4712 réponses à ce sujet

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

bigstig wrote...

So Dextros aren't alive now?

Somebody tell Garrus and all the other Turians.

Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..

They arn't made the same as humans, how can they be alive? After all that's the argument people use when they say the Geth arn't alive. They arn't flesh and blood like us, not in the same way.

Now I heard everything. So the only things alive are humans and Geth?

Sane people should leave this thread before they go bat sh!t crazy. Specially the Quarian side.

[Stigweird85]

Both sides need to make an effort for peace TRUE
Tali and Legion do start talking to an extent TRUE
Legion is a Peace envoy for the Geth - Not sure on this one

Putting my main issue aside (i.e. The Geth are SOFTWARE, so no different that my computer OS)
my other issue is with that last sentence.

It is my understanding that once upgraded the Geth fire on the liveships. NOT the milatary force but the ships containing the food resources and most likely the women and children. The civillian population. Even in War targetting civillians is a big No No. By doing this the Geth commit two different war crimes. One attacking non combatants and two Genocide by effectivly destroying their supply chain.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I understand why the Geth did what they did.

Their allying with the Reapers is understandable.

That doesn't make it acceptable, so they die.

[shodiswe]

bigstig wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

bigstig wrote...

So Dextros aren't alive now?

Somebody tell Garrus and all the other Turians.

Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..

The Quarians goal is (unfortunately) the destruction or enslavement of all Geth. The only justification anyone can have is to claim they arn't truly alive or equal in value or rights. Any such claims would fall under that classification.

There are some who claims the Naz or still regarded jews as people, initialy they regarded them as a subspecies a lower type of humans, eventualy they saw them as little more than beasts as they started loosing the war and decided to at least get their revenge on the jews whom they blamed for their loss.

I'm not found of the comparison but it's hard to find other people who wanted to erradicate a who sentient speiceis or race.. Maybe the serb warcriminals, or bosnian albanian muslims who retaliated by killing serb civilians....

The Quarians did want to eradicate the Geth, and we all know they didn't want a peaceful solution or at least they didn't belive in one because their convictions and inbreed hatred was too strong. Every Quarian born were told to hate the Geth.

And yes both sides did a lot of bad things by the end of the day, but it was always the Quarians who started it and forced the Geth to fight back.

Seriously dude, Godwin's law. No one takes an argument seriously when a such a comparison is made.

The Geth were created as servants, as tools. They are in reality and to the Quarins too glorified Cleverbots. Are you saying that if your phone suddenly started asking Am I alive you would say Yes and now that you are I'm going to make sure you have all the rights as me?

This is nothing like the Natzi s and Jews nor are they the same as slavery in our history either.

This is not up for debate. There is no comparion, they are not similar and Tali is not goddamn Hitler alright! I'm wanting to have an intelligent debate with you as it seems from Bioware stats the majority picked machines over living creatures but this thread is officially dead if you keep up with the Natzi stuff

My phone won't be doing anything like that.

What they were initialy created to be has little relevance at this point, since they are no longer what they were.

Second if my phone would grow legs and walk of I would be slighly concerned but it woudln't cause my bancrupsy. It would however tell me that the desing was flawed as it was supposed to be a tool and that I need a phone that doesn't do that. So I would get a new one. I would probably find the old one slightly to creepy to use and would prefer one that doesn't judge me.
Would I get a gun and try to shoot it? Why bother?

Secondly, how would you compare the murder of all Geth to a reallife event? Or am I missing some kind of redefinition saying they are nothing more than scrapmetal, silicon and plastic and above all the property of theQuarian people? there for it's not comparable?  Reclassification of the victims?

It annoys me more when people can't accept the truth and hides behinds walls of deception to make terrible things seem harmless. The Geth had wealth and property they wanted and the Quarians choose to aquire it over their dead bodies. Or as they phrase it over the recycled scrappiles.

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

The Codex Entry "Mass Relays" for ME3. It states that the Reapers use the Mass Relays with impunity to get around, and the Codex entry "Desperate Measures" talks about blowing the Relays to delay Reaper invasion. There is your proof.
And also, Engineer Adams told you on the Normandy SR-1 that going to FTL is like lighting off a flare to anyone around you. Impossible to miss on sensors. So YES, the quarians would be unable to miss a Reaper Destroyer.

Also, did you actually forget the Normandy is a Stealth Ship??. One that Cerberus upgraded to be able to fly at FTL without disengaging the Stealth drive - a feature the Reapers never bothered to get, given how they are detected so damn easily when they enter a system.
Honestly, this is stuff that anyone reading the lore would know about.

None of this answers the question Silver.  I said provide proof that a ship can see another ship while in a Mass Relay?  You are bending time and space and converting a ship into a massless object to propel it through space and time at speeds far exceeding the speed of light.  So I see no evidence that the Quarians or anyone else would be able to see a Reaper as it is in the Mass Relay.  Entering a mass relay is essentially entering a place that is outside time and space.

Second the Normandy being a stealth ship is irrelevant.  We are talking about the path you have to take to reach the Perseus Veil.  That path does not change depending on if you are a stealth ship or not.  In the below link nothing says you have to go through the Far Rim in order to get to the Perseus Veil.

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Mass_relays

Look I don't want speculation, I want definitive evidence as to why you think if a war is being waged in the Far Rim that the Reapers have to go through the Far Rim to get to Rannoch.  The Perseus Veil is it's own cluster with it's own Mass Relay.  I can get to it via the Mass Relay and don't have to stop in the Far Rim to say high to the Geth and Quarians.

[shodiswe]

bigstig wrote...

Both sides need to make an effort for peace TRUE
Tali and Legion do start talking to an extent TRUE
Legion is a Peace envoy for the Geth - Not sure on this one

Putting my main issue aside (i.e. The Geth are SOFTWARE, so no different that my computer OS)
my other issue is with that last sentence.

It is my understanding that once upgraded the Geth fire on the liveships. NOT the milatary force but the ships containing the food resources and most likely the women and children. The civillian population. Even in War targetting civillians is a big No No. By doing this the Geth commit two different war crimes. One attacking non combatants and two Genocide by effectivly destroying their supply chain.

It was an efficient strategy since that broke the Quarians battle groups and made them disorganized and easier to kill.
The Quarians did the same when they attacked the Geths sphere. The sphere was filled with billions of defenceless geth and only a few platforms and ships defending it.

They did it because the Sphere increased the computing power of the Geth and in essence destroying it hurt the Geth supplylines and ability to opperate andcoordinate a response, this also made the Geth desperate enough to accept the Reapers aid as the Quarians started to kill billions and the Geth lost the last bit of strength and hope for survival on their own.

Both of them employed the same strategy, the thing is, you regard one side as worth less than the other and therefor expendable. This is also why the naz comment upsets you so much since it's actualy true, the Geth are assigned a lower value than the Quarians.
The Quarians or the people devaluating the walue of Geth lives arn't n azi from germany but they subscribe to similar values in this case saying that one side has a superior value that the other lacks and they are therefor expendable.

Most Quarian Vs Geth debates commes down to their status as lifeforms rather than who they are or what they do, or what their crimes are. I prefer not to go there and I've avoided it for the most part but when everythign else has been deconstructed it's sadly the last thigns that remains. They are not people soem will say. And there you got it.

Also note that the shere didn't orbit rannoch the homeworld that the Quarians wanted to reclaim. They simply targeted the largest concentration of defenceless Geth to weaken the enemy/victims as fast as possible. Like nukign cities or liveships to disrupt the enemys supplylines.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 avril 2013 - 04:32 .

[S.A.K]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I understand why the Geth did what they did.

Their allying with the Reapers is understandable.

That doesn't make it acceptable, so they die.

+1 Simple and fair enough.

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The Codex Entry "Mass Relays" for ME3. It states that the Reapers use the Mass Relays with impunity to get around, and the Codex entry "Desperate Measures" talks about blowing the Relays to delay Reaper invasion. There is your proof.
And also, Engineer Adams told you on the Normandy SR-1 that going to FTL is like lighting off a flare to anyone around you. Impossible to miss on sensors. So YES, the quarians would be unable to miss a Reaper Destroyer.

Also, did you actually forget the Normandy is a Stealth Ship??. One that Cerberus upgraded to be able to fly at FTL without disengaging the Stealth drive - a feature the Reapers never bothered to get, given how they are detected so damn easily when they enter a system.
Honestly, this is stuff that anyone reading the lore would know about.

None of this answers the question Silver.  I said provide proof that a ship can see another ship while in a Mass Relay?  You are bending time and space and converting a ship into a massless object to propel it through space and time at speeds far exceeding the speed of light.  So I see no evidence that the Quarians or anyone else would be able to see a Reaper as it is in the Mass Relay.  Entering a mass relay is essentially entering a place that is outside time and space.

Second the Normandy being a stealth ship is irrelevant.  We are talking about the path you have to take to reach the Perseus Veil.  That path does not change depending on if you are a stealth ship or not.  In the below link nothing says you have to go through the Far Rim in order to get to the Perseus Veil.

http://masseffect.wi...iki/Mass_relays

Look I don't want speculation, I want definitive evidence as to why you think if a war is being waged in the Far Rim that the Reapers have to go through the Far Rim to get to Rannoch.  The Perseus Veil is it's own cluster with it's own Mass Relay.  I can get to it via the Mass Relay and don't have to stop in the Far Rim to say high to the Geth and Quarians.

I don't think tey can see it until it commes out the other side of the relay, but it's never been explained in game. thing is the distance between relays are several lighty years and the ship is traveling at very high speeds. It would be very hard to detect something very small that's very far off. But I don't think the writers gave us an answer to that.
It does seem however if  Irecall corectly that the relay becoems slighlty more active right before a ship commes through... Least I think that's what it looks like in the videos. Especialy the side from which they are traveling.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 avril 2013 - 04:29 .

[Auld Wulf]

Let's look at some factors with the quarians.

- Gerrel is inclined towards war and domination.
- Xen wants to brainwash the geth to have her own personal army.
- Gerrel and Xen see eye to eye on a lot of things.
- With the guns strapped to liveships, the quarians have more military force than even the turians.

Let's say that Xen did, in fact, brainwash the geth. Considering all of the above, do you think they'd continue to exist happily ever after? No, Gerrel would find someone else to have a hate fetish for. It's his nature. It's actually in the best interests of the Universe that the geth remain alive and free, as they're a good foil to the quarians.

I don't think many people actually realise and understand how much of a military threat the quarians are. I mean, if they did possess the geth, how long until they decided that they didn't like the elcor, or the volus, or even the turians or the asari?

All of the evidence of quarians thus far has suggested a highly warlike civilisation. Any attempts to broker a peace with the quarians have failed. It's only the threat of absolute extinction that has the quarians stand down.

The quarians aren't as magnanimous as many seem to think. Either that, or Gerrel and Xen were absolute angels somehow in the playthroughs of some people.

I'm actually thankful to the geth. Since the quarians have some mildly Aryan elements to their culture that bother me, and I think that there'd be another massive war right now were it not for the geth. Just sayin'.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 06 avril 2013 - 04:39 .

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

bigstig wrote...

So Dextros aren't alive now?

Somebody tell Garrus and all the other Turians.

Wait, - My god did you actually compare the Quarians to the Third Reich? Goodwins Law has been invoked, abandon thread. No more logical conversation can be obtained here..

They arn't made the same as humans, how can they be alive? After all that's the argument people use when they say the Geth arn't alive. They arn't flesh and blood like us, not in the same way.

Now I heard everything. So the only things alive are humans and Geth?

Sane people should leave this thread before they go bat sh!t crazy. Specially the Quarian side.

No read the bible! Anything non human isn't alive and not created equal!  J/K  Don't mean any of that. Just provoking and pointing out the error of extremist ideals and devaluing others or saying that some are special or chosen. (a lot can be said about that but it would be very upsetting even if a lot of people have upsetting ideas on the values of others, be wary of devaluing the worth of others. Sadly people rarely react unless they or people they care about are targeted in such a fassion)
What I'm saying is that this is what a lot of the Quarian supporters do to the Geth, they devalue their worth as a people or individuals. They say it's right to pick the Quarians because the Geth arn't the same or worth less than the other group.

The thing is, the people who does these things fails to even realize it or refuses to consider it due ot the result it would have on their egos... Therefor they become extremely upset at the accusation that they did something like that.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 avril 2013 - 04:43 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

WRONG on ALL counts.
First off,  you never gave any proof as to why the quarians are supposed to trust one single geth as a valid representitive of his people. If the geth cared about negotiation, the quarians thoughts that surely they would send MORE then one geth - and a geth that isn't even properly connected to the Consensis at that. As well as perhaps, some physical proof? Vacate Rannoch, maybe? Offer to meet on neutral ground, maybe? Come on, the geth want peace yet want the quarians to do all the legwork? Saying both sides need to strive for peace is pretty redundant if you expect one side to do all the work and take all the risk, which is basically what the geth seem to have assumed the quarians would do. I never saw any back and forth between geth and quarians. Just Legion - one geth - with Tali and the Admirals.

Second off, The geth gave themselves the reputation of being impossible to negotiate with, and the Council DID try peace talks before. They sent unarmed diplomatic ships into the Veil, broadcasting on all frequencies that they were unarmed and only wanted to talk. The geth blew them away without hesetation. And AGAIN, The death of those A.I.s was not public knowledge.

Third off, you have done nothing but chastize the quarians, when the geth have shown the same exact 100% neglection for wanting peace.  I didn't see the geth sending out surveys and diplomatic ships to make peaceful contact with the galaxy. I don't see them trying any form of attempt to disclaim the Heretics actions. NOTHING to make them seem like they want open negotiation. You can't say they both had faults, then turn around and try to say it was all on the quarians. And AGAIN, The only reason they attack is because they have not seen any proof of the geth wanting peace either, and because they do not want to float in space waiting for the Reapers to kill them.

The geth refused the oppertunity just as much with their forced isolation. And the quarians did not attack out of hatred of the geth. They attacked to have a world, so they could ensure they would have a future after the Reapers are stopped.

So NO. You replied to the questions with things that were disproven before.

Can you please go back to my post where I say I think you missed where I said both sides showed little desire for peace.  BOTH SIDES.  I simply said that Legion represents the start of the Geth doing so and that his relationship with Tali and Shep create an opportunity.  The past 300 years is irrelevant.  Both sides don't trust each other.  Both sides have little reason to trust each other.  You can continue to mistrust and hate each other or you can take advantage of this new opportunity. 

Legion explains clearly to Shepard why only he was sent.  Orgnanics fear the Geth and so as not to incite them, they sent Legion.  There is no logical reason for the Geth to vacate Rannoch.  The Quarians started the war and lost.  You don't give back land when you are the victor just to be nice.  That is absurd.  Especially when the guys who started it have yet to say you have a right to exist nor have they apologized for starting a war and trying to exterminate you.

Find a reference otherwise that says these ships were UNARMED.  The Normandy routinely takes part in diplomatic missions in the game and it is armed.  Furthermore, explain to me why the Geth should believe these ships come in peace?  Because they say so?  Right the Geth should just believe that the Organics whose laws let to attempts to exterminate them and who just finished killing a harmless AI race really mean it when they say they want peace?  Meanwhile they are amassing a huge fleet outside the PV.  Sorry, to me it sounds like they want to scout out the PV and see what they are up against so they send ships claiming peace while they fly along gathering intel for war.

You have no proof the deah of those AIs was not public knowledge.  It was not public knowledge 300 years later.  At the time it happened, 300 AI which is the number you speculated don't just dissappear without anyone noticing.  There would be chatter and speculation and perhaps even news articles at the time asking where the f**k did these AI go?  The Geth could easily have become aware that these AI magically disappeared on the Citadel because they were living at the time these events occurred.  And then shortly after these AI magically disappear never to be heard from again, the Council is like let's be friends, lol.

So let me repeat there is enough history there for BOTH SIDES to mistrust each other.  However, peace has to start somewhere.  Legion, Tali and Shep is where it could have started.  I hold the Quarians more responsible because they are the ones planning war.  If you are going to plan a war to kill other people then you have the greater responsible to try peaceful means first.  If the Geth were the ones planning war then I would hold them more accountable.  They are not.  The Quarians are.

[Auld Wulf]

@shodiswe

Good job illuminating some of the more... extreme and mentally disturbed ideologies, here. Myself? Man of peace, and someone who dislikes xenophobia. Frankly, I wish more people were like me and less crazy.

[Auld Wulf]

Also interesting is how geth supporters acknowledge the problems of the geth, but quarians are apparently Aryan Perfection. I keep noticing this. It's fascinating. And terrifying.

[Argolas]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Let's look at some factors with the quarians.

- Gerrel is inclined towards war and domination.
- Xen wants to brainwash the geth to have her own personal army.
- Gerrel and Xen see eye to eye on a lot of things.
- With the guns strapped to liveships, the quarians have more military force than even the turians.

Let's say that Xen did, in fact, brainwash the geth. Considering all of the above, do you think they'd continue to exist happily ever after? No, Gerrel would find someone else to have a hate fetish for. It's his nature. It's actually in the best interests of the Universe that the geth remain alive and free, as they're a good foil to the quarians.

I don't think many people actually realise and understand how much of a military threat the quarians are. I mean, if they did possess the geth, how long until they decided that they didn't like the elcor, or the volus, or even the turians or the asari?

All of the evidence of quarians thus far has suggested a highly warlike civilisation. Any attempts to broker a peace with the quarians have failed. It's only the threat of absolute extinction that has the quarians stand down.

The quarians aren't as magnanimous as many seem to think. Either that, or Gerrel and Xen were absolute angels somehow in the playthroughs of some people.

I'm actually thankful to the geth. Since the quarians have some mildly Aryan elements to their culture that bother me, and I think that there'd be another massive war right now were it not for the geth. Just sayin'.

You really do like pointing fingers, don't you.

Xen is insane, that much is clear. But the vast majority of Quarians who support the war clearly do it because of "Keelah se'lai". The dream of living without their suits.

Modifié par Argolas, 06 avril 2013 - 05:03 .

[shodiswe]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Also interesting is how geth supporters acknowledge the problems of the geth, but quarians are apparently Aryan Perfection. I keep noticing this. It's fascinating. And terrifying.

Denial and projection of blame is the best defence when caught with your hand in the cookiejar! (Because there isn't a justifiable explanation) Every five years old knows that.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

As stating the Quarians do not want nor will settle for peace. They just keep firing. Nope they stand down and accept peace,some embrace it,while others have "always" wanted this peace. This is the way you have chosen to interpret the events. Legion is not showing signs of peace,it is showing signs of saving it's people while living free of Reaper control. No matter the cost.

How are the Geth going to "survive" and "defend" themselves if they have no intentions of shooting the Quarians? You forget,when the Geth took Reaper aid the tide of the war turned. The Geth were "attacking" Quarian live ships. (not "surviving" and "defending"). Under Reaper control the Geth went on an offensive campaign,and were fully capable of doing so. The Geth are trying to kill the Quarians. ? Well it is because they chose to become enslaved tools of the Reapers will. The Reapers are trying to kill(Harvest) all civilized life. So yes the Geth are trying to wipe out the Quarians. All Quarians know this. Including Gerrel.

Destroying the Reaper "disables" the attacking Geth ships. At this point Gerrel is under the assumption that peace is not an option. Knowing this and the capability of the Upgraded Geth,Gerrel understands that the Geth are capable and have shown signs of wanting or willing to kill the Quarians. He knows when they come back online they will be able to wipe out his people. Gerrel saw an opportunity to stop this from happening. Is he really wrong for trying to save his people? Do not forget he will also accept peace.

Shepard's enemy is the Reapers. Reaper controlled Geth is an extension of that enemy.

Concerning the law. "Excessive force." Can turn a victim into a criminal.

No one is arguing that in the complete absence of information on the ground that Gherel should not have fired.  He would be completely justified in doing so.  However, Tali/Raan know the situation.  They are told to communicate it to Gherel.  The Quarians keep firing because that communication between Quarians breaks down.  It is their fault I have to kill Rip.  There is no other way around it.  It is their fault.  They can't deliver a simple message between each other to prevent me from having to choose who to exterminate.  A simple f**king message Rip.

So I don't see how you have addressed anything I have said Rip.  Point blank, explain to me who prevents peace in this moment?  I am not talking about 300 years ago.  I am talking about right now in this very moment, who prevents peace in the non-peace options?  One side accepts peace once the other side stops firing.  The other side continues to fire and forces me to decide which side to exterminate.  I exterminate the side that forces me to make the decision.  It is sad and horrible I have to choose one according to the OP but the Quarians left me no choice because their Admirals can't communicate.

What do you want me to do Rip?  Kill the Geth because the Quarians can't talk to each other properly?

Modifié par remydat, 06 avril 2013 - 04:57 .

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

What do you want me to do Rip?  Kill the Geth because the Quarians can't talk to each other properly?

And you want me to allow 17 million people to die in hopes the Geth VI changed his murdering ways?

[S.A.K]

Quoting this post because Remy was not around when it was posted.

S.A.K wrote...

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

This is from the wiki:
"They adopted an extremely isolationist attitude - any ships that
ventured into geth space were immediately attacked and destroyed. While
they prevented any contact by other races with themselves, the geth
monitored communications and the extranet."

So after all this, they send one Geth unit to communicate and everyone was supposed to trust it and start peace talks with it? You do realize how stupid that sounds right? And you just said they are not willing to talk...

It's ok for Geth to kill anything entering their systems, but when they send a Geth everyone should start peace talks with it?
You and your "logic":lol:

I think you guys don't understand when something has already been answered.  I am not suggesting anyone has to trust Legion.  Either you want to try for peace or you don't.  It is completely illogical to send ships when it is clear the Geth don't want to talk but then when it is clear they now want to talk, you suddenly refuse.  

As I said there was no reason for the Geth to believe these ships meant peace when laws still existed saying they should not exist and when the organics just finished trying to kill them and then killed a harmless AI race.

So neither side as much reason to trust the other.  That was the point of the post.  However, all of it is irrelevant.  Legion, Shepard and Tali change the dynamic.  Their developing relationships create an opportunity for peace.  Both sides can continue being stupid or they can talk.  Legion says to the Quarins every time the Quarians think they can win they attack 100% of the time.  He says the Geth need to see some data to see if peace is an option.  What happens? The Quarians keep their perfect 100% mark by attacking once Xen develops a weapon.

So to answer the question once again.   Neither side has much reason to trust the other given the history.  However, Shep, Tali and Legion create an opportunity.  The Quarians refuse that opportunity and launch a war. The Geth for their part could have reached out as well but the difference is they had no immediate plans to try and exterminate the Quarians in a war.  The Quarians had such plans and so they have the greater obligation to exhaust all options.  

Is that clear now or will you claim I have not answered the question?

As I was saying, Legion was just one Geth and back then Tali didn't have much authority. By ME3, if I remember correctly, Legion has cut communications with Tali saying they have trouble reaching consensus or something. If Geth were serious about peace, why didn't they try to communicate in a more open way. Legion was there to solve the situation with the Heretics and he does not suggest anything about doing peace talks. As I quoted from the wiki, Geth have cut all communications with organics and kill anyone trying to approch them. I can't blame the Quarians for attacking at this point. They want their world back and Geth would have attacked if they came peacefully.

[remydat]

Rip504 wrote...

Legion,Shepard.and Tali? Really? The Geth have 300 years of violence. They have killed billions of organics. They kill any organic they please,stay isolated,and cut off all communication to any and all organics. This is the last 300 years of existence of the Geth. Never in the history of the Geth existence have they ever offered peace or shown signs of peaceful intentions. How can one achieve peace under these circumstances? Who would even consider peace an option under these circumstances? Add an invasion,violent warfare,Reaper influence(Reaper controlled Geth)and now it is clear as day the Geth want and strive for peace?

Organics also need to see more from the Geth before all of a sudden magically knowing the Geth want and strive for peace. Based on Legion's actions to help it's people survive and live free of Reaper control. That is it's intentions in ME3,especially in a no peace scenario. Stated in-game.
ME2 Legion is "joining the enemy of my enemy" to survive. Legion is and has always been looking out for it's race. Which is understandable. I just need to know where all of these obvious signs of wanting and striving for peace are at.

Organics have a history of killing synthetics.  So why should the Geth believe these ships came in peace?  Give me one good reason Rip.  And it can't be because they say so.  So please explain to me why the Geth should have believed them as opposed to believing they were there to gather intell for a war? Look, we can play this game all day Rip.  Once again both sides have reason to mistrust each other. BOTH SIDES.  Not just organics.  BOTH SIDES. 

They can both just sit there being stupid for the next 300 years or they can take a chance at peace when it presents itself.  Tali, Legion and Shep are the best chance in 300 years period.

[shodiswe]

Khelish wrote...

remydat wrote...

What do you want me to do Rip?  Kill the Geth because the Quarians can't talk to each other properly?

And you want me to allow 17 million people to die in hopes the Geth VI changed his murdering ways?

That Geth who is not Legion does and says what it belives because that's what the Quarians taught it about life, trust and Quarians doesn't go hand in hand in it's opinions.

It tells Shepard, you can trust the Geth but the Quarians can't be trusted. The real Legion has different views and I think a lot of the geth have views of their own. That's why they tried to build that sphere because everyone wanted to share the computing power for their own personal ideas and thinking. They wanted to build that sphere partly because their hardware and networkign wasn't enough to allow them all the luxury of sufficient processign power for their own wants and personalities.

In a way Legions driverupgrades has freed the geth from this lack of processing power by increasing process efficiency, they no longer need that sphere to allow all geth to be sentient and experience the full benefit of sentience 100% of the time.

[remydat]

bigstig wrote...

It is my understanding that once upgraded the Geth fire on the liveships. NOT the milatary force but the ships containing the food resources and most likely the women and children. The civillian population. Even in War targetting civillians is a big No No. By doing this the Geth commit two different war crimes. One attacking non combatants and two Genocide by effectivly destroying their supply chain.

Those liveships were strapped with guns specifically for this war.  You are not a Civilian when your leaders strap guns on your vehicles and tell you to fire at the enemy.

So no, they did not attack non-combatants.  The liveships were made combatants by the Admirals.  If there is a war crime there, it is the Quarian's who committ it.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

As stating the Quarians do not want nor will settle for peace. They just keep firing. Nope they stand down and accept peace,some embrace it,while others have "always" wanted this peace. This is the way you have chosen to interpret the events. Legion is not showing signs of peace,it is showing signs of saving it's people while living free of Reaper control. No matter the cost.

How are the Geth going to "survive" and "defend" themselves if they have no intentions of shooting the Quarians? You forget,when the Geth took Reaper aid the tide of the war turned. The Geth were "attacking" Quarian live ships. (not "surviving" and "defending"). Under Reaper control the Geth went on an offensive campaign,and were fully capable of doing so. The Geth are trying to kill the Quarians. ? Well it is because they chose to become enslaved tools of the Reapers will. The Reapers are trying to kill(Harvest) all civilized life. So yes the Geth are trying to wipe out the Quarians. All Quarians know this. Including Gerrel.

Destroying the Reaper "disables" the attacking Geth ships. At this point Gerrel is under the assumption that peace is not an option. Knowing this and the capability of the Upgraded Geth,Gerrel understands that the Geth are capable and have shown signs of wanting or willing to kill the Quarians. He knows when they come back online they will be able to wipe out his people. Gerrel saw an opportunity to stop this from happening. Is he really wrong for trying to save his people? Do not forget he will also accept peace.

Shepard's enemy is the Reapers. Reaper controlled Geth is an extension of that enemy.

Concerning the law. "Excessive force." Can turn a victim into a criminal.

No one is arguing that in the complete absence of information on the ground that Gherel should not have fired.  He would be completely justified in doing so.  However, Tali/Raan know the situation.  They are told to communicate it to Gherel.  The Quarians keep firing because that communication between Quarians breaks down.  It is their fault I have to kill Rip.  There is no other way around it.  It is their fault.  They can't deliver a simple message between each other to prevent me from having to choose who to exterminate.  A simple f**king message Rip.

So I don't see how you have addressed anything I have said Rip.  Point blank, explain to me who prevents peace in this moment?  I am not talking about 300 years ago.  I am talking about right now in this very moment, who prevents peace in the non-peace options?  One side accepts peace once the other side stops firing.  The other side continues to fire and forces me to decide which side to exterminate.  I exterminate the side that forces me to make the decision.  It is sad and horrible I have to choose one according to the OP but the Quarians left me no choice because their Admirals can't communicate.

What do you want me to do Rip?  Kill the Geth because the Quarians can't talk to each other properly?

Uh, Gherel stops firing if you tell him the situation. If you don't, it's because the player screwed something up and didn't meet the given parameters such as squad mate dead or unloyal. In this case he don't have a reason not to believe the Geth wouldn't fire when they come to their senses.

[shodiswe]

remydat wrote...

bigstig wrote...

It is my understanding that once upgraded the Geth fire on the liveships. NOT the milatary force but the ships containing the food resources and most likely the women and children. The civillian population. Even in War targetting civillians is a big No No. By doing this the Geth commit two different war crimes. One attacking non combatants and two Genocide by effectivly destroying their supply chain.

Those liveships were strapped with guns specifically for this war.  You are not a Civilian when your leaders strap guns on your vehicles and tell you to fire at the enemy.

So no, they did not attack non-combatants.  The liveships were made combatants by the Admirals.  If there is a war crime there, it is the Quarian's who committ it.

I guess it makese sense to target the big glass cannons first sicne they can cause a lot of damage and are relatively easy to desroy. The Quarians should have seen this comming.
Just as a starwars player can be pretty sure their siege tanks will be targeted early on because they do a lot of damage but are easily destroyed unless protected adequately, which is nearly impossible. Strapping big guns to schoolbusses are rarely a good idea in wars, especialy when you got your kids in them.

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

bigstig wrote...

It is my understanding that once upgraded the Geth fire on the liveships. NOT the milatary force but the ships containing the food resources and most likely the women and children. The civillian population. Even in War targetting civillians is a big No No. By doing this the Geth commit two different war crimes. One attacking non combatants and two Genocide by effectivly destroying their supply chain.

Those liveships were strapped with guns specifically for this war.  You are not a Civilian when your leaders strap guns on your vehicles and tell you to fire at the enemy.

So no, they did not attack non-combatants.  The liveships were made combatants by the Admirals.  If there is a war crime there, it is the Quarian's who committ it.

Not sure about the war crimes part. But for once I can agree with you.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

remydat wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

As stating the Quarians do not want nor will settle for peace. They just keep firing. Nope they stand down and accept peace,some embrace it,while others have "always" wanted this peace. This is the way you have chosen to interpret the events. Legion is not showing signs of peace,it is showing signs of saving it's people while living free of Reaper control. No matter the cost.

How are the Geth going to "survive" and "defend" themselves if they have no intentions of shooting the Quarians? You forget,when the Geth took Reaper aid the tide of the war turned. The Geth were "attacking" Quarian live ships. (not "surviving" and "defending"). Under Reaper control the Geth went on an offensive campaign,and were fully capable of doing so. The Geth are trying to kill the Quarians. ? Well it is because they chose to become enslaved tools of the Reapers will. The Reapers are trying to kill(Harvest) all civilized life. So yes the Geth are trying to wipe out the Quarians. All Quarians know this. Including Gerrel.

Destroying the Reaper "disables" the attacking Geth ships. At this point Gerrel is under the assumption that peace is not an option. Knowing this and the capability of the Upgraded Geth,Gerrel understands that the Geth are capable and have shown signs of wanting or willing to kill the Quarians. He knows when they come back online they will be able to wipe out his people. Gerrel saw an opportunity to stop this from happening. Is he really wrong for trying to save his people? Do not forget he will also accept peace.

Shepard's enemy is the Reapers. Reaper controlled Geth is an extension of that enemy.

Concerning the law. "Excessive force." Can turn a victim into a criminal.

No one is arguing that in the complete absence of information on the ground that Gherel should not have fired.  He would be completely justified in doing so.  However, Tali/Raan know the situation.  They are told to communicate it to Gherel.  The Quarians keep firing because that communication between Quarians breaks down.  It is their fault I have to kill Rip.  There is no other way around it.  It is their fault.  They can't deliver a simple message between each other to prevent me from having to choose who to exterminate.  A simple f**king message Rip.

So I don't see how you have addressed anything I have said Rip.  Point blank, explain to me who prevents peace in this moment?  I am not talking about 300 years ago.  I am talking about right now in this very moment, who prevents peace in the non-peace options?  One side accepts peace once the other side stops firing.  The other side continues to fire and forces me to decide which side to exterminate.  I exterminate the side that forces me to make the decision.  It is sad and horrible I have to choose one according to the OP but the Quarians left me no choice because their Admirals can't communicate.

What do you want me to do Rip?  Kill the Geth because the Quarians can't talk to each other properly?

Uh, Gherel stops firing if you tell him the situation. If you don't, it's because the player screwed something up and didn't meet the given parameters such as squad mate dead or unloyal. In this case he don't have a reason not to believe the Geth wouldn't fire when they come to their senses.

Gerrel only stops if he's outvoted by the other Admirals.. Which would be Tali and Koris..... Raan is unavaialbe due to crashlanding unless Tali isn't there... What I wonder though is why Xen never says anything at that point? too busy or uncertain what to say? Maybe a plot hole... Or maybe she's right there with Gerrel telling him to stop because she's seeing the upload happening but we never hear it.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 avril 2013 - 05:23 .