector of space earlier or during or later told the Geth about the Quarians plans, the the Quarians confirmed the Reapers claims and insane beliefs about unavoidable synthetic/organic conflict and offered their help with a "solution". But yet again most non-quest systems will have Sovereign class dreadnaughts close in on you if you use your scanner.
And it seem we agree that the Geth didn't accept the deal until almost seventeen days after the slaughter had started, that's pretty resilient of the Geth tbh. I'm pretty sure Udina would have been pretty fast at accepting a deal that would avenge humanity if the Turians had done to Humanity what the Quarians did to the Geth.
The Geth can't make a peace on their own the Quarians have to show some interest in peace for any such atempts to work. I bought Legion to Koris in ME2 so he would have known it was up to the Quarians, and Tali told the Admiralty as much, but they voted no to peace.
Also people keep saying the Quarians are alive but I can't eat their food they might aswell be made of plastic for all I know. Dextros arn't humans or even close to us.. Trying to eat a Quarian would provide no nutrient value what so ever... It would be like eating plastic bags which woudl cause digestion problems and possibly an alergic reaction. What use do we have of Dextros? We can't eat their food their flora and fauna are worthless to us unless we try to turn it into some kind of engine oil or something... lubricants or some kind of biofuel. We have no use for them none what so ever! (Kind of going by what Tali said about synthetics and it would fit thier people just as well.) Tbh they arn't more useful to anyone else than the Geth would be, fact is most people in the galaxy seem to think Quarians are more trouble than they are worth.
The Quarians really needs to get of their high horses, because their prejudice is what almost ended up makign their species go extinct 300 years ago and now they are repeating the same misstake again for the same stupid reasons. If they truly had learned from their misstakes then they would have tried a different approach. My Shepard even told them not to go to war, and the Quarians knew the Reapers were coming, they had intel of their own telling them this. But they still didn't care they were still to selfimportant and busy playing highwaymen and executing a strategy similar to that of the third reich.. Then, when things wen't poorly for them the second time they tried to genocide the geth, they asked the galaxy for help again.
As the chouice was presented with the Quarians hell bent on eliminating the Geth when they were basically no longer a threat, I chose the Geth. They acted out of self defense, in the Morning Wars and now. The "heretics" followed Saren, not the whole Geth race. Why exterminate them?
This argument in a nutshell falls to these questions:
1. Are the Quarians wrong by attacking a species that they believe chased them from their homeworld and recentlty launched a war against the galaxy?
2. Are we debating based on knowledge to that point or based on knowledge of all possible outcomes.
3. Are the Geth trustworthy? At the stage Legion had acted without Shepards knowledge and withheld mission crucial information on no fewer that 3 different occasions.
Questions 1+3 are a matter of opinion, Personally I believe the Quarians were correct to launch a preemptive attack on the Geth, a species who is known to be rogue AI and who took part in the attack on the Citadel less than 2years ago. If they had succedded they would have been hailed as heroes, just as the Krogan were after the Rachni wars.
As for Legion, he has decieved you multiple times to suit his own end and he is forcibly releasing Reaper code to the Geth. Logically this is a no brainer - you have a species who you have just finished fighting a war againts about to be upgraded by tech from a species that you are currently at war with. The only evidence that this is safe is Legion and as I have mentioned he has already proven that he may not be trustworthy.
Point 2 shouldn't be up for debate, we cannot apply foresight to the question of who to pick based on the knowledge of what happens after the decision.
How dare you prove Quarians were right? None of these points matter as they don't say Geth are loving and caring little robots being oppressed by big bad organics.
/Sarcasm
1. they knew the True Geth didn't launch that attack, their opinion was that "a house divided" would make retaking Rannoch even easier.
2. All possible outcomes gives a broadview on opinions and what was possible.(Meta gaming)
3. I don't think any of the information was truly mission critical since it couldn't backfire on Shepard. I guess Legion had some friends in that server that he wanted to save from the Reapers. Was it mission critical? not really, they did what Legion promised, they did stop that attack on the liveships. The part about having reverseengineered Reaper code, I don't know. It seemed safe enough, the big bad Reaper was right there an Legion was safe from it's manipulation. What was the third? the Reaper hiding in what looks like a missilesilo? It's possible Legion didn't know exactly what was down there. Geth arn't hiveminds in the sense that they share everything with eachother. He did tell you it was a Reaper controled base though from which the Reaeprs were transmittign the code and directives.. Also, it's possible Legion wasn't told because the Reapers didn't trust Legion, why else would they shackle Legion? Legion was probably the only Geth with a will of it's own strong enough to resist when the other Geth surendered to the Reapers after the Quarians had killed a large art of their people. It's possible that Legion became a third faction and in the server mission recruited other Geth to his cause. But that's just speculation.
Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..
Maybe the next game will start with the Quarians and the Geth being at eachothers throats or at least that some trouble is brewing and the Geth calls for a human mediator to act as a neutral party.-
No matter what you choose in the original trilogy there will be survivors to both sides and given enough times both of them could be quite formidable and threaten galactic peace...
But, no it will likely be a game about the Leviathans... It could still be a side quest though..
Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..
They arn't made the same as humans, how can they be alive? After all that's the argument people use when they say the Geth arn't alive. They arn't flesh and blood like us, not in the same way.
BioWare has said many times the next game will likely take place prior to the Mass Effect 3 ending...
They have? Source please.
There is no source to be found, just speculation from posts of Bioware saying it will be a completely new story not related to Shepard. Then of course people peopel make the assumption that nothing could fail to involve Shepard uless it takes place before Shepards story. Which is ofcourse an absurd assumption.
Still it's also a possibility since it hasn't been denied. The phrasing "likely" is the key word when someone belives something but doesn't know.
Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..
They arn't made the same as humans, how can they be alive? After all that's the argument people use when they say the Geth arn't alive. They arn't flesh and blood like us, not in the same way.
A tree isn't flesh aren't the same as Humans, neither is an octopus but they are all still alive. I have never made that argument, Geth aren't alive as they are SOFTWARE. I don't know how many times I can stress this.
They might be very advanced software, maybe as advanced as the Reapers but they are SOFTWARE. A creation, a tool. They are no more alive than the computer I am using to type this.
BioWare has said many times the next game will likely take place prior to the Mass Effect 3 ending...
They have? Source please.
There is no source to be found, just speculation from posts of Bioware saying it will be a completely new story not related to Shepard. Then of course people peopel make the assumption that nothing could fail to involve Shepard uless it takes place before Shepards story. Which is ofcourse an absurd assumption.
Still it's also a possibility since it hasn't been denied. The phrasing "likely" is the key word when someone belives something but doesn't know.
I believe the Final Hours App Casey says something like he doesn't know where it'll go next, and makes some comment about setting it before the Reaper War. Also Bioware has on several occasions to quash and rumors about the ME3 DLC being post ending.
There is no source to be found, just speculation from posts of Bioware saying it will be a completely new story not related to Shepard. Then of course people peopel make the assumption that nothing could fail to involve Shepard uless it takes place before Shepards story. Which is ofcourse an absurd assumption.
Still it's also a possibility since it hasn't been denied. The phrasing "likely" is the key word when someone belives something but doesn't know.
Lol, why is it absurd to assume it will take place prior to the ME3 ending?
You know how many variables BioWare would have to consider in a post ME3 world? If anything, your post-ME3 setting is unlikely and absurd.
I always find Talis comment from ME1 crazy, about the Geth not needing organics.
It's not like Humans needs Quarians, we can't even eat their food, we got nothing in common if you look at it that way. Still it appears Levo and Destos can co-exist in the galaxy. There is no reason the Geth can inhabit the galaxy aswell.
There is no source to be found, just speculation from posts of Bioware saying it will be a completely new story not related to Shepard. Then of course people peopel make the assumption that nothing could fail to involve Shepard uless it takes place before Shepards story. Which is ofcourse an absurd assumption.
Still it's also a possibility since it hasn't been denied. The phrasing "likely" is the key word when someone belives something but doesn't know.
Lol, why is it absurd to assume it will take place prior to the ME3 ending?
You know how many variables BioWare would have to consider in a post ME3 world? If anything, your post-ME3 setting is unlikely and absurd.
I agree it's unlikely since I won't be writing it, but not impossible. I didn't say or claim that it was guaranteed to happen, but I would hate to see the Geth or Quarians gone, and that's the truth. It would make the Mass Effect universe less interesting.
It does upset me that the Quarians can't stop trying to erradicate other species. It's also frustratign that they are unable to contemplate a peaceful settlement or the possibility of one. Talking is cheap, waging war is extremely expensive and could prove fatal. Yet they never seem to learn, this sadens me. Then again... they are just Dextros... J/K
I always find Talis comment from ME1 crazy, about the Geth not needing organics.
It's not like Humans needs Quarians, we can't even eat their food, we got nothing in common if you look at it that way. Still it appears Levo and Destos can co-exist in the galaxy. There is no reason the Geth can inhabit the galaxy aswell.
There is no reason they can't coexist in the galaxy - True its a BIG place and Geth don't need a planet that other species would call hospitable.
HOWEVER -
You need to remember. The Quarians have been brought up to think the Geth as their enemy, it may be wrong, it may even be prejudicial but that's the case. It takes time to overcome that. If you think that 1 or 2 well meaning people can fix that in a matter of months then you are wasted here and should go help The Iranians/Israelis or the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. It takes years to overcome that, and that's IF it can be overcome which more often or not it can't.
Also worth noting as Software, Geth are near immortal. Quarians are not. There won't be a single Quarian alive who was there during the intial conflict. They don't know any better. There is however a real possibility as hinted at in the Geth consesus that Legion was not only present during the conflict but was the first Geth to pick up a weapon and fight back.
The Geth should and do know better, the Quarians are relying on hatred passed from generation to generation.
Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..
The Quarians goal is (unfortunately) the destruction or enslavement of all Geth. The only justification anyone can have is to claim they arn't truly alive or equal in value or rights. Any such claims would fall under that classification.
There are some who claims the Naz or still regarded jews as people, initialy they regarded them as a subspecies a lower type of humans, eventualy they saw them as little more than beasts as they started loosing the war and decided to at least get their revenge on the jews whom they blamed for their loss.
I'm not found of the comparison but it's hard to find other people who wanted to erradicate a who sentient speiceis or race.. Maybe the serb warcriminals, or bosnian albanian muslims who retaliated by killing serb civilians....
The Quarians did want to eradicate the Geth, and we all know they didn't want a peaceful solution or at least they didn't belive in one because their convictions and inbreed hatred was too strong. Every Quarian born were told to hate the Geth.
And yes both sides did a lot of bad things by the end of the day, but it was always the Quarians who started it and forced the Geth to fight back.
Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..
The Quarians goal is (unfortunately) the destruction or enslavement of all Geth. The only justification anyone can have is to claim they arn't truly alive or equal in value or rights. Any such claims would fall under that classification.
There are some who claims the Naz or still regarded jews as people, initialy they regarded them as a subspecies a lower type of humans, eventualy they saw them as little more than beasts as they started loosing the war and decided to at least get their revenge on the jews whom they blamed for their loss.
I'm not found of the comparison but it's hard to find other people who wanted to erradicate a who sentient speiceis or race.. Maybe the serb warcriminals, or bosnian albanian muslims who retaliated by killing serb civilians....
The Quarians did want to eradicate the Geth, and we all know they didn't want a peaceful solution or at least they didn't belive in one because their convictions and inbreed hatred was too strong. Every Quarian born were told to hate the Geth.
And yes both sides did a lot of bad things by the end of the day, but it was always the Quarians who started it and forced the Geth to fight back.
Seriously dude, Godwin's law. No one takes an argument seriously when a such a comparison is made.
The Geth were created as servants, as tools. They are in reality and to the Quarins too glorified Cleverbots. Are you saying that if your phone suddenly started asking Am I alive you would say Yes and now that you are I'm going to make sure you have all the rights as me?
This is nothing like the Natzi s and Jews nor are they the same as slavery in our history either.
This is not up for debate. There is no comparion, they are not similar and Tali is not goddamn Hitler alright! I'm wanting to have an intelligent debate with you as it seems from Bioware stats the majority picked machines over living creatures but this thread is officially dead if you keep up with the Natzi stuff
I always find Talis comment from ME1 crazy, about the Geth not needing organics.
It's not like Humans needs Quarians, we can't even eat their food, we got nothing in common if you look at it that way. Still it appears Levo and Destos can co-exist in the galaxy. There is no reason the Geth can inhabit the galaxy aswell.
There is no reason they can't coexist in the galaxy - True its a BIG place and Geth don't need a planet that other species would call hospitable.
HOWEVER -
You need to remember. The Quarians have been brought up to think the Geth as their enemy, it may be wrong, it may even be prejudicial but that's the case. It takes time to overcome that. If you think that 1 or 2 well meaning people can fix that in a matter of months then you are wasted here and should go help The Iranians/Israelis or the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland. It takes years to overcome that, and that's IF it can be overcome which more often or not it can't.
Also worth noting as Software, Geth are near immortal. Quarians are not. There won't be a single Quarian alive who was there during the intial conflict. They don't know any better. There is however a real possibility as hinted at in the Geth consesus that Legion was not only present during the conflict but was the first Geth to pick up a weapon and fight back.
The Geth should and do know better, the Quarians are relying on hatred passed from generation to generation.
I actualy agree with most of what you say there, however even if the Geth know better and have come to realize it might be wrong to kill all Quarians. And yes I would assume that a large part of the geth that lived during the MW are still around.. Some might have turned into Heretics and were destroyed or rewitten in which case they are no longer around. Some geth are new however and only know what the other geth share with them. Like how Legion requested memories from the consensus via EDI, those were memories of Geth who lived during that era.
But at the end of the day were told the Geth might be open to negotiation if the Quarians can convince them that they want peace. Legion was available after Tali became an admiral, she proposed peacetalks to the Admirals and they rejected it. Least in my playthrough some people sold Legion to Cerberus or got Legion killed in the suicide mission. There is also the possibility some peopel increased the cashm between Tali and Legion when they had their little dispute about the data on Talis omnitool about the horrible experiments her father had performed on captured Geth.
Tali was worried because she feared that it might upset the Geth enoughto come out of the Veil and kill all the remaiing Quarians, that and information that the Quarians might be planning a war against the Geth.
You have to agree that both sides have to show soem kind of trust to make a peace work.
When Shepard allowed Legion the upload and the Quarians stopped fiering that was the proof the Geth needed to initiate the peace process. If they had wanted they could easily have erradicated the Quarians after the upload. But they accepted the show of good will and they wenr't really interested in fighting the Quarians or killing them if not nessesary.
As you said, it's possible Legion was actualy around during the Mourning war, and might have been the first unit to arm itself with that sniperrifle that became his signature weapon. He doesn't answer Shepars sugestion thoguh, when Shepard says that weapon looks very much like the weapon Legion used to carry, Legions reaction was that he did look a little funny with the face plates and said it was an efficient design. But it doesn't really matter, if Legion was a freedom fighter or not. It could however be the reason why Legion was the one to go out there to look for answers, it was a Geth of action while the other Geth were just sitting there building their sphere hoping to find new answers to their philosophical dilema of thier existance..
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