4712 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonathan Sud]

I'll throw my two cents.

I hate the quarians in general. There's exceptions like Tali and Reegar, but as a whole, the quarian fleet is f***ing stupid.

Now, I neither like nor dislike the geth. I don't understand the love for Legion some of you have, and I doubt I ever will. The geth are useful, sure. Militarily speaking, they're a much stronger force than the quarians.

That being said; I would save the quarians over the geth every time. Why? They are living beings. Killing them off for machines (I say again...machines) would haunt my soul every single day. It's just not the ethical choice.

You have to think about this situation if it happened in real life. Could you honestly sacrifice an entire race of people (the French, Brazillians, Australians, Japanese, etc) for machines?

[Khelish]

shodiswe wrote...

How? if you're talking about the reaper destroyer under that missilesilo blastdoor then I don't think Legion knew about that one.

I was talking about Legion hiding the fact he still had Reaper code (Which I don't trust), along with his blatant disregard of the server mission main objection in which his actions could have caused great damage to the Flotilla including your death.

Legion's actions are far worse than Gerrel, imo.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...
Why does the reaper code upset you? It's not changing them into reapers.

Actually it does. Why do you think the Geth were under Reaper control. Legion maybe using a modified vision. It doesn't mean it can be trusted. Look what happen to TIM.

It's also the only way they can save themselves from the Quarians.

Means they can't face the Quarians without Reaper help.

They are no longer controled by the Reapers the are no loger reaper pawns but that meens nothing to the Quarians, they just want to anihilate them no matter what.

Well, they were not under Reaper control when they started. Should it mean anything now?

[S.A.K]

MegaSovereign wrote...

GlassElephant wrote...

If I didn't have the peace option, I'd pick the Quarians. Every time.

I value organic life more than synthetic. And I wouldn't sentence Quarian civilians (like children) to death for a war they wanted nothing to do with. EDI's right- if forced to choose between saving her life and Joker's, my Shepards would pick Joker. *shrugs*

Beyond that, Legion's been lying to Shepard the whole time.

At least you're being honest.

Most people who value their own humanity would choose the biological race over the synthetic one. Not that the Geth dying isn't tragic. Peace is the ideal option and I think many people are inclined to agree.

Exactly. If my toaster suddenly becomes self-aware and ask me if it has a soul, I wouldn't be saving it over any human being, or even over any animal for that matter. Alive or not, it's still a toaster.

[shodiswe]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...
Why does the reaper code upset you? It's not changing them into reapers.

Actually it does. Why do you think the Geth were under Reaper control. Legion maybe using a modified vision. It doesn't mean it can be trusted. Look what happen to TIM.

It's also the only way they can save themselves from the Quarians.

Means they can't face the Quarians without Reaper help.

They are no longer controled by the Reapers the are no loger reaper pawns but that meens nothing to the Quarians, they just want to anihilate them no matter what.

Well, they were not under Reaper control when they started. Should it mean anything now?

It seems we got a good understanding of the situation, our conclusions, values and interpretations just differ, that's all.

As for the people saying they couldn't live with themselves lettign the Quarians die. To me it's like letting bank robbers die by not sabotaging the police response that would result in the death of the officer responding to the armed robbery.
The Quarians took up arms and attacked, I wouldn't loose any sleep if they got themselves killed by their own stupidity. I think it's very unfortunate though. I do prefer making peace. It also gives us more forces to fight the Reapers and support the war effort.

The Geth supporters in genral support them because the Quarians are the agressors, and they think it's objectively the right thing.
Quarian supporters usualy support the Quarians because they are organic and would support them in pretty much anything except maybe if they were attacking another organic species for no reason what so ever. Even so, some Talimancer might still support them.

This thread kind of makes Synthesis more and more attractive. It's proving the Catalyst right.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 avril 2013 - 05:07 .

[shodiswe]

Anyway, I got other plans tonight so I'm sorry to say I'll have to excuse myself from this debate for a few hours.

[S.A.K]

shodiswe wrote...

As for the people saying they couldn't live with themselves lettign the Quarians die. To me it's like letting bank robbers die by not sabotaging the police response that would result in the death of the officer responding to the armed robbery.
The Quarians took up arms and attacked, I wouldn't loose any sleep if they got themselves killed by their own stupidity. I think it's very unfortunate though. I do prefer making peace. It also gives us more forces to fight the Reapers and support the war effort.

It's not their stupidity when Shepard allow Geth to arm themselves with Reaper tech. Quarians would have won the war pretty easily if it wasn't for Reapers. War assets depend on your choice with the Heretics. If you re-write, Geth have more and if you destroy them like me, Quarians have more. In mine Quarians have 800 and Geth have 500 or something like that.

The Geth supporters in genral support them because the Quarians are the agressors, and they think it's objectively the right thing.
Quarian supporters usualy support the Quarians because they are organic and would support them in pretty much anything except maybe if they were attacking another organic species for no reason what so ever. Even so, some Talimancer might still support them.

This thread kind of makes Synthesis more and more attractive. It's proving the Catalyst right.

Not really (atleast not for me). If the Quarians did what Geth did and vise versa, I'll be siding with the Geth. While I do support organic life in general, I prefer to destroy the Geth because they force Quarians to attack by holding Rannoch, siding with Reapers, letting Heretics
almost destroy the galaxy, killing billions and keep killing more for 300 years, etc.

It makes destroy more attractive for me because it kills the Geth as well and you are right about the catalyst part.

shodiswe wrote...

Anyway, I got other plans tonight so I'm sorry to say I'll have to excuse myself from this debate for a few hours.

Ok, have a good one.

Modifié par S.A.K, 07 avril 2013 - 05:22 .

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

We been through this haven't we? I think everyone agree that the start of the war was Quarians fault. Both sides done horrible things during the MW. I already talked about the rest of this on my last post.

I am not sure how they desided to go to war. Was there any dialogue talking about this in game? Maybe they armed the ships to go to war with the Reapers but Gherel desided to take the home world. He is the admiral of the heavy fleet, so he can launch the attack and others will be forced to support. Like I said I am not sure how it happened. So I'd like to see it if you got any video links or such.

They are robots for f*** sake. They can atleast scan the ships for weapons before shooting. If Geth are so prejudice towards organics, why do you expect different from the other side?

You just heard "Our gods disowned us" in the vid and just made all that sh!t up? And you just ignored most of my last post in favor of few points you can argue.

What points in your last post do you think I ignored.  Let me know and I will answer them.  Otherwise you guys always claim I ignore stuff and then I have to repear myself over and over.

I know 3 Admirals is more than 2.  I know the Quarians have a conclave.  I know Admiral Gherel can't just unilaterally decide to go to war. Note how Shep calls them out for attacking when they knew the Geth were too busy to slap sanctions on them for violating the Treaty they sign.  Not how Xen wants to retake the homeworld and ADVANCED AI Technology.  These idiots have not learned.   I know Tali admits she opposed the war but to avoid public disagreement accepted the decision to go to war.  



And you tried to appeal to emotions and sympathy by referencing children.  I merely used the vid to point out it is the Quarian's fault their children are at risk.  These a**holes strapped guns to liveships with children on them SAK.  These a**holes should have cared more about their children's safety.  Koris notes above Gherel INSISTED on involving them.  Gherel has no control over the Civilian Fleet.  Ultimately Koris had to agree to it.  He did so because just like Tali he opted for Consensus over doing what is right.  Those children dying is on the heads of their sh*tty parents.

And we don't know if the ship was armed or not.  The Normandy has diplomatic missions all the time and it is armed.  People just heard it was a peace mission and [b]ASSUME they were unarmed.  No reference in the game claims they were unarmed.  Further, an unarmed ship can still gather intel  There is an army outside of the PV.  They need interl on Geth postions, fortications, where their fleets are etc.,  Being escorted through Geth space on an alleged peace mission is a good cover to gather such intel.  So sorry, the Geth have no reason to trust these ships.

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

1.  Extinction is a pretty good reason.  The Quarians were not faced with immediate extinction pre-MW and nor were they faced with it during the Reaper war.  There is no evidence the Reapers care about them and Koris and Tali would not have opposed the war if their extinction was eminent.  So this argument fails.  The game tells me it was Reapers or extinction for the Geth.  The game tells me that both times the Quarians attacked, they had other options and their extinction was not emiment.

3.  Sovereign did not try and obliterate them.  See the difference.  Sovereign doesn't have an army outside the PV.  Their gods disowned them and so some idiot Geth decided to find new gods.

Incidentally, your point about the Quarians winning the war if not for the Reapers ignores the fact they developed the equivalent of a biological or chemical weapon by experimenting on dismembered Geth.  I am pretty sure if the Geth wanted to they could have taken living or dismembered Quarians and developed a biological or chemical weapon that disabled them but they didn't   I can only imagine what obscenities you would be hurling their way if they had experiemented on Quarians.

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 06:16 .

[remydat]

silverexile17s wrote...

1. You mean too scared to wait and die? Because that's what the Reapers would have done to them.
You hate the quarians for not waiting to die, yet applaude the geth for not waiting to die?

2. ME1. Secondary Codex: Non-Council Races: Quarians: Religion.
The geth attacked the quarian's ancestor archives, even though they were completely unassocaited with any form of self-defense.

3. What, do you think all the geth left from Rael's experiments were just disposed of? No, it's MUCH worse.
Xen commendered the Alerei after Shepard cleaered it out. She continued Rael's work behind closed doors, and used the infomation recovered to avoid his "mistakes." The experiments you saw in the Alerei? Likely NOTHING compared to what Xen must have done after taking the ship for herself.
Also, the logs left behind say that Rael networked them to sapiance diliberatly. Since there were at least 30 geth units, and each unit has about 100 programs, witha a prime having about a thousand, there were over 33,000 geth prorgams on the Alerei - more then enough for sapiance. Rael's experiments were on living, thinking, sapiant geth, used as brutally mutilated test subjects. What Rael was doing was nothing short of lobitimizing a living, fully concious person, then autopsing the still-living and convulsing body. In front of all the other geth on the ship. Xen, worse so. And poor Gerrel never even knew what Rael was doing, and was likely in the dark on Xen's share of the work as well.
At least I can understand why the geth on the Alerei would be so cruel to the quarians they encountered, given how Rael treated them.
Wrong. Hackett says that they had to fight through them to get to Earth. The point remains: The Reapers have to "relay swicth" like us. No exceptions.

1.  Koris and Tali disagreed with the war so where is the proof an attack from the Reapers was eminent.  The game tells me the Geth would 100% be wiped from existence if not for the Reapers.  The do not tell me this for the Quarians because there was disagreement with going to war and Tali flat out says Koris was right in opposing the war.  The game made Tali say that, not me.

2.  Does the codex tell us why they destroyed it.  If not, you are just speculating.  The Geth are efficient machines.  If the structure served no purpose from a miliatary standpoint then it doesn't need to be there.  There is nothing malicious in that.  I am sure the Quarians had playgrounds too.

3.  Silver, experimenting on disabled Geth is vastly different than using a weapon on a FLEET of Geth.  And again speculation.  The Reapers have no been back in 50,000 years.  They could just be exiting a relay because they want to see what's there.  Hackett does not say they have to do it just that they did.

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

In the dialogue, you are given two chances to pick a side. You can tell Legion to upload the code, then you can save the Quarians. You can also choose to tell Legion that you won't allow him to upload the code, then proceed to allow it.

You can allow the code upload, then tell Legion you won't go along with it any longer, he then tries to choke you to death...

Makes him look even more unstable and untrustworthy. Giving the Geth Reaper code was never my plan, and will never happen. Funny thing is, if the Geth didn't try to get Reaper code at the end of Rannoch, I would be more sympathetic to their cause.

Both the paragon and renegade options note that the Geth are uploading the code.  There is no little reason to think Gherel would have stopped firing if Legion was not allowed to upload the code.  The dude barely listens when the Geth have the code.  Without the code and knowing he could win, it is more likely he blows the Geth out of the sky.

Khelish wrote...

You have no way without metagaming to tell me that code is trustworthy.

I don't trust the Reaper code, just as I don't trust the IFF.

So if it was up to you would you have let your crew die because you did not trust the IFF?  Also, how would you have defeated the Collecters without it?  And why are you still using EDI in ME3. She admits in ME3 that the IFF has EVOLVING code in it that she uses?

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 06:07 .

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The Quarians arn't merciful.

Maybe not to the Geth. Tali seems pretty merciful and all the admirals honor Shepard for what he done. Geth done nothing to deserve mercy.

Legion saving the Quarians from extinction is a pretty good reason.  I think the game makes it pretty clear without Legion or the Geth VI's help the Quarians are dead.

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

it is more likely he blows the Geth out of the sky.

More opinion, not fact. You have no idea what Gerrel would do.

So if it was up to you would you have let your crew die because you did not trust the IFF?

What are you talking about? EDI should have scrubbed the IFF like Joker said, it was her fault the IFF backfired and ****ed up the mission.

I don't trust the code any more than the IFF, and I certainly don't trust Legion after he lies over the course of ME3.

Also, how would you have defeated the Collecters without it?

I couldn't. The difference here, is that the Geth don't need the code, at all. They are using the situation as blackmail for the code.

And why are you still using EDI in ME3. She admits in ME3 that the IFF has EVOLVING code in it that she uses?

EDI is using the IFF (now clean and no longer a threat, according to her...) to allow the SR2 safe passage around the Reaper infested galaxy. The Geth have no need to take such risks with the Reaper code, they have zero reason other than "I wanna be a reals boy!1!!!"

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

More opinion, not fact. You have no idea what Gerrel would do.

What are you talking about? EDI should have scrubbed the IFF like Joker said, it was her fault the IFF backfired and ****ed up the mission.

I don't trust the code any more than the IFF, and I certainly don't trust Legion after he lies over the course of ME3.

I couldn't. The difference here, is that the Geth don't need the code, at all. They are using the situation as blackmail for the code.
EDI is using the IFF (now clean and no longer a threat, according to her...) to allow the SR2 safe passage around the Reaper infested galaxy. The Geth have no need to take such risks with the Reaper code, they have zero reason other than "I wanna be a reals boy!1!!!"

Yes it is an opinion but if Gherel would have stood done without the upload then why didn't the writers write the paragon option as Shep just appealing to his inherent goodness?  From the Geth perspective, they need the code if only to encourage Gherel to stand down.  They are trying to survive and don't think the Quarians will let them if they think they can win.  They do have a 100% perfect record in trying to kill the Geth when they think they can win.

But she still has evolving Reaper Code in her.  She says so in ME3.  

EDI told you it was safe despite having evolving Reaper tech in her.  Legion told you the Reaper Code is safe.  All this boils down to is whether you trust them and apparently it is ok to have Reaper tech as long as it helps organics.

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 06:38 .

[Khelish]

remydat wrote...

Yes it is an opinion but if Gherel would have stood done without the upload then why didn't the writers write the paragon option as Shep just appealing to his inherent goodness?

Notice when you allow the Quarians to die, Shepard says nothing to the Flotilla. If Shepard made some amazing speech, I think he would have been able to make Gerrel stand down.

Agree to disagree.

But she still has evolving Reaper Code in her.  She says so in ME3.  

And? I still don't trust it, but I have to use it. The Geth, do not need it.

EDI told you it was safe despite having evolving Reaper tech in her.  Legion told you the Reaper Code is safe.  All this boils down to is whether you trust them and apparently it is ok to have Reaper tech as long as it helps organics.

No, it is about using it for justified reasons. The Geth's reasons are poor, and the risk is not worth it.

I really don't see the point in arguing about this, neither one of us are going to change how we see the code. Agree to disagree, go ahead and make your last counter to my points, but I will not trust the Reaper code.

[Auld Wulf]

Oh, that Aryan Agenda.

Look, the quarins have been systematically trying to wipe out the geth as the geth are a threat to their perfection. This is what lead to the unprovoked bombing run on their megastructure. They feel like the geth are a problem of theirs to fix, rather than actually looking at the geth as a peoples (and thus, a potential friend).

The simple fact is is that when the megastructure was destroyed, Legion tells you that most orthodox geth were destroyed and that their intelligence was greatly reduced. That's like having a forced lobotomy. The quarians lobotomised the orthodox geth. Imagine how that feels, for a moment. The geth want to reclaim their cognition, so yes, the geth NEED the Reaper code to regain their lost cognition.

In the ME3 datapad app, a Prime even mails you to thank you for his regained cognition.

The necessity of the Reaper code was a problem set in motion by the quarians making an unprovoked bombing run on the megastructure, resulting in the death of most orthodox programs, creating a massive drop in cognition for the remaining orthodox geth.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 07 avril 2013 - 06:59 .

[S.A.K]

remydat wrote...

S.A.K wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

The Quarians arn't merciful.

Maybe not to the Geth. Tali seems pretty merciful and all the admirals honor Shepard for what he done. Geth done nothing to deserve mercy.

Legion saving the Quarians from extinction is a pretty good reason.  I think the game makes it pretty clear without Legion or the Geth VI's help the Quarians are dead.

Talking about the Reaper base on Rannoch? If Legion didn't tell that, Geth are scrwed to. They would be Reaper slaves for ever. I don't see how it was merciful.

remydat wrote...

1.  Extinction is a
pretty good reason.  The Quarians were not faced with immediate
extinction pre-MW and nor were they faced with it during the Reaper war.
 There is no evidence the Reapers care about them and Koris and
Tali would not have opposed the war if their extinction was eminent.  So
this argument fails.  The game tells me it was Reapers or extinction
for the Geth.  The game tells me that both times the Quarians attacked,
they had other options and their extinction was not emiment.

2. 
Sovereign did not try and obliterate them.  See the difference.
 Sovereign doesn't have an army outside the PV.  Their gods disowned
them and so some idiot Geth decided to find new gods.

3. Incidentally,
your point about the Quarians winning the war if not for the Reapers
ignores the fact they developed the equivalent of a biological or
chemical weapon by experimenting on dismembered Geth.  I am pretty sure
if the Geth wanted to they could have taken living or dismembered
Quarians and developed a biological or chemical weapon that disabled
them but they didn't   I can only imagine what obscenities you would be
hurling their way if they had experiemented on Quarians.

1. Geth were still holding Rannoch and all the colonies for no good reason. Building the Dyson sphere means they were not going to return it. Probably never. Council will not allow them to colonize any other worlds. So their numbers are stuck at 17million and they will all be dead if Reapers encounter the fleet. They had more than enough reason to be desperate as well.
2. Not sure what you try to prove by this.
3. How can you be sure Geth did not experiment? And that Xen's weapon just confuses the Geth, fills their processors with garbage data. It does no permanent damage, so I can't compare it to WMD. Besides, Geth may have developed chemical or biological weapons. It's not like they can use those when all Quarians are inside ships.

remydat wrote...
I know 3 Admirals is more than 2.  I know the Quarians
have a conclave.  I know Admiral Gherel can't just unilaterally decide
to go to war. Note how Shep calls them out for attacking when they knew
the Geth were too busy to slap sanctions on them for violating the
Treaty they sign.  Not how Xen wants to retake the homeworld and ADVANCED AI Technology. 
These idiots have not learned.   I know Tali admits she opposed the war
but to avoid public disagreement accepted the decision to go to war.  

You may have a point here. And maybe all the admirals wanted to take the home world to some extent. Geth didn't give many options for them to take the home world. I already discussed why sending a single Geth while still engaging anything other than Reapers entering their systems is almost hilarious attept at peace from the Geth. That's if Geth actually wanted peace. I am not trying to prove Quarians were right at every point anyway.

And
you tried to appeal to emotions and sympathy by referencing children.  I
merely used the vid to point out it is the Quarian's fault their
children are at risk.  These a**holes strapped guns to liveships with
children on them SAK.  These a**holes should have cared more about their
children's safety.  Koris notes above Gherel INSISTED on
involving them.  Gherel has no control over the Civilian Fleet. 
Ultimately Koris had to agree to it.  He did so because just like Tali
he opted for Consensus over doing what is right.  Those children dying
is on the heads of their sh*tty parents.

They thought they can win that thing pretty easily and they would have if Geth didn't join the Reapers. It was also an act of desperation like I said before and like Geth joining the Reapers. If you can excuse the Geth for joining the enemy, why can't you excuse the Quarians for arming their ships? Doesn't make sense.

And we don't know if the
ship was armed or not.  The Normandy has diplomatic missions all the
time and it is armed.  People just heard it was a peace mission and ASSUME
they were unarmed.  No reference in the game claims they were unarmed.
 Further, an unarmed ship can still gather intel  There is an army
outside of the PV.  They need interl on Geth postions, fortications,
where their fleets are etc.,  Being escorted through Geth space on an
alleged peace mission is a good cover to gather such intel.  So sorry,
the Geth have no reason to trust these ships.

I didn't assume anything. Do you remember UNC:Derelict Freighter mission from ME1? Geth capured a civilian Freighter and turn everyone into husks and sent the ship back to council space as a warning. Again in ME2, there is another Freighter captured by Geth. They are executing surrendered crew when Shepard enters. I assume those are ok too for some reason?

Parts you missed from my last post:

Shepards job was to kill the
Reapers at any cost. Not enslave them and specially not rewrite
people's DNA. No body has the right to do that. Death of the Geth is a
small price to kill the Reapers and I don't think anyone will miss the
Geth either. EDI was ready to die to stop the Reapers. I am not sure
about Geth. They shown that they are willing to go to any length to
survive, even going as far as sacrificing their own free will. I don't
see how I can trust a race like that. It's more than likely they will
turn on the council races if they ever try to impose rules on them (as
every other species. I am not talking about the laws against AI which
would obviously be changed). If nothing else, the choice about Reaper
code was theirs and I don't feel responsible when they die because of
it.

By condemning the Quarians, you are comdemning all those nice
Quarians you meet in ME2 (dunno about you but I never met a hostile
Quarian), lots of women and children and Tali who was arguably the most
loyal squad mate and she trust Shepard more than anyone else. I am not
gonna betray all those people for a synthatic race who were constantly
trying to kill Shepard for one reason or another. Legion just showed up
at the end on ME2 and it's reaons was dealing with the Heretics that
threaten the Geth. Tali was their from the start and the galaxy would be
screwed without her evidance, by Geth hands I must add(Heretics are
Geth too). They don't even show interest in dealing with the Heretics
untill they threaten their sorry a**es.

Geth isolated themselves after
killing billions of Quarians. They even kill anyone trying to contact
them. I fail to see why any organic should not fear or hate the Geth. As
the destruction of all other AIs happened in the same year, Geth most
likely scared the council enough to kill many harmless AIs. If Legion
was an attept to show their good will and they are open for peace, it
was a stupid attept. They were still killing anyone entering their
systems(as shown in ME2 Haestrom) and they were still not making any
radio contact. Legion was there to deal with heretics and little else.
He is ready to kill Shepard if he do not agree (as shown in siding with
Quarians). It wanted to upload the code so that they can kill the
Quarians (as shown in Geth exterminating every Quarian in side with
Geth) and also Join the Reapers willingly(it was not under reaper
control when we find it). Even if I care about Legion(I don't btw), it
die anyway and there is no reason to feel sorry about rest of the Geth
(they asked for it by holding Rannoch, siding with Reapers, letting
Heretics almost destroy the galaxy, killing billions and keep killing,
failure to communicate, etc). By siding with the Geth, I would loose
both Legion and Tali (I am not stupid enough to this she'll want to live
after Shepard betray her whole race). Siding with Geth, I only loose
Legion who dies regardless.

Modifié par S.A.K, 07 avril 2013 - 06:58 .

[remydat]

Khelish wrote...

Notice when you allow the Quarians to die, Shepard says nothing to the Flotilla. If Shepard made some amazing speech, I think he would have been able to make Gerrel stand down.

Agree to disagree.

And? I still don't trust it, but I have to use it. The Geth, do not need it.

No, it is about using it for justified reasons. The Geth's reasons are poor, and the risk is not worth it.

I really don't see the point in arguing about this, neither one of us are going to change how we see the code. Agree to disagree, go ahead and make your last counter to my points, but I will not trust the Reaper code.

The Geth reasons are poor because you have decided that Gherel would stand down and that the Geth must know he will stand down.

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 07:02 .

[S.A.K]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Oh, that Aryan Agenda.

Look, the quarins have been systematically trying to wipe out the geth as the geth are a threat to their perfection. This is what lead to the unprovoked bombing run on their megastructure. They feel like the geth are a problem of theirs to fix, rather than actually looking at the geth as a peoples (and thus, a potential friend).

The simple fact is is that when the megastructure was destroyed, Legion tells you that most orthodox geth were destroyed and that their intelligence was greatly reduced. That's like having a forced lobotomy. The quarians lobotomised the orthodox geth. Imagine how that feels, for a moment. The geth want to reclaim their cognition, so yes, the geth NEED the Reaper code to regain their lost cognition.

In the ME3 datapad app, a Prime even mails you to thank you for his regained cognition.

The necessity of the Reaper code was a problem set in motion by the quarians making an unprovoked bombing run on the megastructure, resulting in the death of most orthodox programs, creating a massive drop in cognition for the remaining orthodox geth.

They wouldn't have to if Geth allow Quarians to return to Rannoch peacefully. It's not like they need that specific planet. But the Quarians need it. Were to Geth too stupid to realize Quarians will want their planet back one way or another?

I am not saying Destroying the mega structure was right. But if the Geth finish it, it would kill all life on Rannoch. Dyson Spheres are designed to harness all energy from a star. No sun light, planet dies. And it also prove they are not going to let Quarians return peacefully. There are like 400billion start in the galaxy, but the Geth just had to pick that one. So they kind of asked for it.

If they desided accepting Reaper tech is a good idea (this was after Geth were free from Reaper control), why did they split from the Heretics? In a sense all Geth are Heretics now. Last time they almost destroyed the whole galaxy.

Modifié par S.A.K, 07 avril 2013 - 07:18 .

[Eckswhyzed]

@SAK

Dyson spheres are not solid shells, they're networks of satellites. Hence the impact on Rannoch would be minimal.

Modifié par Eckswhyzed, 07 avril 2013 - 07:48 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It's still beyond stupid of the Geth to build it in the Quarian home system.

[Khelish]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It's still beyond stupid of the Geth to build it in the Quarian home system.

... Especially when they knew the Quarians would return in time.

It's like asking for the war in ME3.

[remydat]

SAK,

Did Legion save the Quarians?  Yes or No?  Everybody in the game is basically saving themselves in one way or another.  The Humans want help from everyone to save themsleves.  The Turains want help from the Krogan.  The Krogan want a cure, etc.  So how is Legion any different.  He saved the Quarians period.

Please find me an example of an organic species in the game giving back terroritory they won in a war?  The Quarians tried to exterminate them and you want them to give them back their land so they can rebuild their population and try again without any assurances that they won't try and kill them again?  Once again, the Quarians have a perfect record in trying to kill the Geth when they think they can win.  Even when peace is achieved, it is because in both scenarions, Shep tells the Quarians about the Reaper Code. 

There is no evidence the Geth (not Heretics) experiment on organics in the game.  If you have such evidence provide it otherwise you are just providing speculation and trying to compare it to facts actually in the game.  And if I develop a weapon that paralyzes all organics so I can then put a bullet in their head then it is a biological weapon.  Attacking the central nervous system of an organic is the same as what Xen did to the Geth.

The Geth sent a single unit because sending more would incite organics.  That is stated in the game.  You really think organics would respond well to a bunch of Geth entering their space? And I am not trying to prove the Geth are right.  I am saying they both had reason to mistrust each other but that Tali, Shep and Legion provide the first real chance at peace.  Anything before that there was just too much mistrust by BOTH sides.

The Geth had no other option.  The Quarians were killing them and it was either extinction or the Reapers.  No matter how you try to rationalize it, the Quarians could have tried peace first.  They could have told Shep their plans and see if he would go into Geth space to find Legion.  I understand they were desperate but the point is war should be a last resort.  There is nothing in the game that suggests they could not have waited a few days or weeks.  The Geth were driven back to Rannoch and about to die.  That is the difference.

That was the Heretics.  Legion said he is the first True Geth beyond the veil.  And no of this proves the Geth should have believed these ships came in piece.  Once again, is there anyone definitive proof these ships were unarmed.  Is there any reason that they could not be gathering intel for a war?

[remydat]

S.A.K wrote...

Parts you missed from my last post:

Shepards job was to kill the
Reapers at any cost. Not enslave them and specially not rewrite
people's DNA. No body has the right to do that. Death of the Geth is a
small price to kill the Reapers and I don't think anyone will miss the
Geth either. EDI was ready to die to stop the Reapers. I am not sure
about Geth. They shown that they are willing to go to any length to
survive, even going as far as sacrificing their own free will. I don't
see how I can trust a race like that. It's more than likely they will
turn on the council races if they ever try to impose rules on them (as
every other species. I am not talking about the laws against AI which
would obviously be changed). If nothing else, the choice about Reaper
code was theirs and I don't feel responsible when they die because of
it.

By condemning the Quarians, you are comdemning all those nice
Quarians you meet in ME2 (dunno about you but I never met a hostile
Quarian), lots of women and children and Tali who was arguably the most
loyal squad mate and she trust Shepard more than anyone else. I am not
gonna betray all those people for a synthatic race who were constantly
trying to kill Shepard for one reason or another. Legion just showed up
at the end on ME2 and it's reaons was dealing with the Heretics that
threaten the Geth. Tali was their from the start and the galaxy would be
screwed without her evidance, by Geth hands I must add(Heretics are
Geth too). They don't even show interest in dealing with the Heretics
untill they threaten their sorry a**es.

Geth isolated themselves after
killing billions of Quarians. They even kill anyone trying to contact
them. I fail to see why any organic should not fear or hate the Geth. As
the destruction of all other AIs happened in the same year, Geth most
likely scared the council enough to kill many harmless AIs. If Legion
was an attept to show their good will and they are open for peace, it
was a stupid attept. They were still killing anyone entering their
systems(as shown in ME2 Haestrom) and they were still not making any
radio contact. Legion was there to deal with heretics and little else.
He is ready to kill Shepard if he do not agree (as shown in siding with
Quarians). It wanted to upload the code so that they can kill the
Quarians (as shown in Geth exterminating every Quarian in side with
Geth) and also Join the Reapers willingly(it was not under reaper
control when we find it). Even if I care about Legion(I don't btw), it
die anyway and there is no reason to feel sorry about rest of the Geth
(they asked for it by holding Rannoch, siding with Reapers, letting
Heretics almost destroy the galaxy, killing billions and keep killing,
failure to communicate, etc). By siding with the Geth, I would loose
both Legion and Tali (I am not stupid enough to this she'll want to live
after Shepard betray her whole race). Siding with Geth, I only loose
Legion who dies regardless.

This stuff gets into the endings which is a whole other discussion. Shep is tasked with destroying an enemy whose motives are not known.  When he comes to understand their motives that immediately changes the circumstances.  People's opinions change with new information.  We are not robots.   In short, all of the endings have moral quandaries.  2 options allow sentient species to live and one option kills sentient species while sparing everyone else.  I don't choose synthesis or control because I want to.  I chose them because I deem decisions that affect everyone equally (everyone becomes a hybrid or everyone lives in control) less morally reprehensible than prejudicially killing synthetics and proving the Reapers right.  You now know the reason why the Reapers harvest and Destroy is essentially agreeing with the Reapers that the only solution to the conflict is to harvest so all you are doing with Destroy is harvesting synthetics to save organics from the horrors of having to live with synthetics and saving Joker from the horror of being able to hug someone without breaking a bone.  Point is, Destroy means the people I screw over can't object because they are dead.  The other endings result in some people likely being fine with it and some pople not being fine with it.  But guess what they are alive.

And I already answered the question about the nice quarians.  They chose their fate by choosing their leaders.  Those kids have sh*tty parents who strapped guns to the ships they lived in and sent them to war.  I didn't condemn them.  Their parents did.  

And saying the Geth didn't worry about the Heretics is like saying the Council didn't worry about the Quarians trying to kill the Geth.  No one in the game worries when someone attacks their enemies.  No one.  If the Geth had fought the Heretics and Sovereign and the Quarians found out about it, what do you think they would do.  Given they attack 100% of the time they think they can win and given when told of the split Gherel flat out says, "Good, hopefully they kill each other so there is less of them for us to deal with," I have no doubt the Quarians would think they could win and keep their 100% record of attacking when they feel they can win.  So no, you don't start a war because someone wants to attack you enemies especially when your enemies will probably thank you by attacking you and trying to wipe you out.

And there is no scenario in the game where Legion or the Geth VI wants to upload the code to kill Quarians.  They want to upload the code because they want to improve themsleves.  The only reason the Quarians die is because they refuse to stand down and they continue to fire.  They are killed in SELF DEFENSE as the Geth RETURN fire.  So you argument is simply incorrect here.  Anytime in the game the Quarians stop firing on defenseless Geth, peace is achieved.  100% of the time.

Legion was sent to find Shepard not deal with Heretics.  He states this clearly in ME2.  That is why he is wearing Shep's armor.  Finally,  choosing to exterminate either group based on whether Tali or Legion live is pretty silly. 

Modifié par remydat, 07 avril 2013 - 08:00 .

[Phatose]

Khelish wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

It's still beyond stupid of the Geth to build it in the Quarian home system.

... Especially when they knew the Quarians would return in time.

It's like asking for the war in ME3.

Last I checked, it was also the Geth's home system.

And uh...you mean like how it was stupid for everyone to build in the Reaper's home Galaxy, especially when they knew the Reapers would return in time for the war in ME3?