That's still different. EDI has Adams, Traynor, and the entire Normandy Crew on-hand to pull the plug if she goes berserk. What fail-safe is there for Legion if he screws up? EDI let everyone know what she was doing and when, so that someone could stop it. Legion kept it to himself.
That conversation is from ME3. Adams is shocked to learn this in ME3. She has had the Reaper IFF since the IFF mission in ME2. So she did not let everyone know what she as doing and when. They only just find out about it in ME3.
And pull what plug? What's to stop EDI from shutting off all the Air and Life Support systems to the ship and lock the doors with access to any suits with oxygen? It's not like she is going to say, "hey guys about to go berserk in an hour, be prepared."
Thats why I said not sure. *facepalm* Can't even agree with you without taking sh!t-storm from you.
Did I attack you or use offensive language. That was not a **** storm. That was me explaining why I made the statement I did and providing a link that discusses the issue of human shields.
Not everything is meant to be an attack.
S.A.K wrote...
Gherel thinks he can take the Geth and he does not get enough information. Now you tell me this, wouldn't the Geth have fired if Quarian ships approched Rannoch before the war, even if these were unarmed civilian ships? And why didn't the Geth just leave Rannoch after the Morning war? Legion says they do not use the planet. If they did, quarians wouldn't have to start the war. Don't tell me Geth were too stupid to undestand Quarians would want their world back.
This still ignores the question. I understand why he does what he does. That does not change the fact I am forced to decide who to exterminate because the Quarians can't communicate with each other. Once again, whose fault is it, I am forced to decide? Now who is avoiding the simple question.
Agreed on the first part.
About the second part : Failure to communicate is Quarians fault but it was also upto Shepard. If you want to make your choice based on just one factor, there is no point in this debate now is there? Likewise I can side with the Quarians because they sided with the Reapers or that they were always trying to kill Shepard for one reason or another. Prettymuch only Geth that don't try this is Legion and even he tries to kill Shepard if you don't side with it. Only plus point I can think of Legion is that he is ready to die for his people. So is Tali and most other Quarians. Tali or even Raan don't try to attack Shepard, most likely they undestand that destroying the Reapers is more imortant than their race.
Another few points : Shepards job was to kill the Reapers at any cost. Not enslave them and specially not rewrite people's DNA. No body has the right to do that. Death of the Geth is a small price to kill the Reapers and I don't think anyone will miss the Geth either. EDI was ready to die to stop the Reapers. I am not sure about Geth. They shown that they are willing to go to any length to survive, even going as far as sacrificing their own free will. I don't see how I can trust a race like that. It's more than likely they will turn on the council races if they ever try to impose rules on them (as every other species. I am not talking about the laws against AI which would obviously be changed). If nothing else, the choice about Reaper code was theirs and I don't feel responsible when they die because of it.
By condemning the Quarians, you are comdemning all those nice Quarians you meet in ME2 (dunno about you but I never met a hostile Quarian), lots of women and children and Tali who was arguably the most loyal squad mate and she trust Shepard more than anyone else. I am not gonna betray all those people for a synthatic race who were constantly trying to kill Shepard for one reason or another. Legion just showed up at the end on ME2 and it's reaons was dealing with the Heretics that threaten the Geth. Tali was their from the start and the galaxy would be screwed without her evidance, by Geth hands I must add(Heretics are Geth too). They don't even show interest in dealing with the Heretics untill they threaten their sorry a**es. And I personally value natural life over synthatic life anyday.
Geth isolated themselves after killing billions of Quarians. They even kill anyone trying to contact them. I fail to see why any organic should not fear or hate the Geth. As the destruction of all other AIs happened in the same year, Geth most likely scared the council enough to kill many harmless AIs. If Legion was an attept to show their good will and they are open for peace, it was a stupid attept. They were still killing anyone entering their systems(as shown in ME2 Haestrom) and they were still not making any radio contact. Legion was there to deal with heretics and little else. He is ready to kill Shepard if he do not agree (as shown in siding with Quarians). It wanted to upload the code so that they can kill the Quarians (as shown in Geth exterminating every Quarian in side with Geth) and also Join the Reapers willingly(it was not under reaper control when we find it). Even if I care about Legion(I don't btw), it die anyway and there is no reason to feel sorry about rest of the Geth (they asked for it by holding Rannoch, siding with Reapers, letting Heretics almost destroy the galaxy, killing billions and keep killing, failure to communicate, etc). By siding with the Geth, I would loose both Legion and Tali (I am not stupid enough to this she'll want to live after Shepard betray her whole race). Siding with Geth, I only loose Legion who dies regardless.
Funny thing, I keep uncovering ugly stuff about the Geth when ever I think of this. I think I have enough to just outright kill the Geth just like the Reapers. Only way that anyone can convince me Geth are worth saving is to prove Quarians worked with the Reapers...
P.s : Try to look at this as a whole. Not point by point.
Also interesting is how geth supporters acknowledge the problems of the geth, but quarians are apparently Aryan Perfection. I keep noticing this. It's fascinating. And terrifying.
Denial and projection of blame is the best defence when caught with your hand in the cookiejar! (Because there isn't a justifiable explanation) Every five years old knows that.
And yet, you have to invent the proof, or doctor the photo to prove your point. That's not helpful to your point.
Doctor what?!? I see, that's why you arn't even hearing what im saying, you think that the only truth is the one created by your play through and tht Tali never says what she says in other people's playthroughs? The thing is, the link where Tali tells you She was in contact with Legion and was trying to convince the Admirals to speak with Legion, but failed to convince them peace was preferable, commes from a link that you yourself posted.
People also say differnt things depending on how you completed their quests or crew conflicts or if they died and got replaced by someone else.
In the end, the fact stands as this, and this is the short summary. The Quarians decided to go to war and attack. They are the hostile invaders and agressors. The Quarians rejected the possibility of finding a peaceful settlement. Admiral Xen want's to enslave the Geth people, Gerrel wants to crush them.
The Geth did not persue the Quarians after they left. The Geth did not attack people outside the Veil, with the exception of the Heretics that were as much a Geth responsibility as Cerberus are a human responsibility. Legion's loyalty mission was about taking care of that problem, if the Geth or Legion had supported them then they could have ignored them entierly and focused on Shepards mission, because Shepard woudln't have known about their where abouts unless Legion had told Shepard. Why did humanity let Cerberus grow so big, why didn't they send fleets and armies after them? Why didn't they do more? The Geth were "born" on Rannoch, a lot of their infrastucture is still left there, and in a way it's their home aswell, their world of origin. The Geth were forced to drive the Quarians off because the Quarians became hostile and tried to "kill" them, actualy they tried to genocide their whole people. Also despite atempts at mediation with the help of Quarian supporters the Quarian leaders (military) just keept killing the Geth until more and more of them were forced to fight. The council massacered a group of synthetics at the same time on the citadel. Proving they were an antisynthetic group that would not speak to synthetics, insted they used guns on unarmed synthetics just like the Quarians.
Future synthetics will know of past and current crimes against their kind, the future will evolve accordingly. Therefor we know the Quarians are the agressors, we know they will dismiss the possibility of peace at almost every turn, we also know they can't be trusted.
The Quarians repetedly lied, decived and betrayed my shepards confidence. They didn't retreat, they fired everythign they had on the ship my shepard was on, I might have accepted that they hit shield generators and weapon system that could become a problem if the ship commes online again, but to all out bombard the ship is the same as trying to kill me and Tal and whoever else I brought with me. It was never part of the plan to bombard the ship with me on it, it was also reasonable to expect that I would disable as much of the ship and that signal as possible. That doesn't mean they have the right t kill me after I've done them a huge service that they coudln't have accomplished on their own. The only reason my Shepard got out of there was because Legion could show me to the fighterbay and take me out of there before the ship blew up. Legion saved me, the Admirals out there had decided me and Tali were "expendable" or possibly undesirable to have around now that they thought the Geth would be defenceless so they could complete their genocide without any outside witnesses such as a council Spectre. From Gerrels point of view it was a win win situation. We know the Quarian leadership has suspect morals dating back to the MW.
Some of that has probably rubbed of on the Geth aswell but at least Legion didn't lie or try to kill me or sactrifose me, he might not have told the whole truth in every situation however(but it's never something that could hurt me). But at least he was a lot more honest and reliable, depedable than the Quarians. I like Tali because she's learning and evolving, her people however are stuck in their old agressive immoral selfish ways. Least Krogan are honest about what they are doing and who they are, the Quarians are hiding the truth, plans and motives behind that mask of theirs.
Hopefully there will eventualy be a future for the Quarian people where they have learned that lession that keeps elluding them. There will always be a few rotten eggs in the basket, but perhaps a few less of them.
That's how I see it, it's supported by the ingame experience and the judgement of what people did is my own.
Now, of you "love" someone then it's easier to "forgive" her and her people. Some people have gotten so attached to Tali that they might not be able to see what her people are doing. In some cases people devalue the worth of one life in favor of another like people have done in earths past. Whatever the reason people have come to different conclusion as to which should be saved or pittied. The agressor or the one who is forced to act in selfdefence.
Since this argument isn't going anywhere because of emotional attachments it's pointless to continue the debate. Everyone has their point of view or loyalties. I also think it's pretty cheap to claim that ingame videocapture of a person telling you what happend, is the invention of proof. It's pretty straight forward, I'm not trying to divine the truth out of coffestains here, Tali tells us what happend. The Admirals tells us they want to crush the Geth or enslave them. In a way I wonder how those crazies got to become admirals in the first place, maybe their mentors were just as crazy.
One additional problem here is that people played the game differently resulting in characters behivign differently which in turn affects the players view on events and characters.
It's almost like people didn't play the same game when you look at the details, even if it all commes down to the same choices at the end of ME3.
One additional problem here is that people played the game differently resulting in characters behivign differently which in turn affects the players view on events and characters.
It's almost like people didn't play the same game when you look at the details, even if it all commes down to the same choices at the end of ME3.
So are you saying you have more or less perspective on the matter than everyone else?
1. Quarians like Xen are just as prejudiced as the Council. You likely have a full spectrum of people with different views.. In any event, it still doesn't answer the question, what choice did the Quarians give the Geth but to kill them?
2. I think the Geth devoted their processing power to survival during the MW just like EDI mentions how she can devote processing power to being an individual as oppose to more collective ideas. At the end of the MW with their survival secure, they could then devote processing power to determine the Quarian fate and ultimately decided they did not have enough data to wipe them out. The point is, their sense of morality is evolving like any species. You can't expect them to have a full understanding of it when they were just born and it took us millions of years to figure it out and we still struggle with it.
3. Yes but this is speculation. I always interpreted that if you had the coordinates of your final destination, you could plug them in and not have to enter, exit, and re-enter. So the reason organics may have to is because they don't possess all the coordinates. The Reapers built the system so likely know the coordinates to every relay. Also the Mass Relay in Tikkun would be heavily guarded most likely so exiting it would be suicide. This is especially true if Xen's weapon isn't as effective as they think as it hasn't really been tested on large populations of Geth. So it makes more sense to attack the fringes of Geth space as there would be less of a presence and you could test out your weapon and if it doesn't work as well as you expect still be able to escape. In the end, this is all speculation though which is why I was asking if there was something stated clearly in the game or not.
1.) But the problem is that you judge the entire race on Xen. And then try to force that idea of quarian prejudice on Gerrel and Raan. And likewise, what evidence did the geth give the quarians that they were open to negotiation? Because alone with no proof besides word of mouth, Legion wasn't anywhere near prepped or ready to give any form of convincing defense for the geth. And in addendum, what other choice was open to the quarians besides retaking Rannoch?
2.) But they understood spite as well. They obliterated the quarian's ancestroal archives - something that shouldn't have been a priority target in a fight for survival. And there is still the matter of how the geth chose to not acknowledge that there were civilians in their cross-hairs. Even if what you say is true regarding geth "choosing" to focus exclusively on self-preservation, it still explisitly means that they chose not to care about civilian casualties in the war.
3.) But the quarians already would have tested it. They would never have even started a war on the geth unless they thought Xen's weapon worked. Also, we know for an absolue fact that the Reapers having "master control" is not true at all. In the first part of ME3, Hackett tells you in the Comm Room, when you ask how the Reapers hit Earth, that the Reapers surged out of the Arcturus Relay and bull-rushed Arcturus Station to reach the Charon Relay. If the Reapers had master control, why did they need to exit the Arcturus Relay to acess the Charon Relay? If what you claim is true, the Reapers should have been able to "bounce" past them without stopping. Instead, Hackett says that they steamrolled into Arcturus and had to bull-rush past the Alliance fleet to get to the Charon/Earth Relay, with one entire Reaper fleet staying behind to obliterate Arcturus Station, and the rest entering the Relay. So no, the Relays are not interconnected like that. You have to enter, exit, then enter the next. Rinse and repeat. Even the Reapers do this.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 avril 2013 - 08:39 .
That's still different. EDI has Adams, Traynor, and the entire Normandy Crew on-hand to pull the plug if she goes berserk. What fail-safe is there for Legion if he screws up? EDI let everyone know what she was doing and when, so that someone could stop it. Legion kept it to himself.
That conversation is from ME3. Adams is shocked to learn this in ME3. She has had the Reaper IFF since the IFF mission in ME2. So she did not let everyone know what she as doing and when. They only just find out about it in ME3.
And pull what plug? What's to stop EDI from shutting off all the Air and Life Support systems to the ship and lock the doors with access to any suits with oxygen? It's not like she is going to say, "hey guys about to go berserk in an hour, be prepared."
Regardless, she STILL lets him be aware of this. She doesn't try messing with the stuff without crew supervision, or at the very least, awareness of what she's doing.
Also, do you remember the scene after Palaven where Adams was in front of the A.I. core, wearing pressure masks? Those exist for a reason. Also, between all the ship personel, Tali in the engine room, Garrus in the Gun Battery, Liara's self-contained network and servers, her drone Glyph, Javik's natural paranoia of A.I.s, Joker at the helm control, Adams watching the electronics, and Traynor constantly observing the systems, SOMEONE would notice something.
One additional problem here is that people played the game differently resulting in characters behivign differently which in turn affects the players view on events and characters.
It's almost like people didn't play the same game when you look at the details, even if it all commes down to the same choices at the end of ME3.
So are you saying you have more or less perspective on the matter than everyone else?
He seems to think so. He also things that quarians aren't living beings, just because they are dextro-based and are not like us. As though human life is the standerd template of all life everywhere.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 07 avril 2013 - 08:38 .
The lack of them communicating is just one of the many reasons they are at fault.
What more needs to be said than 3:14. 300 years of misery and bloodshed and for what? Because a unit asked if it had a soul. 300 years later and what have the Quarians learned? They once again attack the Geth to solve their problems. They have learned nothing.
Gherel and Xen are not nice. The Quarians are condemned because that is who they chose for leaders and that is who they chose to follow. They are condemend because 3 Admirals (Tali, Koris and Raan) opposed the war but didn't have the balls to stand up for their convinction. How do 3 Admirals oppose the war but yet get outvoted by 2 Admirals. Either the Quarians don't know math or the rest of the Quarians voted for war.
Those 3 could have united and done something. The Quarians who opposed the war could have united and done something. When Gherel suggested strapping guns to liveships, Koris as Admiral of the Civilian Fleet could have refused. At the end of the day the synthetic had more courage to betray his race than the Quarians did. What does that say about the Quarians? It is laughable that the Geth get criticized for their consensus but the Quarians basically valued their consensus over their own principles.
And once again the Geth have no proof those ships came in peace. Give me one good reason the Geth should believe that. There is an armada outside the PV. How does the Geth know these ships are not there to recon and scout the PV in advance of an attack? You guys have avoided that question for like 3 or 4 pages now.
- Our gods disowned us.
When a Quarian kid asks his Dad, why must we strap guns to our ship and shoot at the Geth, his Dad can respond "because we disowned them." When that liveship gets blown out of the sky because it fired on a Geth ship and a Quarian kids asks why he is going to die, his Dad can respond "because we disowned them." You talk of Quarian children but what have their parents taught them? Why did they parents not love them enough to keep them away from war? These a**holes strapped guns to liveships and sent them to war. You want to fault Shep or the Geth for killing them when it is the Quarians who sent their children to war. They die because their sh*tty parents effectively disowned them in favor of war.
1.) But the problem is that you judge the entire race on Xen. And then try to force that idea of quarian prejudice on Gerrel and Raan. And likewise, what evidence did the geth give the quarians that they were open to negotiation? Because alone with no proof besides word of mouth, Legion wasn't anywhere near prepped or ready to give any form of convincing defense for the geth. And in addendum, what other choice was open to the quarians besides retaking Rannoch?
2.) But they understood spite as well. They obliterated the quarian's ancestroal archives - something that shouldn't have been a priority target in a fight for survival. And there is still the matter of how the geth chose to not acknowledge that there were civilians in their cross-hairs. Even if what you say is true regarding geth "choosing" to focus exclusively on self-preservation, it still explisitly means that they chose not to care about civilian casualties in the war.
3.) But the quarians already would have tested it. They would never have even started a war on the geth unless they thought Xen's weapon worked. Also, we know for an absolue fact that the Reapers having "master control" is not true at all. In the first part of ME3, Hackett tells you in the Comm Room, when you ask how the Reapers hit Earth, that the Reapers surged out of the Arcturus Relay and bull-rushed Arcturus Station to reach the Charon Relay. If the Reapers had master control, why did they need to exit the Arcturus Relay to acess the Charon Relay? If what you claim is true, the Reapers should have been able to "bounce" past them without stopping. Instead, Hackett says that they steamrolled into Arcturus and had to bull-rush past the Alliance fleet to get to the Charon/Earth Relay, with one entire Reaper fleet staying behind to obliterate Arcturus Station, and the rest entering the Relay. So no, the Relays are not interconnected like that. You have to enter, exit, then enter the next. Rinse and repeat. Even the Reapers do this.
1. No I judge the entire race for their cowardice. Either the majority of them agreed with the plan to exterminate the Geth or the majority of them were too chicken sh*t to do what is right.
2. What reason was given for them destroying the archives? Can you provide the in-game reference to this as I suspect you are assuming that just because it says archives, it must mean it was harmless. Didn't Shepard just have a shootout in the Citadel Archives? This is war. It can be fought anywhere.
3. The Quarians had no ability to test it with large populations of Geth. They likely didn't even test it on fully functional Geth. It was testedon Geth parts and the like so I don't think they can just assume it would work on large groups of Geth based just on lab tests. Sovereign has been in Geth space before. Have the Reapers been in the local cluster. I would think they would stop at every relay because it has been 50 thousand years since they last paid a house visit. They would probably want to see what's going on in each system. Anyways, this is only tangential to the larger conversation. I will stick with what the game tells me as I don't think the writers intended for there to have been some super secret meetings between the Geth and Reapers pre Quarian attack.
Regardless, she STILL lets him be aware of this. She doesn't try messing with the stuff without crew supervision, or at the very least, awareness of what she's doing.
Also, do you remember the scene after Palaven where Adams was in front of the A.I. core, wearing pressure masks? Those exist for a reason. Also, between all the ship personel, Tali in the engine room, Garrus in the Gun Battery, Liara's self-contained network and servers, her drone Glyph, Javik's natural paranoia of A.I.s, Joker at the helm control, Adams watching the electronics, and Traynor constantly observing the systems, SOMEONE would notice something.
After the fact which is exactly what Legion does. In fact more time has passed between ME2 and ME3 when she tells Adams that passed when Legion reveals he still has Reaper Code. The fact is EDI basically has Reaper Tech in her and crew is not aware of the full extent for months if not years depending on how much time between ME2 and ME3 has elapsed.
And organics have to sleep. Let's be real if EDI wanted to kill the crew, she could do so quite easily. In Joker's mission she seals him in the Engine room and then opens up the airlocks which she notes would kill all the hostiles immediately. She then lets him know when the purge is complete.
Also interesting is how geth supporters acknowledge the problems of the geth, but quarians are apparently Aryan Perfection. I keep noticing this. It's fascinating. And terrifying.
Denial and projection of blame is the best defence when caught with your hand in the cookiejar! (Because there isn't a justifiable explanation) Every five years old knows that.
And yet, you have to invent the proof, or doctor the photo to prove your point. That's not helpful to your point.
Doctor what?!? I see, that's why you arn't even hearing what im saying, you think that the only truth is the one created by your play through and tht Tali never says what she says in other people's playthroughs? The thing is, the link where Tali tells you She was in contact with Legion and was trying to convince the Admirals to speak with Legion, but failed to convince them peace was preferable, commes from a link that you yourself posted.
People also say differnt things depending on how you completed their quests or crew conflicts or if they died and got replaced by someone else.
In the end, the fact stands as this, and this is the short summary. The Quarians decided to go to war and attack. They are the hostile invaders and agressors. The Quarians rejected the possibility of finding a peaceful settlement. Admiral Xen want's to enslave the Geth people, Gerrel wants to crush them.
The Geth did not persue the Quarians after they left. The Geth did not attack people outside the Veil, with the exception of the Heretics that were as much a Geth responsibility as Cerberus are a human responsibility. Legion's loyalty mission was about taking care of that problem, if the Geth or Legion had supported them then they could have ignored them entierly and focused on Shepards mission, because Shepard woudln't have known about their where abouts unless Legion had told Shepard. Why did humanity let Cerberus grow so big, why didn't they send fleets and armies after them? Why didn't they do more? The Geth were "born" on Rannoch, a lot of their infrastucture is still left there, and in a way it's their home aswell, their world of origin. The Geth were forced to drive the Quarians off because the Quarians became hostile and tried to "kill" them, actualy they tried to genocide their whole people. Also despite atempts at mediation with the help of Quarian supporters the Quarian leaders (military) just keept killing the Geth until more and more of them were forced to fight. The council massacered a group of synthetics at the same time on the citadel. Proving they were an antisynthetic group that would not speak to synthetics, insted they used guns on unarmed synthetics just like the Quarians.
Future synthetics will know of past and current crimes against their kind, the future will evolve accordingly. Therefor we know the Quarians are the agressors, we know they will dismiss the possibility of peace at almost every turn, we also know they can't be trusted.
The Quarians repetedly lied, decived and betrayed my shepards confidence. They didn't retreat, they fired everythign they had on the ship my shepard was on, I might have accepted that they hit shield generators and weapon system that could become a problem if the ship commes online again, but to all out bombard the ship is the same as trying to kill me and Tal and whoever else I brought with me. It was never part of the plan to bombard the ship with me on it, it was also reasonable to expect that I would disable as much of the ship and that signal as possible. That doesn't mean they have the right t kill me after I've done them a huge service that they coudln't have accomplished on their own. The only reason my Shepard got out of there was because Legion could show me to the fighterbay and take me out of there before the ship blew up. Legion saved me, the Admirals out there had decided me and Tali were "expendable" or possibly undesirable to have around now that they thought the Geth would be defenceless so they could complete their genocide without any outside witnesses such as a council Spectre. From Gerrels point of view it was a win win situation. We know the Quarian leadership has suspect morals dating back to the MW.
Some of that has probably rubbed of on the Geth aswell but at least Legion didn't lie or try to kill me or sactrifose me, he might not have told the whole truth in every situation however(but it's never something that could hurt me). But at least he was a lot more honest and reliable, depedable than the Quarians. I like Tali because she's learning and evolving, her people however are stuck in their old agressive immoral selfish ways. Least Krogan are honest about what they are doing and who they are, the Quarians are hiding the truth, plans and motives behind that mask of theirs.
Hopefully there will eventualy be a future for the Quarian people where they have learned that lession that keeps elluding them. There will always be a few rotten eggs in the basket, but perhaps a few less of them.
That's how I see it, it's supported by the ingame experience and the judgement of what people did is my own.
Now, of you "love" someone then it's easier to "forgive" her and her people. Some people have gotten so attached to Tali that they might not be able to see what her people are doing. In some cases people devalue the worth of one life in favor of another like people have done in earths past. Whatever the reason people have come to different conclusion as to which should be saved or pittied. The agressor or the one who is forced to act in selfdefence.
Since this argument isn't going anywhere because of emotional attachments it's pointless to continue the debate. Everyone has their point of view or loyalties. I also think it's pretty cheap to claim that ingame videocapture of a person telling you what happend, is the invention of proof. It's pretty straight forward, I'm not trying to divine the truth out of coffestains here, Tali tells us what happend. The Admirals tells us they want to crush the Geth or enslave them. In a way I wonder how those crazies got to become admirals in the first place, maybe their mentors were just as crazy.
My my, didn't YOU go on a tangent. No, that is YOU doing that. YOU aren't the one listening to anything I said. And AGAIN, I already explained the flaw in that: Legion failed to bring any physical proof that he was operating at the behest of the Consensis. If anything, Legion acted alone in his peace attempt.
And Cerberus got so big the same way the Repaers got such a massive army of husks: Reaper implants on civilians. No better then husks with guns. Cerberus WAS small before the Illusive Man used Reaper tech to convert thousands of humans, taken from colonies, and likely from the captured Omega, to make his army. So Cerberus getting so big in six months was NOT anything the Alliance could have stopped at that point. And the Alliance DID try. They sent Anderson and Kahlee Sanders to aid the quarians against the Cerberus attack on their ship, Idenna. They coordinated with the turians in a co-oped strike that nearrly killed the Illusive Man himself. Admiral Kahoku's runs on Cerberus with Shepard, who devestated an entire cell. The Alliance DID do all they could against Cerberus AND openly worked with the Council to do it. Don't critizise THEM.
Also, WRONG. Those recordings in the geth server are PRE-Morning War. And again, you really are judging two entire races on a set of 2-3 vid clips? If that isn't biased interpertation, IDK what is. And AGAIN, that A.I. group on the Citadel was NOT public knowledge. STOP trying to tote it as such when you have zero proof it was EVER a public fact.
And AGAIN, the quarias were NOT agressors by choice, any more then the geth were. In Morning War, the quarians panicked under threat of Council repraisal. In the Rannoch War, they panicked under threat of total extinction by the Reapers. It's NO less sympathetic or defendible then the geth panicking under threat of death in either conflict. There is NO reason for you to tote geth being superior when they are even. When the geth killed civilians en masse in the Morning War, THEY took the role of agressors in the conflict. History already remembers THEM as butchers, killing people that weren't even in the fight. Slaughtering all in their way. Returning the favor does NOT make you more innocent. An eye for an eye is not justifiable in that case. You don't solve a wrong with another wrong, yet you keep trying to convince people otherwise. That slaughtering everyone on the block is alright as long as just one of them was an agressor. What kind of logic is that?
Also, they didn't retreat because the geth blockaded the damn Relay. And if you mean the dreadnought mission, that would have been a mistake. since the Reapers had a "back-up" on Rannoch, it means that when the quarian headed to the relay, they would have been surprised to see the geth blockade around it still at full force, and they would have been WIPED OUT. Gerrel actually saved them by not retreating, unknowing as that was. Also, that dreadnought could reactivate and tear them up if the DID ever try and pull back, or come online in seconds and rip them asunder again. There was no time to debate. And ANY soldier knows that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, especally if said choicemaker's entire race is on the line. It's Shepard and two people, vs the entire quarian race. You REALLY think sacrificing an entire race for three people is a logical move? And given what Shepard's been through, I think Gerrel would have been deeply surprised if Shepard DID die. It's no different then how Hackett is willing to risk your life in ME1 by firing on Soveregin while you are right next to it in the Citadel Tower. He KNOWS you are there, as the only way they could even get to the Citadel is if Shepard was there to unlock the Relays. It's no damn different then Hackett's choice at all. And one could say the same "disabling shots" point of the geth when, if sided with, they wipe out every single quarian ship, not just the military ships. They can manuver geth fighters to intercept hundereds of incomming rounds with perfect accuracy, yet can't land disabling shots on the massive liveships? You expect me to believe that?<_< You are REALLY going out of your way to demonize the quarians. I have never seen anyone so biased in my life.
And DON'T try that "the geth never lied" garbage. Legion lied to you about the geth server, and how you were the decoy to save geth behind the backs of the quarians and Tali. Legion lied to you about the Reaper upgrades. Hell, Legion was even concealing information from you in ME2, even AFTER the Loyalty Mission. Look Here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqtAHNQT3-w Despite the fact that it was speculation, keeping something as big as a theroy on knowing what the Reapers are, and potentally what the Collectors were doing, is pretty damn big to hide from you. I'm pretty sure having a theroy on what the Collectors were doing would be pretty damn invaluble, even if just speculation at the time. But he sure sounded like he was sure of his speculation being right. So I don't want to hear you try and pull any "the geth never lied" or "Legion never lied" BS.
The quarians NEVER lied about their motivations. They were aleays up-front about wanting their world back, and that they have no future without it. NEVER ONCE did they try to hide that desire.
It's hard to learn a lesson that YOU invented. Seriously, all you have done is use Headcannon points and favortist, prejudiced BS.
All your points are either biased perception, or outright asspulls. You basically have gospelized the geth as abused cherubs that have done no wrong, and that they "didn't know any better." They are living beings, so you need to let go of the gospel-view and judge them on their own merits. Stop looking for excuses to justify what isn't even there.
Emotional attachment has nothing to do with this. It's judging the races based on their own merits, both as living beings. Their judgements, the circumstances, and the effects. And again, it's NOT self-defense if you respond by killing everyone. That's armed retaliation and escalation, and absolutly impossible to justify as self-defense no matter WHAT you say.
If anything, yoru bias of the quarians is the problem here. Strange that everything you describe, only fits your description, of what you've done, and what you've posted. All you've DONE is devine truth, even going as far as to try and use Godwin's law in this thread. The quarians just want their world back. Jugding them because of Xen's psycopathic views, of Gerrel's agression to reclaim Rannoch, is prejudiced to the utmost level.
Regardless, she STILL lets him be aware of this. She doesn't try messing with the stuff without crew supervision, or at the very least, awareness of what she's doing.
Also, do you remember the scene after Palaven where Adams was in front of the A.I. core, wearing pressure masks? Those exist for a reason. Also, between all the ship personel, Tali in the engine room, Garrus in the Gun Battery, Liara's self-contained network and servers, her drone Glyph, Javik's natural paranoia of A.I.s, Joker at the helm control, Adams watching the electronics, and Traynor constantly observing the systems, SOMEONE would notice something.
After the fact which is exactly what Legion does. In fact more time has passed between ME2 and ME3 when she tells Adams that passed when Legion reveals he still has Reaper Code. The fact is EDI basically has Reaper Tech in her and crew is not aware of the full extent for months if not years depending on how much time between ME2 and ME3 has elapsed.
And organics have to sleep. Let's be real if EDI wanted to kill the crew, she could do so quite easily. In Joker's mission she seals him in the Engine room and then opens up the airlocks which she notes would kill all the hostiles immediately. She then lets him know when the purge is complete.
But Shepard and Joker know, certenly. Joker defended her - he knew full well since the end of ME2 that she had Reaper code. She trusts him. I doubt she would do anything to hurt him, without at least letting him be aware of the risk. She likely learned after the Collectors invaded the ship. What she's telling Adams is nothing Joker and Shepard don't know.
And as a military ship, Normany's crew works in constant shifts. Thee is always one shift sleeping, and one shift active. and they switch at regular intervals. This is all in the ME1 Codex entry: Secondary Codex: Humanity and the Systems Alliance: Military Doctrine.
The lack of them communicating is just one of the many reasons they are at fault.
What more needs to be said than 3:14. 300 years of misery and bloodshed and for what? Because a unit asked if it had a soul. 300 years later and what have the Quarians learned? They once again attack the Geth to solve their problems. They have learned nothing.
We been through this haven't we? I think everyone agree that the start of the war was Quarians fault. Both sides done horrible things during the MW. I already talked about the rest of this on my last post.
Gherel and Xen are not nice. The Quarians are condemned because that is who they chose for leaders and that is who they chose to follow. They are condemend because 3 Admirals (Tali, Koris and Raan) opposed the war but didn't have the balls to stand up for their convinction. How do 3 Admirals oppose the war but yet get outvoted by 2 Admirals. Either the Quarians don't know math or the rest of the Quarians voted for war.
Those 3 could have united and done something. The Quarians who opposed the war could have united and done something. When Gherel suggested strapping guns to liveships, Koris as Admiral of the Civilian Fleet could have refused. At the end of the day the synthetic had more courage to betray his race than the Quarians did. What does that say about the Quarians? It is laughable that the Geth get criticized for their consensus but the Quarians basically valued their consensus over their own principles.
I am not sure how they desided to go to war. Was there any dialogue talking about this in game? Maybe they armed the ships to go to war with the Reapers but Gherel desided to take the home world. He is the admiral of the heavy fleet, so he can launch the attack and others will be forced to support. Like I said I am not sure how it happened. So I'd like to see it if you got any video links or such.
And once again the Geth have no proof those ships came in peace. Give me one good reason the Geth should believe that. There is an armada outside the PV. How does the Geth know these ships are not there to recon and scout the PV in advance of an attack? You guys have avoided that question for like 3 or 4 pages now.
They are robots for f*** sake. They can atleast scan the ships for weapons before shooting. If Geth are so prejudice towards organics, why do you expect different from the other side?
- Our gods disowned us.
When a Quarian kid asks his Dad, why must we strap guns to our ship and shoot at the Geth, his Dad can respond "because we disowned them." When that liveship gets blown out of the sky because it fired on a Geth ship and a Quarian kids asks why he is going to die, his Dad can respond "because we disowned them." You talk of Quarian children but what have their parents taught them? Why did they parents not love them enough to keep them away from war? These a**holes strapped guns to liveships and sent them to war. You want to fault Shep or the Geth for killing them when it is the Quarians who sent their children to war. They die because their sh*tty parents effectively disowned them in favor of war.
You just heard "Our gods disowned us" in the vid and just made all that sh!t up? And you just ignored most of my last post in favor of few points you can argue.
1.) But the problem is that you judge the entire race on Xen. And then try to force that idea of quarian prejudice on Gerrel and Raan. And likewise, what evidence did the geth give the quarians that they were open to negotiation? Because alone with no proof besides word of mouth, Legion wasn't anywhere near prepped or ready to give any form of convincing defense for the geth. And in addendum, what other choice was open to the quarians besides retaking Rannoch?
2.) But they understood spite as well. They obliterated the quarian's ancestroal archives - something that shouldn't have been a priority target in a fight for survival. And there is still the matter of how the geth chose to not acknowledge that there were civilians in their cross-hairs. Even if what you say is true regarding geth "choosing" to focus exclusively on self-preservation, it still explisitly means that they chose not to care about civilian casualties in the war.
3.) But the quarians already would have tested it. They would never have even started a war on the geth unless they thought Xen's weapon worked. Also, we know for an absolue fact that the Reapers having "master control" is not true at all. In the first part of ME3, Hackett tells you in the Comm Room, when you ask how the Reapers hit Earth, that the Reapers surged out of the Arcturus Relay and bull-rushed Arcturus Station to reach the Charon Relay. If the Reapers had master control, why did they need to exit the Arcturus Relay to acess the Charon Relay? If what you claim is true, the Reapers should have been able to "bounce" past them without stopping. Instead, Hackett says that they steamrolled into Arcturus and had to bull-rush past the Alliance fleet to get to the Charon/Earth Relay, with one entire Reaper fleet staying behind to obliterate Arcturus Station, and the rest entering the Relay. So no, the Relays are not interconnected like that. You have to enter, exit, then enter the next. Rinse and repeat. Even the Reapers do this.
1. No I judge the entire race for their cowardice. Either the majority of them agreed with the plan to exterminate the Geth or the majority of them were too chicken sh*t to do what is right.
2. What reason was given for them destroying the archives? Can you provide the in-game reference to this as I suspect you are assuming that just because it says archives, it must mean it was harmless. Didn't Shepard just have a shootout in the Citadel Archives? This is war. It can be fought anywhere.
3. The Quarians had no ability to test it with large populations of Geth. They likely didn't even test it on fully functional Geth. It was testedon Geth parts and the like so I don't think they can just assume it would work on large groups of Geth based just on lab tests. Sovereign has been in Geth space before. Have the Reapers been in the local cluster. I would think they would stop at every relay because it has been 50 thousand years since they last paid a house visit. They would probably want to see what's going on in each system. Anyways, this is only tangential to the larger conversation. I will stick with what the game tells me as I don't think the writers intended for there to have been some super secret meetings between the Geth and Reapers pre Quarian attack.
1. You mean too scared to wait and die? Because that's what the Reapers would have done to them. You hate the quarians for not waiting to die, yet applaude the geth for not waiting to die?
2. ME1. Secondary Codex: Non-Council Races: Quarians: Religion. The geth attacked the quarian's ancestor archives, even though they were completely unassocaited with any form of self-defense.
3. What, do you think all the geth left from Rael's experiments were just disposed of? No, it's MUCH worse. Xen commendered the Alerei after Shepard cleaered it out. She continued Rael's work behind closed doors, and used the infomation recovered to avoid his "mistakes." The experiments you saw in the Alerei? Likely NOTHING compared to what Xen must have done after taking the ship for herself. Also, the logs left behind say that Rael networked them to sapiance diliberatly. Since there were at least 30 geth units, and each unit has about 100 programs, witha a prime having about a thousand, there were over 33,000 geth prorgams on the Alerei - more then enough for sapiance. Rael's experiments were on living, thinking, sapiant geth, used as brutally mutilated test subjects. What Rael was doing was nothing short of lobitimizing a living, fully concious person, then autopsing the still-living and convulsing body. In front of all the other geth on the ship. Xen, worse so. And poor Gerrel never even knew what Rael was doing, and was likely in the dark on Xen's share of the work as well. At least I can understand why the geth on the Alerei would be so cruel to the quarians they encountered, given how Rael treated them. Wrong. Hackett says that they had to fight through them to get to Earth. The point remains: The Reapers have to "relay swicth" like us. No exceptions.
1.) But the problem is that you judge the entire race on Xen. And then try to force that idea of quarian prejudice on Gerrel and Raan. And likewise, what evidence did the geth give the quarians that they were open to negotiation? Because alone with no proof besides word of mouth, Legion wasn't anywhere near prepped or ready to give any form of convincing defense for the geth. And in addendum, what other choice was open to the quarians besides retaking Rannoch?
2.) But they understood spite as well. They obliterated the quarian's ancestroal archives - something that shouldn't have been a priority target in a fight for survival. And there is still the matter of how the geth chose to not acknowledge that there were civilians in their cross-hairs. Even if what you say is true regarding geth "choosing" to focus exclusively on self-preservation, it still explisitly means that they chose not to care about civilian casualties in the war.
3.) But the quarians already would have tested it. They would never have even started a war on the geth unless they thought Xen's weapon worked. Also, we know for an absolue fact that the Reapers having "master control" is not true at all. In the first part of ME3, Hackett tells you in the Comm Room, when you ask how the Reapers hit Earth, that the Reapers surged out of the Arcturus Relay and bull-rushed Arcturus Station to reach the Charon Relay. If the Reapers had master control, why did they need to exit the Arcturus Relay to acess the Charon Relay? If what you claim is true, the Reapers should have been able to "bounce" past them without stopping. Instead, Hackett says that they steamrolled into Arcturus and had to bull-rush past the Alliance fleet to get to the Charon/Earth Relay, with one entire Reaper fleet staying behind to obliterate Arcturus Station, and the rest entering the Relay. So no, the Relays are not interconnected like that. You have to enter, exit, then enter the next. Rinse and repeat. Even the Reapers do this.
1. No I judge the entire race for their cowardice. Either the majority of them agreed with the plan to exterminate the Geth or the majority of them were too chicken sh*t to do what is right.
2. What reason was given for them destroying the archives? Can you provide the in-game reference to this as I suspect you are assuming that just because it says archives, it must mean it was harmless. Didn't Shepard just have a shootout in the Citadel Archives? This is war. It can be fought anywhere.
3. The Quarians had no ability to test it with large populations of Geth. They likely didn't even test it on fully functional Geth. It was testedon Geth parts and the like so I don't think they can just assume it would work on large groups of Geth based just on lab tests. Sovereign has been in Geth space before. Have the Reapers been in the local cluster. I would think they would stop at every relay because it has been 50 thousand years since they last paid a house visit. They would probably want to see what's going on in each system. Anyways, this is only tangential to the larger conversation. I will stick with what the game tells me as I don't think the writers intended for there to have been some super secret meetings between the Geth and Reapers pre Quarian attack.
1. Funny you said that. Only one side joined the Reapers save their own a**es.
2. Dunno what this is about. So I won't comment.
3. Geth contacted Sovereign and part of the Geth accepted their offer. This shows that Geth only shoot organic ships. And later during Rannoch was, same thing. Reapers extended an offer and they accepted. So why close communications from organics and connect with the Reapers? Geth are prejudice than anyone else.
I am curious now. Why do you keep ignoring everything bad about the Geth? What's so important about trying to show Geth as good guys going as far as making things up?
One additional problem here is that people played the game differently resulting in characters behivign differently which in turn affects the players view on events and characters.
It's almost like people didn't play the same game when you look at the details, even if it all commes down to the same choices at the end of ME3.
So are you saying you have more or less perspective on the matter than everyone else?
Least there isn't a geth LI in the series. Though people can like Legion all the same, like people like wrex. I am however judging people by their actions, if it had been a legal matter then the Quarians would be the offenders who trid to murder the Geth. People are usualy allowed to defend themselves. The geth stops attacking if the Quarians stops threatening them. The Involved Quarians would get jailtime or worse, the Geth would likely walk free seeing as they only defended themselves. Murder or massmurder to aquier property, someone elses property, that usualy counts as a crime in most courts. This is one of the consideration I'm taking. The actions of the Quarians can't be excused.
I don't know if the rest of you realize this, but you are effectively forced to choose via dialogue wheel right before you find out that you have a Paragon/Renegade option to save both.
Pretty sure the Quarians have a damn good claim for the ownership of Rannoch.
"Reclaiming our homeland" has almost always been an acceptable reason for war.
But since you folks are so adamant about the geth being so innocent it doesn't really matter to you does it?
It's the Geth homeworld aswell, you got two sentient species who lays claim to the same starsystem as their home. When you talk to Legion ME2 it's apparent that Legion doesn't know or understand why Rannoch a world the current Quarians have never visited in their life time would be so important to them, he also assumes that it's jsut out of pettyness and hate. To Legion home is a familiar environment, tohughtpatterns and friends, not a place one doesn't know. Maybe if the Quarians had taken the chance to talk to Legion and the Geth they might have been able to explain the problem better and found a solution to their mutual problem which is this undesirable conflict. Unfortunately the Quarians has always rejected the idea of talk ever since before the morning war.
Secondly the Quarians "raclaiming our homeland" is about as distant as the Jews claim on Israel before WW2. It was land that had, for almost 2 thousand years been inhabited by another people who had most likely lived there together with the jews of the old days.
But were told that the Geth were prepared to negotiate if the Quarians could assure them that they realy wanted peace and that it was in their interest to have peace with the Geth.
If the Geth had been the ones attackign the Quarians and hunting them across the galaxy then they would have been the offenders and I would have supported the Quarians, but as it stand the Quarians are the offender and almost everything they do throughout the priority Rannoc mission series paints them in a very unfavorable way, like Admiral Garrel.
One additional problem here is that people played the game differently resulting in characters behivign differently which in turn affects the players view on events and characters.
It's almost like people didn't play the same game when you look at the details, even if it all commes down to the same choices at the end of ME3.
So are you saying you have more or less perspective on the matter than everyone else?
Least there isn't a geth LI in the series. Though people can like Legion all the same, like people like wrex. I am however judging people by their actions, if it had been a legal matter then the Quarians would be the offenders who trid to murder the Geth. People are usualy allowed to defend themselves. The geth stops attacking if the Quarians stops threatening them. The Involved Quarians would get jailtime or worse, the Geth would likely walk free seeing as they only defended themselves. Murder or massmurder to aquier property, someone elses property, that usualy counts as a crime in most courts. This is one of the consideration I'm taking. The actions of the Quarians can't be excused.
So are the actions of Geth. If the Geth only engaged the Quarian military that maybe so. But thats not the case now is it. And the Geth didn't stop killing there. Been doing that for 300 more years.
Ok let's look at the moment when Shepard chooses the side. In a realistic situation, Tali or Raan would have just shot Legion. Sure Shepard can shoot her or something if he want, but the Geth are pretty screwed aren't they.
I don't know if the rest of you realize this, but you are effectively forced to choose via dialogue wheel right before you find out that you have a Paragon/Renegade option to save both.
I know, it's only slightly problematic however.. The thing is, by use of simple logic you know it's the Quarians that are the agressors, you can't save the Geth if you support the Quarians becase their goal is the extermination of the Geth.
However if you choose the Geth then you can "atempt" to make the Quarians stop and see reason and hope they can resolve things.
Like I said before(a few pages back) when someone is getting attacked by a gang in a dark alley it would make no sense for the passing police officer to walk over to the victim and tell him to stop resisting. Unless of course you prefer the victim dead or beaten up for some reason. Shepard is a Spectre and a council and alliance diplomat, it's Shepards job to mediate and know which is which. If you do your job right the Asari councilor will be impressed by your ability to end a 300 year old conflict. Something they have been too stupid and closeminded to accomplish.
One additional problem here is that people played the game differently resulting in characters behivign differently which in turn affects the players view on events and characters.
It's almost like people didn't play the same game when you look at the details, even if it all commes down to the same choices at the end of ME3.
So are you saying you have more or less perspective on the matter than everyone else?
Least there isn't a geth LI in the series. Though people can like Legion all the same, like people like wrex. I am however judging people by their actions, if it had been a legal matter then the Quarians would be the offenders who trid to murder the Geth. People are usualy allowed to defend themselves. The geth stops attacking if the Quarians stops threatening them. The Involved Quarians would get jailtime or worse, the Geth would likely walk free seeing as they only defended themselves. Murder or massmurder to aquier property, someone elses property, that usualy counts as a crime in most courts. This is one of the consideration I'm taking. The actions of the Quarians can't be excused.
So are the actions of Geth. If the Geth only engaged the Quarian military that maybe so. But thats not the case now is it. And the Geth didn't stop killing there. Been doing that for 300 more years.
Ok let's look at the moment when Shepard chooses the side. In a realistic situation, Tali or Raan would have just shot Legion. Sure Shepard can shoot her or something if he want, but the Geth are pretty screwed aren't they.
Legion never struck me as defenceless, though that upload might be compromising his awareness of what's going on around him. Also Legion also makes it clear that the Geth don't leave the veil. Tbh, according to Legion the Quarians never settled for peace with the Geth, a concept which is familiar to Legion. Unfortunately we have already established that the Quarians cant even contemplate the idea of a peace unless Shepard forces it at the end with Koris and Tali as supporters. The Geth can't sure for peace on their own. The Citadel DLC shows the stupidity of unarmed synthetics atempting direct contact with organics to negotiate peace. I wonder what Xen's thoughts were durign Legion's upload, maybe she told Garrel to stop aswell we just didn't hear that transmission or maybe she was there with Garrel and noticed the upload. Also all of the targets that the Geth attacked during this conflict were armed and engaged in the conquest of the Geth homeworld/system. Every Quarian ship was armed and there to fight, there were no non-military targets among the Quarians. Hopefully the Quarians will get more agreeable in the future. All we know is that the Quarians only stop if Shepard goes to extreme lenghts to accomplish a peaceful settlement and support Koris and save him from the crashsite.
Like I said, the Geth arn't pushing for the war, if you want peace then you have to convince the Quarians.
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has oxygen-based atmosphere, © tolerible gravity levels, (d) clean water sources, (e) air particles they could adapt to without it being fatal, (f) food that doesn't need to be reduced to sterle paste to eat, and (g) has an insect-free, mammal-spicific ecology, is undertsndibly rare. In fact, the only world that matches this is Rannoch itself. Any other worlds the quarians had (where flora from Rannoch was likely transported and seeded) were taken by the geth. And none would be as potent as the flora on Rannoch itself. Even Rannoch's Codex entry lists the planet's reclemation as one of "both cultural and physiological necessity." 
